TFR inside Class B?

[Mike M]

Seems odd due to my lack of knowledge and experience. A TFR was issued restricting airspace access to aircraft with clearance from ZKC center. INSIDE a Class B area where ATC clearance is already required. So y'gotta get a clearance to get a clearance, Clarence?

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html

[FlyingRon]

This is not the first time I've seen this. When W visited the building next to mine (we're entirely within the IAD surface area) they had a similar TFR (oddly enough centered on a nearby major intersection about a half a mile away and NOT where he was giving his speech). In this case, the rules for entering the TFR much more stringent than just a class B clearance.

[dusterpilot]

ATC controls entrance into the class B and handles traffic in normal flows. ATC doesn't care about what's going on on the ground in their airspace. The TFR was issued by law enforcement to keep the news helicopters out of the Ferguson area where the night thugs are performing for the cameras. It also allows the police helicopters to fly over the area without having to worry about all the other helicopters hovering in the area in their way. If the media stopped covering the thugs, the violence would diminish because they wouldn't have an audience.

[Mayhemxpc]

The week after AirVenture, the entire DC SFRA became a TFR during the Africa Leader's summit. What it effectively did was prohibit all of that terrorist prone VFR general aviation flying...and nothing else. (With that posted, all I have to do is wait for the NSA to forward this to another three letter agency and wait for the visit...)

[FlyingRon]

Actually, all the recent DC TFR did was shut down the FRZ and some of the special egress rules for some of the fringe airports other than Leesburg. The normal SFRA procedures (including the special rules for JYO) remained in effect.

[Bill Greenwood]

Dusterpilot,
Do you really think that if there were no news helicopters flying over the town, that the parents of Michael Brown would forget that they had an 18 year old son who would be in college today if not shot 8 times by police?
And as for the ones you call thugs, this young man had no criminal record of any kind before being shot.

[FlyingRon]

I don't think he was describing Michael Brown as a thug but rather the rioters/looters that have moved in the aftermath.

[Mike M]

ATC controls entrance into the class B and handles traffic in normal flows. ATC doesn't care about what's going on on the ground in their airspace. The TFR was issued by law enforcement to keep the news helicopters out of the Ferguson area where the night thugs are performing for the cameras. It also allows the police helicopters to fly over the area without having to worry about all the other helicopters hovering in the area in their way.

Law enforcement doesn't issue TFRs, FAA does if needed. Since entry to Class B requires a clearance and this TFR is entirely within the Class B, then denying entry to Class B does exactly what the TFR does. So who got paid extra to do what accomplishes nothing more than "remain clear of Class B" does?

[FlyingRon]

No it doesn't. ATC's job is not to keep you out of P areas and TFRs. While separation services between aircraft is provided by ATC in class B, it's incumbent on you to watch where you're going.

[Mayhemxpc]

Actually, all the recent DC TFR did was shut down the FRZ and some of the special egress rules for some of the fringe airports other than Leesburg. The normal SFRA procedures (including the special rules for JYO) remained in effect.
In addition to shutting down the DC 3 airports, it also prohibited VFR pattern operations throughout the SFRA, which hurt local flight schools. All things considered, I really wonder what the national security imperative was to implement a measure which limited anyone's freedom of movement and restricted free trade. (I know what the event was, which really only makes me more curious.) Restricting freedom of movement was more severe on the ground in DC, but that is another subject. More to the point of this thread, what was the benefit that was not already realized through existing Class B airspace rules and especially the SFRA?

[dusterpilot]

I don't think he was describing Michael Brown as a thug but rather the rioters/looters that have moved in the aftermath.
Bill, FlyingRon is correct. My comments do not apply to Michael Brown's family, friends or supporters. THEY are not the ones causing the problems. Most of the looters are from other areas, coming in to use Brown as an excuse to loot or cause trouble. Most of the Ferguson residents are doing exactly the opposite--they are out there during the day trying to clean the place up and calm the situation. During the problems after dark, the reporters will tell you the crazies are attracted to the cameras. The State Police are taking control tonight. Hopefully, calm will return soon for the safety of everyone there and the time necessary for due process will bring justice. Unfortunately, Mike Brown's life was lost and many will suffer forever.

I failed to mention earlier that the TFR is there not only to keep the news helicopters out of the area thus giving the police helicopters ease of flight, but also to protect those that would be flying in the area. The helicopters have been shot at from the ground in that area. The TFR effectively closes one of St. Louis Lambert International Airport's primary departure paths, thus limiting them to a one-runway operation. It's imperative that order is restored and air operations and life on the ground returns to normal. My prayers are with all involved.

[dusterpilot]

Law enforcement doesn't issue TFRs, FAA does if needed.
Well, sorta..... Technically, the FAA does issue the TFR at the request of law enforcement or other entities. In this case, if you read the TFR (http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html) you'll see the "Point of Contact" is the St. Louis County Police Department, with a phone # listed. They define the TFR and the FAA simply rubber stamps it and issues it as a NOTAM. The Point of Contact controls who may fly in it. Law enforcement anywhere can define a TFR.

According to FAA Air Traffic Operations orders, "Law enforcement activities that may warrant TFRs include, but are not limited to, situations where there is a direct hazard to aircraft (for example, shots fired at aircraft) or where the presence of aircraft could exacerbate the danger to personnel on the ground (for example, SWAT or other personnel moving into position, etc.).

(Not applicable to this TFR, but for a TFR at a major league baseball park, the local baseball team management is the point of contact who can authorize aircraft to fly within the TFR.)

[Bill Greenwood]

Dusterpilot, where I and the facts differ from what appears to be your perspctive, is that the person or group causing the violence was already there when this started. It's the police. In a town that is 2/3 Black, 3 of the 50 cops are Black. This situation reminds me of the old south of 50 years ago with the Klan in Alabama and Mississippi and Georgia. They don't seem to have any fire hoses or police dogs there, but that may still be to come.

Anyone who equates throwing a rock or breaking a window, if that has happened, with shooting an unarmed teenager as he ran away has a warped sense of justice. It is the cops who have roughed up and arrested reporters, even peacefully inside a building, not the group of people protesting, and the cops who have armored cars and machine guns pointed at unarmed people, even women, and who have used tear gas and maybe rubber bullets.

We all know that as bad as this looks and is, it is not the norm everywhere, even in the south, but it sure will paint the U S in a bad light it foreign media, who are on the scene.

[dusterpilot]

My intent in responding to this topic was to give a little bit of a local perspective, not to argue the points. Personally, I think the first shot, if during a tussle inside the car, "might" be found justified. It's also my opinion from what I've heard that multiple shots outside the car will be found to be a criminal act and will be punished, as it certainly should be. I'm willing to wait for the results of a thorough and complete investigation before allowing a mob lynching to take place.


...the person or group causing the violence was already there when this started. It's the police. ....In a town that is 2/3 Black, 3 of the 50 cops are Black.

I agree the racial imbalance in the police department needs to be fixed, but I disagree that the "person or group causing the violence....is the police." Most of the arrests have been out-of-towners. The local police and the local population have had a good relationship until last Saturday. The local police chief acted prudently and handed the investigation over to outside, independent investigators immediately. What you now have is a large presence of police from other municipalities dealing with a large group of demonstrators from other areas. They ALL need to go home! The local cops are not in charge and the local residents are trying to peacefully go to work, get their groceries, and live a normal life.


We all know that....it is not the norm everywhere, ....but it sure will paint the U S in a bad light in foreign media, who are on the scene.

I absolutely agree with you on that point.

[Mike M]

Well, sorta..... Technically, the FAA does issue the TFR at the request of law enforcement or other entities. In this case, if you read the TFR (http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_2599.html) you'll see the "Point of Contact" is the St. Louis County Police Department, with a phone # listed. They define the TFR and the FAA simply rubber stamps it and issues it as a NOTAM. The Point of Contact controls who may fly in it. Law enforcement anywhere can define a TFR.

According to FAA Air Traffic Operations orders, "Law enforcement activities that may warrant TFRs include, but are not limited to, situations where there is a direct hazard to aircraft (for example, shots fired at aircraft) or where the presence of aircraft could exacerbate the danger to personnel on the ground (for example, SWAT or other personnel moving into position, etc.).



Yep, I read the TFR. IMO, issuing this TFR was one more over escalation of the event, stoking the fire, telling people around the world that flights into Lambert Saint Louis INTERNATIONAL airport jeopardized their lives by proximity to a war zone, spotlighting a tragic but minor local event and transforming it into an escalating media circus which will be increasingly difficult to understand, repair, and recover from. It could have been handled quietly with a memo to the ATC facility saying, basically, "cops and EMS ok, everybody else denied Class Bravo clearance."

[FlyingRon]

Removing the provision that allowed an exception to squawk-and-talk for pattern work is not "SHUTTING DOWN VFR" as you alluded. Furhter, you'll not get anywhere arguing that it's restraining commerce as commerce could go on if they follow the SFRA procedures other than for the pattern-work exception. Yeah, I agree is SUCKS but we've been all over that. I was based at VKX on 9/11. It took me FIVE WEEKS to get my plane back after that and longer before I was allowed back in (I was in the first of the FRZ pilot). If you want to argue commerce. Talk to the guys who have business at these places.

[ssmdive]

Dusterpilot, where I and the facts differ from what appears to be your perspctive, is that the person or group causing the violence was already there when this started. It's the police. In a town that is 2/3 Black, 3 of the 50 cops are Black.

So what? Look at college graduation rates and you will see that not that many blacks get degrees compared to whites. And since you need a degree to get a job as a cop in most places it is not strange that there are more white cops than black cops. Next add in societal influences where inner city black kids are raised to think of the cops as 'pigs' and you can easily see why you would not want to grow up to be one.


This situation reminds me of the old south of 50 years ago with the Klan in Alabama and Mississippi and Georgia. They don't seem to have any fire hoses or police dogs there, but that may still be to come.

Ha, except the south 50 years ago people were fighting for equal rights, not a color TV.


Anyone who equates throwing a rock or breaking a window, if that has happened, with shooting an unarmed teenager as he ran away has a warped sense of justice.

Anyone that equates 6 nights of riots without having any facts as justice has a warped sense of justice. What good is having a riot? What good is encouraging black youths to riot in white neighborhoods?


It is the cops who have roughed up and arrested reporters, even peacefully inside a building, not the group of people protesting, and the cops who have armored cars and machine guns pointed at unarmed people, even women, and who have used tear gas and maybe rubber bullets.

We all know that as bad as this looks and is, it is not the norm everywhere, even in the south, but it sure will paint the U S in a bad light it foreign media, who are on the scene.

The cops would not have been there is there were not riots breaking out.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the militarization of the police. And I would love for the truth to come out and appropriate disciplinary action to be taken.... But firebombing a store is not justice. And to compare the civil rights situation to this is a massive stretch.

[Byron J. Covey]

I thought thet this was a forum about experimental aircraft and things aviation related.

[Mayhemxpc]

Ron,I was only trying to support the original theme of this string, that it doesn't seem to make much sense to have a TFR, especially under the conditions typical to these TFR's in airspace that is already pretty well controlled. And the combination of the SFRA and Class B is pretty well controlled already. I regret and apologize to any and all for anything that might have led anyone to believe I was making this into some sort of political debate. That was not my intent.

[Hal Bryan]

I thought thet this was a forum about experimental aircraft and things aviation related.

Agreed.

Bill, Dusterpilot, ssmdive - try to keep it on topic.

[Bob Dingley]

TFRs within Class B are not unique. The ninth anniversery of KATRINA will be this month. The New Orleans Class B TRACON radar was among the casualties and was soon replaced with two AWACS. Tower freq was the CTAF for a while. Tower was re-manned sometime on the second day. KMSY never closed. KNEW was flooded out for a while.


Of course, a disaster TFR was put in place. Air traffic picked up. You saw it all on TV. KMSY was not a problem if you stayed above 1500' & VFR. LTG Honere' took charge and he was most appreciated. Then the local radio stations began pushing for President Bush to visit to "see for himself." He did a flyover day one and I thought that any more than that would be an interferance.


My fears were realized and he caved to pressure and eventualy visited N.O. about five times. I was on duty for three of those.So now we had the Class B with a disaster TFR, and a Presidential TFR to boot. Oh yeah, the Presidential was a moving TFR centered on his motorcade. All the while,we pilots had urgent stuff to do and did not always get the required authorizations and discreet Xpndr codes. I'm guessing that there were enough TFR violations to keep a Fighter Wing busy with intercepts. But there was not a one. TFR enforcement would have only added to the carnival atmosphere. Thankfuly, it all came off incident free like we knew what we were doing


Please don't push the president to show up.


Bob

[Mayhemxpc]

1997 I was the Air Operations Director for the KY portion of the disaster response for the Ohio River floods. We got a TFR established for the same reasons as N.O. Louisville (Standiford) is only Class C, so the analogy is not quite same as for a an airport with Class B. Anyway, I flew up and back along the river either the day or the day after we got the TFR established. (My prerogative. I booked myself on the flight officially to get eyes on target. More, it was to keep myself from going stir crazy in air ops.) I was amazed at the number of near misses I had while trying to do the visual assessment. The other airplanes knew about the TFR because they came in low -- real low -- and turned their transponders off. I should mention that regardless of the TFR, the whole area was within the Mode C veil. The only plane Louisville Approach saw or was talking to along the river was me.

So much for the effectiveness of TFR's for that purpose.

But I am sure nothing like that would ever happen today. Pilots are much too responsible…right?

[Mike M]

Thank you, Bob and Chris, for the "been there done that" answers. Seems to confirm my suspicion about the reason for a TFR in Class B. Belt and suspenders and sometimes the trousers still fall down.