The Good and Bad and Other of Oshkosh 2014

[FlyingRon]

GOOD:

1. The mix of airshow acts was fresh and improved in my opinion. This is one of the first years I didn't feel like I was watching the same old thing I'd seen before in the past few eyars.
2. The Thunderbirds were neat, the crowd lines worked well, there were lots more children in attendance. All this was good in my opinion.
3. The commercial exhibits seem to be making a rebound though there were a lot of empty spaces in the buildings.

4. Food. Again improved this year. While still pricey, the variation and the quality is much improved. Hell, one breakfast alone from Major Golsby (Vintage Cafe or the North 40 Cafe) can last you all day.

BAD:

1. Basler. I practically had to throw myself in front of a fuel truck to get fuel. I had a tag on my prop in excess of two days and had asked at the fuel payment booth twice and when the driver was fueling somewhere else to please fuel my plane and it still didn't help. They also have not yet returned my call left with their answering machine.

2. Port-o-lets. I don't know if the EAA is intentionally shafting the campers but many of the usual port-o-let quantities were not present though some reapeared (to a limited extent) later in the show.

3. Garmin. What a bunch of louts. They seem to have abandoned avionics sales and gone over to competing with GoPro. Hard to get any information out of a salesman and when my wife (having been previously ignored) started plugging away at one of their 650 demo units, she was pushed aside without even an "excuse me" by some sales droid who wanted to see something on the 530 that was also in that pod.

OTHER:

1. Trams. They changed the tram terminuses in a way that seemed to make little sense. However at the old terminus by the tower they did have signs that told you where to stand for the tram you wanted.

2. Weather. Cool weather was a welcome relief from oppressive heat, but the torrential downpours wiped out a couple of the shows.

[Mayhemxpc]

+1 on the goods and others. Had no reason to go to the Garmin tent so I will take your word on that. Overall, I had good experience with the vendors (with what limited time I could spend with them. Redbird in particular was very nice, and surprisingly uncrowded.

I would like to add the One Week Wonder in the GOOD column. To think that an airplane that my family helped build (along with about 2500 other people) actually flew is kind of scary. (On Monday, you could actually pull several rivets and set and remove clecos. An option not available later in the week.)

Sorry that I did not link up with you. I came back later in the week and couldn't find your plane. My wife and your wife did link up during the teachers' workshop. (Which my wife insists on adding to the GOOD column for AirVenture this year.)

[Jim Rosenow]

Good...

The weather...awesome!... at least thru Thursday noon-ish when we left.

Infrastructure- The trams/North 40 shuttles were like clockwork. Five minutes waiting at a stop saves uncounted steps...kudos! Toilets/showers clean and available up North. Water generally available everywhere for filling bottles.

Garmin- Had good experiences at their tent and in the building. Picked up a couple of cables and hit a couple seminars. Visited with our regional sales rep, who we met at a seminar earlier this year. Totally agree their displays were swamped with people tho.

Basler- Put the sign on the prop Wednesday afternoon, had fuel two hours later that was cheaper than at our home FBO. We were located in camping North of 9/27.


Less than optimum...

The airshow- If I wanted a 'standard' airshow, I'd go to Cleveland or Dayton, both of which are close to home and excellent. Show me things unique to OSH! Enjoyed the STOL guys!

T-Birds involvement- We voted with our feet...err, wings.


As always, your mileage may vary!

Jim

[nigel hitchman]

Good-
the weather generally, at least upto Friday 2pm when we left
the vintage turnout, some really nice aircraft and lots of them
ultralights seemed to be more going on and more exhibitors down there than in recent years
Trams, seemed to work better and no need to change at hangar café. One gripe one wouldn't take us further than the ultralights at 1230 Friday saying they were already evacuating the area. So we got on a bus that took us there
Seaplanes, always fun there and great turnout mid week
homebuilts, lots of nice aircraft and even some new types and some interesting old ones

Bad
parts of the airshow and the way it is run, but that's another thread
Thunderbirds crowdline making photography of taxiing and take-off and landing aircraft very difficult thru the rows of parked aircraft
The T-Birds coming at all, we have so much unique at Oshkosh we don't need them
Warbirds- not bad, all very nice to see but I thought the turnout was quite a bit down especially fighters and after an excellent year last year
Announcers (except Steve Buss) why do they have to shout and be so loud and why do they keep referring to the "jumbotron" or whatever those big screens are called when most people cant see them and don't particularly want to see them
too many cars on the flightline and driving around the parking areas

overall a pretty good year with the exception of the airshow

[BeagleOne]

I wish they'd stop playing music when it's not accompanying an airshow act (I don't like having airshow acts set to music either, but obviously that's up to the performers, not me). The "filler" music is unnecessary and takes away from the noise of airplane engines, which is all the soundtrack the fly-in needs.

At least those ridiculous gigantic speakers from a few years ago are gone from the flightline. Glad they are gone.

[Mayhemxpc]

Good-

Warbirds- not bad, all very nice to see but I thought the turnout was quite a bit down especially fighters and after an excellent year last year

Overall numbers were down only slightly over the whole week. Thursday's numbers showed about 10% fewer warbird aircraft from the previous year, but between Friday and Saturday new arrivals made up for that, finishing with just about the same numbers as 2013. There were about 4 fewer P-51's than last year.

[lkorona]

GOOD:
1. KidVenture – third year in a row that my 10-year old daughter participated. Shelooks forward to it every year. Kudos to all the volunteers who make KidVenturepossible. It’s heartwarming to see so many kids get excited about aviation. That’sour future and EAA does an excellent job supporting efforts to get kidsinvolved in aviation.
2. TheThunderbirds were huge hit with my daughter, she insisted in seeing all there performances.Did not have any issue with the amended crowd lines.
3. Forums – Went to a number of excellent forums, learn alot of great information from a number of high quality presentations.
4. The commercial exhibits seem to be making a rebound, alot less empty spaces in the buildings than in years past. Every vendor Italked with reported high traffic and sales.
5. Food was OK. Only relied on the vendors for lunch, and found the variationand the quality acceptable.
6. Weather. Cooler was nice, but the afternoon torrentialdownpours put a damper on things.

BAD:
1. Basler. I had a tag on my prop in excess of two days (went back to the planeto retrieve something), never got fuel, and after asking at the fuel paymentbooth twice about fueling, never got conformation that I had been fueled. Whenit came time to leave, I noticed that the fuel tags were gone, but never beenfueled. Had to repeatedly call, for fuel before a truck came out.
2. Red Tram – new East end terminus made little sense preferred the oldterminus in Vintage. At least the signage in the transfer area by the tower didhave signs that told you where to stand for the tram you wanted to go west oreast bound.

[lkorona]

Forgot to mention the Wednesday night airshow and fireworks, excellent event, whole family enjoyed it.

Larry

[BeagleOne]

I liked that you no longer have to change trams at the Hangar Cafe. I didn't like that, once again, the tram routes bypassed the fly market/aeromart. There are a lot of cool vendors there and it's a shame that they're not on the tram route. Next year, why not have the red/blue route tram change point be at the SW corner of exhibit building D, next to the fly market?

[rbarkerjr]

GOOD:
1. KidVenture – third year in a row that my 10-year old daughter participated. Shelooks forward to it every year. Kudos to all the volunteers who make KidVenturepossible. It’s heartwarming to see so many kids get excited about aviation. That’sour future and EAA does an excellent job supporting efforts to get kidsinvolved in aviation.


I agree! Having a background in military aviation maintenance and inspection, I truly enjoyed sitting back and watching my son learn some new skills and find some new interests. He really enjoyed the avionics troubleshooting and is now thinking that might be a career path for him. Thanks to all of the hard working volunteers at KidVenture!

[Inspector Fenwick]

Thanks, EAA, for sharing The Yodeler with us once again. GREAT way to start the day.

[pkarmouche]

Weather: Great
Forums: Great
Exhibitors: Good. Except some who were being very exclusive (Cirrus, Honda to name a couple).
Airshow: Great
Fireworks: Best I've ever seen
Wall of Fire: AWESOME
Food: Needs improvement
Port-o-lets: Good except Sunday
Trams: Good, see other thread
Volunteers: THE BEST

Paul

[Bill Berson]

It was a great Airventure. I guess someone read my comments from last year and installed more water fountains. Good job!
I liked the the new Workshop/forum buildings also. Good job.
I really liked the Valdez STOL competition and the up close Valdez STOL flights at the ultralight field.
Maybe more up close flights of antiques at the ultralight field for next year?

[Larry Lyons]

Ditto Bill, really enjoyed the Valdez flyers at the ultra light field. No real complaints except having to spend hours in the rain Fri. due to getting kicked out of our camp site, but that is another thread. As always enjoy the show but we shortened it two days this year due to the camp accessibility restrictions.

L

[Byron J. Covey]

Good:
A&W soft serve ice cream.
Forums.
Homebuilders reviews.
Workshops.
Turnout of homebuilts and classics.
STOL demonstration.

OK:
Trams.
Commercial displays of aviation products.
Traffic flows.

Bad:
Thunderbirds. Please, never again.
Airshows.
Airshow announcers.
Handicap parking - early arrivals had to park the furthest away from the entry gate.
Non-aviation product vendors.
The concerts.

Continuing major problem:
Cars, trucks, and golf carts charging through the pedestrians. They should be totally banned from 0900 until 1900 hours.

[rdt7]

My group was there Sunday through Friday AM.

Good: Weather - perfect temps.
Night airshow
Volunteers! - what a group
Kenny Loggins concert
One-week wonder
NBAA tent - great place to sit and relax
North 40 camping
New vendor buildings vs. tents (e.g. Bendix King and Hartzell Engine Tech.)
Diesel engine displays (EPS, Continental)
Fair prices (camping, meals etc.)

Bad:
Nothing was really bad
Seemed to me there were fewer water fountains
North 40 buses get "clumped up" (none for 15 min. and then 3 at once)
Need more showers on North side of North 40
EAA Radio seems to have tried to duplicate commercial radio with meaningless chit-chat, etc. More good content please.

Another great AirVenture. I've been attending since 1978 and it's as good as ever - better is many ways.

[davevath]

The Bad
Golf Carts
I am a volunteer in the warbirds area and we do not allow golf carts in warbirds in review and surrounding area.
I had people tell me that they have a "everywhere pass" and they can go anywhere.
The EAA did try to shut down the carts in center square, but the people just drove around the barricades.

[BeagleOne]

I'd like to see smoking banned completely on the grounds. The grounds aren't that wide and it's not that much of an inconvenience to go outside a gate to smoke. I saw several people smoking outside the designated zones, but as a woman by myself, I don't feel comfortable confronting someone who's with a group of friends/family.

Curious where the Flying Magazine tent was, and Duggy.

[rbarkerjr]

Curious where the Flying Magazine tent was, and Duggy.

Me too. Didn't see the Commemorative Air Force tent either.

[martymayes]

I'd like to see smoking banned completely on the grounds. The grounds aren't that wide and it's not that much of an inconvenience to go outside a gate to smoke. I saw several people smoking outside the designated zones,

x2 and inconvenience or not, even a ban won't end smoking on the grounds.

[mazdaP5]

I really liked the Heritage logo patches, pins, t-shirts, and hats, stylish.

[Fastcapy]

I was disappointed with no Duggy. My kids LOVE Duggy and were he wasn't there. As for the flying tent, I asked them on Facebook and they said They decided to not have a resale tent at AirVenture this year, but I was welcome to buy from their website... myself and others in my group mentioned how many of the vendors were rude and some couldn't seem to get off their phones to talk to customers...

[Floatsflyer]

myself and others in my group mentioned how many of the vendors were rude and some couldn't seem to get off their phones to talk to customers...

There are some exhibitors who are rude and arrogant and treat their potential customers with disdain, dismissiveness and as if they have some contagious disease. My advice is to tell as many as possible about those negative experiences so that others will not do business with them.

I have had 2 bad experiences with major exhibitors at Oshkosh, Icon and Cubcrafters and have been quite vocal(emails to the respective CEO's) setting out my grievances.

These are exceptions though, as overall I find exhibitors to be courteous, attentive, cooperative and conduct themselves in a professional business-like manner. This year we made some major purchases for our plane and hangar including an electric tug. Dealing with the 2 vendors was such a pleasure that they deserve high praise and mention here: Priceless Aviation Products and Aircraft Spruce.

[Jim Rosenow]

There are some exhibitors who are rude and arrogant and treat their potential customers with disdain, dismissiveness and as if they have some contagious disease.

I have to wonder if the vendor's 'attitude' could be linked to the increasing percentage of non-aviation folks wandering thru the exhibit halls.....Back in the day (Lordy, here I go again!), if you were at OSH, by definition (and membership) you were a potential 'real' customer.

Listing specific vendors for us who stood out (positively) during the week.....

Dennis at the Whelen tent.....had a very educational conversation with him regarding the company/family ownership background. Got invited to their party on Saturday night (probably helped that we have 3 of their LED landing lights). Was happy to learn that each and every bit of Whelen aviation stuff (including components) is made in the U.S.

Paraphrenalia (Softie parachutes).....Spent 45 minutes to an hour with the two guys and ordered a chute. Julie Clark (a customer) stopped by and chatted while we were there.

Gulf Coast Avionics.....had the best prices we could find on the field for 3 ANR headsets, and in stock at the show.

Overal we found the aviation vendors (don't even look at the other stuff) positive, except for some grumbling about the booth pricing structure.

Jim

[Fastcapy]

I know not all vendors were being jerks. MGL was very helpful, as was AeroLEDs. Of course Spruce was good as usual. Along with a bunch of others I talked with.

However, it seemed that there were a lot more jerks than years past. The Aveo guy was not friendly, same for the windsock guy. The Tecnam Aircraft guy couldn't even stop texting long enough to listen to my questions. The best was the one guy from a parts supplier, I already forgot the name, was not only rude but obnoxious and insulting as well. I outright told him he was a jerk.

[jjhoneck]

This was our 32nd OSH. It was wonderful, as always, and we are already making planes for OSH 15.

That said, there are always areas of improvement:

1. Rutted N40. Ever since Sloshkosh ripped up the field, everything is rutted on the taxiways and parts of the N40. The area needed to be rolled multiple times after a heavy rain before the show. We had to taxi our RV-8A at walking speed, for fear of a prop strike.

2. WiFi. It was pathetic, as always. We ended up setting up a hot spot with my 4G phone most days, which worked just fine. Either do Wifi right, or save the money and skip it entirely.

3. Electric scooters. I'm sure we all remember when scooters were for handicapped people. Now, it seems, the majority of them are used by obese people who can't be bothered with walking. After one of these jerks almost ran over my wife's foot in one of the exhibition hangars, I came close to decking him. There was no apology, or even an "excuse me" from most of these folks.

We even saw an entire family on them, as if they were go karts. The use of these things MUST be limited to those who qualify for a handicapped parking sticker, before someone gets hurt.

4. Golf carts. The ban on golf carts at airshow center was widely ignored. By the end of the week, bone weary after walking 35+ miles, we simply refused to let them pass. If they wanted to proceed, they had to go to the effort of steering around us, because we were tired of light-footing it out of their oh-so-important way all week. I would estimate we had a golf cart incursion every 1/10th to 1/4 mile of walking, so using 35 miles, we had between 120 and 350 encounters with the damned things, over the course of a week.

We've been saying this for over a decade now: This is EAA's top priority to fix on the grounds. I'm astounded that no one has been hurt or killed by these things.

(I live on an island where golf cart travel is the norm. Every year, tourists are seriously hurt, and every other year someone dies on them. They are fun, but not toys, and mixing them with 10,000 pedestrians is a recipe for disaster.)

5. Still no arrival photos. If EAA contracted with four photographers to take pics of every arrival, and put them up on the EAA website (in low res, of course) for purchase, they would make a freaking fortune. Every pilot I've mentioned this idea to has said they would buy a copy in a heartbeat, because flying into Oshkosh during the convention is such a badge of honor amongst pilots.

I can't believe EAA continues to miss this trick, year in and year out.

All this said, 2014 was a great show, probably the best ever! We are counting the days till EAA Oshkosh 2015!

[Mayhemxpc]

I try to be very upbeat about EAA and AirVenture. EAA is a great organization, I respect the job Jack Pelton has done, and my family and I think that AirVenture tops the list of vacation spots. (Well, my oldest son prefers Disneyworld, but that is because he is not paying for it.)

There are, however, some things that are becoming a serious distraction. The top of that list is the explosion of vehicles on the grounds. I and at least one other person mentioned elsewhere that it was not just golf carts on Boeing Plaza. On Friday and Saturday there was a full size Chrysler doing a very good impression of a very bad Florida driver stereotype. The golf carts are everywhere. I believe that most of the drivers are courteous and trying to drive responsibly. It only takes a percentage of the other kind and the more carts you have (increased exposure) the greater number of irresponsible actors and potential for harm. For the sake of safety and the reputation of EAA and the air show, something must be done.

The trams run well, frequently, and are about as handicap accessible as a gold cart. I admit that there is some need for AirVenture staff to be able to quickly move from spot to spot, but I don’t think as great a need as the number of staff vehicles indicate. Vendor carts appear to be a perk that is inappropriate. If vendors need to move materials around, they should do so after hours. Private use should be dictated by ADA requirements that cannot be met through other transportation. Note that I am not talking about powered chairs for the disabled (although those can be a real safety hazard, too.)

Now for the hammer. We know that EAA leadership reads these posts. There have been many posts about the danger of the proliferation of carts from people who are generally supportive of EAA management. Therefore, EAA leadership and AirVenture management has been made aware of a potential liability. When…not if, but when something happens, they cannot plead ignorance of the hazard.

On a different topic, I didn’t have the time to interact with many vendors. Those I did speak to were uniformly courteous and helpful. I make specific mention of the staff at ICOM, Aircraft Spruce, Gibson-Barnes, Redbird, and Bendix-King.

Oh, I would DEFINITELY pay (a reasonable amount) for a picture of my plane landing at AirVenture.

Chris Mayer
N424AF

[JimRice85]

The bad was I had to cancel my plans to attend this year. Flew my Cub up in 2012 and had a blast. I used an electric scooter which made my attendance possible. I'm a disabled vet having suffered a badly broken back and left ankle. I can walk for normal activities, but could never make it through OSH walking. Looking at me, I'm sure most folks wondered why I was riding rather walking. Sometime things aren't as the appear.

[jjhoneck]

The bad was I had to cancel my plans to attend this year. Flew my Cub up in 2012 and had a blast. I used an electric scooter which made my attendance possible. I'm a disabled vet having suffered a badly broken back and left ankle. I can walk for normal activities, but could never make it through OSH walking. Looking at me, I'm sure most folks wondered why I was riding rather walking. Sometime things aren't as the appear.
As we all understand, not all disabilities are obvious. If you have a handicapped parking sticker issued by the State, no one will begrudge your right to a scooter.

Frankly, if you can fold yourself in and out of a freaking Cub, you're doing better than me -- and my back is fine! :D

That all said, if you run over my wife's foot in Building C, there could be trouble... ;)

[scuba72]

I have a 99% approval of Airventure this year. Transportation was great even though they did bunch up at times. I'm never in a hurry, so I just waited till an empty bus or tram showed up. Was offered a ride in a golf cart at least twice a day. As far as the air shows, I could care less. I don't watch them unless some thing interests me and that isn't too often. Thunderbird drew a whole lot of revenue for the EAA. If they want them again, go for it. Vendors that I saw interest in were very helpful. My kudos to Hartwig Fuel Cells and Hi-Fold door.

Now for the 1% bad. Non aviation vendors. Not the ones in the fly market, but the ones in the hangers. They should be on the midway at a fair, not Airventure. When I walked through the hangers it seemed like every turn some one jumped out and tried to have me try their pain relief device or wanted to clean my glasses. I got so fed up after a couple of days that I told one of them to put the device on himself because he was the only pain I was feeling. He seemed kind of confused. A couple days later I told one of them if I could drop my drawers and have him stick it on my derriere that he should vanish from my eyes. Again I don't think he understood my meaning.

EAA, I know you are in the business of making money, but keep them type of exhibitors out of the main hangers and move them to the fly market where they belong.

Dave in Missouri

[hatz672]

I'm with you 100%. We were south of airshow center near the former Hangar Cafe. Both night airshows, the friggin' music was louder than the fireworks. Note to whoever is running the PA system: Those are public address speakers. They have a limit and whatever you are driving them is more than they are capable of handling. The speakers are pretty much just buzzing. I'm at OSH to hear airplane noise.

[FlyingRon]

1. Rutted N40. Ever since Sloshkosh ripped up the field, everything is rutted on the taxiways and parts of the N40. The area needed to be rolled multiple times after a heavy rain before the show. We had to taxi our RV-8A at walking speed, for fear of a prop strike.

Most of the Airventure grounds is a hayfield in the offseason. They switched to using a very heavy reaper/bailer machine and for practical purposes it runs perpendicular to the rows causing bad rutting any year it's the least bit soft (which includes this year and last).



2. WiFi. It was pathetic, as always. We ended up setting up a hot spot with my 4G phone most days, which worked just fine. Either do Wifi right, or save the money and skip it entirely.

Every year I bitch about no wifi in Vintage and the EAA IT guys swear it works, then I tell them I'm behind the Hangar Cafe and then they admit that it will never work there because they put some piece of junk consumer grade thing that will never be upgraded.
[

5. Still no arrival photos. If EAA contracted with four photographers to take pics of every arrival, and put them up on the EAA website (in low res, of course) for purchase, they would make a freaking fortune. Every pilot I've mentioned this idea to has said they would buy a copy in a heartbeat, because flying into Oshkosh during the convention is such a badge of honor amongst pilots.

Vintage shoots every plane that arrives and if you're a member you get a plaque with the picture. Lobby custom and the north 40 for the same concession.

[Paul Chandler]

Best bit was the night airshow / fireworks on Wednesday.
Food on offer was fine - ate at the subway in homebuilt area which was fine - girls there were very good.

Worst was the revised crowd lines for Thunderbirds. It would have been better to allow the normal crowd line to be available for the warbird show then a break to get people to move back. Or put the Tbirds on first and then open the crowdline. To me having the crowdline where it was for the entire show was a poor decision and certainly spolt any photography opportunites on those days for departure shots as the aircraft are far closer than the display line they use.

Also agree with the comments about golf carts - even saw people texting whlst driving them.
Toilets did seem to be kept clean etc but did run out of water very quickly

Already looking forward to 2015.

[Bob Meder]

As chairman of an organization that has a booth and an event at the show, some of us rent a house on the west side of town and "commute" to the grounds. In years past, I have been nearly reduced to apoplexy trying to figure out why "they" couldn't get the traffic in and out of the field ("We're gonna be late to the booth!" and "We're gonna be late to meet our sponsor at the restaurant!"). And it didn't seem to matter what time we started out.

This year - wow! Traffic moved, quickly and efficiently, even the 0830 (we were late after breakfast at Perkins) congestion at 20th street. Kudos to the city, the police, and EAA for improving this!

[L16 Pilot]

While I'm probably in the minority I could care less about the WiFi. I even shut my cell phone off at times so I'm not distracted but I know some folks (including my kids) that almost panic if they can't get the internet, facebook or whatever.

[jjhoneck]

Most of the Airventure grounds is a hayfield in the offseason. They switched to using a very heavy reaper/bailer machine and for practical purposes it runs perpendicular to the rows causing bad rutting any year it's the least bit soft (which includes this year and last).


Every year I bitch about no wifi in Vintage and the EAA IT guys swear it works, then I tell them I'm behind the Hangar Cafe and then they admit that it will never work there because they put some piece of junk consumer grade thing that will never be upgraded.
[
Vintage shoots every plane that arrives and if you're a member you get a plaque with the picture. Lobby custom and the north 40 for the same concession.
The plaque from Vintage is cool (my son got one the year he flew our 'Coupe in), but that's not what I mean. I want an action shot of my plane flaring to land on RWY 27. Or three or four shots -- I'd buy them all.

Heck, the Cherokee Pilots Association did this at their national fly-in 13 years ago, made a gob of money -- and they were using film cameras! Imagine how simple this would be today, with digital cameras.

Given the number of amateur photographers I see at OSH each year, I suspect this would be a pretty simple deal. Heck, you could probably automate the whole process with a motion detector.

I bet EAA would gross $100K+ on such a venture. Figure 10,000 planes, ten bucks a picture. Who wouldn't buy it?

[L16 Pilot]

Last year I had my wing mounted Go Pro fired up and ready to do the whole shot from Fisk into approach and landing on 36. I got so involved in watching for traffic, etc. I forgot to turn the remote on....... until I was on the ground. Very unhappy to say the least. Didn't fly in this year due to weather.

[Byron J. Covey]

While I'm probably in the minority I could care less about the WiFi. I even shut my cell phone off at times so I'm not distracted but I know some folks (including my kids) that almost panic if they can't get the internet, facebook or whatever.

Same here; however, we need to attract younger people, and they expect functional WiFi.

[jjhoneck]

Same here; however, we need to attract younger people, and they expect functional WiFi.
Thankfully, the cell companies did an admirable job of bringing in extra cell towers. 4G coverage was excellent, which enabled us to set up WiFi hot spots as needed.

[Mayhemxpc]

The WiFi problem was really a serious issue. Unlike years past, this year, EAA promoted their app that had all of the forums, workshops, twitter feeds, etc. The problem was that you needed internet connectivity to make it function. My personal experience is that is seemed significantly harder to get a good wifi link than it was last year, even when right next to a hotspot. I am going to assume that they increased capacity over last year, anticipating greater use through both the greater use across the board of internet apps and because they were promoting use of their own app. Regardless, capacity did not come close to meeting demand. As a result, beginning on Monday, I found the EAA app to be worse than useless.

Agree that cell phone reception was excellent throughout. (Which meant no valid excuses for not responding at work email…other than, "I am on vacation!")

[FlyingRon]

Thankfully, the cell companies did an admirable job of bringing in extra cell towers. 4G coverage was excellent, which enabled us to set up WiFi hot spots as needed.

Not my experience. ATT, Verizion, and T-Moblile all crapped out as the crowds started to arrive.

[Fastcapy]

I agree. Between my wife, brother, and half a dozen friends, all with different phones and carriers, we could not get wifi anywhere on the grounds. 4G data was hard to connect to and 3G was even sketchy most of the time.

As others have said the wifi was disappointing to say the least.

My voice coverage and text messaging was fine however.

I wonder if the "gray trailer" had anything to do with a data bottleneck maybe causing or magnifying the problems.

[Byron J. Covey]

Most of the Airventure grounds is a hayfield in the offseason. They switched to using a very heavy reaper/bailer machine and for practical purposes it runs perpendicular to the rows causing bad rutting any year it's the least bit soft (which includes this year and last).


Every year I bitch about no wifi in Vintage and the EAA IT guys swear it works, then I tell them I'm behind the Hangar Cafe and then they admit that it will never work there because they put some piece of junk consumer grade thing that will never be upgraded.
[


That explains the ruts, but does not excuse them.

Excellent WiFi is expected by the younger generations that EAA and the rest of GA need to attract.

[Cardinal729]

Would definitely pay for a photo. Beautiful landing on the green dot this year too!

[Jetguy]

I was there Monday thru Friday. I had a Sprint phone and a ATT Lite capable Ipad. I tried everyday at multiple locations from the north 40 to the south 40 to Paul's Woods and was never able to connect to the EAA WiFi. I would suggest EAA get a refund.:( However both the phone and the Ipad worked great on the cell network.:cool:

[BeagleOne]

I'm still waiting and hoping for the return of the Eisenhower jacket! I like seeing all of the new merchandise with the vintage logo on it...but I want a jacket!:D

[Bill Greenwood]

What no wi-fi at Oshkosh? There's no reason to even fly all the way there and spend all that money then is there?
You could just stay home and play with your cell phone and ipad. Wouldn't that be fun and not have to walk a long ways or worry about waiting in lunch lines or tram ride lines or jet noise or water that costs a dollar more per bottle than back home.

I admit to being a bit older and maybe a lot more old fashioned than perhaps some on this forum or at EAA, and I don't own or know how to work an ipad or most of the electro gizmos.
But I have been coming to Osh since 1984, before there was any cell phones or wi fi to bitch about and I had a great time back then and every year since.
Did you ever notice the airplanes at Osh or try playing with them instead of the little gadgets? Is that a radical and old fashioned idea?

I am lucky enough to have flown into Osh many years in one of the best flying, best looking, and most historic, and overall greatest planes to ever visit Osh and I have loved it, in my ignorance. I just realized that while it has probably the best wing ever put on an airplane and one of the best engines, but I must be missing out all these years since it doesn't have any cell phones or ipad or computers or wi fis in it at all. It just flys.

Maybe when I get too old and too jaded to fly, I can buy all those cool gadgets to bring to Oshkosh and complain about how they don't work as well as they do in some other more boring location.

And maybe I am seeing it only from the point of view of a pilot/owner and if I didn't have an airplane, the gadgets would be the next best substitute.

[1600vw]

What no wi-fi at Oshkosh? There's no reason to even fly all the way there and spend all that money then is there?
You could just stay home and play with your cell phone and ipad. Wouldn't that be fun and not have to walk a long ways or worry about waiting in lunch lines or tram ride lines or jet noise or water that costs a dollar more per bottle than back home.

I admit to being a bit older and maybe a lot more old fashioned than perhaps some on this forum or at EAA, and I don't own or know how to work an ipad or most of the electro gizmos.
But I have been coming to Osh since 1984, before there was any cell phones or wi fi to bitch about and I had a great time back then and every year since.
Did you ever notice the airplanes at Osh or try playing with them instead of the little gadgets? Is that a radical and old fashioned idea?

I am lucky enough to have flown into Osh many years in one of the best flying, best looking, and most historic, and overall greatest planes to ever visit Osh and I have loved it, in my ignorance. I just realized that while it has probably the best wing ever put on an airplane and one of the best engines, but I must be missing out all these years since it doesn't have any cell phones or ipad or computers or wi fis in it at all. It just flys.

Maybe when I get too old and too jaded to fly, I can buy all those cool gadgets to bring to Oshkosh and complain about how they don't work as well as they do in some other more boring location.

And maybe I am seeing it only from the point of view of a pilot/owner and if I didn't have an airplane, the gadgets would be the next best substitute.

Times are a changing. If you do not change with them this new generation will just leave you behind. Don't be surprised when you are the only one standing in a field of airplanes. Sure you will have your other old timers there with you but none of the younger ones. Eventually there will be no one.

Does this sound at all familiar.

[Bill Greenwood]

I never took a Young Eagle for a ride and had them get out afterwards and say, "That was okay, but not as cool as my ipad."

[Jim Rosenow]

I have to agree with Bill, even tho he's a short-timer (only since '84?) :-)

I just don't see the big deal about wifi. Most any phone or phone-connected tablet can be your personal wifi portal if you choose to do so. "I'm going to spend a week camping under my wing (or in my camper) in a hay field with no electricity" seems somewhat at odds with "but there'd better dang well be super-fast wifi". My opinion only, of course.

Young people at OSH....my perception is that the young people who 'get' aviation will be there, with or without camper electricity, wifi, or concerts. Those who don't, I'm happy to have them leave me behind. They have no idea what they're missing. It's a choice.

A scenario for those whose who absolutely require wifi.... There's a place where you have wifi, probably a comfortable chair, the food choices vary according to your particular tastes, and (bonus) there are no travel expenses involved to get there. Paul and Todd do a tremendous job of providing a vicarious visit to OSH via the webcams.

Jim
EAA 64315 (1/1/71)

[L16 Pilot]

I've never understood that some folks have such an obsession with electronic gadgets. Granted I'm typing this on a computer but I'm doing it along with eating my dinner. In a bit I will go back to my shop and work on my project plane......no phone, no wifi, nothing except the radio which I often shut off because I like the peace and quiet. I do have a cell phone and I used it once to tell my wife I made it safely to Oshkosh. In my previous life I was a technical college teacher (since retired) and I can't imagine trying to teach a class under the present conditions when students think texting is more important than information you're trying to teach.

[Bill Berson]

The Wifi is nice for keeping up on what is happening at Oshkosh. They have it, it works sometimes. The only question is why doesn't it work better?

[psvinny]

I must be a lucky one because I control my phone and Kindle fire. I don't let them control me. The few times I preferred WIFI, I was always able to find it. Maybe I had to walk over a row in camp Scholler but I found it. The WIFI buildings are a very nice touch and I agree with Jim that Paul and Todd do an awesome job with their systems. I wonder how much it would cost to cover every inch of 2000 acres with WIFI.

[jjhoneck]

You guys are funny. Evolve, people! Evolve! ;)

This was my 32nd consecutive year at OSH. I, too, remember the time before cell phones and tablets. In fact, when they first came out, we actively made sure that we kept them OFF at all times, so as not to interfere with the OSH experience.

Then, something funny started to happen. First, my smartphone replaced my camera. Now, I *had* to keep it on, so I could take pictures.

Then, my smartphone replaced my video camera. Ditto, above.

Then, I started asking my phone for information on the plane I was looking at. Yes, you can ASK your phone about a specific make of plane -- or even about a specific plane. It's amazing, having the compiled history of aviation available at all times.

Then, I started instantly uploading my pictures from OSH, so that friends and family at home could participate.

And so on. This year, we used the Airventure app to show our position on a map of the grounds, and the location(s) of stuff we wanted to see, like forums and exhibitors. It was terrific.

At no point have these devices detracted from the Oshkosh experience. In fact, they have enhanced it. You guys need to embrace this new technology for the wonder it truly is.

Fortunately, with 4G cellular coverage, all of this worked well. Unfortunately, at OSH this used up our expensive data plan at a breathtaking rate -- which is why we are clamoring for better WiFi. I figure OSH added around $60 to my cell bill last month. Multiply that times the thousands of attendees, and you can see that better WiFi would save EAA members a ton of $$$$.

It's a brave, new world! :)

[1600vw]

You guys are funny. Evolve, people! Evolve! ;)

This was my 32nd consecutive year at OSH. I, too, remember the time before cell phones and tablets. In fact, when they first came out, we actively made sure that we kept them OFF at all times, so as not to interfere with the OSH experience.

Then, something funny started to happen. First, my smartphone replaced my camera. Now, I *had* to keep it on, so I could take pictures.

Then, my smartphone replaced my video camera. Ditto, above.

Then, I started asking my phone for information on the plane I was looking at. Yes, you can ASK your phone about a specific make of plane -- or even about a specific plane. It's amazing, having the compiled history of aviation available at all times.

Then, I started instantly uploading my pictures from OSH, so that friends and family at home could participate.

And so on. This year, we used the Airventure app to show our position on a map of the grounds, and the location(s) of stuff we wanted to see, like forums and exhibitors. It was terrific.

At no point have these devices detracted from the Oshkosh experience. In fact, they have enhanced it. You guys need to embrace this new technology for the wonder it truly is.

Fortunately, with 4G cellular coverage, all of this worked well. Unfortunately, at OSH this used up our expensive data plan at a breathtaking rate -- which is why we are clamoring for better WiFi. I figure OSH added around $60 to my cell bill last month. Multiply that times the thousands of attendees, and you can see that better WiFi would save EAA members a ton of $$$$.

It's a brave, new world! :)

You stated this better then I ever could. Its a new world for sure. The young ones do not want to do things like we did.

[Floatsflyer]

++1 with Bill and Jim.

I don't give a s**t about wifi or cell reception at Oshkosh. I can easily wait to get back to my hotel to make/answer calls or go online. The connected new world does not define me nor does it motivate me or make me less creative. I do not belong to any old fashioned world or notions...I simply do not find any necessity to be constantly connected like everyone else. In fact, I think it's very cool to be disconnected and unavailable. I got along perfectly well with and in the world prior to cell phones and the internet, LIKE ALL OF US ON THIS PLANET and I refuse to become addicted to or dependent upon inanimate objects.

I have never been a gadget guy or had found it necessary to have the latest and greatest of anything. Aviation has been in my blood and brain since almost birth so if there are things out there that can make flying easier, safer, lessen the workload, make it more comfortable and at the same time allow me to get over the intimidation factor of all things electronic and all things with one inch thick instruction manuals then I'll seriously consider them for aviation.

I have been a steam gauges guy for all of my 41 years of flying. I retired at the end of June(I turned 65 at Oshkosh this year but I look(honest) 15-20 years younger-great inherited genes and the same attitude and spirit of when I was 22). In anticipation of this milestone event, my aircraft partner and I bought a new plane 4 months previous with G1000(that was scary for me) but I'm learning it. Then I got an I-Pad Air for the Foreflight program(bought when they announced last year they now had all Canadian charts and directories) and then I got an I-Phone 5S to back up the I-Pad in case it screws the pooch(I was long overdue anyway for an upgrade of my former cell phone which I had for about 10 years and only used to be connected to my wife and family). At Oshkosh I got a new headset with bluetooth and noise cancelling because it was a very good deal and I thought it was hightime to upgrade my 29 year old DC's. So now I'm as connected as any 14 year old BUT it's only for the purposes of flying.

Next year at Oshkosh I still will not give a s**t if wifi or cell reception is working well or not.

[1600vw]

Imagine if we had some of this stuff as kids or young people do today. But I myself do not use a smart phone but I do have a LCD tv. I don't have a tablet but have a Laptop. I will never understand the Tablet or Ipad whatever you call it. But I understand those who use them and like them. Just not for me. But when I found I could use one in my airplane, now I start liking this thing called a tablet. Still do not own one.

I like not being tied to a phone. I kinda laugh when I see someone walking around with a phone sticking out of their ear. Really you have to have the phone that bad. My life is more simple. If you want to talk with me call me at home, if I am not home leave a message. Keeps life simple.

Tony

[Mayhemxpc]

I wonder how much it would cost to cover every inch of 2000 acres with WIFI. Many major airports are now completely covered with free public access wifi...which I always seem to be able to access and does not drop once I am in. I have read that there are 110 municipalities in the U.S. with citywide WiFi that is open to the public for Internet access. I can't remember, is the AirVenture WiFi limited to EAA members? If not, that would be a good interim way to address saturation (if saturation is the problem.) NOTE: I also -- for the first time ever -- exceeded my data plan (not me so much as my three sons -- OK, me too.)

[1600vw]

++1 with Bill and Jim.

I don't give a s**t about wifi or cell reception at Oshkosh. I can easily wait to get back to my hotel to make/answer calls or go online. The connected new world does not define me nor does it motivate me or make me less creative. I do not belong to any old fashioned world or notions...I simply do not find any necessity to be constantly connected like everyone else. In fact, I think it's very cool to be disconnected and unavailable. I got along perfectly well with and in the world prior to cell phones and the internet, LIKE ALL OF US ON THIS PLANET and I refuse to become addicted to or dependent upon inanimate objects.

I have never been a gadget guy or had found it necessary to have the latest and greatest of anything. Aviation has been in my blood and brain since almost birth so if there are things out there that can make flying easier, safer, lessen the workload, make it more comfortable and at the same time allow me to get over the intimidation factor of all things electronic and all things with one inch thick instruction manuals then I'll seriously consider them for aviation.

I have been a steam gauges guy for all of my 41 years of flying. I retired at the end of June(I turned 65 at Oshkosh this year but I look(honest) 15-20 years younger-great inherited genes and the same attitude and spirit of when I was 22). In anticipation of this milestone event, my aircraft partner and I bought a new plane 4 months previous with G1000(that was scary for me) but I'm learning it. Then I got an I-Pad Air for the Foreflight program(bought when they announced last year they now had all Canadian charts and directories) and then I got an I-Phone 5S to back up the I-Pad in case it screws the pooch(I was long overdue anyway for an upgrade of my former cell phone which I had for about 10 years and only used to be connected to my wife and family). At Oshkosh I got a new headset with bluetooth and noise cancelling because it was a very good deal and I thought it was hightime to upgrade my 29 year old DC's. So now I'm as connected as any 14 year old BUT it's only for the purposes of flying.

Next year at Oshkosh I still will not give a s**t if wifi or cell reception is working well or not.

But keep doing the same old and you will get the same results. You want to draw in the younger crowed, you better think like one. Or you and I will be the only ones standing looking at a field of airplanes. Sure we will have all our gray haired friends with us, but no future in that.

How does it go...........Its the fool who keeps doing the same thing but wants or expects different results.

Tony

[Bill Berson]

Some of us don't go back to a hotel each night.

[Jim Rosenow]

The Wifi is nice for keeping up on what is happening at Oshkosh. They have it, it works sometimes. The only question is why doesn't it work better?

Could be bandwidth congestion due to changing expectations, Bill.... see JJHoneck's post. I suspect some folks were trying these things over wifi. It all takes $bandwidth$.

Jim
EAA64315

[Aaron Novak]

But keep doing the same old and you will get the same results. You want to draw in the younger crowed, you better think like one. Or you and I will be the only ones standing looking at a field of airplanes. Sure we will have all our gray haired friends with us, but no future in that.

How does it go...........Its the fool who keeps doing the same thing but wants or expects different results.

Tony

Unfortunately since the younger crowd was born into the current technology, they believe that they cannot function without it. Same is true of any technology with every generation. With this comes a self perceived level of importance on the technology and a lack of motivation to investigate previous technology. Industrial technology sometimes follows the same trends, sometimes in circles. I was standing next to a fellow that was getting sold a nice new shiny Tig welder, when he ran out from under the tent to watch a P-51 do a few passes. He came back in and made some remark about how that was the neatest prop driven airplane in his mind and about it "really scoots", all while handing over his credit card to get the one with all the buttons and lights on it. I stopped myself from asking him why, if he immortalized that aircraft to much, did he not use the technology it was built with on his own project, as obviously it had proven itself? I knew what the answer would be......"because this is what we use now", and it would be pointless. Imagine a kid in 5 years, they would never believe you could survive with a compass and paper, or analog gauges. Somehow we need to be able to embrace new technology, without the belief that we need to change. People say "well you need to keep up!" , my response usually is "Sorry, I like to check the direction im going before being concerned about my position in the pack".

[jjhoneck]

Some of us don't go back to a hotel each night.
My thoughts exactly. I'm on the field for 7+ days. The only time we leave is to ride our bikes to eat at Friar Tucks, Charcoal Pit, or La Sure's. Not only do I want WiFi for social media, I *need* cell service to be available to stay in touch with my business, 1300 miles away.

EAA nailed cell service this year -- it was great. WiFi...not so much.

[1600vw]

Unfortunately since the younger crowd was born into the current technology, they believe that they cannot function without it. Same is true of any technology with every generation. With this comes a self perceived level of importance on the technology and a lack of motivation to investigate previous technology. Industrial technology sometimes follows the same trends, sometimes in circles. I was standing next to a fellow that was getting sold a nice new shiny Tig welder, when he ran out from under the tent to watch a P-51 do a few passes. He came back in and made some remark about how that was the neatest prop driven airplane in his mind and about it "really scoots", all while handing over his credit card to get the one with all the buttons and lights on it. I stopped myself from asking him why, if he immortalized that aircraft to much, did he not use the technology it was built with on his own project, as obviously it had proven itself? I knew what the answer would be......"because this is what we use now", and it would be pointless. Imagine a kid in 5 years, they would never believe you could survive with a compass and paper, or analog gauges. Somehow we need to be able to embrace new technology, without the belief that we need to change. People say "well you need to keep up!" , my response usually is "Sorry, I like to check the direction im going before being concerned about my position in the pack".

You are preaching to the choir.

I said it before and will again, I don't even own a smart phone or tablet. But if the masses want this service to go to an event and that event does not supply said service, don't be surprised when your attendance numbers are down.

If you think this is bad now, just wait.

[Bill Berson]

Could be bandwidth congestion due to changing expectations, Bill.... see JJHoneck's post. I suspect some folks were trying these things over wifi. It all takes $bandwidth$.

Jim
EAA64315
But I didn't see anyone else nearby trying to use wifi. (Ultralight runway)
I walked all over trying to find the antenna, no luck.

[Jim Rosenow]

But I didn't see anyone else nearby trying to use wifi. (Ultralight runway)
I walked all over trying to find the antenna, no luck.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be someone nearby, Bill. My conjecture (educated guess) is that there are several wifi hot spots that end up at a wired router that provides the actual internet access. The congestion would be cumulative at the router. Again, this is only an educated guess.

I know the webcam guys struggle for bandwidth. ;)

Jim
EAA 64315

[Bill Berson]

I saw a phone box post from the underground phone line. (Just north of ultralight runway)
Is the wifi installed in the phone box? I know the range is only about 100 feet or something.
But I don't a see a bandwidth problem once it goes direct from the phone wire.

[Kyle Boatright]

I have to agree with Bill, even tho he's a short-timer (only since '84?) :-)

I just don't see the big deal about wifi.

<snip>

Jim
EAA 64315 (1/1/71)

In my case, I am occasionally a critical cog in the big organization that writes my paycheck. If/when the poop hits the fan, I need decent connectivity. I may only need it for 10 minutes at a time, but I do need it. I bet there are thousands at Osh who have the same need.

This year, I was at the show by early Saturday afternoon. Even with the limited number of people on the field at that time, EAA wifi was a no-go. Just pitiful. Either get it right or forget it. Instead, it is like Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football. Every year, I'm promised a different result, but every year the wifi is a bust.

[Floatsflyer]

I said it before and will again, I don't even own a smart phone or tablet. But if the masses want this service to go to an event and that event does not supply said service, don't be surprised when your attendance numbers are down.

If you think this is bad now, just wait.

Sorry Tony, I don't believe for one moment that the masses come or don't come to Oshkosh based on the quality of the wifi service. I believe they come because, like me, they want to see what GA has to offer and see and talk about the planes.

As far as attracting new blood, the overwhelming grounds will take care of that. And when the kids discover that all those devices they carry around and are addicted to, can actually be functionally used and adapted to aviation, they'll be even more intrigued and possibly hooked.

To say, "if you think this is bad now, just wait", is fear mongering with no basis in fact. If you want something to be really worried about, be worried about whether we'll have sufficient supplies of avgas in the future.

[FlyingRon]

Some of us arrive at Oshkosh well in advance of the show and start camping out and setting up and parking the incoming arrivals and doing other things that the show can't function without. It's one thing to say that there's no wifi available. It's another to LIE about it and say it is when you KNOW it doesn't work and you have no plans to EVER fix it.

[1600vw]

Sorry Tony, I don't believe for one moment that the masses come or don't come to Oshkosh based on the quality of the wifi service. I believe they come because, like me, they want to see what GA has to offer and see and talk about the planes.

As far as attracting new blood, the overwhelming grounds will take care of that. And when the kids discover that all those devices they carry around and are addicted to, can actually be functionally used and adapted to aviation, they'll be even more intrigued and possibly hooked.

To say, "if you think this is bad now, just wait", is fear mongering with no basis in fact. If you want something to be really worried about, be worried about whether we'll have sufficient supplies of avgas in the future.

You know you are right. Oshkosh is full of kids and young adults. I stand corrected. You are also right that technology is not going anywhere, we have seen all there is to see, I stand corrected on that too.

If stating you have not seen nothing yet is fear mongering not sure what to say about that, for I am speaking of technology. If this frightens you, I would stay away from everything in the future for its going to get worse.

Tony

[wyoranch]

In my case, I am occasionally a critical cog in the big organization that writes my paycheck. If/when the poop hits the fan, I need decent connectivity. I may only need it for 10 minutes at a time, but I do need it. I bet there are thousands at Osh who have the same need.

This year, I was at the show by early Saturday afternoon. Even with the limited number of people on the field at that time, EAA wifi was a no-go. Just pitiful. Either get it right or forget it. Instead, it is like Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football. Every year, I'm promised a different result, but every year the wifi is a bust.

I am also one of those people who is 'critical' to my companies operation should an emergency arrive. I am MORE than willing to take the chance that WIFI will not be available and MAY have to head over to McDonalds or Starbucks to correct an issue. Yes it would be terribly inconvienent and turn a 10 minute fix into an hour, but I would get that excited feeling twice in one day when I enter the grounds. :-) For me Osh is a vacation and I treat it as such, the bare minimum contact with the outside world. My cell/texting worked flawlessly.

[FlyingRon]

I had different experiences with Cell data. It only worked marginally better than the EAA WIFI at times. Some people actually do have to maintain contact. Even as a self-employed person, I can't go incommunicado for two weeks. Fortunately, the cell data only craps out on the busier days.

Camping in the middle of the field with no car, doesn't open up a whole lot of options to get to an off-field WIFI. Fortunately, wandering up to show center worked the few times I needed to do that.

[L16 Pilot]

I have no problem with those who need these electronic gadgets but having worked in a school system (in addition to driving school bus for a number of years) it seems like the kids simply can't live without calling or texting someone they just left the school with about their latest teen crisis. What we're doing is building is an addiction. On another note: I help out at a local food bank. Yesterday while the folks were waiting to get (probably a dozen or so) I noticed at least half were playing with their 'smart phones'. It does seem to me that buying food for your family would be more important than having a smart phone that has a monthly fee.

[Bill Berson]

It does seem to me that buying food for your family would be more important than having a smart phone that has a monthly fee.

I don't have a smart phone with a monthly fee. My T-mobile is pay as needed and costs me about $10 per year for minutes because I only use it once per month, it costs $.30 per minute. For several years I went with no cell phone at all.
But they removed every pay phone at Airventure, so I had to get a cell phone.

Wifi is free, so why not use it?
I read that some cities now have free wifi across the whole city.

[L16 Pilot]

On the other hand, I guess it's like a GPS (speaking of electronic gadgets). I'd hate to fly without it although I still carry paper maps (just in case) and use my check points and watch. Time marches on....and on....and on.....

[FlyingRon]

Times change. Used to be people didn't need to be connected because NOBODY was connected. You still had people talking on the phone but rather than their cell they were huddled around payphones. Those who have been coming to Oskhosh for more than a few years remember the payphone stands (both permanent and temporary) that were heavily used before cellphones (and served as a defacto posting place for airplane for sale ads).

[CarlOrton]

Times change. Used to be people didn't need to be connected because NOBODY was connected. You still had people talking on the phone but rather than their cell they were huddled around payphones. Those who have been coming to Oskhosh for more than a few years remember the payphone stands (both permanent and temporary) that were heavily used before cellphones (and served as a defacto posting place for airplane for sale ads).
That was 'way before I started attending, so my comment is completely conjecture, but if those payphones were heavily used, I'll bet that there were more than a few folks who would snarl at the payphone users and comment something like, "Look at that - they have to be tied to the office and can't even enjoy the show! Why do they even bother to show up?"

[FlyingRon]

Why do they even bother to show up?"

Because it's better than not attending at all. Perhaps you have some Mickey Mouse job where you can disappear incommunicado for two weeks, but in order to get a job that pays well enough to allow me to own and operate an aircraft, I need to check in from time to time.

[Mayhemxpc]

That was 'way before I started attending, so my comment is completely conjecture, but if those payphones were heavily used, I'll bet that there were more than a few folks who would snarl at the payphone users and comment something like, "Look at that - they have to be tied to the office and can't even enjoy the show! Why do they even bother to show up?"

It really doesn't seem like it was all that long ago…I think there were still some phones in 2007. Maybe not. Anyway, I never called work. Did call my wife and Dad to let them know I was safe and, especially for my Dad -- who first took me to what was then the EAA Fly-in, what great things I saw.

[CarlOrton]

Because it's better than not attending at all. Perhaps you have some Mickey Mouse job where you can disappear incommunicado for two weeks, but in order to get a job that pays well enough to allow me to own and operate an aircraft, I need to check in from time to time.

Ron, I hope you know or re-read my comment. *i* wasn't saying that; only putting words in the mouths of others who probably felt the same about being on the phone back then as others feel about some needing to be connected today.

I'm 60; ive worked avionics software my entire working life, so have been connected since the late 70's. I don't need to be connected most of the time while at Oshkosh, but when the late day storms roll in, you can bet I'm checking the radar sites so that I can either ignore them or take appropriate steps.

[Sonerai2mx]

Because it's better than not attending at all. Perhaps you have some Mickey Mouse job where you can disappear incommunicado for two weeks, but in order to get a job that pays well enough to allow me to own and operate an aircraft, I need to check in from time to time.

You're right, Ron. I know for a fact that there are many airline and other professional pilots with Mickey Mouse jobs on site for a week or two who never have to touch base with HQ. At the same time there are many who are a "little under the weather" or on reserve hoping not to get called that week (never me of course). For the latter group some good cell coverage and internet connectivity can be hugely important.

Only thing I used the phone and internet for was a Facebook scavenger hunt a bunch of us had throughout the week. Some of us have airplanes, most don't, but wandering around airventure largely without a plan is such a freeing experience if you have enough time to do so. Our friends who could not make the trip this year were tasked with coming up with the daily scavenger hunt ideas, it was a great way for them to stay active and see the sights while being thousands of miles away.

I'm not saying we're the future of general aviation since most of us are in our early 30's, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise when I'm hanging around the 'ol airdrome. I would love to see a youngster watching planes take off and land and say "hey kid, want to go for a ride?" Unfortunately for me the timing has never been right with my limited spare time to spend at the airport. A bit off topic I know, but the wifi and cell signal isn't the be all end all for most, but for a lot of people it makes the week just a little less stressful.

[Bill Berson]

I was standing at runway 36 sunday watching arrivals land. The kid next to me was listening to live OSH tower feed on his smart phone.
Another day while eating lunch, I saw Jack Pelton staring at his phone for several minutes under a shade tree at the headquarters building. I bet he had good wifi....

[frfly172]

The need to be accessible ,to the home front,is of most importance. Also good to be able to communicate with the home airfield,to farm any questions for those that could not attend.

[L16 Pilot]

I spent the last year of my air force career on a radar site in the middle of the Bering Sea (Saint Lawrence Island if you want to look it up). My goodness how did we survive without even a telephone? Only snail mail that was unreliable in the best times due to the poor weather and unable to get air service in. I think there was some kind of MARS system but I never got to use it so the folks at home and myself had to rely on the written word. So it goes.........

[jjhoneck]

I spent the last year of my air force career on a radar site in the middle of the Bering Sea (Saint Lawrence Island if you want to look it up). My goodness how did we survive without even a telephone? Only snail mail that was unreliable in the best times due to the poor weather and unable to get air service in. I think there was some kind of MARS system but I never got to use it so the folks at home and myself had to rely on the written word. So it goes.........
The Air Force had a remote radar site, presumably connected to NORAD in some hardened, secure fashion -- but they neglected to run a phone line "as long as they were at it"?

[L16 Pilot]

Apparently not as we were on an island 150 miles between Nome and Russia. I'm sure there was some kind of radio communication but nothing we could use to contact the home folks. There were some radio antennas called "White Alice" if I remember correctly (this was 55 years ago) but I'm unsure if they were used for communication or surveillance. Thinking about it...they were pointed at the mainland so I'm guessing communication. I was diesel mechanic so it wasn't really in my field. My only point with the post was we seemed to survive with only written mail from the home folks and girl friends.

[Jeff Boatright]

...On another note: I help out at a local food bank. Yesterday while the folks were waiting to get (probably a dozen or so) I noticed at least half were playing with their 'smart phones'. It does seem to me that buying food for your family would be more important than having a smart phone that has a monthly fee.

You never know, though. A lot of times these days "the working poor," of which there are many, are working multiple part-time jobs, have kids, responsibilities, are expecting/hoping for call backs from potential employers, etc., all things that make having a cell phone pretty useful.

However, those folks by and large are not wandering the grounds at OSH.

As to connectivity at OSH, since EAA has apps designed for Convention use, they need to get this particular house in order. Either that, or pull the apps. I've been heavily involved in large meetings as part of my other life. It's very frustrating for the members to try to use a feature or service of the organization only to have another part of the organization let them down.

[FlyingRon]

Y
However, those folks by and large are not wandering the grounds at OSH.


I don't know what sort of people you think ARE wandering the grounds of Ohskosh. My wife and I have disparate jobs and we both are expected to be reachable. Maybe you have a job and life situation were you can disappear for two weeks incommunicado, I would argue that's not the norm.

[Jim Rosenow]

I think most of us can agree that for many people who attend OSH, cell phone coverage, and to a lesser extent internet access, is necessary to job-related functions while in attendance. My opinion is that EAA is in no way obligated to provide it.

To condense some specific comments I remember from the thread (paraphrasing)...

Big airports/hotels have wifi everywhere...yup, and it's used 52 weeks a year, which justifies infrastructure expense. Much of the Airventure site is a hay field the rest of the year.

EAA has an app so they should supply the bandwidth to use it....I have LiveATC on my phone, but don't expect them to provide internet so I can access it.

Wifi didn't work well in the woods....I suspect wifi works less than optimally in most woods.

I'm absolutely critical to my organization... (opinion again) If you are that important to your work organization, you, that organization, and the cell phone provider with which you have a contract are responsible for maintaining (and paying for) a link to that organization during your vacation.

I see wifi on the field as a courtesy. We (and yes my wife is one of those critical to the organization folks) were able to use the phone and a personal hotspot for wifi to do anything we needed.

Life is good, folks!! :-) (Flame suit on and locked!!)

Jim
EAA 64315

[Mayhemxpc]

I think most of us can agree that for many people who attend OSH, cell phone coverage, and to a lesser extent internet access, is necessary to job-related functions while in attendance. My opinion is that EAA is in no way obligated to provide it.

To condense some specific comments I remember from the thread (paraphrasing)...


EAA has an app so they should supply the bandwidth to use it....I have LiveATC on my phone, but don't expect them to provide internet so I can access it.

...
I see wifi on the field as a courtesy. We (and yes my wife is one of those critical to the organization folks) were able to use the phone and a personal hotspot for wifi to do anything we needed.

Life is good, folks!! :-) (Flame suit on and locked!!)

Jim
EAA 64315

Jim, although I generally agree with your summary, I think that you are off target on the point about the app and wifi. In years past, yes, it was a very nice courtesy to us all. This year, however, EAA pushed the app as the way for you to stay up on everything, including developments, changes, and so on. For the first few days, it pushing the app and all of the great things it would do seemed to be part of their script. Part of the script was that you stayed connected over the wifi. Similarly, EAA pushed the availability of the wifi for all kinds of AirVenture related purposes. THAT made things different. EAA created an expectation of availability and service in a way they had not done in the past. If an organization promotes a service and creates an expectation then it needs to do its best to fulfill the expectation it created.

[Jetguy]

Chris I couldn't have said it any better! Great job!

[Jim Rosenow]

Jim, although I generally agree with your summary, I think that you are off target on the point about the app and wifi. In years past, yes, it was a very nice courtesy to us all. This year, however, EAA pushed the app as the way for you to stay up on everything, including developments, changes, and so on. For the first few days, it pushing the app and all of the great things it would do seemed to be part of their script. Part of the script was that you stayed connected over the wifi. Similarly, EAA pushed the availability of the wifi for all kinds of AirVenture related purposes. THAT made things different. EAA created an expectation of availability and service in a way they had not done in the past. If an organization promotes a service and creates an expectation then it needs to do its best to fulfill the expectation it created.

We agree more than we disagree, Chris. Perhaps in theory EAA set an expectation of wifi by promoting their app. They certainly promoted it heavily. I (me personally) didn't see anything promoting an unrestricted use of EAA wi-fi as the end-all be-all of communication, but then I wasn't specifically looking.

In execution, any 'full' wifi was almost destined to fail..again, that's an opinion.

An analogy...I have a campground in the Wisconsin woods and I run a few wires around so my campers can have a 100 watt light (the Airventure app) in their tent or camper. My power-happy campers also fire up 1500 watt electric heaters (uploading pix from on-field, at least one user mentioned running their own video stream from the camper, playing internet hide and seek, etc). The lights brown out from lack of amperage...my fault?

My campers say...easy - just get a bigger wire! Problem is I'm in the middle of nowhere and the power company would have to run a new and expensive power line (fiber optic cable) which they will make me pay handsomely for each month, even when there are no campers around to use it.

My long-about way of saying "There may just not be a good and cost effective wi-fi answer until the technology improves". Did EAA over-promote?....justifiably open to debate.

Disclaimer...my membership is my only connection to EAA. I know nothing about the specific infrastructure at OSH. I firmly and unequivocably declare that my opinion is worth every cent you paid for it! :-)

On another subject....love your web site, Chris! Keep 'em flying!!

Jim
EAA 64315

[Jim Hann]

Apparently not as we were on an island 150 miles between Nome and Russia. I'm sure there was some kind of radio communication but nothing we could use to contact the home folks. There were some radio antennas called "White Alice" if I remember correctly (this was 55 years ago) but I'm unsure if they were used for communication or surveillance. Thinking about it...they were pointed at the mainland so I'm guessing communication. I was diesel mechanic so it wasn't really in my field. My only point with the post was we seemed to survive with only written mail from the home folks and girl friends.

Yup, here it is... http://www.whitealice.net/

[Jim Hann]

I was in Oshkosh Friday to Friday, living in Camp Scholler. Before the show started I had spotty cell service and virtually no data at all. Wifi worked fine if I walked towards one of the dedicated buildings in the campground. During the show I had no problem with cell and data service (booster tower? dunno) but I really didn't mess with Wifi on the main grounds because my cell data was fine (and I had plenty in my plan).

T-birds, I left Friday, so it really didn't affect me as far as crowd control. I would have been annoyed if I was not able to access my tent and airplane on the rainy days, so my response next year may be different. Personally, I admire the skill of the jet teams but I don't go to an airshow to watch them. The type of acts that draw me to a show are the likes of John Mohr, Oscar Boesch/Manfred Radius/Bob Carlton, "Flying Farmer" acts, formation Eagles, Matt Younkin, etc. Maybe throw in a micro jet or Jet Waco for good measure but I don't need to see much turbine action.

All of my interactions with vendors was positive, Stewart Systems, Whelen, TAP, Belvoir pubs, Univair, GCA, PCA, Icom, are but some of the folks I talked to. I barely looked at the Fly Market, walked right past the non-aviation folks in the buildings (can we put them in one building so we can skip them?)... okay, I did look at the neon signs, in case I ever have a place to hang one! I also did sell one of the two items I had in the Aeromart, good experience there!

See y'all next year, hopefully with my airplane!

[FlyingRon]

If they want to put up WIFI as a sort of "we're trying it" that's fine.
If you advertise it's presence, then it darn well better work or people are going to be disappointed.

[Spindrift]

I never took a Young Eagle for a ride and had them get out afterwards and say, "That was okay, but not as cool as my ipad."

I took a Young Eagle out last weekend and he was texting most of the flight until I told him it was his turn to fly but he had to let me hold his phone. From then on he was quite a bit more engaged. That said, its not about what is "cool," its about the desire to immediately share experiences with others. I suspect the flight had a positive multiplier effect once he texted all his friends the picture I took of him flying the plane.

-- bill
Seattle

[skyfixer8]

Getting back to trams, #1. I would like to see the bigger tram cars made handicap accessable. I saw where people had to wait for an accessable car many times there, even women with larger carriages could not get on. #2. How about putting weather curtains on the tram cars so riders would have shelter available if needed. Just unroll. #3. Last, the tram route going between the display buildings should go up onto the edge of the Fly market. From what I have seen, I think most of the people comming for the day are more interested in that area than buying overpriced avionics.

[Bill Berson]

They made us get off the tram when we had lightning bolts nearby. I think the tram is the safer place to be with rubber tires.
But that is just my opinion, I suppose.

[FlyingRon]

They made us get off the tram when we had lightning bolts nearby. I think the tram is the safer place to be with rubber tires.
But that is just my opinion, I suppose.

Your opinion is incorrect. The tires don't protect you from lighting. You're sitting a a large metallic lightning rod.

http://www.snopes.com/science/tires.asp

[Bill Berson]

OK, my opinion is changed, the tram is a giant faraday cage and is safer than standing wet in the rain.

[FlyingRon]

Unfortunately, it's not a faraday cage. There's not enough metal unlike the car where you're fully enclosed and isolated. Neither the older trams nor the newer ones have metal roofs. At least the newer ones you're sitting on fiberglass (though you're feet are still on the metal floor).

[Bill Berson]

It is still better than standing on wet earth unprotected.

[FlyingRon]

That's arguable. Your best move when outdoors is to curl up as tight as possible on the soles of your feat. The better solution is to get indoors somewhere.
Sitting on a large metal target is the LAST place I want to be.

[Bill Berson]

Lightning strikes airliners frequently. The passengers are not harmed because the current goes around and out the bottom.

[flybuddy]

Possible solutions to some of the issues raised:

* Golf Carts--draw narrow lanes clearly labeled for Golf Carts and enforce that they remain in the lanes. If walkers elect to walk in the lanes then they shouldn't complain. Makes for a safer show for all.

* T-Birds--Military demo teams are simply not the right mix for the normal Airventure attendee demographic. Too much disruption and inconvenience. Additional revenue and younger draw are understood. Suggest the Airventure grounds be used for a normal general public airshow at some time OTHER than Airventure. 4th of July would be optimal.

* Wifi--you can't say you want younger attendees as justification for military demo teams and then do a half assed attempt at wifi..Modern kids won't go anywhere they can't stay connected to their virtual world. Get some professional help and get it fixed

Good luck next year!

[FlyingRon]

* Golf Carts--draw narrow lanes clearly labeled for Golf Carts and enforce that they remain in the lanes. If walkers elect to walk in the lanes then they shouldn't complain. Makes for a safer show for all.

They had this on Whitman road. Problem is that nobody, neither the pedestrians or the carts bothered to pay much attention.


* T-Birds--Military demo teams are simply not the right mix for the normal Airventure attendee demographic. Too much disruption and inconvenience. Additional revenue and younger draw are understood. Suggest the Airventure grounds be used for a normal general public airshow at some time OTHER than Airventure. 4th of July would be optimal.

Better than shockwave and the masters of stupidity acts in my opinion. Actually, the younger crowd SHOULD BE the right demographic. If they come out to watch the T-Birds and hang out looking at homebuilts or vintage aircraft or doing building activities or whatever on the way, they might get the impression that aviation is a possibility as either an avocation or a vocation. Having had the responsibility for dealing with much of the inconvenience, I'll take it if it gets more younger kids.


* Wifi--you can't say you want younger attendees as justification for military demo teams and then do a half assed attempt at wifi..Modern kids won't go anywhere they can't stay connected to their virtual world. Get some professional help and get it fixed

Agreed. Also a more aggressive social media presence would help. I kind of laughed about this, but the Smithsonian kicked ass with theirs on the family days.

[flybuddy]

Good points---better to suggest fixes than just gripe

[Mayhemxpc]

I don't remember the golf cart lanes on Wittman. I absolutely believe you when you say they were there. Given that no one pointed this out before, I think that I may not be the only one that didn't know. So if it isn't widely known and the rule isn't enforced, then it is just a waste of paint. As far as walking in the lanes at your own risk… I agree with the sentiment. Sort of like bike lanes on the sidewalk in Brussels. If you are hit by a bike doing 40 kph, you will be the one cited…after you get out of the hospital. On the other hand, at OSH, people are looking and gawking all over the place, especially skyward. It is kind of the point of going. I saw more than a few people walk into things. (Why is my camera never ready at times like that? Probably because I am sometimes the one running into the signs, posts, and people.) In short, they can't even stay on the road, much less a certain part of the road. Trying to keep them from being run over by (or just walking into) the trams is hard enough.

And that doesn't agrees the Chrysler driving through the crowd on Boeing Plaza Friday and Saturday. No need for lines if even the most basic safety rules aren't enforced.

[FlyingRon]

They're probably long faded, but there was a yellow line striped about a few feet down each side. of the road. I can't remember if that was the "cart lane" or the "vehicle free lane" but as I said, it was pretty roundly ignored.

[FlyingRon]

Not enforcing the rules is a big problem. Vehicles (other than the tugs and other necessary support vehicles) should never be in a crowded place like the <Insert Current Sponsor for the west ram here> square. It used to be MUCH worse, just about anybody with a vendor pass used to drive through the crowd to get to their booth. Years ago I suggested that the show was getting big enough like other shows I attend to require an exposition company to move freight, etc.... It's a whole lot better (at least for the public) since Greyhound has been there to take care of things.

There's no need for vehicles to be travelling much faster than pedestrian speed where they are allowed. Most of the emergency stuff shoots down in front of the burn line anyhow to avoid the pedestrians.

One thing that came out of two "unfortunates" is the combination of the new perimeter fence / road (that took away a good deal of Vintage camping) and the rules for the T-birds. During the T-bird show days, all the vehicular traffic was routed just south of the Vintage Barn up the perimeter road down until you got to ultralights. Boy did this make a positive change in Vintage.