lets improve the airshow!

[nigel hitchman]

I had a great 5 and a half days at Oshkosh, Sunday to Friday morning. Great turnout of aircraft, although the warbirds were a bit down and met up with many many friends, always great time.
But as is often the case (think this was my 28th Oshkosh) the biggest disappointment and frustration is the airshow. It seems to me that far too much emphasis is given to the established airshow acts or sponsors aircraft, but not to what is unique to Oshkosh, the interesting aircraft that the members bring. The airshow is also too long with too many aerobatic acts all very similar that go on for ages.

Most frustrating was the GeeBee QED, to many the highlight of Oshkosh this year, they only flew one day (perhaps their choice) but then just took off, did one pass (which was great for photos thanks) and then landed on 27 rather than 36 infront of us, I don't think that was their choice, the wind was very light. I imagine it was due to the airboss who wanted the next act on the runway. The next act was yet another aerobatic act (Orange CAP/Extra etc) which had at least twice the time the GeeBee did. Surely the GeeBee could have done 3 or 4 passes, even if they were fairly straight and level, much more interesting to see. Earlier a BD5 variant had done 10 or more very similar mildly aerobatic passes, taking a lot of time, but they were an established act with sponors I guess.
We even had the TBM900 doing a much longer display, of little interest to most people, but a sponsor, so I guess that is why they get a longer timeslot.
Similarly the Fairey Gannet only did one pass and then landed, at least on 36.

I did like the Breezy fly-bys this was probably the highlight of the airshow, but again they could have flown by more than once, as could the homebuilts in the homebuilt review.
The vintage review was a big disappointment, seeing this on the list earlier in the week I was hoping we were going to return to the good old days of the Vintage parade of flight which lasted 30-40 minutes and featured many vintage aircraft. This year we could have had some good choices with the Lockheed 12s, Fairchild 71s, Vega, Travelair D4D, Travelair B14, Staggerwings, Howards, Wacos etc. But then saw it was only 15 minutes! And even more disappointed when we saw just 5 or 6 Classics were to take part! We really need to make more effort to try to get some of the more interesting vintage aircraft flying in the show. Obviously some owners don't want to fly, but surely some do.

The warbird shows are also particularly frustrating. Monday as we wanted to see the Gannet, we stood by 18/36 and waited for the warbird arrivals, they came in their formations,quite a few high flybys and a couple of lower fly bys, then started to break off to land. Now time for some good landing photos we thought!! But, no, they all landed on 27! Wind wasn't a factor and for the first 10 minutes of them landing there wasn't anything happening on 18/36 at all, just the announcer continuing his talking. Even when something did happen it was just yet another aerobatic act. Surely it would be much more interesting for the crowd to watch the warbirds land. Tuesday we stood by 27 at the end of the warbirds and had a much better show with nearly everything landing infront of us, the added bonus here being well away from the speakers, so we could hear the aircraft rather than the announcers.

Ive long found the style of the warbird show disappointing, the big formations of trainers are OK, but cant they do anything else (of course the Trojan Horsemen are a notable exception) The liaison/trainers fly around in circles miles away, one close lower pass would be better! and then the fighters (Very few this year) also just do fast straight passes far away, pulling up at the end, then circle round and do the same thing again and again.
The one improvement this year was the formation of 4 T33s which were great to see. The next best "warbird show" were the 4 Stearmans who did 4 or 5 different formation passes down 27 during Friday morning.

I missed the "big" Friday warbird show as I had left by then, but a friend told me it was very poor with no fighters, the only bomber being an OV-1 and no Liaisons either, a lot less than Tuesday. We did notice many warbirds had left on Friday morning.

Perhaps someone needs to visit Duxford or La Ferte Alais in France to see what can be done for a warbird airshow, although at Oshkosh 2013 the Texas flying legend showed how it could be done.

[glider90]

As a long time visitor that loved my eight days in Osh, I have to say I feel the same as you. Everything was great, but the air shows could be improved. The T-33's were cool, as was the TX Flying Legends dogfight, but beyond that a major disappointment. The “Tora Tora Tora” and TX Flying Legends shows of 2013 were superb, and I hoped that we would see more of that in the future, but I was wrong. I know weather impacted Friday, but the rest of the week was no better.
There were two P-38's on the ramp capable of flying. Would have loved to see them do a flyby together. Throw the zero in there for them to chase around and you have a very memorable formation.
Would have loved to see a few of the Lockheeds in the air together. I know some of the owners choose not to fly, but I also know the DAV B-25 puts on a fantastic solo demo flight, and form talking to them they wanted to but were not gives a slot.

I posted this after the 2012 show, and while 2013 was an improvement, 2014 was a step back:
I feel the warbird shows have gotten kind of stale. Single P-51's doing flat laps for 10 minutes...the B-25's flying high and above the crowd while the O-birds circle on stage center.
Oshkosh brings a large array of aircraft together one time a year, and the air show would be a great place to showcase this. I offer some possible ideas for improvement:

~We had three great versions of tri-motors on the field, Junkers, Stinson, Ford. How cool would a three ship pass from those be?
~There were at least five P-40's on the field. What would it take to get a five ship pass from them?
~How about a tail chase of the A-36 to P-51D progression, going from A-36 to 51A, B, C and D? The planes where there to do it.
~Hinton in the P-38 doing acro was awesome. More vintage solo acts would be great. How about the Horseman?
~Can the tail chase passes be a bit more animated? Some curving passes that show the tops and bottoms of the wings, not just a profile? (More Max Hoffman-ish of you will)
~Really missed seeing FIFI depart and return from Wittman. It would have been nice to see a B-17 in the show.
~I would love for the EAA warbird show to look a bit more like the Legends show at Duxford. No reason it cannot. This 2 minute clip is exactly what I wish the show organizers would plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCja_syG3uk

[krw920]

T-6's to me have never meant warbirds. Yes, they flew during war time, but to train, a very important role during the war not be discounted. But Warbirds are warrior aircraft, not trainers in my opinion, others may disagree.

And if you are going to have them in the show, flying them over in formation at 6,000 feet repeatedly really doesn't do much for me, bring them down where people can actually see them!

So if you are going to label it an "extravaganza" it really should be and extravaganza, and that I can say with ease it wasn't.

[flyboycpa]

I had a great 5 and a half days at Oshkosh, Sunday to Friday morning. Great turnout of aircraft, although the warbirds were a bit down and met up with many many friends, always great time.
But as is often the case (think this was my 28th Oshkosh) the biggest disappointment and frustration is the airshow. It seems to me that far too much emphasis is given to the established airshow acts or sponsors aircraft, but not to what is unique to Oshkosh, the interesting aircraft that the members bring. The airshow is also too long with too many aerobatic acts all very similar that go on for ages.

Most frustrating was the GeeBee QED, to many the highlight of Oshkosh this year, they only flew one day (perhaps their choice) but then just took off, did one pass (which was great for photos thanks) and then landed on 27 rather than 36 infront of us, I don't think that was their choice, the wind was very light. I imagine it was due to the airboss who wanted the next act on the runway. The next act was yet another aerobatic act (Orange CAP/Extra etc) which had at least twice the time the GeeBee did. Surely the GeeBee could have done 3 or 4 passes, even if they were fairly straight and level, much more interesting to see. Earlier a BD5 variant had done 10 or more very similar mildly aerobatic passes, taking a lot of time, but they were an established act with sponors I guess.
We even had the TBM900 doing a much longer display, of little interest to most people, but a sponsor, so I guess that is why they get a longer timeslot.
Similarly the Fairey Gannet only did one pass and then landed, at least on 36.

I did like the Breezy fly-bys this was probably the highlight of the airshow, but again they could have flown by more than once, as could the homebuilts in the homebuilt review.
The vintage review was a big disappointment, seeing this on the list earlier in the week I was hoping we were going to return to the good old days of the Vintage parade of flight which lasted 30-40 minutes and featured many vintage aircraft. This year we could have had some good choices with the Lockheed 12s, Fairchild 71s, Vega, Travelair D4D, Travelair B14, Staggerwings, Howards, Wacos etc. But then saw it was only 15 minutes! And even more disappointed when we saw just 5 or 6 Classics were to take part! We really need to make more effort to try to get some of the more interesting vintage aircraft flying in the show. Obviously some owners don't want to fly, but surely some do.

The warbird shows are also particularly frustrating. Monday as we wanted to see the Gannet, we stood by 18/36 and waited for the warbird arrivals, they came in their formations,quite a few high flybys and a couple of lower fly bys, then started to break off to land. Now time for some good landing photos we thought!! But, no, they all landed on 27! Wind wasn't a factor and for the first 10 minutes of them landing there wasn't anything happening on 18/36 at all, just the announcer continuing his talking. Even when something did happen it was just yet another aerobatic act. Surely it would be much more interesting for the crowd to watch the warbirds land. Tuesday we stood by 27 at the end of the warbirds and had a much better show with nearly everything landing infront of us, the added bonus here being well away from the speakers, so we could hear the aircraft rather than the announcers.

Ive long found the style of the warbird show disappointing, the big formations of trainers are OK, but cant they do anything else (of course the Trojan Horsemen are a notable exception) The liaison/trainers fly around in circles miles away, one close lower pass would be better! and then the fighters (Very few this year) also just do fast straight passes far away, pulling up at the end, then circle round and do the same thing again and again.
The one improvement this year was the formation of 4 T33s which were great to see. The next best "warbird show" were the 4 Stearmans who did 4 or 5 different formation passes down 27 during Friday morning.

I missed the "big" Friday warbird show as I had left by then, but a friend told me it was very poor with no fighters, the only bomber being an OV-1 and no Liaisons either, a lot less than Tuesday. We did notice many warbirds had left on Friday morning.

Perhaps someone needs to visit Duxford or La Ferte Alais in France to see what can be done for a warbird airshow, although at Oshkosh 2013 the Texas flying legend showed how it could be done.

As one of the pilots of the Fairchild 71 (Pan Am, blue and white one), we kept pushing to try to get our 71 and the other beautiful 71 (the maroon and white one) to fly a showcase to no avail. You would think with all the hype (we got a "special" invite to bring it to OSH…not that anyone needs one) that they would be begging us to do showcase flights. As you said, we had some wonderful aircraft that folks would have loved to have seen (Fairchild 71's, Gee Bee, Vega, etc.). Oh well.

Sam

[nigel hitchman]

Sam,
thank for your post and thank very much for brining that beautiful Farchild 71. To see the two Fairchild 71s in the air together would certainly have been one of the highlights of the week. Who are these people who decide what appears in the display and do they know anything about the real Oshkosh and the wonderful array of aircraft there that we could see fly, or are they just "airshow professionals" going from one show to the next, treating them all the same with the usual audiences that don't know much about aircraft and noise and smoke and shouting announcers are what really matters. Its not like that at Oshkosh and they need to be educated or removed.
Ive seen thousands of aerobatic displays at Oshkosh and elsewhere in 40 years of going to airshows, but Ive never seen a Fairchild 71 fly and I bet that is the same for most people there. Why do these organisers think we would rather see yet another aerobatic display than the unique sight of two Fairchild 71s???

On a more positive note, I did enjoy the Valdez STOL demonstrations one of the few highlights.

[jasstech]

I do love the aerobatic routines and enjoyed how they were split up. Aerobatic followed by formation flybys followed by more aerobatics etc. I definitely agree it would be awesome to have more unique aircraft showcased though. It would be great if they found a way to work that in.

[Jeff Boatright]

Well, maybe sailplane aerobatics are fun to watch.

I much prefer the unique planes in flybys.

[N222AB]

I almost never stay for the airshows anymore. I might casually watch one while sipping on a root beer float, but that's about it. How many lomcevaks and inverted flat spins do we really need to see in one afternoon? The warbird shows with various mostly unrelated types doing circuits at high speed aren't terribly interesting, especially when the "boom" part of the show sends black smoke west over the crowd. As others have mentioned, how about some fly-bys with some interesting types like the Fairchild 71s mentioned above. I remember many years ago of a pair of Constellations doing formation fly-bys and what a thrill it was to see that. It seems like the airshow folks have settled into a comfortable routine that isn't very interesting to those of us who have seen it before. I know the logistics of getting airplanes there and working up a show scenario must be difficult, but, I would hope more creativity would go into them. Do we really need multiple big name aerobatic pilots doing basically the same thing in the same show?

[Kyle Boatright]

I almost never stay for the airshows anymore. I might casually watch one while sipping on a root beer float, but that's about it. How many lomcevaks and inverted flat spins do we really need to see in one afternoon? The warbird shows with various mostly unrelated types doing circuits at high speed aren't terribly interesting, especially when the "boom" part of the show sends black smoke west over the crowd. As others have mentioned, how about some fly-bys with some interesting types like the Fairchild 71s mentioned above. I remember many years ago of a pair of Constellations doing formation fly-bys and what a thrill it was to see that. It seems like the airshow folks have settled into a comfortable routine that isn't very interesting to those of us who have seen it before. I know the logistics of getting airplanes there and working up a show scenario must be difficult, but, I would hope more creativity would go into them. Do we really need multiple big name aerobatic pilots doing basically the same thing in the same show?

Agree 100%. I don't even watch those acts anymore. In fact, I don't even set aside time for the airshows anymore. If there is an interesting act doing its thing, I'll stop what I'm doing and watch. This year, that was pretty much the Zero vs F4U act and the Osprey.

[L16 Pilot]

I'd have to agree with most of the statements above. I love the flybys of war birds, vintage, and anything with big radials. I guess the aerobatics are interesting to some folks but one routine doesn't seem much different from another in my uneducated mind.

[Inspector Fenwick]

I would like to suggest we look at this thru the eyes of an 8 year old who has never been to OSH. I got to do that this year. We all get a bit jaded, boys and girls. Airventure is a public show. Yes I am usually taking a shower, but others who have never been to the event are seeing everything for the first time. Now I will say that watching a TBM 900 says NOTHING to me and is so far from "EAA" as to be laughable, but that is another story.

[Jim Rosenow]

Airventure is a public show.

Perhaps THAT is the issue, Larry. I'm sure it's entirely radical to suggest that the grounds be closed to non-members (unless accompanying a member) till the last Friday. Tailor the airshows and the rest of the activities to us jaded folks early in the week (sort of like a convention), and on the weekend let the public in for a 'standard' weekend of airshow. We need the public's support, but I find it less than optimal that 'my' convention airshow is tailored to them.

Ditto to the airshow catering to advertisers, i.e. TBM.

That said, thanks for getting an 8-year-old to KOSH, Larry. It must have been fun watching thru those eyes!

Jim
EAA 64315

[Mayhemxpc]

First, I am generally supportive the the idea of devoting time to seeing the vintage airplanes fly by in parade, and the other homebuilts, too. That is what EAA is about. Personally, multiple aerobatics routines do little for me. There are many people, however, who really enjoy these...even if they don't post on this forum. Say concentrate on one or two each day, with different acts on different days leaving more time for, say multiple passes by QED. Now for the Warbirds part. I flew an L-Bird (O-2A) on Tuesday and Saturday, and was cancelled on Friday due to weather (more on that later.) The air boss has a very limited time slot for all things warbird. This past week it was typically about 50 minutes. He has a lot of different aircraft to put through the show in that limited time. Let me tell you that it is probably as exciting to see it from the air as on the ground, what with the T-33's screaming past just below us and pulling up in front of us. Each of those levels of the swirling beehive of warbirds is only 300 feet apart from the levels above and below...and these are not professional airshow pilots. Altitude deviations are common (and exciting.) Landing on 18 or 36 would be very visually satisfying for the crowd and the pilots, too! This has to be balanced by putting all of the airplanes through the show, which includes low strafing passes and lots of pyro. Therefore the air boss moves the airplanes away from show center to recover on 9/27 while other airplanes take stage center. This year, there was a plan to have the L-birds pass low over 36 (400') enroute to 27. This did not happen on Tuesday because we were running over on time. On Friday, many warbirds acts were scrubbed because of the weather. Although it was only a mildly severe thunderstorm over OSH at the time the L-birds would have launched, 1 mile north of OSH there was significant hail. The result was noted by others, but it was the best decision for reasons of safety. On Saturday, all participating L-Birds were able to do the 400' flyby, and I was able to lower my landing gear about airshow center, demonstrating the O-2s really are retract. (A common question of vistors to my plane.) Things can always be better, and each year I see improvement. Overall, I think that the air bosses do a great job, even though that might not be obvious from the ground.

[L16 Pilot]

Thanks for your insight from the performers perspective. There are things that go on to run a show that most of us don't know about. Weather and time are certainly big factors. As a L16 owner and pilot (war bird...sort of) I'd love to participate in a fly by at some future event but that probably won't happen. I think the flybys are most interesting to those of us who are restorers and owners and have been coming for many years (therefore probably vintage types.....insert grin ) On the other hand, those who are not 'regular' may like the aerobatics so I guess there needs to be a good balance. I'll keep coming as long as my pins hold out.

[Jeff Boatright]

I would like to suggest we look at this thru the eyes of an 8 year old who has never been to OSH. I got to do that this year. We all get a bit jaded, boys and girls. Airventure is a public show. Yes I am usually taking a shower, but others who have never been to the event are seeing everything for the first time. Now I will say that watching a TBM 900 says NOTHING to me and is so far from "EAA" as to be laughable, but that is another story.

From childhood I've never been interested in watching aerobatics -- just not my thing, though others enjoy it, and more power to them. I guess it's a matter of balance. Not to be a curmudgeon, but when I first went to OSH in the mid-80s, there seemed to be a lot more "normal" flying activity -- all kinds of planes flying all day long, flown by "normal" people, the owners and builders. True, the afternoon was taken by a formal airshow, but there seemed to be more of a mix of actual flying all the rest of the day. This memory may be a complete misinterpretation of reality, so I am open to being corrected. Regardless, I think it is worthwhile considering whether we would like the aspects of convention airspace use changed.

Maybe constructive input would be welcomed by Jack et al.

As to seeing through the eyes of an 8 year old, I've taken my nephews and godchildren to several OSHs, spanning ages from 4 to 11 and across several trips over the years. None of them watched the aerobatics much past the first performer of the first day -- and that was in the company of adults who would have gladly plopped down to watch just so they could plop down somewhere -- those kids can run you ragged!

[mazdaP5]

For me, I liked the afternoon show better the way they used to segment it. It was showcase, warbirds, airshow, then military display. Now with it jumbled together, those with no interest in the aero have to sit through it to watch the showcase stuff. I'm guessing those interested in the aero aren't all that thrilled by slow vintage fly-bys, and those interested in showcase don't care much for the flip flops.

Monday's airshow had three separate jumper acts. One is really enough, they are all exactly the same.

Airshow highlights for me this year were the Beech 18, the RC stuff (I'm an rc guy) and the Thunderbirds were really impressive. That being said, having seen them, I don't think I'd have them back. They were brilliant, but having an un-obscured view of the action on 18-36 is more important to me. The Thunderbird show line had direct influence on my leaving Saturday without seeing my favorite Warbirds show. The ground action is just as important as the flying action, I want to see the old birds launch and recover. Thunderbirds line made that nearly impossible. Just a brief glimpse was available.

[JimRice85]

Seems back in the late 70s, there were various showcase/display flights throughout the day. There was also a time anyone who wish to go fly and made circuits around the field could do so.

The problem with the acro today is that it all looks about the same. It was formerly a great mix of the likes of Bob Lyjack in his Taperwing Waco followed but Leo Loudenslager in his BD-5J or Laser, then Bob Hoover in the Shrike or P-51. Jimmy Franklin in his modified Waco and the likes were all mixed in. Typically a showcase of flight highlighting a specific type or era took place before the formal airshow.

Seems there is still quite a mix of acts rather than having so many gyrating tumbling Extras and such.

[FlyingRon]

I liked the showcases, but they've been gone for a decade no replaced with a feeble "review" for which the vintage one was pretty much rained out anyhow. This brings up the stupidity of the departure briefing folks. Back when the flyby pattern was in effect pre-airshow on 18-36 they served a useful purpose. Now they add to the confusion and all they do is hand out what's already in the notam'd departure procedures.

Frankly, I liked this years airshow line up. To me it was much fresher than the ho-hum stuff that they've been showing for years. Yeah, Otto is corny but some of the younger acro guys are pretty neat to watch.

Frankly, I didn't see the "disaster" predicted with the T-birds. The crowds nicely kept back to the modified line. Things weren't unwieldy and in fact I aw MANY MORE children than I've seen in the airventure crowd in years. An added bonus was watching a dozen kids take their induction oath in the AF prior to Saturday's show. Even the Sunday show (despite the torrential rain) was pretty well attended.

[nigel hitchman]

thanks mayhemxpc for some insight into the warbrid show, much as expected and we love to see you guys flying. However with all that I still think there is room for improvement, particularly on shows like Monday where there was at least 10 minutes of nothing happening over 18/36 towards the end of the segment, but plenty of aircraft breaking off and landing on 27 that could have been on 36!
Id also rather see less of you circling in the distance over the lake, do one or two less orbits but land on 36. Although a 400ft flyby over 36L would also be good (not so good this year when the crowdlne was moved back) Id also rather see the fighters do less patterns around the lake and straffing runs if it meant there would be more time for take-off and landings on 18/36. Even upto a few years ago the T6s T28s all fighters and bombers would takeoff on 18 and land on 36 wind permitting, I don't know why this has changed.
Or on the otherhand make it policy and know that all warbird are going to take off and land on27, then those of us wanting photos can just go to 27, at least then we don't have to listen to the announcer.

I think Jim Rice has hit the nail on the head regarding all the aerobatic acts being very similar. I don't say dispense with them all just have less and more time to fly the interesting unique types we get at Oshkosh, rather than the professional airshow performers we have seen so many time before (or acts very similar)

[Mayhemxpc]

Perspective is an interesting thing. We are not over the lake! We fly up over the line of trucks just east of 36R so that the strafing runs/low passes can proceed up the middle of 36L. We then make a steep turn reversal and are less than a half mile east of 36R on the downwind pass. I admit that it looks a lot farther out than that. Didn't think about the 400' pass being off-set by the crowd moving further back. That is a downer. Well that should not be a problem next year. The stacks are at 400', 700' and 1000' with the slower airplanes low and the faster ones on top. The other warbirds have a different flight pattern, with holding orbits at different positions resembling a giant daisy and then coming in for the low passes from different directions and altitudes. It is really quite an airborne ballet. There are two different controllers coordinating the choreography. Every year I have flown we recover on 27 (9 as a back-up) so if you want to get those good landing and takeoff pix, positioning yourself on the north edge of warbirds parking is a good choice. Chris Mayer N424AF

[N222AB]

And just one more thing about the Thunderbirds at OSH...

I know some purists don't like the idea of the military demonstration teams being at Oshkosh. I am firmly in favor of having them and I hope the T-birds or Blues are there next year. The military demo teams do several things for an airshow. They tend to bring out the general public who may not normally go to a show and I think that's exactly what we need. People come out to see the jets, but they have to go past the GA displays and see the small airplane aerobatic performers before the zoom and boom. They get to see the military shows which hopefully will inspire at least a few to get curious about the conflicts these airplane represent. We need to infect the younger crowd and that's what the jets do.

EAA has a unique opportunity that few other organizations have. Unlike AOPA and its expo programs which are targeted at pilots, Oshkosh has turned into an event for anyone with even a passing interest in aviation. I would like to see EAA take on the challenge and responsibility to use Airventure, and especially the airshows, to show the non flying public what aviation is all about, GA, commercial, and military. I'm not claiming to know exactly how to change things to make that happen, but let's not miss the opportunity at a critical stage in the history of general aviation. We need everyone on our side we can get.

[Paul Chandler]

Having been to 9 consecutive shows I do find the aerobatic routines a bit of a turn off. Small planes that are distant and with the amount of smoke produced often hideing the aircraft does not make for good viewing / photography. If the wind blows the smoke on the crowd then that is even worse.

There are many of the vintage types that I would rather see flying, particularly as few vintage types make it down t0 27/09 to depart and the 36/18 runway is poor for photography until well into the afternoon. As sure many vintage owner groups would love to be given the opportunity to showcase their type - Cessna 195, Globe Swift, Ercoupe, Stinson etc would make a refreshing change from the drone of another aerobatic type. It would have been great to see the Electra's fly and the Vega (did get some shots of it departing but that was just by being in the right place at the right time)

There is a place for the aerobatics but having one act after the other doing similar things does not hold my interest for long.

[dbarnes612]

Variety is what does it for me after many years of attending. Would love to see a glider acro act again, if someone has taken up where Oscar Bosch and Manfred Radius left off.

[nigel hitchman]

Bill N222AB, I agree with your comments when considered in terms of a normal small airshow where there are a few aerobatic performers a few warbirds and a few aircraft on static display, but that is not Oshkosh!
Oshkosh is not just an airshow, it is so much more. the thunderbirds, blue Angles and other military teams put on many displays every year to which the public can go to if they want. The Thunderbirds were even fairly close by in Rockford in June.
Oshkosh has so much more, such a vast array of wonderful unique aircraft, we don't need the usual airshow stuff that you can see every weekend across the country. We can be different and so much better. People should come to Oshkosh to see what Oshkosh is about, the homebuilts the vintage, the warbirds, even some jets, the ultralights etc and even some aerobatics. Oshkosh attracts people from all over the world to the unique event to see all these great aircraft that the members bring and this is what we want to see. There are hundreds of other great events where we can introduce apparently uninterested kids to aviation if they need the attraction of the thunderbirds etc, but surely there is already well enough at Oshkosh to attract anyone with even just a small interest.

oh for those that are interested in photos of their aircraft landing at Oshkosh, I have quite a few, but only homebuilt.s, antiques and warbirds that happened to come past when I was near the runway, which was generally 27 lunchtime on a few days and 36 in the evenings, I've probably got more departures than arrivals too. 36 is a problem in the morning due to the sun, we need to be on the other side, but then 36R would be in the way! And the FAA aren't going to let you out there anyway!
i haven't seen those vintage plaques for a while, hopefully the quality of the photos have improved in recent years, but I did see someone driving round in a truck taking photos and into the sun, so maybe they are just as bad!

[Jim Rosenow]

Well said regarding the differences between OSH and an 'airshow', Nigel....concur! Would add that any difference that OSH has in bringing people into aviation is relatively local, while Young Eagles, etc can affect at the nation-wide, if not international level. I would rather have the convention aspect back in return for the investment we (personally and as a group of members) make in those programs.

On the subject of arrival photos...Google is your friend. After our OSH visit in 2009, I did a search on the N-number of the 172 we had (just bored one day) and found this posted this to the web....

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000364024.html

Don't know who you are Mark Pasqualino, but thanks!!! Being the geeks we all are, I'm sure most of you have tried that, tho!

Jim
EAA 64315

[Byron J. Covey]

I've reconciled myself to the idea the Oshkosh has devolved into a five day event for EAA'ers, and a two day event for the general public.

Hoping that the trend stops there, and it doesn't become a seven day event for the general public.

[jhausch]

The high energy show likely helps bring in that last few percent of revenue and draw the general public. I think they could compress that portion a little bit and make it even more exciting. This is my thought - put the "review flights" and stuff interesting to the real wing-nuts (like myself) at the beginning and don't advertise the start of the "airshow" until one hour in...

I imagine the program and announcements talking about, "todays review will be X, Y, and Z starting at 3pm; followed by the action packed airshow at 4pm"

Another idea would be to center the "review" portion a bit North or South of typical airshow center.

The alternative would be a totally separate time for these things. I would guess the big challenge is that its much easier to have one "field is closed for the show" time than two of such times.

[FlyingRon]

I can tell you the review is going to be pretty much as it is now for the various reviews. You can't go north or you won't be able to use 9/27 for anything while this is going on. Where it is now, is already centered pretty far south as far as the rest of the show is concerned.

[flight51]

I’ve been coming to Oshkosh on and off for about 25 years. I tend to not have time for the airshows and only see them incidental to other activities. I agree that the acro acts all seem the same. I did catch one of the night airshows and a couple of the Tbird shows. It's nice to have the Tbirds but I prefer the Blue Angels. My biggest frustration with the airshow is summed up in one word… Noise. I find myself trying to listen to a forum or talk to a vendor only to be repeatedly drowned out by too much airshow noise. I’m not looking to eliminate all noise just tone it down a bit. My vote would be to limit airshow flying in the early afternoon to those aircraft that do not have a large noise footprint.... No prop tips going supersonic ( that means no T6s, acros etc) and no jets booming around. We could keep the lid on the big noise until about 4pm when the forums and venders are closing up shop then let ’em rip and make all the noise you want. This is especially true during the week. That would allow a little more homebuilt review and other activities that others have suggested. Just my 2 bits...

I will give EAA kudos for getting rid of the hot rod dyno that was just across the street from the forums a few years ago. It just didn’t make sense to me to put that noise next to the forums and workshops where people already struggle to hear presenters.
Everett

[FlyingRon]

Noise is a perennial problem during the forums and it's not limited to the airshow. I've been in morning forums when an F16 or something makes a low pass or even a flight of four T-28's is a hell of a racket, but this whole even is about AVIATION. The speakers pause and let the plane pass and then go on.

If you don't like airplane noise, Oshkosh is not the place to go.

[TedK]

The speakers pause and let the plane pass and then go on.

If only that were the case.

There is a marked difference between pausing for a moment and having an entire forum or workshop unintelligible due to near continual noises.

it seems to me we are moving from the purr, growl, roar and occasional scream to persistent overwhelming noise. If we intend to have so many skyrippers present, then I suggest we consider how this impacts the convention side of Airventure, and adjust the calculus to attempt to find an accommodation acceptable to all.

Beyond the airplane sounds, I think we need to tone down the blasting background music that makes it sound like a Carny ride instead of the Big Tent of aviation.

[Byron J. Covey]

The helicopters that sell rides out of Pioneer Airport were a major problem during several forums that I attended.

[skyfixer8]

Kyle, I agree with you on the airshows. I have been attending Oshkosh since before the days when members only were allowed to roam among the planes, and the airshow was something to watch. I do spend more time at the ultralight runway now a days. I also noticed more people watching there this year than in years past. More action there.

Bill
Gwinn Michigan

[L16 Pilot]

One of my most memorable moments at Oshkosh was watching Bob Hoover doing a 16 point roll in a T-33. Not to mention his aerobatics in the yellow Mustang and the Shrike. Is that guy talented or what? It does seem like the present airshow performers are pretty much" more of the same". Off the thread here but Bill (Gwinn, Michigan), I spent two years at Kinross AFB during 1958-59 with a short stint at KI Sawyer. Hadn't thought of Gwinn and the UP for years. Beautiful country. Those were F102 ADC days speaking of noise (afterburners).

[FlyingRon]

There were some good acts I'd love to see back. I doubt Mr. Hoover is up to his old act (was he at Airventure this year? I didn't see him at the Hilton which is one of his usual haunts). It's still amazing that whatever room full of aviators he walks into gets instantly quiet in admiration. Nobody else commands this (and this was a dinner I was at with several of the current performers like Sean Tucker, and other notables like Sully and Jim Lovell, etc...).

I actually thought they did spruce up the airshow this year. It was different. I frnakly however, could do with less T-6 formation stuff (Aeroshell is kind of ho hum and Geico is even worse). I'd like to see an group act like the old Eagles or soemthing flying pitt's or similar. There was always the novelty guy...who was that guy who had wheels on top of the wing of his biplane and would land and takeoff upside down.

[skyfixer8]

Off the thread here too L16. I spent almost 10 years at KI. retired from AF here from SAC. I keep wondering when EAA will get a real war bird to fly over, simulated bomb drops etc. I am talking B-52. Worked them before, during and after Viet Nam.

[L16 Pilot]

Yup! My room at Ki was directly across from the chapel. We were TDY while the runways were being extended at Kinross. I loved the UP (except the winter weather) and I took my kids up to Kinross to show them where I spent a couple of years and found out it is now a prison of sort (that raised a few eyebrows). Several years ago I landed my Cherokee at Kinross just for old times sake. Mike