Why is there a Tower at Oshkosh?

[Bill Berson]

I have been checking the Oshkosh webcams every day all this week. Lots of cars and golfcart activity, but not a single airplane movement was seen in hours of looking.
Why do they need a tower?

Sure, a temporary tower is needed one week of the year (like at Arlington), but why have a tower 51 weeks of the year?
Must be boring sitting in the Tower. The operations are way below most airports that don't have towers.

I feel the $31 million spent on the tower could have built a dozen new airports.

[Aaron Novak]

Bill,
KOSH is not dead by any means the rest of the year, it is nice and quiet though.

[Bill Berson]

Bill,
KOSH is not dead by any means the rest of the year, it is nice and quiet though.

So why is a tower needed? Towers intimidate many pilots that only fly for fun.

Consider that private aviation is entering a slow death. And EAA created the Sport Pilot program to stimulate entry.
But Basic Sport Pilots can't fly into towered airports. Does keeping a tower at Osh help stimulate Sport activity at Oshkosh? No, it prevents these operations.

51 weeks of the year, ultralights are not allowed at Oshkosh. (Maybe with special clearance)
But during Airventure, ultralights and Sport Pilots do get a special FAA waiver to enter without radios and can enter only on the busiest week of the year!

Isn't it odd that the headquarters of EAA does not have a year round Sport and ultralight landing strip on site?
If they can't eliminate the tower, at least they could provide for year-round non-radio Sport operations in a designated area like they do for the week of Airventure.

[Aaron Novak]

So why is a tower needed? Towers intimidate many pilots that only fly for fun.

Consider that private aviation is entering a slow death. And EAA created the Sport Pilot program to stimulate entry.
But Basic Sport Pilots can't fly into towered airports. Does keeping a tower at Osh help stimulate Sport activity at Oshkosh? No, it prevents these operations.

51 weeks of the year, ultralights are not allowed at Oshkosh. (Maybe with special clearance)
But during Airventure, ultralights and Sport Pilots do get a special FAA waiver to enter without radios and can enter only on the busiest week of the year!

Isn't it odd that the headquarters of EAA does not have a year round Sport and ultralight landing strip on site?
If they can't eliminate the tower, at least they could provide for year-round non-radio Sport operations in a designated area like they do for the week of Airventure.

Bill,
There are other strips nearby for that. The headquarters of the eaa is the museum building, not the airport. Honestly I cannot understand why this bothers you? Is KOSH your home field? Whats the issue with a radio, I know a few guys that carry a handheld and nothing more.

[Joe Delene]

I can think of a handful of airports in the region that have a tower with light traffic. Then there are some 'uncontrolled' fields that seem to have more traffic. I do think that certain types of operators(121/135 flights) would rather operate to a controlled field.

We had the sequester last year that almost closed a few towers. I didn't lose any sleep over it.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a forestry official when they changed the regulations to ban ATVs from many Federal 'Forest Service' roads. Mind you these roads may see one vehicle ever 30 minutes(or less) during the off season. The main reason listed was safety from collision. His response was that I could send a letter to headquarters in Wash D.C..

[TedK]

Look at the runway config at KOSH. You have 4 runways, the longest of which is nearly invisible from the others. Plus you have Pioneer Field just over the trees. I am not particularly a fan of towered fields, but I would say that the runway configuration argues for a Tower. The last place we need a mid-air or crash due to runway incursion is at the EAA HQ's home airport.

OTOH, I really have a hard time understanding why there is a control tower at airports that have only a single runway, no matter how much traffic.

[Fastcapy]

As a tenant at kosh, I will tell you summer months its a bit slow. However, when the tech school is in session they fly a ton. I also totally agree with Ted. In addition to the runway layout there is a ton of places that there would be conflicts between aircraft with ground (taxi) ops. The layout is somewhat complicated, especially to pilots who haven't been here before and don't have the diagram on hand. I hear people needing progressive taxi instructions all the time. So it isn't all about the amount of traffic rather the airport layout that I like the tower here.

As for pilots being afraid of towered airports, that's just an excuse. Oshkosh tower is not like o'hare or even Milwaukee. It is pretty laid back and easy going. There is nothing be afraid of.

Also, I may be wrong but I though sport pilots could get a tower endorsement to fly into towered fields.

[Fastcapy]

Btw, last evening there was a ton of local traffic flying around tying to get in a last flight or two before the notam goes into effect

[Bill Berson]

Bill,
There are other strips nearby for that. The headquarters of the eaa is the museum building, not the airport. Honestly I cannot understand why this bothers you? Is KOSH your home field? Whats the issue with a radio, I know a few guys that carry a handheld and nothing more.

My home airport is Jefferson County International (0S9). No radio is required here. So we have a lot of vintage, antique, sport and ultralight traffic. The museum here doesn't use radios in any of their older aircraft, including trainers.

I honestly can't understand why you feel it is no problem that these vintage, antique, sport and ultralight aircraft don't have access to the airport at Oshkosh, year round.
If they can allow no radio access during busy Airventure, why not a similar procedure for year round?
Sure, a bit of common sense is needed, such as keeping the sport planes separated (much as they mandate in the NOTAM). Just keep the same procedure all year.

Arlington has multiple intersecting runways with extra parallel grass strips for airplanes and another strip just for gliders.
Pilots seem to manage without a tower.

[Jonathan Harger]

I honestly can't understand why you feel it is no problem that these vintage, antique, sport and ultralight aircraft don't have access to the airport at Oshkosh, year round.


Sir,

All of those aircarft have access to KOSH year round. Why do you think otherwise?
It is true that many pilots prefer to seek out other, turf fields in the area for their flight ops... but they are very welcome at KOSH.

[Aaron Novak]

My home airport is Jefferson County International (0S9). No radio is required here. So we have a lot of vintage, antique, sport and ultralight traffic. The museum here doesn't use radios in any of their older aircraft, including trainers.

I honestly can't understand why you feel it is no problem that these vintage, antique, sport and ultralight aircraft don't have access to the airport at Oshkosh, year round.
If they can allow no radio access during busy Airventure, why not a similar procedure for year round?
Sure, a bit of common sense is needed, such as keeping the sport planes separated (much as they mandate in the NOTAM). Just keep the same procedure all year.

Arlington has multiple intersecting runways with extra parallel grass strips for airplanes and another strip just for gliders.
Pilots seem to manage without a tower.

?????

Bill,
There are antiques and light sport here year round for sure. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Ultralights we don't see much of in the area at any field.

[Bill Berson]

Sir,

All of those aircarft have access to KOSH year round. Why do you think otherwise?
It is true that many pilots prefer to seek out other, turf fields in the area for their flight ops... but they are very welcome at KOSH.
It's not the lack of grass airstrip, but that is an issue. I am talking about no radio sport planes. Some pilots just don't want to equip for a radio because the cockpit is just too noisy or they can't hear well or no electric system or they just almost never use a radio so not current on the procedure. Pilots that fly for fun don't fly into tower fields and choose other strips, as you said.
How much trouble is operating at KOSH year round with no radio? Is that possible?

[martymayes]

Why do they need a tower?

Because it meets the requirements for a control tower airport based on operations count and/or enplaned passengers. Once it meets the criteria, it's not an option.

BTW, you can obtain the annual operation counts from APO-110 with a FOIA request.

[Bill Berson]

Because it meets the requirements for a control tower airport based on operations count and/or enplaned passengers. Once it meets the criteria, it's not an option.

BTW, you can obtain the annual operation counts from APO-110 with a FOIA request.

Airnav shows 189 operations per day at KOSH. (Probably outdated)

So it could be number of passengers rather than the number of commercial flights?
Do you know how many passengers is required? And operations count needed?

[martymayes]

Has to be revenue passengers.
The Airnav data could be something supplied by the FBO, not necessarily credible.

The FAA publishes threshold values for establishing airspace and services and I think for most designations there is a biennial review required. I'll look it up when I get home.

[Bill Berson]

?????

Bill,
There are antiques and light sport here year round for sure. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Ultralights we don't see much of in the area at any field.

There are 60 ultralights and 45 gliders based at Arlington (AWO) which is without class D airspace.
KOSH has no ultralights and no gliders because of the class D airspace, is my assertion.

Why can't this be changed to allow these operations at KOSH (in a restricted area)?
Not for me personally. I am just an advocate for Sport Aviation nationwide.

[Frank Giger]

Q: Why is there a Tower at Oshkosh?

A: The controllers kept falling off of the step ladders.

[Bill Berson]

?????

Bill,
There are antiques and light sport here year round for sure. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Ultralights we don't see much of in the area at any field.

Aaron,
I recently learned that the so called "Ultralight and LightSport" runway at Oshkosh is only open during the week of Airventure*. During Airventure week, the NOTAM provides a waiver to FAR103.17 and allows for this temporary grass strip with no radio contact with the Tower.

So the appearance to someone visiting Airventure is that ultralight and Light Sport activity is allowed and popular year round at Oshkosh, but the reality is that there is no ultralight activity at that field other than Airventure week. The same goes for Pioneer Airport, I think, which is only open a few days per year.
So my problem is really with the restrictions of class D airspace because it prevents ultralight and basic Sport Pilot activity over a wide area, typically near populated areas. Oshkosh is just one example.
Yes, antiques or any LSA can install a radio to operate at KOSH. But the LSA rule was created to allow basic navigation without a radio. As far as I know, no LSA are based at KOSH without a radio. So the LSA rule isn't working as intended in this case. If private aviation is to be saved, close inspection of entry bottlenecks is desired, in my opinion.
Thanks for your interest. I hope to volunteer at the ultralight field in a few days.
Have fun at Airventure.

* if incorrect, please advise

[Sam Buchanan]

But the LSA rule was created to allow basic navigation without a radio.

* if incorrect, please advise

I think this premise is incorrect. "Basic navigation without a radio" has always been allowed under the current FARs for any pilot. We were trained in how to use pilotage when we were pursuing the private pilot license.

There are several reasons why the Sport Pilot certificate was initiated, but the above reason was not one of them.

[WLIU]

"an FOIA request"

The information for all airports with control towers is on the FAA web site as the Air Traffic Activity System.

The report for OSH, year 2013, does not include AirVenture, but shows that the ATCT handled 89,474 total operations.

Itinerant
45,547 general aviation
1,774 air taxi
465 military

Local
41,385 civil
303 military

The most recent FAA policy statement, from the negotiations over shutting down contract towers, was that an airport qualified for a control tower when there were 150,000 operations per year. This number is actually modified by "economic impact" factors. I will guess that EAA and AirVenture qualify as "economic impact" for the purposes of maintaining a full time tower presence.

If your airport has a control tower, you can look yourself up on the FAA web site and see what your official activity level is.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Fastcapy]

I personally know of 2 or 3 planes without radio or electrical based here. They simply use a handheld. Simple as that. Saying people don't fly here for fun is lame. The majority of us here have planes that are for fun flying.

[Sam Buchanan]

So the appearance to someone visiting Airventure is that ultralight and Light Sport activity is allowed and popular year round at Oshkosh, but the reality is that there is no ultralight activity at that field other than Airventure week. The same goes for Pioneer Airport, I think, which is only open a few days per year.

If the 'typical' visitor jumps to that conclusion, then I guess he will also assume that parking on the grass adjacent to the runway and pitching a tent is also "allowed and popular year round at Oshkosh".

Bill, you are using dubious logic to support a point you are trying to make. I understand your frustration but your argument would be enhanced if based on fact.

In any case I'm glad to see you will be spending time down at the farm (!) and hope you have a most enjoyable week with the folks who appreciate low-stress flying. :)

[cub builder]

You guys can fault Bills logic here, but he does bring up a valid point. There are a lot of pilots out there that fly just for sport that don't fly with radios and are really nervous dealing with the a tower on the radio. If you have ever tried to use a hand held radio in an open cockpit plane, it's a challenge to hear or be understood. Dealing with a tower is a hindrance to a number of pilots. As to the normal work day traffic at Oshkosh, I can't comment on that. However, his point is that it would be nice if Ultralights and other non-electric sport aircraft could operate out of KOSH without the use of the tower as it would be more welcoming to that class of aircraft. I get it. I flew for 13 years and coast to coast sans electric systems and radios. I didn't even own a headset. When I got back to flying with electrics and radios, I was highly uncomfortable dealing with control towers for some time.

-CubBuilder

[miemsed]

You guys can fault Bills logic here, but he does bring up a valid point. There are a lot of pilots out there that fly just for sport that don't fly with radios and are really nervous dealing with the a tower on the radio. If you have ever tried to use a hand held radio in an open cockpit plane, it's a challenge to hear or be understood. Dealing with a tower is a hindrance to a number of pilots. As to the normal work day traffic at Oshkosh, I can't comment on that. However, his point is that it would be nice if Ultralights and other non-electric sport aircraft could operate out of KOSH without the use of the tower as it would be more welcoming to that class of aircraft. I get it. I flew for 13 years and coast to coast sans electric systems and radios. I didn't even own a headset. When I got back to flying with electrics and radios, I was highly uncomfortable dealing with control towers for some time.

-CubBuilder

Well it would be nice if they could operate at many airports that they cannot. If they are flying just for sport, there are airports they cannot go into without a radio. Oshkosh is one of them. I guess I do not see the problem. Unfortunately that is the rule. The option would be to eliminate the tower so he can land there and I hope he is not suggesting that but just voicing his frustration at not being able to land there. I understand the frustration but there is not a reasonable fix for the problem.

[martymayes]

However, his point is that it would be nice if Ultralights and other non-electric sport aircraft could operate out of KOSH without the use of the tower as it would be more welcoming to that class of aircraft. I get it.

All I'm getting is that because it's KOSH and only because it's KOSH there should be an exception??

Because of the EAA connection, some may think of KOSH as the representative airport for non-electric and sport aircraft but the reality is outside a couple weeks in July, KOSH is just another airport. Operation numbers indicate an ATCT is required to maintain an adequate level of safety and that's why they have a tower.
There's no reason why an ultralight operator can't go to the facility and ask to have some of the rules waived so he could fly in/out in his NORDO ultralight. However, I'll bet the demand for that type activity isn't very high.

[Frank Giger]

Can we stop confusing Sport Pilots, LSA aircraft, and NORDO operations, please?

They are only casually related. For instance, I'm a Sport Pilot, and my aircraft is an LSA. Whether I fly into controlled airspace has only to do with my own endorsement, not my aircraft's gross allowable weight.

A Cub or Champ can land at KOSH any day of the year (outside of AirVenture limitations due to airshows) - it only needs a radio and a pilot endorsed for operating in controlled airspace.

I think the original topic is about the grass strip in particular, not the airfield in general.

[Bill Berson]

I am back from Airventure 2014 and had a great time and learned a few new things about KOSH operations. A volunteer from Pioneer Airport told me that it operates on special occasions only and with special procedures. I think this is sad that a nice grass airstrip exists that can't be used daily.
He said Pioneer Airport was the only airport within an airport in the US, but some might exist in Canada. Again, that is sad, we need grass strips at every major airport with operational procedures to allow no radio sport operations safely.

I operated for years at Birchwood Airport (20 north of Anchorage, Ak.) which has a paved main runway for GA, a special gravel/snow strip for ski planes or big tires, and the ultralights are authorized to operate off the east taxiway. These procedures are detailed in the Airman's Supplement. No tower, but very busy with flight training and over 300 airplanes based. Most pilots use CTAF. But it was determined that ultralights should not use the radio because of too much chatter. Instead, ultralights are required to stay east and avoid simultaneous parallel final approach. This has worked for some 20 years or more. It frustrates me that other airports don't accommodate all sport aircraft like this.

Since Airventure had no radio ultralight operations during the busiest week on the ultralight strip, why not year round?
I think this is important and not trivial. At Airventure 2014, the Valdez STOL was a huge hit. They replayed it again at the ultralight strip on Friday where a huge croud of about 2000 got up close to watch. Not possible to get close to runway 18.

The ultralight runway has morphed into LightSport and now for 2014 it is "Fun Zone" and includes certified Piper Cubs. All without radio control. I like this, it gets the crowds up close. It could even be expanded further to include antiques. How cool would it be to see a Jenny or Blerio fly at Airventure? Like Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome.

The normal (other than Airventure)hours for class D at KOSH is 0600-2200 (tel:0600-2200). The hours could probably be reduced to only the busier part of the day ( if there is a busy time). That would allow no radio operations in the calm mornings.

To set an example for promoting sport aviation, I strongly feel EAA should push for a permanent grass strip at KOSH with procedures for no radio operations.

[Aaron Novak]

Bill,
I understand your frustration, but there are so many non-radio grass strips right around Oshkosh, I cant see the justification for another. You have to remember that Kosh is pretty laid back the rest of the year. Plus I cant see the county maintaining a grass strip or being able to justify the cost. I think if you actually lived here, you would understand.

[FlyingRon]

Yep, you can go into 79C or 8D1 quite easily. Neither is more than 15 miles from KOSH.

[krw920]

Yep, you can go into 79C or 8D1 quite easily. Neither is more than 15 miles from KOSH.

15 miles is a long walk to KOSH! :rollseyes:

[FlyingRon]

15 miles is a long walk to KOSH! :rollseyes:
Especially from 8D1 when you have to wade across the lake.

But I didn't thing we were talking about actually needing to be at Oshkosh, just using the airport for grass field ops for the sake of flying.

[Bill Berson]

Bill,
I understand your frustration, but there are so many non-radio grass strips right around Oshkosh, I cant see the justification for another. You have to remember that Kosh is pretty laid back the rest of the year. Plus I cant see the county maintaining a grass strip or being able to justify the cost. I think if you actually lived here, you would understand.
I actually do live there one week of the year. That is why I feel I have as much right to comment as anyone. As it is now, I can fly a non radio airplane into Airventure on Sat or Sunday before it opens. But can't fly in a week before the NOTAM.

[FlyingRon]

You can only fly a non-radio aircraft if you can make it into the UL runway. The FAA strongly discourages NORDO approaches to the regular runways (it used to be they had a published procedure for this, essentially similar to the WARBIRD arrival) but the deprecated that years ago.

[Bill Berson]

You can only fly a non-radio aircraft if you can make it into the UL runway. The FAA strongly discourages NORDO approaches to the regular runways (it used to be they had a published procedure for this, essentially similar to the WARBIRD arrival) but the deprecated that years ago.
Yeh, you can fly a non - radio aircraft or ultralight vehicle into the ultralight runway on Saturday or sunday before the show starts but not a week before or any other time, as far as I know.

[Aaron Novak]

Yeh, you can fly a non - radio aircraft or ultralight vehicle into the ultralight runway on Saturday or sunday before the show starts but not a week before or any other time, as far as I know.

So you visit a county owned airport for a week a year, and expect them to cater to you for the other 51? I fail to see any reasoning for that. EAA doesn't own Wittman by any stretch of the imagination. If there were that big of a demand for a non controlled area, it would be there already for the locals. Obviously there is not.

[miemsed]

If you really want to land at controlled fields, could you install a radio or do you not have an electrical system. I do not recall what you said you were flying.

[Bill Berson]

So you visit a county owned airport for a week a year, and expect them to cater to you for the other 51? I fail to see any reasoning for that. EAA doesn't own Wittman by any stretch of the imagination. If there were that big of a demand for a non controlled area, it would be there already for the locals. Obviously there is not.
Aaron, what I expect is that EAA should cater to all aviation and especially Sport Aviation not business aviation. And EAA should be working to see that all local public airports are open to sport aviation where possible. I don't expect Sport Aviation at ORD, but KOSH should be open to non radio sport pilots in some way. I checked the KOSH live cams yesterday, and didn't see any air traffic at all, just two days after Airventure.

I am still trying to find current numbers for KOSH revenue operations.
I just read an article in my local paper here, it said my local airport has had it's scheduled air service cut from 6 flights down to two per day. There never was a tower here. ( Fairchild International, Port Angeles, WA.)

edit, according to Wikipedia, KOSH doesn't have airline service now since 2003. So I remain confused why the Class D remains.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittman_Regional_Airport

[Bill Berson]

If you really want to land at controlled fields, could you install a radio or do you not have an electrical system. I do not recall what you said you were flying.
My airplane has a radio, I have a CPL. This is not about me.
My comments here are not for me, but for the future Sport Pilots that get a basic Sport Pilot certificate and choose to fly without a radio as was the intent of the Sport Pilot rule.

[miemsed]

My airplane has a radio, I have a CPL. This is not about me.
My comments here are not for me, but for the future Sport Pilots that get a basic Sport Pilot certificate and choose to fly without a radio as was the intent of the Sport Pilot rule.

Ok sorry I missed that you had a radio. Future sport pilots will know they cannot land a controlled fields. A look at a sectional where I live shows many uncontrolled grass and paved strips for non radio aircraft to land. I have no desire at all to fly without a radio but if I did, I could find plenty of places to land.

[Aaron Novak]

Aaron, what I expect is that EAA should cater to all aviation and especially Sport Aviation not business aviation. And EAA should be working to see that all local public airports are open to sport aviation where possible. I don't expect Sport Aviation at ORD, but KOSH should be open to non radio sport pilots in some way. I checked the KOSH live cams yesterday, and didn't see any air traffic at all, just two days after Airventure.

I am still trying to find current numbers for KOSH revenue operations.
I just read an article in my local paper here, it said my local airport has had it's scheduled air service cut from 6 flights down to two per day. There never was a tower here. ( Fairchild International, Port Angeles, WA.)

edit, according to Wikipedia, KOSH doesn't have airline service now since 2003. So I remain confused why the Class D remains.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittman_Regional_Airport

Bill,
EAA is not Wittman Regional Airport. If you have an issue with KOSH, take it up with Winnebago County. Ive got an idea for you Bill, move here, build a hangar, make KOSH your field, then come to the county board meetings, bring up your ideas and proposals including how to absorb the added cost of a grass strip and such. Let the board consider and vote on it. If you are so deeply concerned about this, then im sure you will have no problem devoting yourself to the cause. Im not being sarcastic either....like Henry Ford said "Find a solution, as anybody can complain".

[Bill Berson]

Bill,
EAA is not Wittman Regional Airport. If you have an issue with KOSH, take it up with Winnebago County. Ive got an idea for you Bill, move here, build a hangar, make KOSH your field, then come to the county board meetings, bring up your ideas and proposals including how to absorb the added cost of a grass strip and such. Let the board consider and vote on it. If you are so deeply concerned about this, then im sure you will have no problem devoting yourself to the cause. Im not being sarcastic either....like Henry Ford said "Find a solution, as anybody can complain".
I have considered moving to KOSH to start a Sport Aviation business. The class D airspace is a problem.
EAA already has a grass airstrip called Pioneer Airport. The cost of a grass strip can't be excessive.

As I said before, my comments and ideas voiced on this forum are in support of entry level sport aviation world wide.
I guess CubGuy (sorry forgot exact name) is the only one here that "gets it".

[Aaron Novak]

I have considered moving to KOSH to start a Sport Aviation business. The class D airspace is a problem.
EAA already has a grass airstrip called Pioneer Airport. The cost of a grass strip can't be excessive.

As I said before, my comments and ideas voiced on this forum are in support of entry level sport aviation world wide.
I guess CubGuy (sorry forgot exact name) is the only one here that "gets it".

Bill,
Trust me I get where you are coming from. There are at least 4 private grass strips within a few miles of Oshkosh that have very active "grass roots" sport aviation. Some have radios, some not.

[Fastcapy]

Like Aaron said, there is even a small grass strip just north of town. They run cubs out of there all the time. It's literally just outside the class D. I do agree that the tower hours could be reduced, however I don't see the need for 24 /7, year round, no radio grass strips there

[Dave Stadt]

Aaron, what I expect is that EAA should cater to all aviation and especially Sport Aviation not business aviation. And EAA should be working to see that all local public airports are open to sport aviation where possible. I don't expect Sport Aviation at ORD, but KOSH should be open to non radio sport pilots in some way. I checked the KOSH live cams yesterday, and didn't see any air traffic at all, just two days after Airventure.

I am still trying to find current numbers for KOSH revenue operations.
I just read an article in my local paper here, it said my local airport has had it's scheduled air service cut from 6 flights down to two per day. There never was a tower here. ( Fairchild International, Port Angeles, WA.)

edit, according to Wikipedia, KOSH doesn't have airline service now since 2003. So I remain confused why the Class D remains.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittman_Regional_Airport

Airline service is not a requirement to justify a Class D airspace. I would guess the vast majority of Class D airports do not have airline service. Of the 6 class D airports in the vicinity of where I fly none have scheduled airline service.

[FlyingRon]

Yep, FDK for example has never (at least in any modern memory) had air service and it got a tower. Same thing with HEF, MTN, or MRB in the DC Area.

As pointed out, despite appearances at times, the EAA does not own Winnebago County or the OSH airport. Even owning the grass at Pioneer Field doesn't get them out of the fact that it is in the middle of class D airspace.

[martymayes]

edit, according to Wikipedia, KOSH doesn't have airline service now since 2003. So I remain confused why the Class D remains.


A control tower doesn't come and go with airline service. If traffic counts at Wittman field went to zero, the tower would remain in operation for at least another 3 yrs unless there was some kind of exception. An example would be if the airport closed completely, then the tower would be put on a program to be phased out.

[Bill Berson]

A control tower doesn't come and go with airline service. If traffic counts at Wittman field went to zero, the tower would remain in operation for at least another 3 yrs unless there was some kind of exception. An example would be if the airport closed completely, then the tower would be put on a program to be phased out.

Does that make any sense with a Federal debt of $17 trillion and the FAA collecting user fees?
Folks, this country is going broke. It is like aviation is at the stage when early autos needed a cop at every intersection.
I suspect pilots don't need a tower at most of the airports mentioned. Certainly not Oshkosh from what I see.

If the rule is that a tower remains open even with zero operations then that is insanity. I don't know what else to say.

[Mayhemxpc]

OK, I have to share an anecdote. Some years ago, I was instructing for the CAP National Flight Academy at OSH (about two weeks after AirVenture.) I was doing bumps and circuits at New Holstein with three and sometime four other airplanes. We all had a good time, maintaining SA for one another and in constant communication. Then we went hack to OSH. There were three airplanes in the pattern for 36. I became the 4th. The stress level of the tower operator rose noticeably. One more plane asked to enter the pattern and the operator lost control. We were extended way out, instructions to different aircraft became confused, and at one time I was instructed to do a 360 for spacing on downwind, which gave me a real close up view of the airplane next behind me. (The Air Force Safety Officer, who saw this, remarked that the pattern is not a good place for air-combat maneuvers.) When we landed, one of my student pilots said, "Sir, you know what would really improve safety here at Oshkosh? CLOSE THE TOWER!" Not that I am advocating that...I am not, but it is a good anecdote. -- Chris Mayer N424AF

[martymayes]

OK, I have to share an anecdote. Some years ago, I was instructing for the CAP National Flight Academy at OSH (about two weeks after AirVenture.) I was doing bumps and circuits at New Holstein with three and sometime four other airplanes. We all had a good time, maintaining SA for one another and in constant communication. Then we went hack to OSH. There were three airplanes in the pattern for 36. I became the 4th. The stress level of the tower operator rose noticeably. One more plane asked to enter the pattern and the operator lost control. We were extended way out, instructions to different aircraft became confused, and at one time I was instructed to do a 360 for spacing on downwind, which gave me a real close up view of the airplane next behind me. (The Air Force Safety Officer, who saw this, remarked that the pattern is not a good place for air-combat maneuvers.) When we landed, one of my student pilots said, "Sir, you know what would really improve safety here at Oshkosh? CLOSE THE TOWER!" Not that I am advocating that...I am not, but it is a good anecdote. -- Chris Mayer N424AF
Perhaps all that was needed was a better trained / more experienced controller?

[Mayhemxpc]

Of course.

[OshkoshPilot]

Look at the runway config at KOSH. You have 4 runways, the longest of which is nearly invisible from the others. Plus you have Pioneer Field just over the trees. I am not particularly a fan of towered fields, but I would say that the runway configuration argues for a Tower. The last place we need a mid-air or crash due to runway incursion is at the EAA HQ's home airport.

OTOH, I really have a hard time understanding why there is a control tower at airports that have only a single runway, no matter how much traffic.

As for flying in Oshkosh outside of the AirVenture Week, there are times when I am thankful to have ATC on field. I recently received my Private Pilot License, at uncontrolled Clintonville, WI, but all of my training has been done through Oshkosh. I am not necessarily intimidated to talk to Class D ATC, as it is relatively simple.

KOSH has a flight school with 5 C-172's and 2 BE-76 (Dutchess). In the Fall when the Private students are flying, it gets busy on 27. If you through in traffic on 36 doing a practice ILS approach, and have Pioneer active, you can see how it can be nice to have a tower reminding you that "Call Sign, your NO. 2 following a Baron, Cleared to land." It could get stressful for a student pilot with this much traffic when you don't have a tower.

Please remember to keep a lookout for traffic no matter what the radio says.

Heads Up! Fly Right!

[Frank Giger]

My airplane has a radio, I have a CPL. This is not about me.
My comments here are not for me, but for the future Sport Pilots that get a basic Sport Pilot certificate and choose to fly without a radio as was the intent of the Sport Pilot rule.

Um, let's clarify a little.

Part of the Sport Pilot requirements are radio communications, so clearly there is an intent on the part of the FAA for SP's to use a radio. It's more accurate to say the intent is for SP's to fly out of uncontrolled airfields, as flying into controlled airspace is a separate endorsement.

A Sport Pilot student couldn't use a radio or tried to avoid it by saying they're optional at uncontrolled airfields he'd do poorly on the written exam, oral exam, and probably blow the check ride.

[Bill Berson]

Um, let's clarify a little.

Part of the Sport Pilot requirements are radio communications, so clearly there is an intent on the part of the FAA for SP's to use a radio. It's more accurate to say the intent is for SP's to fly out of uncontrolled airfields, as flying into controlled airspace is a separate endorsement.

A Sport Pilot student couldn't use a radio or tried to avoid it by saying they're optional at uncontrolled airfields he'd do poorly on the written exam, oral exam, and probably blow the check ride.
Frank, not sure about what you are saying.
Are you saying the Sport Pilot student must take a check ride in a radio equipped airplane and demonstrate the use of the radio?

OshkoshPilot-
Oshkosh should have an area or runway where no radio operations are allowed with proper procedures just as they do for Airventure week. Runway 5/23 should be closed and then Pioneer Airport could be used with a separate pattern for Sport Pilots without radio, with no intersecting flight paths.

[Frank Giger]

Well, it's mandatory for single seat aircraft (though I don't know any examiner that would agree to a checkride where he's on the ground), but how else is one going to pass Section III A of the check ride performance standards ("A. Radio Communications (ASEL and ASES)") without one?

Here's a link to the check ride standards: https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-29.pdf

In both the written and the oral exam radio procedures are covered (as are transponder codes) as well.



If the aircraft isn't equipped with a radio, the student has to "orally demonstrate" he knows the proper procedures. Basically give out all the radio calls based on an aircraft's position in the pattern from takeoff through exiting the active after landing. So it's a wash - a Sport Pilot can't blow off learning how to use the radio in uncontrolled airfields.

Now, then, it would be a very unusual situation where an examiner tested someone in an aircraft without a radio or an intercom system. Very old school where he'd be either yelling in the student's ear or pointing to a performance checklist for what he wanted to see next.



While your vanilla SP isn't endorsed for controlled airspace, he is for uncontrolled airspace, which includes radio procedures. The intent is NOT to have SP's fly NORDO - I don't think one could ever get an FAA rep to say they don't think pilots of any kind should use a radio; I think they'd actively discourage NORDO ops.

My point is that tying NORDO operations with Sport Pilots is incorrect; PPL's fly NORDO as much as SP's do....it's based on the aircraft more than on the type of rating one has. A "pure" J3 Cub with no hand held radio installed can be flown by more than Sport Pilots (and most aren't flown by SP's).

The inverse is true as well. Just because a 747 could easily land at SEM outside of Selma (uncontrolled with dual 8,000 foot long concrete runways) NORDO, that doesn't mean it should. But I sure would like to see how big the pattern it would fly would be ("Craig Traffic, this is Boeing 34 Victor ten miles south, turning base to final, Craig Traffic")!

[Bill Berson]

Frank, thanks for the link. I learn something new every day. But that requirement for a radio in single seat and not for two seaters sort of defies logic at first thought.
With some thought, I think the requirement for a radio in the single seater could be a simple Radio Shack CB, since the requirement seems to be for communication with the examiner only for evaluating other tasks not radio procedure. (Since no actual radio use is required in a two seater with no radio).

From your comments, it sounds like you think all pilots should have and use a radio.
My view is that all airports should be accessible to pilots without a radio on some area of the airport. The patterns should be separated, as they are every year for a week at Airventure. Several airports have ultralight and Light Sport landing areas on the airport seperate from the main runway, such as Arlington, WA. and Birchwood in Alaska.
Why can't Oshkosh (the home of Sport Flying) demonstrate an airport layout example that includes operational procedures for no radio ultralights, Sport airplanes, antiques and others that don't have a need for the main runway?

[Frank Giger]

Several airports have ultralight and Light Sport landing areas on the airport seperate from the main runway, such as Arlington, WA. and Birchwood in Alaska.]

Um, I think those grass an gravel strips are for aircraft not best served by pavement, like in Alaska, where pavement chews up the very expensive tundra tires, or at other places where folks with Champs and Cubs don't like to land on it, or people with aircraft that have a wooden peg in the back instead of wheel (like WWI replicas).

Again, it's not specifically an LSA or ultralight issue - lots of planes that are neither like to use strips that aren't paved.

I wouldn't tie grass strips to NORDO ops, either.

On radios, I think pilots who can use them should use them. Handhelds are inexpensive and it's one more layer of safety. Not the first layer (the Mark One Eyeball) or the last layer (the Mark One Eyeball), but an easy one to add.

Mixing controlled airspace with uncontrolled airspace at the same field is a recipe for disaster, IMHO. Having some aircraft under direction of the tower on some strips and not under their control on others (let alone having them NORDO with no way for the tower to de-conflict if there's a problem) in close proximity like that screams runway incursion or collision ("I thought that was the NORDO strip, honest!).

Remember that the rules are written not for the best pilot, but the worst.

Oshkosh week is unique, as the NOTAM is hammered at people, and everyone who has the stones to fly in pays attention to it. Not so much for NOTAMS and special instructions the other 51 weeks of the year.

[Bill Berson]

Oshkosh week is unique, as the NOTAM is hammered at people, and everyone who has the stones to fly in pays attention to it. Not so much for NOTAMS and special instructions the other 51 weeks of the year.

It isn't that complicated. At Birchwood and Arlington the ultralights/light sport use one side of the airports airspace and the pattern for GA is on the other side. The locals know the pattern. Any GA pilot can read the Airport Directory.
The consensus is that the ultralights should not use the CTAF, just too much unneeded chatter. If everyone used the same runway it would be less safe, with vastly different approach speeds and pattern sizes.

Apparently, Oshkosh has 5 Cessna 172’s cranking out the future Commercial and a few Private Pilots for $150/hr or something. But no affordable Light Sport.
The Light Sport rule was created to help slow the pilot decline. But now ten years later it is a shame that very few airports accommodate a simple, cheap Light Sport for basic instruction. They are banned to the hinterlands where no customers live. The business model doesn't work.

[Frank Giger]

The hilarious part is that I put the idea into my CFI's head that he should buy a Champ and instruct tailwheel, as there are darned few in Central Alabama that will do it. So he did.

And made more money off the little Champ than he did in his C172 and had more fun doing it.

[Aaron Novak]

Bill, there is no money in SP for the airport. They are working pretty hard to bring in commercial and business aviation of some kind so they can actually pay the bills and keep the airport open. Unfortunately like it or not, keeping the airport actually open, is probably more important to the future of aviation than pleasing a handful of pilots that choose to fly without communication. Now maybe if there was a user fee for the uncontrolled area to help pay for it................

[WLIU]

The above is the uncomfortable reality of larger public airports. I find myself in the unexpected position these days of encouraging the airport management to bring more corporate jet traffic into our field. Airport management is crying poor when we lobby them to take care of cracking pavement around the hangars that house the recreational aviators. The two FBO's sell 600,000 gallons of Jet-A per year vs 250,000 gallons of 100LL. So with the airport getting fuel flowage fees on every gallon of fuel, and the jet operators buying fuel by the full truckload vs the recreational guys buying 20 gallons at a time, guess what the obvious focus of airport business needs to be? I wish the answer was LSA's and sport aviators, but to keep the doors open the answer is unfortunately more jets.

As they say in the movies "its just business". We do not have to like the numbers, but we do have to figure out a way to live and work with them.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bill Berson]

Well...
The people of Seattle demand and get bike lanes.
It really should be in the FAR for airport funding to accommodate all. Deaf pilots can't use towers. This is a form of discrimination.
I am not completely deaf but do have hearing loss. I can't hear a handheld with my engine running at normal power. I can hear it if the engine is off, but that presents other problems.

Really, I just think pilots don't need any help from a controller to land at most airports, if the airport was designed to separate slow traffic from corporate jets.
This would accommodate everyone.
If you have two parallel runways, one for twins and jets, and the other for GA and light sport, it cuts the runway traffic load in half by dividing the airport into two airports, so no tower is needed. The taxi-way can convert to be a parallel runway, they did it at Birchwood at pilots request.
If we continue employing controllers at the few remaining airports, eventually there will be a stiff user fee to pay controllers and only corporate jets will exist.
That should concern EAA.

[WLIU]

"The people of Seattle demand and get bike lanes."

Yes they do. They have the votes and those votes speak up. Its a political process.

Now airports are a political process. The challenge to most of us is choosing to live where we can influence an airport. For better or worse, to get real influence at the KOSH airport or any airport, you have to live in the town. When the political folks on an airport authority or the body that runs a town allow out-of-town folks to speak, it is a courtesy. In the end, folks who don't vote in that jurisdiction are second class unless you can bring a compelling argument about how the airport and the town will benefit from your idea(s). That's politics at the airport.

Now the FAA says that an airport can not discriminate and must service all types of aviation. But the airport grant assurances do not say that an airport needs to go beyond what is considered industry practice or the minimum required by the FAR's. So EAA uses their influence and standing as a resident to create more space for LSA, ultra-light, and other recreational aviators, but there is no business or operational necessity case for changing how the airspace around the airport is managed.

Now if you can organize even 1000 of what the FAA calls an "operation" per year, you might be able to present a plan to the tower chief to create a procedure for LSA's to come and go from a dedicated runway that does not require a radio to talk to the tower. But you have to create the traffic, and the problem to be solved, first. Speculating that life would be easier with a procedure does not get anyone's attention. Create a "problem" of an increase in a particular type of traffic and you can get an audience to talk about a "solution". And I think that we can all agree that an increase in LSA traffic would be a "problem" we all want to see.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Frank Giger]

I can't hear a handheld with my engine running at normal power.


Ah.

Okay, so that's earplugs and a headset (ear plugs help the sound of the speakers in the headset, btw) for your hand held and it's solved!

Btw, that's what I plan to do in my little open cockpit biplane.

[Bill Berson]

Wes, there may have been 1000 (or more) no radio operations during Airventure week because it was temporarily allowed. I suppose this happened because it was requested by EAA. But how can a unorganized group organize if the activity is banned 51 weeks of the year.
It seems to me that EAA, (the Sport Aviation advocacy group)should spearhead the move to get operations procedures for basic light sport.

[Bill Berson]

Ah.

Okay, so that's earplugs and a headset (ear plugs help the sound of the speakers in the headset, btw) for your hand held and it's solved!

Btw, that's what I plan to do in my little open cockpit biplane.
Not solved, I do that. I can hear CTAF traffic well enough, with words like "Cub turning final".
But controllers throw all sorts of information and questions and commands that are confusing and hard to hear in a noisy cockpit. CTAF works better for me because I get a picture of where the traffic is from simple position reports.

[Fastcapy]

Maybe at Chicago, but at Oshkosh in the last year (I am based there) the craziest direction I was given was "do a left 360 for spacing"

[WLIU]

Because Ariventure is a special event, it doesn't count towards what goes on at the airport the rest of the year.

Now the last time that I looked, an LSA with a radio could fly into any airport other than maybe Class B hubs. And you can in fact fly into, and out of, an airport with an ATCT with a prior telephone call. I have done it with airplanes that needed to be ferried and did not have a fully functioning radio. The tower guys dust off their light gun, read the directions on the back, and off we go.

My point is that if enough pilots want to come into a place like KOSH with their scratchy hand-held radios, by making telephone calls, then you can make the case for the tower establishing a procedure to make that all easier.

Now from the posts above, I am under the impression that folks want to be able to fly to OSH every once in a while, or maybe so that they can say that they did it, but the posts do not give the impression that there is any particular reason that OSH could be a regular destination for a large population of LSA and ultralight pilots. So without a clearly defined group of pilots knocking on the door, and knowing that in FAA terms doing an airspace plan requires a justification for spending the time and labor $$, there is not going to be any action. "I want" needs to be backed up with some sort of demonstrated need.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bill Berson]

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Best of luck?
There doesn't seem to be any support here for my idea that sport pilots can land without help from a federal official.
I give up.

[Byron J. Covey]

I have no experience to comment on the appropriateness of a CT at Oshkosh for 51 weeks of the year, but Bill has a point about there being airports that have towers that are not needed. There are two within a few miles of my base airport here in Florida. Both are "contracts" towers. Both (apparently) are there for the few corporate jets that base there. I've Been told by a corporate pilot that their insurance companies really prefer that they base at towered airports, and the local companies have enough pull to get a contract tower.

I can see that some would opt not to operate basic airplanes here because of the towers.

Several years ago RDU tried to become Class B. Apparently it was driven by the controllers wanting an upgrade.


BJC

[Aaron Novak]

Best of luck?
There doesn't seem to be any support here for my idea that sport pilots can land without help from a federal official.
I give up.

Maybe that should be an indicator that there is not a problem at KOSH?

[Bill Berson]

Maybe that should be an indicator that there is not a problem at KOSH?
I give up because the pilots here apparently can't see that lack of airport access as a problem.
It is just one straw breaking the the back of private aviation.

I am retired and could hardly care less for my own use. I just volunteer some of my time trying to save sport aviation for the next generation. So if corporate jet owners make the rules, as Byron said.... no problem?

[WLIU]

There are many airports where towers are a luxury. Again a political problem as many towns and airport authorities believe that they "must" have a tower in order to have a "real" airport. And to my surprise I find that many airport managers are not actually aviation enthusiasts. In fact, at an airport near me the airport manager does not like airplanes. At another airport near me one of the members of the airport board told me at a public meeting that "airplanes are dangerous" and went on to say that the federal grant agreements required the city to allow airplanes at the airport but that there was a lot of liability concerns about them. Believe me, I could not have made that up. I was floored to hear that statement from an airport management body.

So the topic of ATCT's is a political one not a technical one. And how airports are managed is again a political challenge, not a technical one.

And money is required in order to have an operating airport. Airports are neither charity organizations nor country clubs. So we may court the jet guys $$ so that we can also get to play. Living off of federal handouts in the form of airport improvement grants is not a sustainable business model. The feds funding is going down and they will only pay for stuff like the ugly fences that surround many airports and tell all of our young people "go away". The federal $$ does not pay for most airport features that message the general population "come join us".

So if you want to change the world, start with the airport in your town. And if you do not live in the town where the airport that you use is, then buy some property in that town so that you can stand up at an airport or town meeting and say "I own the hangar at...." and they have to listen to you. Speak up about where the airport $$ are spent and wasted. Invest yourself before you ask other folks to invest their time and $$.

This is not easy stuff. But if you do not stand up and do, nothing happens.

Best of luck,

Wes

[1600vw]

There are many airports where towers are a luxury. Again a political problem as many towns and airport authorities believe that they "must" have a tower in order to have a "real" airport. And to my surprise I find that many airport managers are not actually aviation enthusiasts. In fact, at an airport near me the airport manager does not like airplanes. At another airport near me one of the members of the airport board told me at a public meeting that "airplanes are dangerous" and went on to say that the federal grant agreements required the city to allow airplanes at the airport but that there was a lot of liability concerns about them. Believe me, I could not have made that up. I was floored to hear that statement from an airport management body.

So the topic of ATCT's is a political one not a technical one. And how airports are managed is again a political challenge, not a technical one.

And money is required in order to have an operating airport. Airports are neither charity organizations nor country clubs. So we may court the jet guys $$ so that we can also get to play. Living off of federal handouts in the form of airport improvement grants is not a sustainable business model. The feds funding is going down and they will only pay for stuff like the ugly fences that surround many airports and tell all of our young people "go away". The federal $$ does not pay for most airport features that message the general population "come join us".

So if you want to change the world, start with the airport in your town. And if you do not live in the town where the airport that you use is, then buy some property in that town so that you can stand up at an airport or town meeting and say "I own the hangar at...." and they have to listen to you. Speak up about where the airport $$ are spent and wasted. Invest yourself before you ask other folks to invest their time and $$.

This is not easy stuff. But if you do not stand up and do, nothing happens.

Best of luck,

Wes

Love this Wes.

If you can not afford it alone, get your buddies up and go in together. We have a few here in my area doing just this thing. Its a slow process for they are looking for the right spot or airfield, but they are looking.

Here in central IL we have an airport that is going by the way side. Its a County Regional airport built about 30 or so years ago to try and get a company to move into this depressed county. When this happened I paid little attention so can not remember the detail but it seemed they company wanted a break on taxes or water or something like this. The county would not do it so the company did not move in. The airport sat unused. I remember driving by and the weeds where taller then the buildings.

Then a group of pilots got together and approached the county. They took their own money and started this airport back up. They just built new hangars with electric doors and heating. Monthly hangar rent 100 bucks. Today the county has once again taken it from these people and again they want to shut it down. The airport I speak of is Havana Regional Airport.

My point if you want to do something like this stay away from anything county or government ran. You will be dealing with people who do not like nor see the need for these small things that people fly, we call them airplanes, they have other words for them.

[WLIU]

The challenge that readers here have is that we are pilots and builders. For most of us politics does not come naturally. That said, I am finally concluding late in life, and you should too, that we will not get what we want without learning something about politics.

County managers are elected in most places. You can create political pressure in the form of asking why they are "screwing up". State reps can ask questions of the county officials. Elected town officials can ask questions of the county officials. The news organizations can ask questions. Do politics and look for a pressure point. Don't say "I want" but rather go to each official with the message "this is bad for you".

Not easy stuff. How bad do you want this?

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

The general public or the Joe blows of the world could care less if we have these small airplanes. If its not a jet they see no need and its something that will fall out of the sky and go through their home, apartment ect. Our voice is few compared to the masses.

The airport I speak of has had many different County Board Members dealing with this. They all look at it the same way. Its a big waste of resources and money. It will not change unless you can change every persons view of aviation. That will never happen.

We are to few. I am speaking of small aviation not corporate anything. I would not fight city hall. Loosing battle. Not enough of us. Again speaking of local politics. Just not enough like minded people to change anything.

[Bill Berson]

This is not easy stuff. But if you do not stand up and do, nothing happens.

Best of luck,

Wes
I do stand up. At the local airport Master Plan meeting I was the only person that appeared with testimony.
What is EAA doing?

As an AMA member, I can guarantee that all model airplanes are welcome to fly at AMA headquarters. And keeping flying fields open is the top priority.

[1600vw]

I do stand up. At the local airport Master Plan meeting I was the only person that appeared with testimony.
What is EAA doing?

As an AMA member, I can guarantee that all model airplanes are welcome to fly at AMA headquarters. And keeping flying fields open is the top priority.

In our area all RC airfields have closed within a 30 mile radius. We have one. Its membership today is around 80 because all other fields have closed. A few short years ago they had 20 members. You never see all 80 members at the field. Most 80% live to far to come everyday. They have the regulars and they number about 8. How do I know this, there RC club is located at my airfield and where I live.

Don't put the AMA on a pedestal above the EAA and think they are better, they are no better or worse. Just a group of people trying to have fun doing what they love in the hobby they love. RC Airfield's are disappearing just as fast as small aviation airfields if not faster.

As I type this I hear RC airplanes in the background. I love the sound.

Tony

[Byron J. Covey]

.. we will not get what we want without learning something about politics.

Do politics and look for a pressure point. Don't say "I want" but rather go to each official with the message "this is bad for you".

Not easy stuff. How bad do you want this?

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Politics: From the Greek, "Poly," for many, "tics" for blood sucking creatures.

Of course you are correct, Wes (been there, done that, muni airport, last century.)

Just be careful no to get contaminated in the process.


BJC