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1600vw
07-24-2014, 04:53 AM
RCGroups.com’s Reply
to FAA Memo
“Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft”
July 17, 2014
RCGroups.com, a communitybased
organization representing over 500,000 registered
members and over 1.7 million unique visitors each month, has read the recent 17 page memo
and now responds to docket #FAA20140396.
Since the release of this interpretation, our
members have commented energetically on their concerns, and this letter seeks to convey
some of those thoughts to the FAA.
Briefly summarized our comments are:
● The definition of “line of sight” does not follow from the statute and criminalizes behaviors
consistent with responsible, safe operation of model aircraft.
● The FAA’s interpretation betrays Congress’ clear direction to exempt the R/C modeling
hobby from aviation regulations.
Line of Sight
We believe the FAA misunderstands the intent of the words “line of sight” and that the three part
definition provided is contrary to the public safety.
By definition, a model aircraft must be “flown within visual line of sight of the
person operating the aircraft.” P.L. 11295,
section 336(c)(2). Based on the plain
language of the statute, the FAA interprets this requirement to mean that: (1) the aircraft
must be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her own
natural vision (which includes vision corrected by standard eyeglasses or contact lenses)
to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu of
the operator for maintaining visual line of sight.
We believe that the intent of “Line of Sight” includes only item #1 in the above. Items #2 and #3
are additional interpretive steps by the FAA that are not founded. Also, the potential benefits of
multiple operators were dismissed capriciously.
Item #1 is correct provided we understand the word “visible” to mean what the statute implies: all
the visible area surrounding the pilot (i.e. the sky not obstructed by trees, buildings and people).
The remaining items proceed from an incorrect substitution of “within visual line of sight” to a
meaning more like “having current visual focus.”
Item #2 prohibits the use of safety devices which could make tracking a distant aircraft easier.
Such devices could even assist the operator with finding an aircraft which has been visually lost.
Pilots do make mistakes! There is no basis for including this as an implication of “line of sight”.
Item #3 apparently allows for the use of an FPV spotter but prohibits allowing that user to also
operate the model aircraft, which is nonsensical. Models can and often do have more than one
operator. There is no reason to disallow one of the operators from using an FPV perspective. A
second operator flying using a first person view has the potential to dramatically increase the
safety of model aircraft flight.
Clearly there is a concern about the use of first person video systems to pilot model aircraft.
This concern is unfounded. Aircraft flown from the first person perspective are much more
easily controlled than aircraft flown from a distant vantage. Users of R/C training simulators
typically begin with a first person view then progress to the much harder task of controlling the
aircraft from a groundbased
vantage point.
To ensure that the operator has the best view of the aircraft, the statutory requirement
would preclude the use of visionenhancing
devices, such as binoculars, night vision
goggles, powered vision magnifying devices, and goggles designed to provide a
“firstperson
view” from the model. Such devices would limit the operator’s field of view
thereby reducing his or her ability to seeandavoid
other aircraft in the area.
Contrary to the opinion of the FAA, it is only through the use of FPV viewpoints that R/C pilots
can effectively manage to seeandavoid
another airborne object. Parallax error makes it very
difficult to determine the relative depth of two objects in the sky. This is easily reproducible.
Maintaining line of sight through the use of binoculars is rare, but has precedent. See the below
photo of world model aviation record setter, Maynard Hill.
Maynard Hill setting a model aircraft altitude record via binocular line of sight.
Photo courtesy the Academy of Model Aeronautics.
While we certainly agree with the importance of ensuring the safety of aircraft occupants, we
must digress to point out that pilots of mancarrying
aircraft are required to stay 500 feet away
from people (FAR 91.119). Pilots of model aircraft would be very hard pressed to intentionally hit
a moving aircraft from their ground reference. In a collision between a model aircraft and a real
aircraft, the assignment of blame should begin by determining whether the pilot of the real
aircraft was recklessly operating within 500 feet of the model aircraft operator. Only after that
could it be determined who was better able to avoid the accident. In most cases this could not
be the operator of the model aircraft.
It is paradoxical to deny model aircraft operators the use of FPV equipment on the basis that it
will allow them to harass pilots of real planes, then assert that they must maintain seeandavoid
without the use of the equipment best able to assist them in seeing if they are on a collision
course.
We believe the statute uses “Line of Sight” to describe the area “within” which the aircraft can be
flown, not the status of the operator’s eyeballs. This area is all the places visible from the pilot’s
vantage point. The statute implies that model aircraft should be flown such that they are not
behind other objects, such as people, trees, and buildings, relative to the pilot. The statute did
not imply that pilots could not augment their vision for safety (e.g. by using binoculars or video
equipment). The FAA has no reason to prohibit operators from flying FPV flights within their own
line of sight, in particular with a safety pilot operating as either primary or secondary pilot through
a “buddy box” type system.
The FAA Interpretation vs the intent of Congress
This section of the memo regarding “commercial” operation weirdly and defensively detours into
areas that have nothing to do with the topic at hand of professional drone flights to address the
nonissue
of commercial model aircraft flights in general, including “receiving money for
demonstrating aerobatics with a model aircraft.” Rather than clarify it confounds.
The FAA errs in too broadly applying the following from P.L. 11295,
section 336(c)
(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use
It is our contention that “hobby or recreational use” was meant to include exactly the activity the
FAA believes it excludes. Congress expressly sought to prevent the FAA from regulating the toy
and hobby industry, and that includes those who work within it. Congress allowed for the FAA to
regulate commercial operations because it saw the future of autonomous crop dusting, hobby
atmospheric research vehicles, and autonomously piloted remote sensing vehicles in general.
Such vehicles need regulation to operate such that they do not interfere with mancarrying
aircraft, or each other. A proper clarification would tackle the difficult job of separating these
activities from model aircraft, not lump everything that flies into one group based on the
movement of money after it is flown. The FAA seems determined to jump in where it doesn’t
belong, despite Congress’ direction.
In order for hobby products to be made they must be tested. In order for an R/C training
simulator to be created people must go out and fly the real model to compare it to the simulation.
For reviews to be written people must fly the models under review. These people must be paid.
The FAA’s interpretation makes them the regulatory authority over the design, testing,
production, marketing, and sales of all model aircraft, giving them the power to shut down a
hobby they were expressly forbidden to regulate.
If the goal was to clarify the memo failed. New questions are raised about the future. Will hobby
industry magazines be able to compensate product reviewers who do not have a commercial
pilot license? Will they have to undergo a medical certification process? Urinalysis? Biennial
training? Is a reimbursement of a pilot’s actual expenses considered an act of commerce? Will
there be a waiver process to get around these restrictions?
Thankfully, the FAA stops short of insisting Part 91 fully apply to commercial pilots of model
aircraft. Perhaps a future memo will take us there, years from now after the current cadre of
bureaucrats are long retired, when a future generation is left to “plainly” interpret what was left for
them. Perhaps by then we’ll have applied all the FARs and operators of model aircraft will have
their timely lessons in how to use VOR and DME systems under their belts before receiving their
licenses to operate in the national airspace, which now extends to the air indoors and any
pockets found underground as well for good measure! Perhaps we will learn then that the FAA
has always been so tasked.
The FAA’s misguided attempt to shoehorn model aircraft into regulations obviously intended for
mancarrying
devices is the headwater for the recent veritable torrent of the “What does this
mean?” inquiries the agency is receiving. Clearly it is ludicrous to imagine that Part 91 would be
expanded to cover the sorts of activities mentioned above, yet the memo alludes to Part 91 for
potential actions that could be taken. The FAA missed its opportunity to reassure modelers that
it has no intention of doing something so absurd as applying Part 91 to the professional reviewer
of a hobby product.
Yet we arrive here quite logically, given the pellmell
exegesis the FAA is willing to go through to
gain every authority the loopholes allow.

1600vw
07-24-2014, 04:54 AM
The FAA starts with the definition of “aircraft” from 49 USC 40102, which says:
(6) “aircraft” means any contrivance invented, used, or designed to navigate, or fly in, the
air.
It then says that since it regulates aircraft, it also regulates model aircraft.
Let’s apply the FAA’s exact same logic to cars. 49 US Code 32901 says:
“automobile” means a 4wheeled
vehicle that is propelled by fuel, or by alternative fuel,
manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways and rated at less
than 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight, …
R/C cars are 4wheeled
vehicles propelled by fuel or alternative fuel. They are manufactured
primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways (they are also for use on R/C car tracks,
but that is less common). They are rated at less than 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.
From this we conclude the Federal Highway Administration is responsible for regulating R/C
cars. Furthermore, we can apply safety standards to R/C cars such as airbags and interior
trunk release mechanisms. We stop short of further illustration for fear we will give the FAA new
ideas.
To consistently apply the FAA’s selective definition of “aircraft” would include things such as
footballs, smoke rings, juggling pins, paper planes, etc. Ridiculous? Yes! But this is not an
argument reductio ad absurdum. The point is that the FAA is not legitimately clarifying. It
disingenuously builds a case that it has always been the one in charge and retcons definitions
willy nilly to prove it. “Aircraft” are all the flying things the FAA wants to control and all flying
things the FAA wants to control are “aircraft.” The definitions are convenient, nothing more.
If Sense Prevailed
We see that the government is under pressure to do something and we accept that of all the
federal agencies the FAA is currently in the best position to act. We stand by the FAA in their
efforts to protect mancarrying
aircraft from the few troubled souls who fly recklessly. We
support the idea of educating the public as to the dangers of flying model aircraft within the
national airspace. We accept the need for regulation to protect the general public from, well,
idiots.
However, the FAA appears overeager
to establish its authority over areas where they are simply
not chartered.
While congress might have allowed for regulation of FPV flight, that does not mean it is in the
interest of public safety to do so. In fact, we believe the FAA’s actions are contrary to public
safety.
Likewise, it is not in the interest of public safety to regulate professionals in the R/C hobby
industry. The FAA already has broad public support, founded in common sense, to regulate
anything that could harm occupants of an aircraft. It does not need to torture definitions to gain
authority over hobby activities as well. There is no actual history of R/C models causing
problems with real aircraft, whether flown professionally or not, provided the operators follow the
already wellestablished
guidelines. In the rare occasion that an operator acts with intent to
harm there is no regulatory void to fill.
We ask that the FAA further clarify the word “commercial” so that it applies to remote sensing
tasks performed by remotely piloted aircraft in such a way that it does not confuse them with
aircraft flown for the enjoyment of the R/C hobby.

1600vw
07-24-2014, 04:57 AM
Youtube is full of video's that blow everything the AMA is saying out of the water. To say RC pilots only fly in the line of site is wrong. I have seen video's from my own airfield where some RC pilot flew to 2500' then went out over the lake. A friend called him and told him to remove the video or altitude info for he was flying that RC in class C airspace.

After landing one evening I had a Helicopter pilot walk up and say to me. If those guys chased me around like they where you, I would land and beat me some RC pilots. I told him I did not see any RC airplanes chasing me. He said I was lucky for a couple came real close to hitting me.

1600vw
07-24-2014, 05:15 AM
These people also believe no one flies Rc airplanes like this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPvHOoYSU18

1600vw
07-24-2014, 05:17 AM
This shows an altitude of over 4000'



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0BFzxblqG0

WLIU
07-24-2014, 06:21 AM
A few bad examples do not invalidate the logical reasoning in the AMA statement. The examples in the last couple of posts simply show that there are folks who can be violated under the current policy as well as under the proposed new policy. Those folks are "noise" to the rule making process.

The actual problem that the FAA has is that there is little expertise, and no budget to follow up with individuals that operate outside the current or the proposed rules. And you have to understand that the rule-making folks are different folks than the safety and enforcement folks. Separate empires. So whatever policy is adopted, enforcement will be spotty in the future just like it is today.

For the purpose of the rule-making process, I suggest supporting the AMA position. Then if you want to stir up some dust today, package up a video of the local problem children with a log of names, addresses, dates and times, and send it off to your local FSDO and see what happens. But do not expect a pat on the back.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

1600vw
07-24-2014, 06:28 AM
Wes I agree. But with the wording they are acting like no one ever breaks the AMA rules of 400', and these are not just a few examples there are hundreds. I found these two examples in less then 1 min. If I posted every example that I could find, I could fill pages.

Tony

1600vw
07-24-2014, 06:45 AM
I support what the AMA is trying to do. I just don't support the way they think. These FPV units are being abused by Joe Public. Its just a matter of time before an airplane is taken out by one.

To say its on the pilot to remain 400' from an rc is wrong. Some of these RC airplane fly 100 mph. I fly along at 58-65. So if one of these take me out and I am at 500' its on me for not remaining 400' separation from this RC. I don't think so. Its on the RC to stay away from me. But not in how this letter is written.

Unless I am reading this wrong. They need to understand people are not flying these units at 400'. Joe Public knows squat about Far's and rules. they are buying these and launching them from their back yards into the wild blue.

I have a friend who purchased one of these. He does just like I say. I had to give him some instructions on the rules. He would just go up to around 1500' and hover this thing around taking video. I had to explain he was in controlled airspace that was controlled from the ground to 4600' for he is within the inner ring of class C airspace. He knew nothing about what I was speaking. he would go to the park and do this, 3 miles from the airport, not even understanding he is 3 miles from the airport.

Hundreds are doing just like my buddy.

1600vw
07-24-2014, 06:54 AM
With what RC have come to today. One should have to take a class before they can walk out the door with an rc that goes into the air. These are not your grandfathers toys. We need training to drive a car, shoot a gun and do many many things all in the name of safety. Why not RC airplanes?

Tony

1600vw
07-24-2014, 08:45 AM
It use to be that one needed to get training in order to fly one of these Rc airplanes. With the invention of the quad copter one does not need this. People are buying these, taking them home and flying them right out of the box with no training from an AMA Club or instructor.

Its a training thing I believe. We should not allow some 13 year old to buy a quad copter and fly it not without training. But its happening everyday and youtube is full of the video's of just this thing. Grown men doing it too, like my buddy.

Tony

Aaron Novak
07-24-2014, 08:54 AM
Tony I agree,
In the past it took someone with dedication to build and fly. That same dedication was usually part of a personality that was intelligent, had common sense, knew to follow guidelines and wanted to be educated. Now any idiot can do it, and so we have a higher percentage of idiots doing it. Very frustrating as someone who has flown models for years under AMA guidelines. The business of commercial piloting for compensation is a sticky one. How do you separate the guy making money taking aerial photos from the one flying a demo of a hobby plane at a show? The FAA is taking a very "all inclusive" stance on their control, which worries me.

ssmdive
07-24-2014, 01:22 PM
It use to be that one needed to get training in order to fly one of these Rc airplanes. With the invention of the quad copter one does not need this. People are buying these, taking them home and flying them right out of the box with no training from an AMA Club or instructor.

Its a training thing I believe. We should not allow some 13 year old to buy a quad copter and fly it not without training. But its happening everyday and youtube is full of the video's of just this thing. Grown men doing it too, like my buddy.


It is false that a person needed training to fly an RC plane. I have been flying RC for almost 30 years and I have never had to get 'training'. Not been a member of the AMA for the majority of that time either.


We need training to drive a car, shoot a gun and do many many things all in the name of safety.

There is also no formal training required to fire a gun, OR fly an ultralight for that matter. I prefer this than some arbitrary rule from some govt agency that has no idea what they are doing.

The RC groups reply to put the onus on the real pilot is bullshit. There are plenty of RC pilots that have zero training and even those that have training violating the FAR's with RC planes.... Examples have been posted on this thread already. Plus the AMA model code prohibits all of this already.

1-a: In a careless or reckless manner
2-a: Yield the right of way to all human-carrying aircraft
2-b: See and avoid all aircraft and a spotter must be used when appropriate
2-c: Not fly higher than approximately 400 feet above ground level within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying the airport opperator.

RC 'pilots' (of which I am one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcAZ8JMUVS4 ) should not get right of way over a real aircraft. RC planes are cool toys. They do not have, nor should they have, the same rights as passenger carrying aircraft.

Here is a prime example of how the RC pilot was acting like an idiot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpveweAqGYM

Frank Giger
07-24-2014, 11:41 PM
I'm throwing a flag on the field when it comes to UAV's and manned aircraft collisions!


While we certainly agree with the importance of ensuring the safety of aircraft occupants, we must digress to point out that pilots of mancarrying
aircraft are required to stay 500 feet away from people (FAR 91.119).

Irrelevant. It is not the distance to the operator that matters one bit - it is the distance from the remote controlled aircraft that matters. Nice strawman, though.


Pilots of model aircraft would be very hard pressed to intentionally hit a moving aircraft from their ground reference.

Silly statement on their part, as it implies that RC operators would be trying in the first place but having difficulty achieving it. Secondly, intent rarely has anything to do with responsibility in an accident. It's like saying pilots would be hard pressed to intentionally hit another aircraft on a runway while landing and so they're not at fault in a runway incursion. They're excusing simple negligence by proclaiming it wasn't gross negligence.


In a collision between a model aircraft and a real aircraft, the assignment of blame should begin by determining whether the pilot of the real aircraft was recklessly operating within 500 feet of the model aircraft operator. Only after that could it be determined who was better able to avoid the accident.

Written by a non-pilot who thinks that manned aircraft are as maneuverable as an RC one. It also hearkens back to their point about intentionally hitting a moving aircraft. It's actually harder to intentionally hit a moving object from within another moving object. That's why skeet shooting is done from the stationary standing position instead of while on the run.

I get what the author is trying to say, but he leaves out the condition required - a NOTAM or warning that RC aircraft will be operating in a specific area.

The other analogy is a driver rear-ending another who is stopped at a red light. When the police arrive, they find the driver of the car that was struck had broken tail lights (say, through his own admission). The person who hit him from behind now claims he isn't responsible for the accident, as his victim himself was breaking the law at the time. Um, no, you're both in violation of the rules, but they're separate issues largely unrelated to each other.

But it's a great rhetorical device to take a specific circumstance and generalizing it to automatically remove blame from the RC operator.


In most cases this could not be the operator of the model aircraft.

And with a flourish we end stating emphatically that it could not be the operator of the model aircraft, with the very weak "in most cases." I'd of gone with "invariably" or "In all but a few extreme cases" to really cement the idea.

The author clearly places the value of a remote control airplane above that of human life, which is his prerogative - but one I strongly disagree with.

Now, then, let's look at a collision between an RC plane and a real one. According to the AMA, it's the pilot's fault because he flew within 500 feet of the operator. Remember, "In most cases this could not be the operator of the model aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZD9pczEVs

The AMA would have sided with the RC pilot, though, based on his "500 foot" rule.

The NTSB report says otherwise. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/GenPDF.aspx?id=CEN10LA487&rpt=fa


In an interview with the event coordinator, he clarified that the title of airboss was not a formal

position. He did provide a safety briefing with the radio controlled airplane operators the morning of
the event. In this briefing he emphasized that only one aircraft was to fly at a time, they were to

fly on the east side of the runway, not over the runway, and no one was to fly without first speaking
to him. He carried a radio with him to monitor traffic.

1600vw
07-25-2014, 07:33 AM
I'm throwing a flag on the field when it comes to UAV's and manned aircraft collisions!



Irrelevant. It is not the distance to the operator that matters one bit - it is the distance from the remote controlled aircraft that matters. Nice strawman, though.



Silly statement on their part, as it implies that RC operators would be trying in the first place but having difficulty achieving it. Secondly, intent rarely has anything to do with responsibility in an accident. It's like saying pilots would be hard pressed to intentionally hit another aircraft on a runway while landing and so they're not at fault in a runway incursion. They're excusing simple negligence by proclaiming it wasn't gross negligence.



Written by a non-pilot who thinks that manned aircraft are as maneuverable as an RC one. It also hearkens back to their point about intentionally hitting a moving aircraft. It's actually harder to intentionally hit a moving object from within another moving object. That's why skeet shooting is done from the stationary standing position instead of while on the run.

I get what the author is trying to say, but he leaves out the condition required - a NOTAM or warning that RC aircraft will be operating in a specific area.

The other analogy is a driver rear-ending another who is stopped at a red light. When the police arrive, they find the driver of the car that was struck had broken tail lights (say, through his own admission). The person who hit him from behind now claims he isn't responsible for the accident, as his victim himself was breaking the law at the time. Um, no, you're both in violation of the rules, but they're separate issues largely unrelated to each other.

But it's a great rhetorical device to take a specific circumstance and generalizing it to automatically remove blame from the RC operator.



And with a flourish we end stating emphatically that it could not be the operator of the model aircraft, with the very weak "in most cases." I'd of gone with "invariably" or "In all but a few extreme cases" to really cement the idea.

The author clearly places the value of a remote control airplane above that of human life, which is his prerogative - but one I strongly disagree with.

Now, then, let's look at a collision between an RC plane and a real one. According to the AMA, it's the pilot's fault because he flew within 500 feet of the operator. Remember, "In most cases this could not be the operator of the model aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZD9pczEVs

The AMA would have sided with the RC pilot, though, based on his "500 foot" rule.

The NTSB report says otherwise. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/GenPDF.aspx?id=CEN10LA487&rpt=fa






Here in lies the problem. The AMA sided with the RC pilot. But yet the RC pilot was told do not over fly the runway and to stay east of said runway. Then this RC pilot is worried about his 8 grand he lost. If he would have followed rules he would not have lost it. To have the AMA side with this rc pilot, lets just say I lost all respect for the AMA.

I wonder if anyone has any numbers on the RC flying fields located at small airports. If the powers at be side with the AMA, those whom fly out of said field will always be in the wrong when it comes to a collision between said two airplanes. The manned airplane will always be in the wrong.

I see this turning bad real fast. For I know some a-holes who would love to do nothing more the cause problems for those hogging their airfield with these slow flying N numbered airplanes.

Tony

WLIU
07-25-2014, 08:51 AM
Be careful what you wish for.

First, AMA advocates for the RC folks just like EAA advocates for sport pilots. You have to read their input from that perspective. You do not have to agree with it. Its up to us to advocate our own point of view, which EAA does. TO put it another way, when you reply to a policy proposal, you speak to the proposal, you do not debate the other submitters.

Asking FAA to treat every RC aircraft owner like the worse case example can easily come around to the FAA treating every sport pilot like the worse case example. It is not in our collective interest to encourage the FAA to start thinking that way.

There are bad apples in every walk of life. Most folks who stray out of bounds do so out of ignorance. And they don't stray too far. Some bad apples do stupid stuff because they just do stupid stuff and need more serious guidance. I suggest that we want the FAA to propose rules that assume that most folks try to do the common sense thing, some folks make mistakes but are open to education, and that a small group needs more aggressive treatment. To encourage the FAA to act more expansively and aggressively is likely to have side effects that you and I will not like. When you look in the mirror, do you see a violator? I can assure you that some of our federal friends do. So lets go easy on encouraging that view of anyone, including some peers that we don't enjoy.

Today's challenge is that the unmanned flying machine world is changing faster than some folks can digest. We have to get used to that and figure out effective strategies for working with the changes around us. Or get run over by them.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Frank Giger
07-25-2014, 10:43 AM
Wes, I have no problems with the other points they make - in fact, I agree with them.

Where I have issues is when they want parity or even primacy over manned aircraft. Frankly the attitude that when an RC plane and manned plane collide that it should be presumed the pilot in the air is presumed to be at fault is scary.

Since collisions of this sort are very rare it's clear they're looking towards the future, and their vision of the future is a threat to GA. Why allow those noisy, dangerous manned aircraft around when they're a hazard to safe, less intrusive RC aircraft? Make the local uncontrolled county airport RC only and the safety factor goes up, not down, but by all means keep funding them and keep them open!

1600vw
07-25-2014, 10:45 AM
They need to enforce the rules and regs that have been put in place for RC use. Why change anything. Line of site to 400' nothing more. This really is not about the airplane hitting an rc down at runway height as it is about running into an rc at altitudes even if those altitudes are 700' or 4000'.

Don't bust me for hitting or crashing into an RC at 1000' telling me I should have kept a 500' rule. Not when these RC airplanes can fly circles around the airplane people like myself fly.

The only thing I wish for is free open space to fly my airplane in without running into some sort of UAV aircraft. Or worse yet having one run into me and blaming me for it.

Like I said I can see bad things coming from this.

Tony

Fastcapy
07-25-2014, 01:51 PM
Don't bust me for hitting or crashing into an RC at 1000' telling me I should have kept a 500' rule. Not when these RC airplanes can fly circles around the airplane people like myself fly.



Sometimes it is hard enough to pick out a 172, trying to see and avoid a RC plane moving at the speeds some of them do is very difficult. Sorry, but a guy flying a "toy" (and I have a few of those R/C toys myself) should not have right of way or priority over a manned aircraft...

WLIU
07-25-2014, 02:29 PM
"Where I have issues is...." I agree. My point is that we should expect the AMA to have this point of view and when we have an opportunity to provide input on the FAA policy we should clearly and rationally offer our view supporting or suggesting changes to the FAA policy that protect manned aircraft flight. No use burning up lots of energy on a group that you can not influence.

Unfortunately, I agree with the post above that notes that in this area the FAA is good at stating policy but poor on follow up. The AMA has a directory of affiliated clubs. A start towards corralling the folks who do not understand the hazards of mixing their models with manned aircraft would be the FAA crafting a guidance doc and delivering it to every one of the AMA affiliated clubs. And having each FSDO's FAAST representative make the rounds of RC club meetings to meet, greet, and speak with the members. That sort of effort might go a long way towards taking care of the RC guys who simply need education. But I will hazard a guess that it will be a while before that moves up the priority list.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Rick Rademacher
07-25-2014, 06:46 PM
Both sides could learn something from one another. It’s too bad that pilots aren’t up on the fantastic leaps of technology that are taking place in the RC world that may filter up to general aviation. And, it’s too bad that many new RC pilots lack many of the safety precepts that all full scale pilots recognize.
I was thinking about bringing my 350QX2 AP quad to Oshkosh to demonstrate as long as it doesn’t get confiscated by security. We all need to work together for the common good and enjoyment of the skies.

This one is for Neil

1600vw
07-25-2014, 08:25 PM
Both sides could learn something from one another. It’s too bad that pilots aren’t up on the fantastic leaps of technology that are taking place in the RC world that may filter up to general aviation. And, it’s too bad that many new RC pilots lack many of the safety precepts that all full scale pilots recognize.
I was thinking about bringing my 350QX2 AP quad to Oshkosh to demonstrate as long as it doesn’t get confiscated by security. We all need to work together for the common good and enjoyment of the skies.

This one is for Neil







What? Please explain how this has anything to do with blaming a pilot of an airplane if an rc airplane crashes into it? I am up on all the tech stuff and fly RC airplanes. I have had 1/2 scale. Just what is it you want me to learn. The rules or regs? How to fly them? How to use Spectrum equipment?

I know the rules and they are being broken and to blame others for a misfortune if something happens is just wrong. Why have rules if they are not going to be enforced. This is not teaching anyone anything except when it comes to rc's. There are no rules.

I have learned something from this. What I learned, if you fly into an RC anything it is on you to see and avoid. If you hit it be ready to pay for you will be in the wrong if you are not dead.

I still believe it comes down to training. No different then getting a gun permit. One must take a class and pass a test. These toys will kill and people have been killed by them. Just wait until one takes out an airliner or small passenger airplane. It will be pilot error on the pilots part. He did not see and avoid, I see it know.

Scary....

Tony

Mike M
07-25-2014, 09:52 PM
Tony, the answer is hidden in your post. When an R/C or UAV or (insert acronym of the day here) is involved in an event which includes a human death, the remote operator and the whatsit owner must be executed. Bet there would be great safety equipment and extremely cautious operators.

1600vw
07-26-2014, 03:20 AM
Tony, the answer is hidden in your post. When an R/C or UAV or (insert acronym of the day here) is involved in an event which includes a human death, the remote operator and the whatsit owner must be executed. Bet there would be great safety equipment and extremely cautious operators.

There you go, that would solve the problem.

If it was only that easy. But I don't believe this is the answer to this problem. I know one thing. Who ever wrote that letter is a nut case. Or has never operated an airplane bigger then what will fit in their car.

That piece could not have been written by a " Real " pilot but by someone flying a toy. You can tell from the piece he/she believes " Real " airplanes have the performance of a RC airplane.

Tony

Mike M
07-26-2014, 05:28 AM
Yes, Tony, I was intentionally over-the-top with my suggestion and I'm glad the dark humor wasn't misunderstood. The underlying dilemma includes the fact that prudent people will be able to integrate disparate uses of the public airspace safely no matter what the rules are, balanced by the fact that even perfect rules can't cure stupid.

Frank Giger
07-26-2014, 07:50 AM
The crazy thing is that inclusion of that paragraph was unnecessary and needlessly inflammatory.

When there is a wreck in an aircraft that causes serious damage to it or injury to the pilot or passenger the NTSB (or an FAA representative of the NTSB) investigates. The RC operator gets his say on the matter, and I can see many scenarios where he would not be held at fault (and the pilot of the manned aircraft would be).

Here's a for instance:

Let's say Tony is taking his half scale (!) RC aircraft out for a flight and is doing a lazy race track over the lake at 400' above the water and I get cute in my Champ and decide to check it out up close. Heck, I'll bet his "toy" can beat my stall speed, so I try to fly formation with it.....and as he's trying to get away from me without putting it in the drink I eat it with my prop or take it out with a wing strut. NTSB is going to say I'm an idiot and not cite Tony, as I was behaving recklessly.

Now, then, if I'm just tooling along at 500' over the lake and not being an idiot and Tony's RC plane hits mine, he's at fault - I have right of way. The presumption is that the see-and-avoid onus is on whomever does not have right of way. When a Baron plows into a Champ in the pattern, it's the Baron's fault 99% of the time, as it's much faster than the Champ.

It's up to the investigator to decide which is the case....was I acting recklessly as a pilot or not. If so, it's my fault. If not, it's the RC operator's fault. Or just damned bad luck on everyone's part. Even in the "it's always somebody's fault" way of writing up accident reports, there are mitigating factors that get explained in the findings.

In the example I provided where a biplane hit the hovering RC plane there were a lot of mitigating factors. It was simple negligence on the RC operator's part; he didn't knowingly endanger anyone. He'd be liable for damage to the aircraft, yes, but far from a charge of reckless endangerment.

Now, then, I agree with the RC guys that having to advise an airport within 5 miles of every flight of their UAV's is unworkable. For events, sure - if there's a large gathering at a football field 5 miles from my airport I'd like to know so I can avoid it. The other side is that as pilots we're lousy at checking NOTAMs for local or near cross country flights.