Changes Bad/Changes Good

[rwanttaja]

I didn't want to hijack another thread, so pardon the new one.

The Thunderbirds show this year has triggered a lot of discussion about the way the AirVenture is going, with the changes over the years.

Now, I don't make it to the show often...generally only if I have a personal connection to some sort of event, there. So my opinion probably matters even less than normal.

But for those who have been attending regularly:

1. What are the GOOD changes you've seen at AirVenture?

2. What are the BAD changes you've seen at AirVenture?

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

The good:
Substantial decrease in the number of vehicles in the pedestrian areas. I suggested they treat the show like a real convention and use an expo service and they did make that chagne
Ditching Zaugs in favor of some other local restaurants and caterers.
Some flush toilets and better shower facilities
The better exhibit buildings.
The trams are much improved

The Bad:
Dumb airshow acts (shockwave, masters of destruction, other car vs. plane racing, etc...)
The demise of Ricks Inedible Pyro.
The pushing of airplanes away from the taxiway and show center.
The chalets and other exhibit (the luggage people and various semi trailers) in the old prime aircraft areas.
The demise of the Shifflebein brat/corn stand.

[spongebobiwan]

Ron,

You nailed it.

[dedgemon]

the demise of the hot donuts!!

anybody know if some other outfit will be doing them

[flyboycpa]

I hope that despicable lady running the food at the Seaplane base is gone! They were so rude!

[FlyingRon]

the demise of the hot donuts!!

anybody know if some other outfit will be doing them

Come down to the Tall Pines Cafe in Vintage (near the Ultralight area). We still have them!

[dedgemon]

wilco

[jjhoneck]

I hope that despicable lady running the food at the Seaplane base is gone! They were so rude!
And if they skip the Friday Fish Fry at the Seaplane Base again this year, there will be hell to pay. We attended that for 15+ years, and all of the sudden it just went away last year!

[Tom Steber]

Come down to the Tall Pines Cafe in Vintage (near the Ultralight area). We still have them!
You wouldn't kid a fella about a thing like that would you?

[spongebobiwan]

You wouldn't kid a fella about a thing like that would you?

Hey Tom,

As much as I know you love your hot donuts first thing when you arrive, I presumed you had found that out by now already. Had I known you had not, I certainly would have passed that gem on to you. Enjoy....yum..yum!

Russ

[nigel hitchman]

The best things about Oshkosh don't change and hopefully continue despite any changes, that is the people who come year after year and the fantastic array of aircraft that they bring, the new restorations in the antiques and warbirds every year, the new homebuilts and the returning aircraft from years ago

Other improvements
Tall Pines Café
Warbirds in review and similar for antiques and classics
Seaplane base shuttle and the boat ride aroud the seaplanes
more trams
Events/themes like Cubs to Oshkosh, Round engine rodeo and please can we have the Golden age of air racing again!
Homebuilt camping parking area
If its true, the end of the Pyrotechnics, I hate to see all that fuel go up in smoke, Id much rather it was given to owners of interesting or unusual aircraft to see them do a few flybys in the airshow time

Bad
too long airshow, with things like the jet truck and the awful Jetman last year ( a great feat, great on youtube, but hopeless as an airshow act)
No grass runway, we need a grass landing area for some of the antiques and we must try harder to attract them back
No more antique and Classic parade of flight, lost many years ago, was the best thing in the airshow all week!
Too much blah blah on the speakers, announcers shut up if you haven't got anything worthwhile to say and get rid of the one who can only shout (why cant they all be like Steve Buss)
Parking the contemporary class aircraft in with the antiques and classics. Id rather they had their own parking area. I hate to see Barons and Cherokees in the prime parking spots.
road around the antique parking area and loss of prime parking spaces
Warbirds landing on 09/27 during the warbird airshow when there are no wind issues and nothing going on infront of the crowd. The take-offs and landings of the warbird show are the highlights as everything else is so far away
Allowing people to leave lawnchairs on the flightline

But its still a great event even though its perhaps not as good as when I first came in 1984, certainly in terms of interesting aircraft being flown in by the membership which to me is the main attraction of the event. The airshow flying display is a minor part of the event.
I still greatly look forward to Oshkosh every year

[spongebobiwan]

I don't recall this one being mentioned, and I am reluctant to even say anything bad about the most exciting aviation event in existence, but here goes:

Is it just me, or are there others who would much prefer hearing the beautiful sounds coming from any airplane passing by, than to hear the constant loud blaring music drown out the REAL "music"?

[dedgemon]

I'm with you on that. Way too much talk on the PA.
This isn't just an OSH thing. Every airshow I go to has degenerated into a constant stream of blather.

[RC Gregg]

In years past I enjoyed hearing the morning yodeler over the sound system drifting into the campground each morning. Great way to start a day at Oshkosh! Do they still do that?

[RC Gregg]

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1119304309 Found it!

[Jeff Point]

He passed away several years ago. They piped in recordings for a year or two but decided to hang it up. I miss that too.

[RC Gregg]

I remember a few times I was already out on the airfield walking amongst the homebuilts with my Dad when the Yodeler would perform his morning ritual.

[bneal]

I haven't been going to Oshkosh for an eternity like some. I was there in 97/98 when I was a kid. I have been there for 11,12,13.

Now there is a lot more money of the flightline. I.e....aviators club. Wish I could afford it, but having a wife, and 3 kids it makes it very unreachable for me. I can honestly say, 2011 was kinda eh.....nothing crazy, 2012...kinda eh...what I mean by that was. No real show of spirit, I did not feel the passion. To me EAA is about the homebuilts, the warbirds, the cessna's, mooney's, the general aviation. To me Oshkosh should be about us "end users" and less business jets, less corporate...less jet jocky's. I want to praise the homebuilder, through faith and passion built his own plane, to the warbird owner/pilot who out of the goodness of his heart restores a plane, flies it there, just to show some history. To the gentlemen who restore Glacier Girl" or the gentleman who are bringing planes up out of lake Michigan. To the general aviation who fly up to Oshkosh to be apart of something that shares their passion. I have to say this about 2013...

It was Magical, the night airshow's, Disney Planes preview. Not to point fingers....but under pelton, I felt a since of renewed passion. Grill me if you will. But I found more stations for potty, more "fun" activities for the kids (kidventure, totally impressed) and a great display of aviation in the airshows. Like the STOL demonstrations at show center, some new performers I have not seen before. Now I know that pelton did not do it all. But a great staff at EAA made it happen. Last year was the best out of the 3 years, I cannot lay a finger on it. But there was passion.

This year I feel, The Valdez gentleman will put on a great show, Where I like the thunderbirds, my kids will love them. I personally care more for piston power than turbine. But that's me. I understand EAA and trying to attract the younger crowd, and I appreciate that. So if the thunderbirds is what it takes to get a kids eye to sparkle and ignite their passion. So be it.

Go to Oshkosh, for you....for your passion, Please do not do it if you "think" you want to go. Go for you, go for your passion, go for the appreciation of variety, go to stay in camp scholler, be there for the family time. You won't be dissapointed. I am not rich, I have not homebuilt, I fly a little 1947 Aeronca Champ that will not be there (avgas cost, plus a family of 5) but to be there and appreciate the passion. It's something special. It's family, fun, away from the computers and TV's and time with the ones you love. I'm probably off topic, and I do apologize. But Oshkosh for me is truly special. So to answer your question? Changes are good and bad, but if you ask me? It just keeps getting better.

[FlyingRon]

If you dig around on the EAA site you can find a video of him doing his yodel thing. I crunched it down into the 40 seconds allowed for an iPhone ring tone and put it in my phone. It's quite a distinctive ring tone (or alarm clock sound).

[Inspector Fenwick]

Didn't they have something like the yodeler last year? I kind of remember engines spooling up in the background but forget the rest. I recall liking it.

I too, miss the yodeler. Even a recording would be better than nothing.

[FlyingRon]

I believe depending on the whim of the guys in the comm center, they play the yodler tape, the engine start, and some "vintage" music at the start of the day.

[jjhoneck]

Another thing I miss are the "Dawn Patrol" warbirds launching. Back when the WWII guys were still flying, those boys would launch the moment the field opened, giving everyone in the North 40 the best alarm clock possible.

Now, the billionaire Mustang owners sleep late, and have their ground crews prepare the airplanes for an 8 AM launch.

[FlyingRon]

Speaking of Dawn Patrol, the other thing I miss was back when Canon was the camera sponsor (it has been Nikon for the past few years), they would (in exchange for collateral) loan you a camera for a day. I thought that was sweet. I shot with a film camera for a couple of years and then switched to digital (including some of the very high end bodies). It was enough to make a Canon man out of me. Too bad Nikon doesn't have a similar program.

[Jim Rosenow]

Another thing I miss are the "Dawn Patrol" warbirds launching. Back when the WWII guys were still flying, those boys would launch the moment the field opened, giving everyone in the North 40 the best alarm clock possible.

Your indulgence for a short hijack. Memories of my of my first 'dawn patrol'. Got to OSH '71 the evening before start, and pitched a small tent in the perfect location for viewing by a newbie...directly across the snow fence from the Mustangs. Heard voices outside the tent early the next morning, but didn't pay much attention...until....the P51 tailed into the fence opposite us fired up and blew the tent 7 ways from Sunday! :-) Loved those days!

You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion :-)

[L16 Pilot]

Couple of things: I don't remember the yodler (spelling??) but maybe I was still asleep. Seems they also had a rooster crowing. As I've previously posted, I do like the various flybys (vintage, warbirds, homebuilts, etc.) and while I can appreciate the acrobatics most of them are pretty repetitive and for my part they could cut the acro part of the air show in half.

[FlyingRon]

You had to be camped down somewhere where there were speakers. I didn't know about him the years I camped in the North 40, but boy did I find out in a hurry the first time we were camped in Vintage near the UL runway. The ultralights firing up followed the yodler nearly immediately.

[L16 Pilot]

Right....I was parked in the vintage area about half way down to the ultra lights. Big speaker about four planes away. By the way, I agree with whoever posted above regarding the "color commentators" babbling on. I'd rather hear the 'airplane noise' but I'll be back again this year for the 'umpteenth time'......wouldn't miss it and hope I can fly in (depending on the weather).

[FlyingRon]

I just tune the speakers out. Most of the announcing is just time filling drivel I agree, but a lot of the crowd hasn't heard it before and it is somewhat useful. At least they didn't repeat the utter disaster place the over bearing monster speakers in front of the crowd after the first year.

[jjhoneck]

You had to be camped down somewhere where there were speakers. I didn't know about him the years I camped in the North 40, but boy did I find out in a hurry the first time we were camped in Vintage near the UL runway. The ultralights firing up followed the yodler nearly immediately.
Huh. We always heard the yodeler in the North 40. With earplugs! lol

[spongebobiwan]

In my post above, I was not referring to the ongoing commentary as the "noise". I find most of the commentary to be not only entertaining, but also very instructional and informative. What I was referring to was the very loud and very blaring music that frequently accompanies performers' routines. Much of the music I don't even like. The only accompanying music I enjoy during a performance is the old 40's music that is sometimes played along with some of the warbird performances, but it is usually played for only relatively short time periods, not throughout the whole performance, and typically is not played at eardrum bursting decibels. I just find the very loud, sometimes heavy metal type of music to be completely distracting and anti-pleasurable.

[FlyingRon]

I don't mind the music, what I detest is them trying to do commentary OVER music. It's nearly unintelligible in the Oshkosh environment. Pick one: music or commentary.

[spongebobiwan]

You must be more of a music lover than I am. I enjoy music, but the real music to my ears is the purr of a Rolls Royce engine passing by. :-)

[MADean]

I wouldn't mind the commentary too much... if they knew what they were talking about half the time. While I'm no aviation expert, I'm not a complete idiot, either. But some of the things I've heard these "airshow" announcers make really make me wonder if they've ever even been up in an airplane.

What I've come to understand, over the last few years, is that airshow announcing is less about aviation "education" and is more about commerical marketing. In fact, EVERYTHING revolves around marketing, these days. And, if you ask me, marketing people should directly follow lawyers in the march to the firing line.

Okay... rant over. :cool:

[LuvFlying]

Come down to the Tall Pines Cafe in Vintage (near the Ultralight area). We still have them!
The same ones that used to be about show center, next to IAC??!

[gmatejcek]

Good- most all that's been previously mentioned, plus: Greatly expanded exhibitor space, better geographic organization in general, more shower and hygiene facilities, radically improved food on site, and the museum.

Bad- A radically increased emphasis on revenue. Not only has the cost of attending skyrocketed, but with exhibitor costs up, the little guy with the great idea can no longer test the waters there. Having lots of money is great, but this organization is supposed to be about people, not cash. The focus used to be about the members, but increasingly it seems to be about power. Like a previous poster, I also woke up to the sound of a Mustang cranking up on the other side of the snow fence, and that left an indelible mark on a young mind. 37 conventions and a career in aviation later, I try to go to sleep to the sound of truck tires on 41. Not quite the same ambiance.

From my perspective, Jack Pelton is truly a breath of fresh air and about the best thing that's happened to the organisation in a long time. I sincerely hope he doesn't re-retire any time soon-

[FlyingRon]

The same ones that used to be about show center, next to IAC??!

No, that was a Zaugs operation. Tall Pines is operated by a group of Vintage Volunteers.

[FlyingRon]

Oshkosh isn't particularly less friendly than it was before. It used to be you couldn't even get INSIDE the exhibit buildings until you had been coming for years. The combination of the four new exhibit hangars and the decline in the industry has greatly opened that up.

[L16 Pilot]

Even if there are glitches now and then (and why won't there be with an event this large) it's still the premier aviation event as far as I'm concerned. I look forward to it every year and I'm glad I only live less than 200 miles away so I can pick and choose my days........ fly or not fly. I wouldn't miss it. I tell everyone it's 'holy week' for me and don't bother me with other concerns.

[Joe Delene]

I too get 'booked up' for some time at Airventure, just about everything else can wait a few days. Yes, if you want feel free to join me. One of the constants in life is change. I try to accept at least some of it.

[FlyingRon]

One thing I've learned over the 23 years is that if you ask around you can always find someone who you can make suggestions to. These boards are a pretty good place as not only EAA staff but many of the various volunteer chairman, etc... lurk here. As far as I am concerned, other than some regression in the Hightower era (probably not all ascribable to him), Oshkosh has been trending upwards.

Still it's the people: the volunteers, the attendees, the year-round residents of Oshkosh and its surroundings, and many of the performers and exhibitors and not the actions of the EAA/Airventure management that draws me back every year.

[MADean]

"Bad- A radically increased emphasis on revenue. ....this organization is supposed to be about people, not cash."

Don't blame EAA for all of the cost increases. I learned a few years ago after volunteering at the Ducks Unlimited Outdoor Expo (from a DU director), that used be held on the EAA grounds, about a month after AirVenture, that a lot of the costs (like camping, exhibitor spaces, etc.) are set be the Oshkosh Convention Bureau... or board, or whatever they call it.

It's kind of a long story but, to make it short, I was going to send off a nasty letter to EAA for charging the relatively few DU volunteers overnight camping fees. ("DU leased the grounds. How much money does EAA need?" I thought.) When I talked to the DU director about my concerns he told me that EAA had nothing to do with that. It was all dictated by the OCB.

[FlyingRon]

The Convention and Visitors Bureau is run by the city's hotel industry. I'm not sure how they got to control the EAA and the County but I suspect there's some I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine going on.

[L16 Pilot]

I know it's 'supply and demand' but when they charge something like $275 per night for a Motel Six it's highway robbery. My wife ran a small business for years and never raised her prices just because supplies were tight at a particular time. We stayed at the Super 8 near the end of 09 once when I attended an event during the winter at Oshkosh and the place was absolutely filthy. I wonder if it's any better during the convention when they charge the 'big bucks'. L16 Pilot

[jsully629]

He passed away several years ago. They piped in recordings for a year or two but decided to hang it up. I miss that too.

John from the ComCenter here, we did play the recording of the Yodler last year at the convention, but we did not do it everyday.

[jsully629]

We still do that but not everyday!

[FlyingRon]

John from the ComCenter here, we did play the recording of the Yodler last year at the convention, but we did not do it everyday.

For those who have to have their fix, I converted the audio track from the EAA Video recording of the yodeler into a ring tone:

http://www.ronnatalie.com/images/yodelmod.m4r

[Jim Hann]

For those who have to have their fix, I converted the audio track from the EAA Video recording of the yodeler into a ring tone:

http://www.ronnatalie.com/images/yodelmod.m4r
Awesome, thanks!

[Sonerai2mx]

Ok, back to the most important thing. Are the cake donuts now being served down in vintage on par with the old Zaugs?

[RC Gregg]

John from the ComCenter here, we did play the recording of the Yodler last year at the convention, but we did not do it everyday.

play it every morning all week!

[FlyingRon]

Ok, back to the most important thing. Are the cake donuts now being served down in vintage on par with the old Zaugs?

They seem to be for me, though I'm not the connoisseur of fat pills (though some of my camping mates are). They were slightly smaller than the old Ace Cafe ones that I remember but not by much, but tasty either plane or with sugar on them. We grab a dozen or so of them for the early shift at the Vintage flight line and that and a cup of joe gets me going in the morning.

Vikki's (located in the little campground on the corner of the diagonal Waupan road and Knapp street, by the old Zaugs gate if you remember that) lunch wagon has had in the past a cute little mini donut machine that you can watch fry up the donuts and get them hot off the press...