Why I'm against bringing the Thunderbirds

[Jeff Point]

In his editorial in the July Sport Aviation, Jack Pelton makes the case for bringing the Thunderbirds to Oshkosh this year. As a member who has been against the idea since it was just a rumor, I tip my cap to Jack- the argument that he makes is the most convincing one I've yet seen. In essence, his argument is that big, noisy jet air shows are what get kids excited about aviation, and we need to attract more kids to aviation. It's a sound argument. I'd like to use this forum as a "letter to the editor" to tell Jack why I disagree with him.

I'll get my main point out of the way first, since it borders on heresy. The purpose of Oshkosh is not to attract kids (or adults for that matter) to aviation. The purpose of Oshkosh is to be a gathering (convention to use the old term) of members who are already involved in aviation. We core EAA members spend the other 51 weeks of the year running local chapters, flying Young Eagles, supporting local air shows, sponsoring B-17 and Trimotor tour stops, flying more Young Eagles, doing school programs and hosting ground schools, flying still more Young Eagles, and volunteering in a hundred other ways. In other words, doing the evangelical work of EAA. These are the activities that grown participation in aviation, much more so than a week airshow in an out-of-the-way upper midwest town. These activities are local and reach a far broader audience. We do all this because we love and and are passionate about our brand of aviation.

Oshkosh, in it's correct form, is for us, the core EAA members. It's a gathering of members who spend the other 51 weeks growing aviation and need a week for ourselves, to recharge our batteries for the next 51 weeks. It needs to be focused inwardly towards the core members, and that philosophy should guide the planning for the event. It used to be that way.

Of course, some will think this is selfish and that we need to focus outwardly to attract others. Here's the funny part- back when EAA was focused more inwardly, we were (almost accidentally) extremely successful in attracting outsiders to come to the event. Let's face it- what we do is just so awesome that regular folks were more than willing to pay the admission price in order to get a ticket to stand with their noses against the flight line fence (remember that?) and watch us do our thing. The show wasn't for them and yet they came, in greater numbers than they do today, I might add.

Not to get all Dr. Phil on you, but here's an analogy- parents are most successful when they love one another more than they love their kids. That relationship naturally creates a loving family environment conducive to raising good kids. We as EAA need to love ourselves more than we love other people's kids.

Some time in the mid 90s, we began to lose our way. The focus began to shift from Oshkosh as a convention (a gathering of members) to Oshkosh as a circus (designed to maximize attendance.) From the dismantling of the flight line fence to the renaming of the convention to Airventure to a hundred large and small changes, the focus gradually shifted. As it did, EAAs relationship with it's core members became more and more strained. "I'm leaving and never bringing my airplane here again!" was an all-too common refrain heard after the circus crowds had damaged planes on the flight line where they were suddenly allowed to roam.

Bringing the Thunderbirds is just the next step in this evolution. As sure as I am sitting here, there are core EAA members who would otherwise have flown to the show who are not going to attend this year because of the T-birds and all the changes to the event they require. Still more will come, only to be sufficiently irked that they are less likely to return in the future. Is their loss worth the small gains made by attracting a slightly larger weekend crowd of locals? I don't know how to calculate this- but I'd bet all the money in my pocket that members who come to Oshkosh tend to be more involved in their home chapters, fly more Young Eagles and do more of that EAA evangelism that is so needed. Granted it can be a chicken and egg argument, that members who do these things are more likely to come to Oshkosh, but the reverse is certainly true. I know I leave Oshkosh every year with a renewed enthusiasm that would be sorely missed if I didn't go. We need to take care of our own and nurture that EAA spirit, and when we drive core members away from Oshkosh, we damage the organization.

These opinions, while mine, are certainly not only mine. Despite the Thunderbirds, I am still looking forward to the show. I volunteer on the homebuilt parking crew, and one of the great things about my job is that I get to meet and interact with core EAA members (any homebuilder qualifies in my book) in large numbers and get a good cross section of what members are thinking. It's a great way to get the temperature of the membership in a way that you can't get even from just a local chapter. I would invite those members of the EAA management ranks who are worried about the direction and culture of the organization to come out and work with us for a day or two. You'll learn more from these core members than you will in a whole month of executive meetings, I promise you.

Back at the now infamous 2012 annual meeting, I was one of the long line of members who stood up to address the board. The gentleman who spoke before me told that board that he had built an airplane and flown it to 32 consecutive Oshkosh shows, and was planning to not come back next year. He proceeded to expand on the reasons why. I applaud him for doing so, but for every person who takes the time to air their grievances on a public forum like that one (or this one) many times that number will simply vote with their feet. Any member of management would not have been caught off guard by the sentiments expressed at that meeting had they spent an afternoon with me talking to core members.

By the way, I spent my time at the mic warning the board that they were in danger of loosing the support of their volunteers and what that could mean to the organization. When the meeting broke, the only board member who came to seek me out to discuss this further was a rookie class 3 director by the name of Jack Pelton. So I know you get it, Jack, you understand the culture and EAA has made great advances under your guidance these last couple of years. But I'm afraid you are just wrong about the Thunderbirds.

[FlyingRon]

There's a split purpose to Airventure (and the name even implies what that is). The show is not just the annual convention of EAA members, it is *THE* money making event for both the EAA and the EAA foundation. As a result we are stuck enduring a few commercial opportunities that are, as you note, disharmonious with the actual mission of the association. Frankly, the Blues or Tbirds are a whole lot better than the stupid Shockwave jet truck or even, in my opinion, the stupid-assed acts like the Masters of Destruction.

We'll have to see what impact the T-Birds actually cause. Frankly, in the past few years the airplane arrival has been mixed to begin with, and a substantial number of people arrive and depart before Friday anyhow. Frankly, I was at Sun-n-Fun this year when the Blue's performed and there were changes there as well. Frankly, I didn't see much of an adverse impact (and that's a field where people day-trip in and out more than camp like Oshkosh) but they did clear out almost half of the Lakeland version of Scholler for the Blue's performance.

We'll have to see. After this summer's show we can reevaluate. Either gripe how it could have been handled better or you can say "I told you so" and we'll know not to do that again.

[gbrasch]

I. Let's face it- what we do is just so awesome that regular folks were more than willing to pay the admission price in order to get a ticket to stand with their noses against the flight line fence (remember that?) and watch us do our thing. The show wasn't for them and yet they came, in greater numbers than they do today, I might add.



That is a nice memory, being a "member" and walking through those gates, leaving the non-aviators behind the fence.

[krw920]

That is a nice memory, being a "member" and walking through those gates, leaving the non-aviators behind the fence.

A few of us non-aviators snuck through that fence, because we liked airplanes and couldn't afford to pay the price of memebership to get close to them. My first Oshkosh was in 1991, main reason I went was to see the F-117. Had no idea that one needed to be a member to even get close to the airplanes after paying to get on the grounds, and I think it was like $25 to become a member back then, which I didn't have, so I snuck onto the flightline to see the plane I drove up there to see.

I am member now and still a non-aviator that loves airplanes, and I am glad the Thunderbirds are going to be here. I love all aircraft, from jets to ultralights, and think all should be included in the greatest aviation event in the US.

[hatz672]

I was happy to hear they were coming until the details of the intrusion came to light. I usually don't venture too far from my volunteer location on Friday or Saturday because I don't like being in crowds. I suspect departures from homebuilt and vintage parking are going to spike Friday morning. I know I woudn't want my airplane in the middle of the mob that's going to be concentrated west of the new burn line. Since we weren't consulted, I guess we'll see what happens.

[rwanttaja]

Well-written, Jeff.

I think EAA is suffering from "boiled frog" syndrome. As Jeff says, it started out as, basically, a members-only event. But, over the years, it gradually became more. And, as appealing to a wider attendance base caused more people to come, more investment (both financial and emotional) went into supporting the larger and larger crowds. If the show got pared back to a members-only event again, there's a LOT of infrastructure wasted, and a lot of vendors wouldn't come ("you promised me 400,000 potential customers, there were only 50,000"). Both would cost EAA a ton of money, and that would cripple the organization.

EAA can't go back, not easily. EAA depends on the Airventure income to keep it at the current level. A downsized Airventure *would* result in a downsized EAA, and controlling such a downsizing would be tricky. One wrong decision, and it's bankrupt. Could EAA, as an organization, give 150,000 homebuilders the current level of technical support and perform the current vital advocacy in Washington DC if it were again run by a couple of volunteers in someone's basement? I don't think so....

The obvious riposte to this is, "Well, EAA shouldn't be as big as it is. It doesn't need that big headquarters, it doesn't need that big staff, it doesn't need the museum, it doesn't need Pioneer Airport, it doesn't need six huge permanent pavilions, etc."

And that may be true. The problem is, EAA has all those things. And downsizing isn't as easy as putting an ad on "Barnstormers". Remember the Red Queen in "Alice in Wonderland": "It takes all the running you can do to remain in the same place."

I think having the Thunderbirds will be fine if EAA doesn't make a habit of it. I think it'll make the 2014 show special, but they probably don't want to cause the show-grounds and member upsets every year. It'll bring in more of the non-flying public, and what they see might tend to make them want to come back next year, even without the Thunderbirds. Have a military team every ten years or so....

Ron Wanttaja

[Jeff Point]

Lotta "ifs" in there Ron. Do you really think that if this works and EAA nets an extra mil or so from the larger gate, that they won't be lobbying the AF and Navy to do this every year? If Jack had used his editorial to say "we are bringing in the Thunderbirds because they will draw a lot more people and we need the extra money to keep the organization going," I would have a hard time arguing with it. Granted, I still wouldn't like it, but I'd get it. My issue, and the reason for this post, is that he seems to believe that bringing the T-birds to Oshkosh is good for the organization and the future of aviation. I believe that it is in fact harmful to the organization and therefor a bad idea.

Those of us who criticize the direction of EAA are often made out to be straw men who want next years event to be nothing but a get-together of homebuilders in Paul's coal bin basement. (That could happen- the house is still there and just a couple miles down the road from mine.) Nobody in their right mind thinks we could or should "go back." You can't unboil the frog, but you don't have to keep turning the heat up either.

[L16 Pilot]

Jeff makes some good points and as one who parks in the vintage area I do get concerned about 'non aviation folks' leaning on my tube and fabric airplane. Having said that, it does seem to me that EAA always tries to find something new to bring to Oshkosh in order to keep the folks 'interested'. This year it happens to be the Thunderbirds (by the way I'm an old air force guy :F-102 days). Remember the Concord? A friend of mine had to go just to see the Concord fly and it was impressive to say the least. Or that big old Russian cargo jet that was doing slow flight turns over the field. Where else do you go to see stuff like that? While I can appreciate the skill of aerobatics they get pretty "ho-hum" after the second or third one and I generally head for Friar Tucks for an adult beverage or if I happen to be driving head out before the rush starts. On a personal basis I do like the fly by demonstrations of different aircraft, vintage and war bird fly bys, some forums and being able to talk to vendors. Anyway, as someone mentioned above, the genie is out of the bottle regarding the size of the convention and the money needed to be raised to support various missions of the EAA but I'll keep going as long as my landing gear holds out. I look forward to it every year. L16 pilot

[rwanttaja]

Those of us who criticize the direction of EAA are often made out to be straw men who want next years event to be nothing but a get-together of homebuilders in Paul's coal bin basement.
If I implied that regarding your posting, I apologize. You stated your case well, non-emotionally, and with good logic. I'm just a born contrarian. :-)

Personally, I think the furor regarding needing to chase people out of traditional viewing areas and just the overall hassles will probably aim EAA towards not doing this every year. Guess we'll know in about eleven months.

Ron Wanttaja

[Kyle Boatright]

Good write-up, Jeff. Your sentiments align with mine pretty well.

But playing devil's advocate, I wonder how many long term EAA members will actually be impacted by the relocated crowd line? Personally, I don't gravitate towards the airshow anyway. I'll likely be found in a workshop or a forum, or maybe sitting in a shady spot reading a book or talking with a new found friend - can't do that at the showline - between the speakers, the jets, and the aerobatic routines, it is way too loud for me. I think a lot of the dedicated EAA'ers are the same - Airventure isn't about the airshow, it is about everything else. So if the townies want to watch the Thunderbirds while I do what I was going to do anyway, what's the big deal? Especially if it puts another million bucks in the EAA coffers.

[rwanttaja]

But playing devil's advocate, I wonder how many long term EAA members will actually be impacted by the relocated crowd line?
Personally, if my airplane were parked beyond the relocated crowd line, I'd be peeved. I keep a small ice chest in my airplane at airshows, plus a folding chair, along with all the other crap I don't want to carry around. Deny me access to that for 4-5 hours? I'd be ticked.

Ron Wanttaja

[MEdwards]

Personally, if my airplane were parked beyond the relocated crowd line, I'd be peeved.I agree. In recent years I've always stayed until Saturday or Sunday morning. This year I plan to wait and see where in Vintage I'm parked. If it's beyond the relocated crowd line, which, by the way, includes everything south of the ultralights, I plan to leave Friday morning instead.

It would particularly peeve me if I ended up parked ON the relocated crowd line, because a whole lot of people could conceivably be crowded up right around my airplane.

Thank you, Jeff, for your well thought out and well written post.

Mike E

[Old Timer]

My son volunteers at Sun and Fun, he thinks the jet teams have done damage. Yes a big crowd shows up but they are not aviation people. Management stops supporting the grassroots "too much trouble"

[Jeff Point]

Personally, I think the furor regarding needing to chase people out of traditional viewing areas and just the overall hassles will probably aim EAA towards not doing this every year. Guess we'll know in about eleven months.
I wish I agreed with your optimism. EAA has been remarkably tone deaf to the complaints of the core members, so I suspect the ring of the cash register will drown out the protests of the members.

As one born contrarian to another- no offense taken. All this straw down my shirt just itches and makes me ornery.

[hatz672]

There's a lot of better places to be than show center during the airshow, for sure. Since the T-birds fly last Sunday, the best airshow of the week-- the one on Sunday while the Green gang is tearing down the sound system so you can actually hear the airplane noise instead of the blaring music, commercials and narration-- will probably not be happening.

[nigel hitchman]

Great post Jeff, I totally agree.
Others make the point about the unusual or extraordinary attracting crowds to Oshkosh, that is perhaps true, but the Thunderbirds surely don't fit that bill, they appear at many shows all over the country and have already been fairly near to Oshkosh last Month in Rockford! But also all the other attractions have mostly fit in with the rest of Oshkosh they don't majorly disrupt the crowdline for a start!
I very much doubt they will attract many kids, except outside the fence.

[Larry Lyons]

As one of several people, 15 to 20 and planes, 7 to 10, that fly in as a group Thursday or Friday before the show so we can camp together on the burn line down beyond the speakers I will say we are deciding this week as to our plans. We will be denied access to our chairs, coolers, tents, support equipment, and aircraft for 5 hours for at least 2 days! We are not happy and not looking forward to standing around or schlepping all our stuff back to the new line where we will have to get along with out any shade too! Most of the group camps out from when we arrive to Sunday morning, 8,9,10 days. So losing access to your home for a substantial amount of time is looked at as a hard ship. We are considering pulling out Fri. morning, one of our group has already served notice that he is leaving early. If your there for one day you put up with sitting in the sun but after a week of camping and then be evicted, we are not too happy. What impact will we have? Not much I guess just one flight line empty early (way down south) maybe a $,5000 in camping fees, food, and beer. I hope, like Ron, his I a on time thing. We do not come to see the airshow, we are here for the camaraderie and to watch the arrival and departure of aircraft we can't see anywhere else.

L

[Bill Berson]

EAA has certainly abandoned the core and I have complained as much or more than anyone. Like Ron said, it happened over time. Actually, it started from the very beginning in the 1950’s. Everything aviation was welcome at the early Fly-ins and growth was always the goal. But back then most of the articles in Sport Aviation were directed to home building or restoration.
The problem is that Airventure is the template and source for Sport Aviation articles through the following year. (Tom admitted this in his column). While I might enjoy watching the T- Birds more than the usual air show stuff( that I usually ignore), I sure don't want the cover of Sport Aviation to feature the T-Birds with a full feature article about the life of the jet pilots. The cover should be homebuilts or sport aircraft and the majority of feature articles should be sport aviation related.
Jack said EAA is now defined as "Personal Aviation". But I don't see that.
Military, commercial aviation and Business Aviation ain't personal aviation.

So, I guess I am more concerned with the content of Sport Aviation than Airventure. I always enjoy Oshkosh, but don't care to receive the current Sport Aviation anymore.

[tspear]

Jeff,

Very well written. I have never made it to Airventure. It is on the bucket list, and will eventually happen.
But what is kinda interesting to me, I have met more non-pilots that have been to Airventure then pilots that have attended; and I live in an Airpark!
So Jack's point about appealing to outsiders has a significant resonance with me.

I would suggest that EAA should consider taking part of the page from AOPA. AOPA has ended the single large event and gone to six smaller regional meetings. Maybe EAA should keep Airventure as is, and start smaller regional gatherings aimed at the membership "core".

Tim

[FlyingRon]

If you're south of ulralgihts, you will be in the zone during the show. I've not heard yet from our chairs as to what we're going to do about people who want spaces west of the "poles" but most of the affected area in Vintage is "parking only, no camping"

[Kyle Boatright]

... most of the affected area in Vintage is "parking only, no camping"

I thought the tents went all the way to the burn line. At least it seems that way when I walk the vintage area south of the square.

[nigel hitchman]

yes there is a big area, from around where the Cessna 195s park all the way south to the Ultralights which is Camping and will be affected by this problem. This area is usually full by Sunday evening, very popular with a lot of the airplane campers, I guess at least 20 rows. North of the Cessna 195s is generally parking only, although this seems to change a bit from year to year. When all the Cubs parked there, some were camping.

[rbarkerjr]

Does anyone know if there are there any maps out there that depict where the restricted areas for the Thunderbirds shows?

Thanks!

[MEdwards]

Does anyone know if there are there any maps out there that depict where the restricted areas for the Thunderbirds shows?Yep, it's shown on the visitor map on the Airventure web page: http://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/airventure/av14_visitorsmap.pdf
It's on the main, detailed part of the map, not the tram routes map that you may come to first at that link.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Does anyone know if there are there any maps out there that depict where the restricted areas for the Thunderbirds shows?

Thanks!


Yep, it's shown on the visitor map on the Airventure web page: http://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/airventure/av14_visitorsmap.pdf
It's on the main, detailed part of the map, not the tram routes map that you may come to first at that link.

No dis on MEdwards but this is a better aerial photo of the TunderBirds Aerobatic Box (http://www.eaa.org/~/media/images/news/2014-07-03/av14_tbirdscrowdline.jpg).
News page (http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/2014-07-03-us-air-force-thunderbirds-flight-times-set-for-oshkosh)

[MEdwards]

That is pretty graphic, thanks. I wondered what was going to happen to the east of the airport.

[rbarkerjr]

Yep, it's shown on the visitor map on the Airventure web page: http://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/airventure/av14_visitorsmap.pdf
It's on the main, detailed part of the map, not the tram routes map that you may come to first at that link.


No dis on MEdwards but this is a better aerial photo of the TunderBirds Aerobatic Box (http://www.eaa.org/~/media/images/news/2014-07-03/av14_tbirdscrowdline.jpg).
News page (http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/2014-07-03-us-air-force-thunderbirds-flight-times-set-for-oshkosh)

Perfect. Thanks!

[TedK]

Hey! I've got an idea!

Switch the T-birds from F-16s to A-10s. Much smaller box needed.

IMO, the A-10 puts on a much better airshow.

[gbrasch]

DITTO!!!! They are based here in Tucson at DMAFB, watch them all day. And the idiots in Congress want to shut them down!

[Wrongway Feldman]

I wondered what was going to happen to the east of the airport.

Business Cooperation For Thunderbirds (click for source) (http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/volunteer/articles/2014-05-22-challenges-cooperation-for-thunderbirds-inaugural-appearance-at-oshkosh)
The community cooperation with AirVenture came on the east side of the airport. As the expanded aerobatic box included business and residents adjacent to the airport, EAA worked with them to provide viewing and hospitality areas near their facilities. EAA also worked with the Thunderbirds to schedule performance times that had the least effect on the businesses on the airport’s east side.

Hospitality Tents for Thunderbirds Show (click for source) (http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/volunteer/volunteer-at-eaa-airventure-oshkosh)
Volunteers are needed to greet and be a host at the hospitality tents during Thunderbirds show for our neighbors and businesses near AirVenture. We also need volunteers to set up chairs and tables and clean up after each day the hospitality tents are utilized.
Set Up Tables and Chairs
Friday, August 1 – Anytime from 8am - 3pm
Greeters and Hosts
Friday, August 1 – 3:00pm - 6:00pm
Saturday, August 2 – 3:00pm - 6:00pm
Sunday, August 3 – 1:00pm - 4:00pm
Clean Up Crew
Friday, August 1 – 6pm - 8 pm
Saturday, August 2 – 6pm - 8pm
Contact Jessica Luft at jluft@eaa.org or call her at 920-426-6529 if you are interested in volunteering.

Sounds like a pretty Good Gig!

[Jim Rosenow]

Jeff-

Sorry for being late to the discussion. To borrow some verbiage from Ron W... "You stated your case well, non-emotionally, and with good logic.". Interesting point about the volunteers. Here's my logic, open for debate, obviously....

As the core EAA members' age increases, the 'honey pot' of free labor for OSH is evaporating (absent an influx of new volunteers/members). This means fewer folks to accomplish the basics (setup, parking, registration, etc, etc..most of us know the drill and have done it).

During the same time period, EAA HQ is increasing the overall volunteer labor needed by adding more...I'll call it a 'general admission' factor.... with concerts, T-Birds, etc. Seems there's got to be breaking point somewhere.

It's said regularly that EAA makes most of it's money at OSH....the volunteers would seem to be a major source of that funding. Will that continue if AirVenture continues to go more mainstream?....just askin'.

Jim

[rvsuper8]

Well said Jeff. It all goes to the target audience. That target has been shifting. The desire to grow and expand revenues is an endless chase. And thank you Jeff for your volunteer service. Your one of the reasons I attend. And as a previous AV performer, there are some acts I watch, and most I dont. I sure do watch the experimentals when they are up. Others? Not so much.

[jsully629]

You are correct the Green Gang cannot tear down the speaker system until Monday.

[jsully629]

Does anyone know if there are there any maps out there that depict where the restricted areas for the Thunderbirds shows?

Thanks!

Anything east of the speaker line is restricted during the Thunderbirds show

[FlyingRon]

Anything east of the speaker line is restricted during the Thunderbirds show

And everything south of the Ultralight runway in Vintage.

[Bill Berson]

I listened to the 2014 Airventure webinar. They said the Thunderbirds will bring the youth.
That seems ok to me, if true.

[Kyle Boatright]

I listened to the 2014 Airventure webinar. They said the Thunderbirds will bring the youth.
That seems ok to me, if true.

It'll be interesting if they collect data to prove or disprove that hypothesis.

I'm doubtful, since the T-birds have already flown this year at Rockford, IL, which is more convenient to Chicago, Madison, and Milwaukee than to Oshkosh.

[Kurt Flunkn]

I agree with Jeff Point. I have attended every Oshkosh since 1986 and this year I am sitting it out. Earlier this year I intentionally allowed my membership to expire as well. The reasons are simple:

1). Jack Pelton - google his educational credentials from Hamilton University and decide for yourself.
2). EAA on FAA ATC fees for Oshkosh - they were going to fight then caved. This is just the first round of user fees.
3). EAA no longer represents the little guy in aviation. They are trying to be "Everyone's Aviation Assoc".

When are we going to see some back to basics grass roots aviation? When will we see real leadership?

[Fastcapy]

I will tell you as a local I hear a lot of people who have bought tickets for either the first time ever or first time in many, many years. Personally I live anything aviation, homebuilt to military to commercial.

[Tom Steber]

I hear ya Fastcapy! I still run outside and look up at whatever is flying over. I'll always be that way and I like it. As I've stated earlier, I'm in the wait and see how this turns out mode. If it's a horror story, I'm sure this will be a one time deal. But if it's not, and I think it won't be, this could turn into something that happens more often. I hope it wouldn't be every year. But when my non-aviation friends have asked in the past what the "big draw" is for the year and if it wasn't something like Concorde, etc., their not that interested. If the weather holds, crowds could be really big. And all packed into a smaller area, gulp.

[FlyingRon]

I'm not convinced it will be a smaller area. Frankly once you get 30 feet back from the burn line it's pretty sparse. I park on the far side of the road and there's never anybody there during the airshows.

While an F16 or a Concorde or whatever may be interseting or mundane to us, believe me it's a draw to the average crowd. My wife runs a large event at the Air and Space Museum. In past years I've put 250 kids in and out of my Navion as one of the exhibit aircraft. This year, United brought a 777 to the event and everybody made a beeline to that. The gate counts were about the same, but I only handed out about 150 cards rather than 250.

[scuba72]

While the Thunderbirds will draw the attention of the general public (as in non aviation people) and I'm sure several EAA members, I could care less. If the EAA is looking for revenue, So be it. For me I will wonder the less crowded grounds while every one is watching them perform. Sure I'll look up every once in a while to see whats going on, but If I see a particular thing I'm interested in it will draw my attention more than the airshow.

On a side note, I just read on the website the news about Friday night at Theater in the woods. Might be fun to go to, but there is some inaccuracy in the post.

"The team has always used combat-capable fighters for its performances."

That quote from the news is wrong. From 1974 to 1983 they flew the T-38 Talon which is a trainer, not a combat capable fighter. It was a trainer..If you read the news it sounds like they switched from the F-4 to the F-16.

Dave in Missouri

[rleffler]

While the Thunderbirds will draw the attention of the general public (as in non aviation people) and I'm sure several EAA members, I could care less. If the EAA is looking for revenue, So be it. For me I will wonder the less crowded grounds while every one is watching them perform. Sure I'll look up every once in a while to see whats going on, but If I see a particular thing I'm interested in it will draw my attention more than the airshow.

On a side note, I just read on the website the news about Friday night at Theater in the woods. Might be fun to go to, but there is some inaccuracy in the post.

"The team has always used combat-capable fighters for its performances."

That quote from the news is wrong. From 1974 to 1983 they flew the T-38 Talon which is a trainer, not a combat capable fighter. It was a trainer..If you read the news it sounds like they switched from the F-4 to the F-16.

Dave in Missouri

I'm not sure that quote is inaccurate. What does it take to convert a T-38 to a F-5? Wouldn't that mean it's combat capable? Agreed, that the US didn't use the F-5, but many other countries did.

[scuba72]

I'm not sure that quote is inaccurate. What does it take to convert a T-38 to a F-5? Wouldn't that mean it's combat capable? Agreed, that the US didn't use the F-5, but many other countries did.

While the T-38 and the F-5 were developed at the same time and I believe the same basic airframe, the F-5 is bigger. 1 foot longer, 16 sq ft more wing area and about 1 foot taller. While the airplanes look similar and do share a lot of the same components, they are totally different machines. I'm pretty sure it would be near impossible to convert a T-38 into an F-5.

I personally think the T-38 and the F-5 are two of the nicest looking airplanes ever built. Sleek, fast and maneuverable. When the T-Birds flew them I think they put on better shows. I have seen them perform with the F-100 (Okay I'm showing my age), the F-4, the T-38 and the F-16. I think the T-38 years were their best.

[avinuts]

Here is my two cents worth, my oppinion on the subject and what I think about the Thunderbird performance. Change is inevitable, sometimes good and sometimes not-so-good. One thing that I have learned over the years about events is "that they either get bigger or they get smaller, but never stay the same". I have many good organizations with their "purist" members with the attitude that if it was good enough for me then it should be good enough for everyone else. Unfortunately as those "purist" members get old and "go west", there isn't anyone groomed to replace them because the fundamental ideas are no longer as popular as they one were. We must all be vigilant to declining membership. I have attended EAA Oshkosh since 1974. I have seen changes, oh yes, many changes. The crowd line has been moved. The Thunderbirds-type performance is not new. I have seen the Canadian Jet team, the French Jet team and the Italian Jet team perform in Oshkosh. The organization was set up with different divisions to accomodate different people and their particular likes. Perhaps something for everyone, so to speak. The best way to keep someone in attendance is to accomodate the family. Make it a family outing/vacation/holiday. Hence the theater in the woods, the outdoor movie theater, teen dances and the concerts. We all don't like the same things, EAA Oshkosh is about aviation and the people who have similar interests. I fly, I don't own an airplane, I don't ever plan to build one, but I certainly respect those people who do. Paul Poberezny flew many different types of aircraft and was proud of them all. One of his proudest moments was when the Astronauts were at Oskosh to speak. How do I know this, he made a point of being accessable to the membership and said so. Personally, I like seeing Warbirds, WW II, Korean War, VietNam War and modern Military aircraft just as much as seeing a breezy, a Cessna 140, a R-22 or the Goodyear blimp. If moving your chair for the Thunderbirds aerobatic demonstration box is the problem, park farther back earlier in the day. If they are to noisey, wear earplugs, if you are able to plan a 5-10 hour flight to Oshkosh, I'm sure you can plan to be away from your tied down aircraft for a few hours on a couple of days. You are "special", in aviation, we are all special. It is time that we act as mentors and not dictators to the public. We need the support! The show, the event, the convention, the gathering starts in four days. Enjoy it! I will with ALL that it has to offer for everyone there. I'm pumped up and ready, again!

[flybuddy]

Just adding a couple of thoughts:
1) BA and T-Birds have not been consistent with their practice times at all at Sun-N-Fun. Wonder how that will work at Oshkosh with resi and business closings as well as show lines?
2) I understand the revenue need but why not run them at another time other than Airventure to attract the locals. They DO draw good crowds at conventional airshows.
3) If you want to run them at Airventure, how about the weekend BEFORE the convention.

[Ylinen]

My first time to Air Venture was in 2005. Then we saw the Blue Angels. The performance box was no different. Clearly the FAA has learned much since some airshow disasters. I think the comments about a Convention vs the BIG show are useful. Raising money (Mostly from EAA members at this show needs to be reviewed). I know there are many chapter leadership meetings and strategy planning that happens this week that I am not involved in.

For me, I want to see EAA HQ develop better Advocacy strategies. I think we need to work to get us all working at all levels of government to make Small Aircraft GA much more free of oversight and regulation and drive lower costs. EAA can set the standard as Certified Aircraft and AOPA are harder and already have the FAA in on their backs.

As members, we need to voice our desires. Elect members as Directors that have our views and hold them accountable. Sounds like voters and the Government.

[BillL]

This yearly event is a magic thing - it is a lot of different things to a lot of different people with widely different reasons for being there. The airshow is just a part of that. Basically, the homebuilt, amateur build industry is good for America. In building my RV7 I have spent more money on purely American made parts and services that another facet of my life, including my home. It is the core of what EAA is all about, even if Kitplanes has more articles actual building and amateur built planes each month. As a newbie, it was looking at kit offerings, forums on tech stuff, then it was selecting the kit, then it was talking and looking at what features and components would be on the plane, then it was looking at finished planes to see how they did things, and now it is getting to know the builders personally and saying hello to the suppliers who have helped me so much. Hopefully next year, it will be experiencing the joy of arriving in the airplane I built and hoisting beverages with other new fellow owners. This is a long journey ( 12 years now) and the event must cater to each segment as they are all there at one time each year. If the T-Birds will allow some other Dad to bring his son along while his journey progresses - then Bravo - it is meeting that segments' goal. I am too old to drool over an F16 seat, and will be very happy to finish my bird and pull 4g's at a lot slower speed. That does not mean it is not a good thing for Airventure. The Board must realize the reality of this journey and not miss a single group as they progress over the years. Disintegration of a link in that chain will damage the event, including T Birds. Personally, I am more excited with a Blue Angles show right down on the deck, or the AeroDynamic RV team with their art in motion, but that is just me personally.

[L16 Pilot]

I was just packing up when the TB made their arrival. They did as pretty good job of beating up the field but then I'm an old air force guy from F102 days although not a pilot at that time.

[orvie6]

Maybe I am missing something, but looking at the Primary web cams, I can not find the Thunderbirds!!! Where are they parked?

[Hal Bryan]

Maybe I am missing something, but looking at the Primary web cams, I can not find the Thunderbirds!!! Where are they parked?

They're parked in front of the Wittman airport terminal building, NNE of warbirds, on the far side of Rwy 9/27.

[spongebobiwan]

They're parked in front of the Wittman airport terminal building, NNE of warbirds, on the far side of Rwy 9/27.

Oh, and by the way?? It is currently 5:07pm and at this precise moment, the Airshow cam is pointing directly at the Thunderbirds. :)

[PaulDow]

I'd like to ask that when the crowd is compressed, that the No Carts zone along on Wittman between Waukau and Vern be very strictly enforced. It's packed in there, and it's difficult to move aside for someone driving through that area. There are fewer through there, but so e seem to be let through.

[lkorona]

As to the question about hosting theT-Birds at Oshkosh – To me it was a great thing to have done. I was at the showon Thursday when the T-Birds arrived, and just about everyone stopped what theywere doing to look up. You could feel the excitement in the crowd. The crowdswatching all their performances were huge, they are a big draw for everyone, fromhard-core EAA members to the general public. Having the T-Birds at Oshkosh wasa big win, and if that meant that you needed to accommodate their visit bymoving the burn line, then so be it. It was a great show and I had a greattime.

[Aaron Novak]

As to the question about hosting theT-Birds at Oshkosh – To me it was a great thing to have done. I was at the showon Thursday when the T-Birds arrived, and just about everyone stopped what theywere doing to look up. You could feel the excitement in the crowd. The crowdswatching all their performances were huge, they are a big draw for everyone, fromhard-core EAA members to the general public. Having the T-Birds at Oshkosh wasa big win, and if that meant that you needed to accommodate their visit bymoving the burn line, then so be it. It was a great show and I had a greattime.


I could have done without it. It ended up being a pretty big disruption for the local hangar tenants, and I did not see much of a positive reaction from anyone that was around. Granted I was in the homebuilt area and have been spoiled with better f-16 and f-22 demo flights. Honestly I hope this is the one and only time they show up. To each their own.

[TedK]

I personally had no desire to see the T-Birds (or the Blues, for that matter), but from my observations, I think Net/Net that having the Thunderbirds was positive. It appeared to me that the youngsters were greatly impressed.

IM<HO, I think the best of all worlds would be for them to bed down other than at OSH and do an offsite show like the Chicago lakefront show.

Also, a lot of us old timers don't care for jet noise. I would suggest that EAA stagger the participation of the jets like the T-birds and Blue Angels so there are "quiet" years and "jet" years.

[Mayhemxpc]

I'd like to ask that when the crowd is compressed, that the No Carts zone along on Wittman between Waukau and Vern be very strictly enforced. It's packed in there, and it's difficult to move aside for someone driving through that area. There are fewer through there, but so e seem to be let through.
Then there was the elderly couple driving a Chrysler THROUGH the crowd on Boeing plaza during the show on Friday. No ground guide or escort...and driving over my son's backpack while we were pulling my son (10 years old) out of the way before he got hit, too.

[Floatsflyer]

Then there was the elderly couple driving a Chrysler THROUGH the crowd on Boeing plaza during the show on Friday. No ground guide or escort...and driving over my son's backpack while we were pulling my son (10 years old) out of the way before he got hit, too.

Was that Friday night as well? I saw that right in front of us Saturday night during the night airshow just a few yards north of the plaza. And it was an old car, dark green I think. I wondered what the hell that was all about?

Hope your son was OK.

[rbarkerjr]

I'd like to ask that when the crowd is compressed, that the No Carts zone along on Wittman between Waukau and Vern be very strictly enforced. It's packed in there, and it's difficult to move aside for someone driving through that area. There are fewer through there, but so e seem to be let through.

I think the trams should be put in that category as well, at least during the air show. Sitting by the Gee Bee on both Friday and Saturday, especially Saturday, I was amazed at how many near-misses there were between the trams and inattentive spectators. I realize that where the Gee Bee was parked is outside of those areas, but it was still a dangerous area there too.

[Fastcapy]

I am a hangar tenant at kosh and I had no issues. I enjoyed them breaking full afterburner over the hangar. I had a bunch of family and friends out to the hangar to see them as well. They loved it. Saturday, a lot of them paid for a wristband just to see the t-birds at show center. The best was when the pilots threw us their trademark hand signals as they taxied past us heading back to the terminal! Granted, I don't want them to be an every year thing, but once every few years is neat.

[Fastcapy]

I do not however, know why they had to expand the box so far east. Because they were breaking to the north and west just as much, especially the solo guys who were moving quick and low over pretty much the whole south side of the city.

[Fastcapy]

Regarding the carts, my wife and I both commented that this year they seem to be a lot more carts and cars driving around through show center than previous years. Not to mention some of those guys driving the golf carts were driving like total idiots...

[Jim Rosenow]

I think the trams should be put in that category as well, at least during the air show.

Respectfully disagree, Ron. Some of us older guys have limited interest in the airshows, and use the trams to get around to see other things while the airshow is in progress. Inattentive spectators can't be fixed but every tram driver I've ridden behind dealt with them well.

Easing back to the more specific T-Bird discussion....any numbers in yet on attendance at the weekend airshows? Just watched the airshow video repeating on the Videographer's Webcam, and attendance didn't look all that heavy. I assume it was the Sunday airshow as the OWW started up and taxied.

There is no doubt they are marvelous and well-trained aviators. In my opinion they are using the wrong equipment. The F-16 is great for what it's designed for, which is not an airshow. If they spent more than a third of their time within a mile of the spectators I'd be surprised. I personally find the Warthog demos I've seen more close-in and faster-paced. Imagine these guys with six of those!!

I was told by someone who should know that within a half hour following the Breezy accident Thursday morning, there were over 100 airplanes backed up waiting to leave. We were camping near the Hilton on the North side of 9/27, and after we were told that we watched another 30 or so campers startup to leave before we did the same. No idea if it's normal for that many folks to head out during that time period...just making an observation.

Jim
EAA #64315

[Aaron Novak]

I do not however, know why they had to expand the box so far east. Because they were breaking to the north and west just as much, especially the solo guys who were moving quick and low over pretty much the whole south side of the city.

On our side of the field we got kicked out of the hangars and moved under a tent (which was directly in the t-birds flight path). Made no sense at all. The other gripe is the noise. Airventure has forums and workshops scheduled at a time you cant hear yourself think.

[Mayhemxpc]

In my opinion they are using the wrong equipment. The F-16 is great for what it's designed for, which is not an airshow. If they spent more than a third of their time within a mile of the spectators I'd be surprised. I personally find the Warthog demos I've seen more close-in and faster-paced. Imagine these guys with six of those!!

I was told by someone who should know that within a half hour following the Breezy accident Thursday morning, there were over 100 airplanes backed up waiting to leave. We were camping near the Hilton on the North side of 9/27, and after we were told that we watched another 30 or so campers startup to leave before we did the same. No idea if it's normal for that many folks to head out during that time period...just making an observation.

Jim
EAA #64315

The T-Birds are more than just PR/Recruiting. They are also part of sales. The F-16s they use are fully combat capable aircraft (unlike the Blues F/A-18s). They also market the F-16 as an export commodity, trying to get other countries to think that all they need is the right material to get the same quality pilots. A-10s right now, are absolutely taboo. DoD won't even accept requests for static displays. After all, the public might actually talk to the crew and get the impression that the Warthog is a multi-role platform with lots of life and utility left in it.

My AirVenture experience is only the last five years, but in that time, I have noticed that people start to leave on Thursday. Actually Wednesday, but it is noticeable on Thursday. On the other hand, there are others who don't arrive until Wednesday.

With regard to the other response asking about my son. He was fine. Kind of oblivious as the car was coming up from behind him and he never saw it until after we pulled him away. Even the backpack survived as he only had papers and such in it from KidVenture.

[rbarkerjr]

Some of us older guys have limited interest in the airshows, and use the trams to get around to see other things while the airshow is in progress. Inattentive spectators can't be fixed but every tram driver I've ridden behind dealt with them well.



Understandable, Jim. I have no doubt that the tram drivers do a great job and that the tram service is a valuable one. My only point is that if the tram driver were to get distracted, for any reason, it would be very easy for one of the inattentive spectators to get seriously injured. I think that during the airshow times, maybe there could be an alternate tram route that doesn't drive right down the crowded areas on Whitman. Maybe run them on Knapp during those times... Anyway just my two cents worth. Either way, AirVenture was an absolute blast this year and I'm already counting the days until next year.

[hatz672]

Well, we saw what happened.. from comments from those that got kicked out of south parking area and those that left Friday because they were ticked-off about the prospect of being kicked out, not good. Pelton was all about the gate receipts and how full the parking lot was. The EAA members who got kicked out should be compensated. The performance took an hour, but they were probably only in front of the crowd 5 minutes. BFD.

[nigel hitchman]

I thought there were more aircraft than ever early in the week and an awful lot of departures on Thursday and Friday. Never seen the homebuilt area so quiet as when we walked thru there Friday late morning. I spoke to a lot of people with aircraft during the week and not one was positive about the thunderbirds coming. What really surprised me though was that the Thunderbirds arrived Thursday, taking up another 45 min of airshow time, when something better could have been flying. We saw them as we walked out to go to the parking lot and drive to the seaplane base, they seemed to be flying all over the exhibition area, over the crowds, over the businesses on the east side. So how come that was allowed, but on Friday onwards so many areas had to be evacuated, crowd lines moved back etc. Seems very double standards??!! Or doesn't it matter if they crash on the exhibit buildings when its not an official show? Oh well at least we weren't disrupted on Thursday and could still go to the south 40!
I left before their show on Friday, but was told it was very long and not much time with the aircraft actually infront of the crowd, just as hatz672 commented

[krw920]

Thursday when they came in it was explained that they were establishing their visual ground reference points. The reason for not having to move the crowd line then was they were not doing "aerobatic maneuvers" at that time. I saw the show on both Friday and Sat, and there were not any long lulls between maneuvers than any of the other formation acts I saw those days. Between the 4 ship diamond formation and the 2 solos, they had something in front of show center most of the time, with maybe a 30 second pause between a pass of either the 4 ship group or the solos. Only time it was a bit longer was when they all formed up for the 6 ship formations.

[Fastcapy]

Just saw the numbers. Mon-Fri attendance was up 5%. Sat and Sun the attendance was up 20%. As I have said before. I have lived within 10 miles of Oshkosh my entire life, and it has been many, many years since I have heard the people of the area so excited about AirVenture. Including at least 20 people I personally know would told me they bought tickets for Sat. These people have never been out there or hadn't been out there in 15+ Years.

In a dwindling hobby like ours, getting people out on the grounds to learn more about general aviation is a huge plus in my book.

[BeagleOne]

I'm a survivor of the multiple Sunday apocalyptic deluges. I waited out the first one on the IAC porch, the second in the EAA Welcome Center, and the third in the Aviator's Bookshelf tent, where I bought nine more books and picked up the two display cases I bought when I heard that this was their last year (wah!). I'd be interested to know (although I know it's impossible) how many locals stayed home Sunday because of the weather...which makes the "gate up 20% on Sunday" figure even more impressive. I also wonder how many planes left Sunday morning to beat the weather, who might have waited until after the airshow had the forecast been better.

[FlyingRon]

At least at T-birds show center (which was way down in Vintage), All vehicles were move to the other wise useless and pointless perimeter road. Nothing on Wittman from the Showplane registration booth down to Ultralights.

Frankly, the crowd (at least form the Vintage red barn down, worked well during Saturday's airshow. People held back to the white line just fine. It was busy, but manageable.

One thing I noted is a higher prevelence of CHILDREN in the crowd for the airshow than I've seen in the past for just the WARBIRD EXTRAVAGANZA teamed with Sean D Tucker.

I'm going to call it a success.

The dozen or so kids taking their induction oath into the AF prior to Saturday's show was a bonus.

[asport22]

I've been going to Oshkosh (and I'll probably never call it Airventure) since 1978 - haven't missed a year. Over that time, it has changed a lot, and it's not the Thunderbirds fault - and the Thunderbirds' appearance isn't a symptom of the underlying reason for the changes.

I didn't look back to see what exact years they were there, but the Blue Angels have been there at least twice, the Canadian Snowbirds at least twice (excellent shows, by the way), and even the Italian Freece Tricolori team was there one year. So, military jet teams are nothing new in the airshow at Oshkosh. The thing I could never figure out was why the Thunderbirds never showed up - seemed like they preferred to do smaller shows in places like Davenport IA. (The Army Golden Knights parachute team has even been at Oshkosh a time or two.)

I liked Oshkosh the way it was in the early '80s - back when it was more like what the OP was wishing for. It was always exciting to see the new designs (like Chris Heintz' CH601 - the real one week wonder, not from a CNC pre-punched kit, and they actually flew it before the end of the show), alternative engines, pipe dreams, and a fly market that took hours to go through, with at least three waterless cooker vendors and the original Billy Bob teeth.

To paraphrase the Statler Brothers, "whatever happened to Oshkosh has happened to the best of me." The earliest symptom was the introduction of the Christen Eagle kit in 1977. Frank Christensen was the first person to realize just how much money homebuilt aviation could attract. Old timers were amazed that anybody would pay that kind of money for airplane parts. Burt Rutan, aeronautical genius that he is, failed to appreciate (or refused to) that the Eagle was just the tip of the iceberg and sold plans/materials for the Ezs instead of pre-molded parts. Stoddard-Hamilton and Dick VanGrunsven did not, and the rest is history. Turns out that for every EAA member who wanted to scratch-build a Pietenpol or T-18, there were 15 or 20 who would rather spend cash than time. Engines are even more that way - I'd guess that a small fraction of the Sonexes are VW (or Corvair) powered. People just don't seem to even flinch at paying $20k for an engine. And don't even get me started on glass cockpits (and I retired from a major supplier of glass cockpits to the airlines and corporate jets.)

I think EAA leadership over the years has responded to the membership - it's just that I, (and a lot of other people) aren't the ones they have responded to. If they had ignored the demographic trends and tried to remain solely focused on old-time homebuilding, EAA very well might have ceased to exist. For a comparison, look at the Antique Aircraft Association, which started in 1953. They are an example of staying very focused on their niche of aviation and not changing with the times.

Paul Poberezny even wished for the old days, and started an organization maybe 15 years ago to try to cater to others that thought EAA had strayed from it's roots (Sport Aviation Association, I think? - but before Light Sport was a thing). It didn't last long.

Bottom line - nothing's perfect, but EAA and Oshkosh are the best we've got. Enjoy the parts you like, go hang out in the shade with others who think like you do when the Thunderbirds (or whatever) are on, and think about what you'd be doing if there was no "Airventure".

(And write Jack Pelton thanking him for working for us when he certainly didn't need to, and also for the attempts EAA is making to support the low end of homebuilding. Remember the $10K aircraft displays last year or the year before, and the attempts to promote scratch building this year? They really are trying.)

Warren

[glider90]

I agree with a good deal of what you say, but have attended every year since 1973, missing 2005, 2006, and 2007 due to my father's health. The Snowbirds and Italians are vivid memories. The Blues made a couple passes I guess in 2006, but neither U.S. Precision team ever did a performance there, which is what made this year a big deal. I never thought they would work out the box space to get the high performance jets in there, they proved me wrong. I enjoyed the show, but have to admit I found the Snowbirds and Frecce Tricolori shows more enjoyable. The lower performance jets allow for some better formation displays it seems.

[FlyingRon]

The recent Blue Angel appearance was limited to Blue 7 making a few passes. Amusingly, I was on the warbird approach to 36 when Blue 7 did an overhead break in front of me...quite neat to watch.

[nigel hitchman]

yes apart from single jets, Blue Angles have never been at least since 1984 when I started coming. I missed 86 with the Frecce Tricolori, not sure when the snowbirds were, either 90 which I also missed or before 84.
Well interesting to see that the numbers are up, I would have expected that anyway after such a good year last year and the word getting out that EAA was going away from the big chalets, giant loudspeakers and more back to grassroots. I think that is why there were so many aircraft there early in the week, with more vintage and homebuilts than ever. It would seem that the Thunderbirds caused an increase in the weekend crowd and I guess part of the reason would be that any vaguely interested local would now chose to come at the weekend, when perhaps previously they may have chosen a weekday. Of course a 20% increase on Sunday isn't much there was always hardly anyone there!
I wonder how they count the numbers as there certainly weren't people counting on every gate every day. If its from sales do they assume those with a weekly pass stay all week. OF course many don't and left on Thursday and Friday.
To be honest I wouldn't care if they had the Thunderbirds or another team on the final weekend if it could be done without restrictions on other days, perhaps all the novelty acts and some of the aerobatics could also be moved to a bigger airshow on the final weekend, leaving the weekdays for a shorter airshow with more fly-bys of interesting EAA types like Vintage, ultralights, homebuilts, Seaplanes and warbirds flown by ordinary members not airshow professionals that we have all seen a hundred times.

[FlyingRon]

There were much more people on Sundays than in the past. I was about to call it a bust after the storms came in at the beginning of the airshow, but people must have just taken cover and waited it out as by the time the planes started flying again the crowds were making their way to the flight line.
Not as busy as Saturday though.

[Larry Lyons]

Having replied earlier and stating I was against the pull back of the flight line, I am here to give you our experience. We moved out of our camp site at 1:28pm Friday. No problem, we had earlier moved our pop up shade and several coolers to the new line. Everything went fine for about 15 mins. Then a wall cloud came through, we, due to losing more than one to wind over the years, took our shade down. Shortly after that it began to rain on us off and on for the next 2 hours or more, the temps dropped 10 degrees, and there we sat, cold, wet, and bored! So, I'm sorry but no we’re not happy campers. Some of us were eating when the rain came in and could not go to our tent to finish. Also, is it just us or did Friday's airshow suck? A lot of downtime and then watching RC guys for 20 mins. on top of it! Anyway most of us, 4 planes and about 9 people, left Fri. morning not wanting a repeat of Thurs.

L

[Mayhemxpc]

Larry,

You know the weather you were justifiably complaining about? It affected the air show too. Lots of participants elected not to fly in thunderstorms and hail. The Air Boss made the same decision for others. So, yes, it sucked -- or soaked.

Chris Mayer
N424AF

[Byron J. Covey]

While the T-38 and the F-5 were developed at the same time and I believe the same basic airframe, the F-5 is bigger. 1 foot longer, 16 sq ft more wing area and about 1 foot taller. While the airplanes look similar and do share a lot of the same components, they are totally different machines. I'm pretty sure it would be near impossible to convert a T-38 into an F-5.

I personally think the T-38 and the F-5 are two of the nicest looking airplanes ever built. Sleek, fast and maneuverable. When the T-Birds flew them I think they put on better shows. I have seen them perform with the F-100 (Okay I'm showing my age), the F-4, the T-38 and the F-16. I think the T-38 years were their best.

The Navy aggressor squadron at NAS Key West has to buy surplus F-5's from foreign nations.

[Byron J. Covey]

I consider the "fly-in" to be over on Friday about noon. Apparently so did most of the pilots of the homebuilts in attendance. After that, it becomes an "Air Show" for the non-flying public, apparently for the express purpose of making more money.

Do I like that? No.

Do I like watching the Thunderbirds? No. Their show isn't very good. (The Blues are slightly better. At least the Blues all fly in the same county during a show.) It takes too long, with too little action.

While I'm on a rant, I don't like "Sport Aviation" either. It is the worst that it has ever been, and I have read every issue since it was called "The Experimenter." Get rid of the "Flying" magazine rejects.

Will I attend next year. Yes. I really enjoy attending the forums, seeing the craftsmanship of builders and restorers, talking to experts and amateurs, and visiting with aviation product vendors. I don't really go to Oshkosh to buy pots and pans.

EAA seems to be trying to be everything for everyone, and has become not much of anything for the experimental aircraft owners / operators / builders. Sad.

[Paul Chandler]

Byron,

agree with your comments about the Thunderbirds I first saw them many years ago and I do not think the routine has changed at all and left me a little disappointed. If you want an exciting jet aero team then you have to look towards the european teams such a Red Arrows, Frecce Tricolori etc to see how it can be done. They certainly stay within a much tighter box and in sight of the crowd at all times whereas the Tbirds seemed to disappear for what seemed like ages (only 30 seconds or so) after each pass.

[Mayhemxpc]

My wife would like to see a demo team of A-10s! (Me too). Not so much the aerobatics -- well maybe that too, but something along the lines of the Vietnam display on Wednesday. Not going to happen in the current political environment. For other fighters/attack aircraft, how about a low-level demonstration showing the aerobatic maneuver and then demonstrating its usefulness in Air Combat Maneuvers? I know I am dreaming…but I have seen such things as part of live fire demonstrations (to which family members were invited) and there is no reason why it couldn't be done at AirVenture (less the live-fire part.)