private pilots can be paid for flying as PIC?

[Rick Rademacher]

I received this today in my email ->http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=56804

**The Ohio State University, Angle of Attack (AOA), Research Study / see contact info below .Topic: Volunteer pilots needed to study the benefits of Angle of Attack Displays. Compensation for time. .Date and Time: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 , starting at 8:00 am EST Download Calendar File .Speaker(s): Mr. Marshall Pomeroy (event coordinator) .Brief Description: Who Can Participate:
1. Volunteer pilots with a private pilot certificate having between 50 - 200 hours of total flt time.
2. Time commitment is 3-6 hours. Flight time will average 2-3.5 hours. Compenasation will be based on $10/flight hour. Flight time can be logged at PIC.
3. Flights will be conducted in university aircraft. Flights will begin and end at KOSU**

So, the FAA says it is OK for a private pilot to be paid compensation of $10 per flight hour of logged PIC time to participate in this study. Are they breaking one of their rules? While the study might be important, I would hope the FAA would be constant in what they say we can or can’t do. Does anyone else see the possible conflict with FAA regulations or is this SOP?

[FlyingRon]

Even without the $10 it flies in the face of some FAA counsel decisions that define free flight time as renumeration as well.

[tspear]

Even without the $10 it flies in the face of some FAA counsel decisions that define free flight time as renumeration as well.

Why would you expect the FAA to make sense or be consistent?

Tim

[Floatsflyer]

Well, the notice is right there on the FAA site....so its gotta be OK, doesn't it? Maybe there's something about the wording, "volunteer" pilot that provides some kind of exemption. Or maybe it's the mighty and powerful The OSU that somehow requests and receives some dispensation or special treatment.

Whatever, those close to the OSU airport should apply. 3.5 hours of logged free flying and $35 for your trouble is a pretty good afternoon.

[martymayes]

You guys might be reading too much into it. Nowhere does it say you will be directly compensated for flying the plane. Payment might be for the 2.5- 4 hrs of "time commitment" which is required in addition to the plane flying.

In the end, how do you know the flight time won't be logged as "dual"??? You can certainly simultaneously log flight time as PIC and dual. I'm sure there are some flight time hungry OSU CFI's that want a cut.

[Chuck Arnold]

I may be wrong, but it sure looks to me like the compensation offer violates 61.113. It might just be a case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing at a very large organization, i.e. the FAA. Perhaps OSU typically compensates volunteers in their studies; so OSU sends the notice of the study to FAA, and some helpful person there adds the notice to FAA Safety's events page. I'd be willing to bet though, that if it is a violation, the fact that it's on the FAA's website would be no defense...

[Floatsflyer]

I'd be willing to bet though, that if it is a violation, the fact that it's on the FAA's website would be no defense...

I'd take that bet going the other way. So would every lawyer. "Ipso facto" rules the day.

[Rick Rademacher]

Maybe this is an OSU sting operation to help Michigan pilots get in trouble. Go Bucks!


To play it safe, I would not accept the $10 per hour payment and not log any PIC time. It sounds like an interesting program to participate in if done correctly.

[martymayes]

All 61.113 says is a private pilot can not act as PIC for compensation or hire, excluding a few exceptions.

Wow, paranoia is the rule of the day in this age. I seriously doubt there is anything illegal about this experiment. If I was close by, I'd definitely participate, take their money and log the time.

[Chuck Arnold]

Here's 61.113(a): "Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

I have a hard time seeing how someone can legally act as PIC for "compensation" (other than the pro rata compensation from passengers for fuel) based on my reading of that section.

[Floatsflyer]

Wow, paranoia is the rule of the day in this age. I seriously doubt there is anything illegal about this experiment. If I was close by, I'd definitely participate, take their money and log the time.

+1

It's a focus group for pilots to give feedback and opinion on a product(s). Take the money, the PIC time and run. Wish I lived close. If the FAA is sanctioning this(yes, it's on their site), who are we to argue and get sanctimonious.

[Mike M]

HHere's a thought. Contact MARK DENNIS HARDEN, Phone: (614) 255-3120 ext. 3014,
mark.harden@faa.gov, and get a written reply from the FAA cognizant person to tape into your logbook.

[FlyingRon]

Actually, you can log PIC if you're the sole manipulator of the controls. If someone else (presumably an instrurctor or commercial pilot) is actually the pilot in command during the experiment, you can be paid. The PP limitations all state "A private pilot may not act as pilot in command...."

[martymayes]

Here's 61.113(a): "Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

I have a hard time seeing how someone can legally act as PIC for "compensation" (other than the pro rata compensation from passengers for fuel) based on my reading of that section.

There is nothing wrong with a private pilot logging pilot-in-command time and getting paid for it. As you have stated, the reg only prohibits acting as PIC for compensation.

[martymayes]

and get a written reply from the FAA cognizant person to tape into your logbook.

What for? There is nothing in my logbooks to prove the other 1000's of entries are "legit."

[I_FLY_LOW]

Wish I was there. I could work out a biennial for free...

[Check 6]

This email came from the FAA. The FAA is sponsoring the research. The email specifically says "private pilots." I don't see an issue here.

[Mike M]

What for? There is nothing in my logbooks to prove the other 1000's of entries are "legit."

The other 1000's of entries for PIC flights with private pilot certificate while being compensated? Maybe I misunderstood something. Sorry, I thought commercial cert was required to get the $10 an hour. Wait! I get it now! That's a fed-sponsored program paying less than the executive order requires for fed projects, thus it doesn't count as compensation! :rollseyes:

[martymayes]

Sorry, I thought commercial cert was required to get the $10 an hour.

That would be correct if the study requires the pilot to act as Pilot in Command of an aircraft. Apparently, that's not the case.

It does say participating pilots will be able to log pilot-in-command time but as we know the regs allow a pilot to log pilot-in-command time even when he is not acting as Pilot in Command.

[cub builder]

At $10/hr, it's nothing more than fuel sharing. I don't know of any planes that could participate in this type of experiment that can be operated on $10/hr, so it is clearly a financial loss on the part of the pilot. The Feds re-interpret their definition of compensation regularly. Back in the early 1980s I used to fly glider tugs in return for glider time/instruction. In 1982 the Feds decided to interpret that as compensation, so I had to quit since I didn't have a commercial ticket. Last year, they re-interpreted the same situation as not being compensation, so private pilots are now allowed to fly a glider tug in return for glider time/instruction.

But thank goodness we have lots of internet lawyers to stir the paranoia and interpret the FARs for us. ;)

-CubBuilder

[Floatsflyer]

At $10/hr, it's nothing more than fuel sharing. I don't know of any planes that could participate in this type of experiment that can be operated on $10/hr, so it is clearly a financial loss on the part of the pilot.


-CubBuilder


Whaaaaaaaat? What are you talking about? OSU supplies their own planes. No loss of any kind for anyone participating. Free fuel, free logged PIC time, and 35 bucks for the privilege. WIN,WIN,WIN!!!!

[martymayes]

So a private pilot walks in with empty pockets, gives 4-5 hrs of his time for the research experiment, walks out with $20-$35 in his pocket and he lost money?

Any internet accountants out there care to explain that?

[Bill]

So a private pilot walks in with empty pockets, gives 4-5 hrs of his time for the research experiment, walks out with $20-$35 in his pocket and he lost money?

Any internet accountants out there care to explain that?

"The matter admits of no explanation." to quote from "The Evitable Conflict" in The Complete Robot by Isaac Asimov.

[phliar]

There is another case where a Private Pilot may be compensated for flying: towing gliders. Here's the official FAA Legal Interpretation (dated Nov 3 2010):
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/umphres%20-%20%282010%29%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Excerpt:

"Accordingly, 61.113(g) permits a private pilot to act as PIC for
compensation or hire of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered
ultralight vehicle. Nevertheless, although the glider and unpowered
ultralight vehicle being towed and its passengers are not considered
passengers or property for the purposes of 61.113(a), 61.113(a)
does not permit a private pilot to carry passengers or property in the
tow plane for compensation or hire."

[Gil]

And there is yet another case where a Private Pilot may be compensated for flying, in fact, MUST be compensated for flying. That is when carrying a political candidate or representative of a candidate during a campaign. Look it up.