new to aviation and need some advice on purchase

[h-m]

Hello all, my daughter and i are going to buy an airplane, nothing fancy, but something to train and build time in etc etc.
we are student pilots pursuing sport pilot certificate. our CFI has made a great case for us buying our own plane to train in and build time in, so i have financing lined up etc etc, but need help with direction. two planes that we are considering right now are

1946 taylorcraft bc12-d midtime airframe and low time c-65 connie motor, that is supposed to be good, hand prop, conventional taildragger, etc price is right, it is a certified aircraft and it qualifies Light sport, but it is several states away. has all logs since 1950's.


1979 STITS SKYCOUPE SA7-D Tri Gear, 0-200 Connie low time on airframe and mid time on motor, but annuels good etc, this one is less money, meets Light Sport also, Pilot is elderly and ready to get out of the plane, and is a talker, sounds like he would do anything to help get my daughter and i our license. seems like very nice guy. I know this is an E - AB plane, but that maintenance etc will be easier on us than on the taylorcraft, that being a certified craft. This one is only 5 hours away in the next state which is a plus. this one has all logs for past 20 years.

help, which way should i look???? already had to move away from an ERCOUPE, the guys logs didn't look quite right, seemed like a lot of time missing for engine, so i backed away.

what can you knowledgeable people recommend? I have no problem with any and all maintenance on the AB, been building things, trailers, vehicles, tractors etc for 30 years, so that isn't a problem.

thank you for your help.
micheal

[1600vw]

Define your mission and the plane will present itself to you. Or the style of plane will anyway. From the plane you describe I would say you want to fly for the fun of flying and not really worried about going from point a-b.

I love the taildragger but they are not for everyone.

Tony

[somorris]

A lot of people like the panache of a tail dragger, but the tri-gear will probably be easier for you an you daughter to learn in. Also 1979 versus 1946 is a lot of extra years for tubing to rust, etc.

At any rate, welcome to flying!

[h-m]

thank you all. i like the idea of one of ray Stits nicest planes, i think i might try and see how that one looks etc. thank you for your input!

[Joe Delene]

I like your idea, of buying a plane. How about a simple Cherokee 140? It's a great plane to start with, price should be right.

[WLIU]

If you have never purchased or owned an airplane before, the safest, lowest stress, lowest cost path is to purchase one of the smaller, all metal, Cessnas or Pipers. An airplane is not a lifetime commitment, so once you have earned your pilot certificates, you can sell and apply your new experience and knowledge to purchasing a ship that more closely matches your interests. A Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee will allow you to complete all of the learning objectives required for your pilot certificate, have good support from your local mechanics and parts suppliers, and are proven, reliable ships. When you move away from the common choices and into experimental or antique/classic, you risk lots of distractions away from your primary goal of flying to earn your pilot certificate. You are best served by playing it safe with your choice of airframes and focusing on earning the certificate.

You should also contact an aviation insurer to explore what your potential purchase is going to cost you every year. Common airframes are less expensive to insure than less common ones, and expect to hear that your entry-level student status increases the cost also. If you give the insurance broker the airplane info, to include age, total hours, type, they can offer you a quote.

Whatever your choice of airframe, do not skip the first step of hiring a mechanic to do a pre-purchase inspection of the engine and airframe. It is very worthwhile to pay a mechanic $500 to avoid making a $10,000 mistake. Many first time buyers have experienced great stress and financial pain by skipping this step. This step is likely going to be your first learning experience about aircraft ownership and maintenance. Hire a mechanic who is not the sellers mechanic and listen to what they have to say.

Aviation is a great adventure. More than you can guess standing at the door looking in.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS
N6234A
N78041

[rleffler]

I can't stress enough the importance of the three items that Wes highlighted.

1. Piper and Cessna entry level aircraft are going to be cheaper to buy, maintain, and insure. I had a Cherokee 180 for almost four years. I got my instrument rating and my son got his private. I even invested $20k into the panel. I sold it and broke even on the purchase cost. You may not be able to do this with other model aircraft. Buy something inexpensive to get you and your daughter's ratings, then sell it to get something that fits your mission better afterward.

2. Always talk to your insurance agent first. Some aircraft just don't have a good history with low time pilots. I know a sitituation in which two pilots each built the same model experimental. One pilot had 350 hours and the other 150 hours. There was a $7k difference in their insurance premiums for this particular airframe. Several folks have tried to get their spouse on their policy, but no uunderwriters were willing to insure zero time pilots on this experimental. You want to know what your insurance will be before you make an offer. It may even cause you not to look at a particular model. I suspect that there will be a premium bump for a zero time pilot in a tail dragger. If you want to fly something that may be expensive to insure (and you can't afford self insuring) then build time in the trainer until have appropriate ratings and time that will make the insurance more affordable.

3. Never buy any aircraft that a mechanic that you hire and doesn't have any relationship to the seller does a complete annual or pre-sale inspection. Yes, this will cost you money. When I was shopping for my Cherokee, the mechanic found damage history that the current owner wasn't aware of becuase they didn't do their due diligence when they purchased the aircraft. Also make sure you get a copy of all data on file in OKC on the aircraft in addition to all the logs. There are several firms that will get the FAA records for a small fee. This is how the damage history in my situation was discovered.

[h-m]

thanks all, i am glad to have all the suggestions on here. one problem is that we are pursuing sport pilot certificate and and most planes don't meet the Light Sport Class. the taylorcraft and the Stits both do but the Faa list is pretty short for certified planes that meet lsa. some Luscombe, some Aeronca, some Ercoupe, the Taylorcraft all from the 1940's, then we move to S-LSA and most of them are $55,000 and up to well over $100,000, so that is pretty much out, so then we come back to insurance if i can get it on the Experimental, so i will go there right now and see what i can find. thanks very much for your help.

[Floatsflyer]

There are other used choices you might consider amongst the previously known group of ultralights that are now LSA's. Check out a Challenger, it has a great rep and the company has a long history of being in business.

[h-m]

ok, thank you will do. i appreciate it.

[ssmdive]

1. Why are you looking at light sport? Is it a medical issue? If not, then I would just get a full blown private ticket and if you want, you can let the medical expire and exercise light sport privileges. Talking to people around here, the real world times between the light sport and private ratings are not that different and private has some advantages (plane, altitude, speed..etc).

2. A better quality plane is more important than the type of plane. For example, I'd rather have a very good condition "B" than a marginal "A". So while the "A" may be the better type of plane, the better condition of the 'lesser' plane would make it the better buy. So a prebuy is imperative and DON'T get in a hurry. (more on this later).

3. Don't discount some other type of planes. My first plane was a Quad City Challenger II Clipped wing special. It was a great plane and if it was not for the two stroke engine and the desire to fly acro, I would of kept it. I bought it for less than 10K, had the engine rebuilt for 1400, bought a new prop and some other stuff and still broke even when I sold it a year later and 113 hours later.

OK, the two stroke.... I only had the plane 113 hours. I had one engine issue that was my fault and one that I never figured out what the heck happened. None of them resulted in an engine out for me, but in the year I owned my two stroke I personally knew three guys that flew with me - Two had engine outs, one had two engine outs. It may be easy to say these guys just don't know two strokes, but one has been flying two strokes for 20 years and was on the EAA's Ultralight Council and the other has been flying two strokes about as long. Compare that to people I know that fly 4 strokes and I have known lots of people over 20 years and three of them have had engine issues and none of them caused a crash (blown jugs). If you have a very good grasp of 2 strokes AND a good support base, they can be fine and I LOVED the way the Challenger flew. In the end, I never trusted the two stroke and since I wanted to do acro, I sold the plane and bought a 7ECA.

Now about not rushing.... The desire to buy something is strong. BUT, you don't have to buy to start learning to fly. I'd start learning to fly now and this will help take some of the pressure off wanting to buy RIGHT NOW. This has an added benefit of not only removing the rush to scratch the 'itch', but will also give you experience. This experience gained will give you a better idea of what you want.

The benefit to renting when you start is it lets you fly several different types of planes. Maybe you will like to open cockpit feeling, maybe you will hate it.... You don't know which it will be until you try it. Maybe you want a taildragger, maybe you hate them... You don't know till you try them both. The type of plane you buy is all on what you want to do with it. I like acro, so a non-acro plane is not an option. My buddy just likes to put around, so his favorite plane is his J3. Another buddy thinks that a plane is worthless unless you can fly it 1000 miles IFR so he wants a Bonanza over any of the preceding planes.

I'd suggest you start taking flight lessons now and try to fly different types of planes.

A few other points..... Hand propping. I don't mind it when I have a buddy, I don't like it by myself. Opinions will vary. As others have pointed out... Buying a plane is not a forever deal. I have been an aircraft owner for a little over three years and have owned three planes (maybe I should of taken my own advice???).

[Max Torque]

Micheal,

I have owned several airplanes and have flown thousands of hours in numerous types of aircraft, and I would like to suggest that you consider the ubiquitous Cessna 172. When one factors in acquisition costs, insurance, maintenance, ADs/SBs/TBs/etc., parts availability/cost/etc., annual inspections, modifications available, resale, aircraft capability, etc., the 172 is definitely a good choice for a first time buyer/low time pilot.

I prefer high wings as they allow a better view of the countryside below and one can sit or stand under the wings to get out of the sun and rain, and they make better off airport planes (e.g. if landing on unimproved strips, the wings are higher off the ground and don't get as readily dinged up from rocks and such and they are up above small bushes/jack pines/weeds/etc.)

That being said, you might seriously consider just renting for awhile until you have some experience under both of your belts and have flown a few different types of planes.

If you rent, (if you don't have one already) consider getting your own insurance policy that protects you and that also covers the renter's deductible and loss of use as many places which rent airplanes have a fairly high deductible and some might sue for loss of revenue while the airplane is being repaired should it get damaged.

Tom

[Janet Davidson]

Lots of good advice on here.

You might also want to consider a flying club. I believe it is a great way to get your toes wet in aviation - it allows you the time to learn all about aviation & aircraft ownership while giving guidance from others who will, hopefully, help you avoid any of the potential pitfalls. It also helps reduce the costs involved in both ownership & learning to fly, and helps with the social side of flying. What's the famous Paul saying? Aeroplanes brought me here, but it's the people who keep me coming back, or words to that effect. Hang around an airport for a short time & you'll find how very true that is.

Club ownership will broaden your circle of aviation friends, & broaden your aviation knowledge far more effectively & easily than owning your own plane would, along with joining your local EAA chapter, of course ;)

AOPA has a great article on the benefits of flying clubs this week.


http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/May/20/Student-pilots-tout-benefits-of-flying-clubs-for-flight-lessons.aspx?WT.mc_sect=fin&WT.mc_id=140523epilot

Buying your own plane to learn to fly in has it's advantages, no doubt about that, but it's not always the absolutely best way to go, especially if there are alternative options available to you.

If you are set on buying, I'm with the others - go for something very well known & proven as a trainer - C150/2, Champ, Cub, Luscombe, Ercoupe, Cherokee. As your first plane, I'd avoid one that has to be hand-propped if possible. It's not impossible (obviously as that's how folks used to learn!), but it can be intimidating & if there is an easier alternative, worth looking into. Especially take into account your daughter's age & strength. I know I could not easily have hand propped a plane when I was 16 or 17, although I was probably the fittest I've ever been.

[h-m]

wow, thanks for all the great advice on here! you guys have great suggestions, i really appreciate it. we will see where we go from here. thank you all very much.
micheal