Hauled off in handcuffs for an engine out....

[1600vw]

If the AOPA does not come to this mans aid I am dropping my membership for just what good is it?......


http://abc7news.com/news/one-taken-into-custody-after-emergency-landing/54145/

Tony

[Jeff Point]

I watched the news story and I'm sorry but I fail to see the outrage. He landed (innocently enough) in a heavily guarded, high security area. He was detained briefly while security determined that he was not a threat, then released and allowed to return to the plane to get personal belongings. The story doesn't say but I'm sure they then started working out a plan to recover the airplane. What would you have them do differently?

[martymayes]

I watched the news story and I'm sorry but I fail to see the outrage. He landed (innocently enough) in a heavily guarded, high security area. He was detained briefly while security determined that he was not a threat, then released and allowed to return to the plane to get personal belongings. The story doesn't say but I'm sure they then started working out a plan to recover the airplane. What would you have them do differently?

^^^ this ^^^

[Bill Greenwood]

To 1600vw,

The AOPA folks are the good guys, they are on our side and do a lot of lobbying for gen aviation. Cutting off their support, even the very few $ that a membership costs you, only helps whatever govt agency that is trying to hit gen av flying.
It would be a boring world if, like some other countries, "flying" only meant riding on an airliner.

[Floatsflyer]

Sorry Tony, Jeff Point has precisely encapsulated the facts of the event in a rational, dispassionate manner. I can't add any more except, in the words of the Bard, "much ado about nothing."

[1600vw]

Oh I see guilty until proven innocent.

Tony

[1600vw]

I watched the news story and I'm sorry but I fail to see the outrage. He landed (innocently enough) in a heavily guarded, high security area. He was detained briefly while security determined that he was not a threat, then released and allowed to return to the plane to get personal belongings. The story doesn't say but I'm sure they then started working out a plan to recover the airplane. What would you have them do differently?


Not be hauled away in cuffs. Why not speak to the man and help him not arrest him, even if later he was let go. Guilty until proven innocent. He had an engine out what did you expect him to do?

Tony

[TedK]

Not be hauled away in cuffs. Why not speak to the man and help him not arrest him, even if later he was let go. Guilty until proven innocent. He had an engine out what did you expect him to do?

Tony
This is not Guilt or Innocence, it is Threat or Non-Threat. And after the Washington Navy Yard, and Norfolk Naval Base shootings, the Feds are rightly being very cautious.

This is nothing new. There was a movie in the 50s about the SAC and USAF that showed the same sort of thing.



This isn't a case of storm troopers charging you at the GA Airport, this is landing in a place you don't belong where you could pose a threat.

lighten up. The gent was quickly back at his aircraft sans cuffs.

[rbarkerjr]

This is not Guilt or Innocence, it is Threat or Non-Threat. And after the Washington Navy Yard, and Norfolk Naval Base shootings, the Feds are rightly being very cautious.

This is nothing new. There was a movie in the 50s about the SAC and USAF that showed the same sort of thing.



This isn't a case of storm troopers charging you at the GA Airport, this is landing in a place you don't belong where you could pose a threat.

lighten up. The gent was quickly back at his aircraft sans cuffs.

Absolutely right, Ted. Threat or non-threat? That is the REAL question. I have worked in many high-security areas and that would be the number one concern if a "strange" aircraft decided to land on your property. Thankfully everyone is ok and their lives will get back to normal.

[1600vw]

Posted on another thread...I could not have said this any better.....

He was outside the secure area. Look at the fences. He's between the low perimeter fence and the barbed wire, right by a road. I've never been there, but Google Earth shows fields all around the outside of the secure area and none inside. What security should have done is approach cautiously and see if he needed assistance, then escort him off the property. Yes, there was a non-zero chance that he was some sort of nut, and maybe even of the subset of dangerous nuts. But that had to be way down the list of probabilities.

Treating every blip like a terrorist invasion is not a good security practice and doesn't make anyone safer. This is right up there with sending the sheriff after the glider pilot who circled over a cooling tower at the nuke plant. Sure, he could have been a terrorist, but so could my sister. The problem is that when you're trained as a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And we've got too many hammers nowadays, and not enough Andy Taylors.

[Infidel]

Escorting the pilot away from the Cub in handcuffs WAS overkill. A short cursory investigation would've likely revealed the circumstances of why he landed there and that same contact would've determined he was not a threat. I've seen this all too often though; when you have "security" guards that work a day in/day out mundane boring job and when the slightest thing happens that breaks up the monotony, they capitalize at the chance to utilize their training.

Did they have to handcuff and secure the pilot? Probably not. But then, I don't know what the facilities protocol is when an "unauthorized" entry on the grounds occurs. So it's possible the guys were doing what they were supposed to.

Now, if the pilot did land there because of an engine-out emergency and he can articulate that was his only viable area to safely land and he is criminally charged, we should then be irate.

[martymayes]

we've got too many hammers nowadays, and not enough Andy Taylors.

Andy Taylor was a fictional character.

[WLIU]

For better or worse, a lot of law enforcement protocols these days implement the "handcuff everyone and then sort it out" philosophy. What happened to this pilot is the same thing that happens when there is a neighborhood altercation and the police arrive to restore order. I will suggest that this approach is not healthy for citizen-law enforcement relations, but post-9/11 every government facility looks at unexpected visitors as potential terrorists. Guilty until proven innocent.

How to change this? Get involved in politics. If your town/city/state/federal politicians get heat from their constituents, they will mandate change. But if they hear nothing, nothing will change.

Some years ago in NY state, there was a skydiving center not far from a state prison. Once a year or so the skydivers would misjudge the winds and one or two would land inside the prison grounds. They all knew that the guard staff would be immediately pointing all of their weapons in their direction and that the errant skydiver(s) were to just stand there and make no threatening movements. The prison staff would spend some time expressing their displeasure and then escort the skydivers to the gates after making sure that the errant landing(s) were not part of an inmate escape.

All of that said, if you have to land off the airport, it is best to recover your sense of humor quickly as anything can happen. After walking away with no injuries, everything else is a bonus that day.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, "Strange aircraft"? Who you calling strange? I've got one of those, a J3 Cub and they are great to learn in and to have fun. It's got everything you need in a plane, a wing, in this case a big high lift, low stall wing, a real stick to control it, and a propeller. The only problem I can see is the ugly metal prop out front where is should have a beautiful and light wood one.

[1600vw]

I only speak for me but myself I am getting tired of those who claim to be protecting me to be the ones shoving me around. It happens in my car, as I walk down the street, and now I have to watch where I land if I have an engine out. I must worry am I landing somewhere that I will have guns pointed in my face. Bad enough one has to deal with an engine out now one must worry about just where they put this airplane down.
I was flying a small 2 oz rc airplane and had 7 cop cars pull up and I thought I was going to be beat, for flying an 2 oz RC airplane. Our police are getting out of hand. I am glad I am pushing 60, time to exit stage left.
The next time someone asks, why do you stay above your airfield, I will print this and shove it under their nose.

Tony

[martymayes]

Welcome to the new world. As the US will be a terrorist target for the foreseeable future, expect more of the same.

[WLIU]

"I was flying a small 2 oz rc airplane and had 7 cop cars pull up"

If you stop doing what is normal and legal, then your local folks learn nothing. Keep doing what you do and educate them. Then when they get a call from someone who is less educated and acclimated, the dispatcher will ask better questions of the caller and likely tell them that what you are doing does not warrant a patrol car stopping by.

You and I pay for these municipal services. If we do not demand value for our tax $$, we will get none. Does not mean we should not be polite and friendly, but we should be firm. Kind of like how we want the EAA and AOPA to work with the FAA.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Floatsflyer]

For better or worse, a lot of law enforcement protocols these days implement the "handcuff everyone and then sort it out" philosophy.

Wes
N78PS


We'll then, society and it's relationship with the cops is improving, isn't it? Those protocols, in places like parts of the south and Detroit in 1967-73 used to be gun out, shoot, yell halt, ask questions....if the target wasn't already dead.

Aahhh, isn't progress wonderful?

[Floatsflyer]

I only speak for me but myself I am getting tired of those who claim to be protecting me to be the ones shoving me around. It happens in my car, as I walk down the street, and now I have to watch where I land if I have an engine out. Tony

OK, now the genesis of your outrage is becoming apparent. By your own admission, you are being harassed by the cops and as you infer, for no apparent reason. Why is this happening to you?

What is it about your demeanour, behaviour, appearance, dress, look that raises questions or concerns by the cops when you're in your car or walking down the street? Something is raising red flags. You've got to answer this question and/or ask the cops.

[1600vw]

OK, now the genesis of your outrage is becoming apparent. By your own admission, you are being harassed by the cops and as you infer, for no apparent reason. Why is this happening to you?

What is it about your demeanour, behaviour, appearance, dress, look that raises questions or concerns by the cops when you're in your car or walking down the street? Something is raising red flags. You've got to answer this question and/or ask the cops.


I guess you would be correct if it was just happening to me. But all you have to do is research and you will see this happens all over America. When I said in my car I am talking about check points. Myself I have not been pulled over by the police in almost 30 years for a traffic offense. But I still must deal with all the check points.

Raising red flags....that is funny

Tony

[1600vw]

The day the police came when I was flying this little RC airplane I had just been released from the hospital, I am sitting on a sidewalk and flying this little rc airplane in a body cast. This " demeanour " you speak of... I have no idea, please in lighten me.

Tony

[Floatsflyer]

Hmmmm......RC airplane, body cast, sitting on a sidewalk. Looks and sounds very suspicious. Actually, I'm visualizing a great start to a very funny SNL skit.

[Blue Chips]

I'd be looking forward to some funny skit myself, unfortunately, the direction and mindset of today's local, State and Federal law enforcement personal and to a somewhat lesser degree, security, their growing willingness to do you bad, because they can, at least to me.......is anything but funny.

[1600vw]

People think its funny until it happens to them.

Tony

[Frank Giger]

Why the handcuffs? Because in our era of personal exceptionalism, people can't handle being handled as individuals.

So Joe Pilot engine outs his Cub on the back field and the security guys walk up cautious and then are amused at his situation pretty much immediately. They follow procedure and detain him for further screening, including a quick pat down and handcuffs "for everyone's safety." They probably apologized while they did it, explaining that it was a requirement for anyone that is caught on property without authorization.

The reason everyone gets handcuffed during detainment is so that nobody can say they were unfairly and roughly treated, or intentionally humiliated by the security force. It's part of the SOP, so when some protestor cuts the wire so that he can vandalize the place and starts swearing, spitting, and generally not cooperating he can't whine that he was singled out.

Everyone wants special treatment until it's not the kind they want; then they want no more or less than what everyone else gets and will scream bloody murder until the company settles out of court for a huge payday.

"You were acting like a jackhole so you were treated like one," isn't something a judge is likely to say nowadays.

[Greg Wilson]

Watching the news clip it sure looks like just "S.O.P." for the unauthorized entry, likely quite restrained given the surprise of an airplane gliding in silently to the area. The news report shows the pilot escorted back,sans cuffs, to retrieve items from the plane. If the pilot is prosecuted for the emergency landing then it would be a problem if escorted out and released when no threat is found it is a good ending. As to opinions of the Andy Griffith show era, if this happened in the sixties at a nuclear facility he likely would have been shot at the scene.

[rbarkerjr]

Ron, "Strange aircraft"? Who you calling strange? I've got one of those, a J3 Cub and they are great to learn in and to have fun. It's got everything you need in a plane, a wing, in this case a big high lift, low stall wing, a real stick to control it, and a propeller. The only problem I can see is the ugly metal prop out front where is should have a beautiful and light wood one.

Bill -
I didn't mean strange in a weird sense.:| I meant strange as in it doesn't belong there! Personally, I love the Cub. As you said, "It's got everything you need in a plane..."

[JimRice85]

This particular pilot likely had greater security clearances than the security forces. He is a freshly retired USAF U-2 pilot as well as Cub owner/pilot.