Changes for the Thunderbirds

[MEdwards]

The Vintage email newsletter today told of a meeting last weekend for planning Vintage activities at Oshkosh 2014. Among many other things, it says: "Rick Larsen, EAA Vice President of Marketing, joined the meeting for over an hour to update the team on changes necessary for the T-Birds airshows..."

Anybody know what those changes are going to be?

VP of Marketing is doing this? Yep, unfortunately, that sounds about right.

[Max Platts]

MEdwards,

Both Rick Larsen and Sean Elliott met with our flight line operations chairmen and volunteers to discuss the changes in normal flight lines ops that hosting the Thunderbirds presence. Rick Larsen is not only the VP of Marketing but is the VP of Features and Attractions for AirVenture and is pilot and aircraft owner that is quite knowledgeable in the field of aircraft and airshow operations. There are many very talented people working on the logistics behind bringing in the Thunderbirds and working to ensure that it is a success.

[MEdwards]

[The gentlemen] met with our flight line operations chairmen and volunteers to discuss the changes in normal flight lines ops that hosting the Thunderbirds presents.Thank you. I'm sure he's a fine fellow, and I have no quarrel with the need for marketing of EAA, AirVenture or General Aviation (or the Air Force!).

I asked, "Anybody know what those changes are going to be?" Obviously somebody does. Is anyone saying, or do we not have a "need to know"?

[FlyingRon]

Down at Lakeland they seem to have scrubbed some of the close in crowd (particularly the campground) out of the way during the Blue's performance (the campsites stayed there but the people were forced out).

[Max Platts]

I asked, "Anybody know what those changes are going to be?" Obviously somebody does. Is anyone saying, or do we not have a "need to know"?[/QUOTE]

At the present time we are just working to get a time finalized for the T-birds performance and working to ensure that they have the proper aerobatic box for their performance. Once everything is finalized we will let members and the general public know what the changes for the days that the Thunderbirds perform will be. As for right now we are still in the planning and logistics phase of hosting them.

[Bill Greenwood]

Thursday has been "jet day" for the last 10 years or more. Seems like Thur afternoon or on Wed afternoon with the Vietnam acts would be a good time for them to fly.

[MEdwards]

Bill, the days are set in the Thunderbirds schedule online. Max said they're just working on the time. The weekend, Sat, Sun. Probably a good move. Many, including myself, often don't stay for the weekend, but this will be an incentive.

[MEdwards]

Today the answer came as to what changes to the flightline and camping areas will be required to accommodate the Thunderbirds. In today's Vintage Air Mail the president of VAA says: "The size of the [Thunderbirds' performance] box will require us to shift the show line by 120 feet to the west, which will put the burn line at the speaker poles on all three of those days [Fri, Sat, Sun]. Presumably that will be for certain hours during those days.

That will move the burn line a little less than half the distance from the normal burn line toward Wittman Dr. About three average aircraft wingspans. So anybody parked in the first three spaces won't be able to get to their planes during those hours. I assume Vintage will still be parking people in those first three spaces earlier in the week, or we'll all be squeezed down to North Fond du Lac.

Doesn't sound too onerous to me. As the VAA president admits, however, it will take some work to enforce it because it's a pretty major change to what people have been used to for years.

[FlyingRon]

At SnF the Blues pushed everybody out of the runway side of the campground for the duration. It wasn't a big thing. We had to scrub everything from the road to the taxiway a couple of years ago after one-eyed-Jack's crash, so I don't think this will be too difficult.

[Kyle Boatright]

At SnF the Blues pushed everybody out of the runway side of the campground for the duration. It wasn't a big thing.

It was a pain at SnF when the Blues' schedule changed and we were blocked from our camping area (food, vehicle, shelter, chairs, etc.) for several hours instead of the advertised hour window. That shouldn't be the case at Osh, but the military teams have a big impact on these shows.

It isn't clear to me whether the revised show line at Osh will be in place for just the T-birds show or for the entire show on Friday-Sunday. Can anyone clarify?

[Hal Bryan]

Here's the summary, Kyle:



There will be full access to the entire flight line until 1:30 p.m. on Friday and Saturday, August 1-2. However, there will be announcements and signs informing those who set up chairs and blankets in front of the Thunderbirds crowd line that they should set up behind that line.
From 1:30-5 p.m. on Friday and Saturday, the area between the Thunderbirds crowd line and the regular crowd line will be cleared of people, except those needing access to their aircraft. Those people will be escorted to and from their aircraft.
From 5-6 p.m. on Friday and Saturday, no one will be allowed between the Thunderbirds crowd line and the regular crowd line. Following the Thunderbirds’ performance, operations will return to normal.
In addition, the entire aircraft parking area and Seaplane Base bus stop south of the ultralight airstrip will follow the same restrictions schedule. That will allow the Thunderbirds entry and exit from the aerobatic box.
On Sunday, August 3, the crowd line will be moved at noon and the no-access time will be 3-4 p.m., because of the earlier start to the air show and the Thunderbirds performance that day.

[Kyle Boatright]

Here's the summary, Kyle:



There will be full access to the entire flight line until 1:30 p.m. on Friday and Saturday, August 1-2. However, there will be announcements and signs informing those who set up chairs and blankets in front of the Thunderbirds crowd line that they should set up behind that line.
From 1:30-5 p.m. on Friday and Saturday, the area between the Thunderbirds crowd line and the regular crowd line will be cleared of people, except those needing access to their aircraft. Those people will be escorted to and from their aircraft.
From 5-6 p.m. on Friday and Saturday, no one will be allowed between the Thunderbirds crowd line and the regular crowd line. Following the Thunderbirds’ performance, operations will return to normal.
In addition, the entire aircraft parking area and Seaplane Base bus stop south of the ultralight airstrip will follow the same restrictions schedule. That will allow the Thunderbirds entry and exit from the aerobatic box.
On Sunday, August 3, the crowd line will be moved at noon and the no-access time will be 3-4 p.m., because of the earlier start to the air show and the Thunderbirds performance that day.


Thanks, Hal.

[Aaron Novak]

Hey Hal,
Any truth to the word going around that the Thunderbirds might be a no-go due to one or two homeowners that do not wish to vacate their property?

[Hal Bryan]

Aaron - I don't honestly know about that, but I know that we are waiting on a handful of details before we make the big push announcement-wise. The details I posted above were from our volunteer newsletter. It may have been premature to share them publicly, frankly, but I wanted to give some clarity since the topic was already being discussed.

[Roger Janssens]

I've just had another look at the implications of the Thunderbirds displaying and am still not convinced that I should book flights etc. to attend AirVenture this year. My main interest is photography, and I was e.g. looking forward to the CAF B-24 displaying on the Friday this year. But if I have to take (take-off or landing) photos from the speaker line, I might just as well not bother.
Of course the rumoured Vietnam focus during the Wednesday airshow might have changed things, but that doesn't even feature as one of the 'daily themes'.

[FlyingRon]

I've just had another look at the implications of the Thunderbirds displaying and am still not convinced that I should book flights etc. to attend AirVenture this year. My main interest is photography, and I was e.g. looking forward to the CAF B-24 displaying on the Friday this year. But if I have to take (take-off or landing) photos from the speaker line, I might just as well not bother.
Of course the rumoured Vietnam focus during the Wednesday airshow might have changed things, but that doesn't even feature as one of the 'daily themes'.

The speaker pole line will only be in effect in the vicinity of the Thunderbirds performance. At other times you should be able to walk right up to the old burn line (well the modified burn line we've used for the past dozen years, it was moved back after the DC-3 ended up in the ditch on takeoff a while back).

Sun n Fun moved things back (mostly evicting people from part of the camping ground) for the Blues.

[Roger Janssens]

The speaker pole line will only be in effect in the vicinity of the Thunderbirds performance. At other times you should be able to walk right up to the old burn line

Thanks for your reply, Ron, but Hal (and the volunteer newsletter) said people wil have to move back from the burn line at 1.30 pm. That's about the same time that the sun actually moves to the west side of 18/36 and runway photos start to be possible. Morning photos on 18/36 are useless. So the Thunderbirds displaying means I will not be able to take photos on the main runway until after 6 pm on the Friday (typically main warbird airshow day) or the Saturday.
Moreover many people will wonder what the 1-hour gap before their actual flying display signifies.

[FlyingRon]

My guess it's to keep sweeping the area to make sure that they've gotten everybody out.

[nigel hitchman]

Hi Roger,
yes its going to be real pain for photos during the main warbird airshows on Friday and Saturday. The best area for photography is usually on the flighline south of where the Cessna 195s are and this year we aren't going to be able to get there for the whole time of the warbird airshow. Not only is the new line going to be too far away-the current burn line being just close enough for photos of the fighters takingoff and landing even with my large 400mm lens,but worse there are going to be lines of parked aircraft in the way, giving only a small gap where the aircraft are in view. If we have to have the Thunderbirds why not move the big warbird displays to Wed and Thur before the T-Birds arrive.
During the afternoon airshow is also a great time to visit the "south 40" beyond the ultralights and away from the loudspeakers and crowds, but we wont be able to do that now. I bet all the warbird parking will be off limits for hours now too.

Why does Oshkosh need the Thundebirds? I don't understand. Ive had almost 30 years of going without any jet teams and its been great. Last year with no modern military at all was one of the best years in recent times. Oshkosh is way better, has way more to see and is a much better event than all those other shows that need the jet teams. We have a unique event bettered nowhere, why take this massive backward step.

Hasn't EAA seen what has happened to Sun+Fun, once a week long great fly-in, but now half empty parking areas, a shadow of the old event and all happened since they started to invite the jet teams and close the airspace for hours while they arrive/practice/display. Sure they might get lots of local public at the weekend, but they have driven a lot of the core EAA members away.

Please don't let Oshkosh go the same way! Personally I cant really see that with the fantastic array of warbirds, vintage, homebuilts, ulralights already on display, how having the Thunderbirds is going to persuade someone not interested to come before to now decide to spend their money and come in to Oshkosh. Im sure the Thunderbirds will generate a lot of non paying locals on the outside though!

Im leaving early this year, after the warbirds on Friday. I think a lot of others will be leaving early before all the restrictions too.

[FlyingRon]

We;ll have to see how it goes. I can't tell you the number of times the question has been asked "Why doesn't Airventure have the Blues or T-birds?" asked over the past 20 years. This will be an experiment in how compatible it will be. Frankly, I'd rather see the blues or tbirds than the Jet Powered port-o-let or whatever Shockwave is supposed to be or the Masters of Stupidity type demonstration.

Sun-n-Fun has been blighted even without the Blue Angels. I usually am there are Monday because we hold the annual ANS meeting and like Airventure, it's not been like it used to be.

No matter how they tinker with the Airventure schedule the last day is always a ghost town. It used to be the venders even disappeared towards the end of the show, and unnerving to me who was still paying for my camp space, they started taking away the portolets and stuff the day before the last day. We'll see what a big airshow on Sunday does for things.

[mazdaP5]

. We'll see what a big airshow on Sunday does for things.

I'll tell you what it does in my case. I still have to work Monday morning. They could land the space shuttle on Sunday, I'd still have to split before the airshow.

[Bill Greenwood]

Are the the jet acts flying all three days of the weekend? What time?

I think if Wed is going to be Vietnam day, then one day ought to be primarily about D Day since this is the 70th anniversary of the day when finally the Allies got back on the continent of Europe after 4 long years. It certainly wasn't the end of the war, there was a lot of fighting and a lot ot dying left in Europe as the Nazis ground forces fought hard. But Churchill said after the narrow RAF victory in the summer/fall of 1940, "it is not the end, maybe not even the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning". June 6th probably was the beginning of the end, the time after which we were on the course to victory, not withstanding the last German effort at Battle of the Bulge.

Fri, would be a good day to honor D Day and its vets, and as a country it is a heck of a lot more worth remembering than trying to make it seem like the Vietnam War was anything other than the worst thing our country has done since slavery and the Indian wars.
There weren't any jet acts over Normandy in 1944, unless it might have been a Me 262. I'd like to see something like a C-47, maybe one that really is a Normandy vet, fly over and drop parachute troops. I know there are no flying troop gliders anymore, but having one of them come into show center would be great and meaningful.

The jets can fly on the weekend, and the EAA fllight line could be kept as it has been for EAA till then. As for as my vote would go, EAA could give the entire day of Sunday to jet acts.
I suspect if EAA took a simple poll of members, ie How many days do you want jets to fly and how many days is it worth altering the flight lines and crowded areas like Vintage for them? EAA would probably win that vote, who knows for sure? But EAA doesn't take such polling, all the decisions come from the top down so that it gives the impression that the members are the secondary part of EAA, as it were ,just like employees.
Another part of the poll which EAA doesn't take and won't take could be to see how much of the week and show should be devoted to commercial acro acts. There are a few that I like to see, especially the first few times, but many members have written that this has been overdone in the past. Some of the acts have an announcer screaming at you about how wonderful the act is and it is so overdone it would embarrass a used car dealer.

[FlyingRon]

The current rumor is Friday and Saturday 2:30 or so and Sunday at 1.

Maybe they can get the Liberty guys to do something commemorative when they jump en-mass.

[MEdwards]

5pm Fri & Sat. 3pm Sun. According to EAA.org, Wed June 11. Guess you must have missed it.

[Tom Steber]

The Thunderbirds will perform what they describe as a “practice show” – basically, a full dress rehearsal for the weekend – at 5 p.m. on Friday, August 1. This comes at the end of the regular afternoon air show, which features the full World War II warbird extravaganza, and prior to the return of the Old Glory Honor Flight from Washington, D.C., that is part of AirVenture’s annual “Salute to Veterans” activities.On Saturday, August 2, the Thunderbirds will again fly at 5 p.m. as the final performers in the afternoon air show, which once again features World War II aircraft and full pyrotechnics. The aerial excitement on that day will continue in the evening with the second of the two night air shows during AirVenture week. The Thunderbirds will wrap up their inaugural Oshkosh performances at 3 p.m. on Sunday, August 3, as the closing act in AirVenture’s final-day air show.

[Tom Steber]

That all being said, their still going to make everyone move back probably BEFORE the show starts at 2-3:00. Now, like all you other "Oshkosh Old Timers", you know as well as I do that Friday and Saturday are usually really packed because of the warbird show and recently the night show too. Can you picture bringing in all the extra people that will pay to get in to see the Thunderbirds. And pack them into an even smaller area now? I'm sure it'll be a learning experience for the staff as well. I for one am looking forward to seeing them fly. But, I hope that it's not going to be an every year thing. I think their doing their best trying to make up for not having any military present last year. I'm going to do my best to reserve judgement until after the convention.

[FlyingRon]

Most of the crowed was within thirty feet of the "burn line." It was pretty sparse once you got a few planes back so I'm hoping that it won't be too congested if it just moves back 100'. Back when Airventure was more crowded than it is now the burn line was 30 feet closer to the taxiway than it is now.

[nigel hitchman]

and of course in the homebuilt parking, 100 ft is the whole of the current parking area, its pretty thin up there between the golden Arch and the warbirds.
Id also rather see the Thundebirds than the jet truck, or replace some of the aerobatics, and only if they didn't disrupt the rest of the show. If they arrived and displayed at the end of the show on Saturday and then did the Sunday show and there wernt any crowd restrictions, then I wouldn't mind. But closing such a large area of the flightline for 3 days is a disaster.
Id rather see more warbirds flying and more "interesting" vintage aircraft fly-bys, like we had the two Howard 500s last year, Ju52, Ford/Stinson Trimotors, Golden age of air racing or Reno racers, the likes of the DC7, or Save-a-Connie if they get it in the air again. The unique stuff that Oshkosh attracts, not these jet teams that you can see somewhere every weekend of the summer.

[FlyingRon]

I hear they're also losing half of the "aviators club" or whatever they call the reserved seating.

[Jeff Point]

and of course in the homebuilt parking, 100 ft is the whole of the current parking area, its pretty thin up there between the golden Arch and the warbirds.


It's actually about half of the area, east-west. The displaced show line will be right on the speaker pole line, if that helps for a reference.

Also- parking will not be displaced; aircraft will still be able to park in the entire area and folks will be able to look at them, except for the limited times of the T-birds flight when access will be restricted.

[Bill Greenwood]

If we've got to have jet teams, having them at 5pm seems like a good compromise. I can be somewhere else by then, and gone by 3 pm on Sun.

[FlyingRon]

If you're departing in an airplane, you better plan your departure much earlier than that.

[flybuddy]

The military teams have caused great damage at Sun N Fun. The strong base of hardcore attendees have diminished due to lengthy and ever changing access restrictions. Additionally, it's absurd to move countless folks in the name of safety and then fly directly over the crowds at low level during the show. I don't blame Airventure for attempting to bolster attendance and trying this but, I believe, long term that they will regret it. I dabbled with going this year but this turned me off.

[Mike M]

common knowledge that the Friendly Aviation Advisors drive most of this stuff about airshows and safety lines, right? and that their rules are flexible depending on what aircraft, speeds, aviator quals are, too? ref for a lot if not all of it is FAA Order 8900.1, volume 3, chapter 6.

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/waiver/media/common_spec_provisions.pdf

[flybuddy]

The demonstration teams pretty much drive the rules. Here's a copy of the T-Birds requirements. Page 26 gives the space requirements. It's interesting to read all of the required support and how much of a major undertaking this is.

http://afthunderbirds.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2013-Support-Manual-1.pdf

[Mike M]

The demonstration teams pretty much drive the rules. Here's a copy of the T-Birds requirements. Page 26 gives the space requirements. It's interesting to read all of the required support and how much of a major undertaking this is.

http://afthunderbirds.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2013-Support-Manual-1.pdf


Absolutely. Teams each have their own support manual. I never read the tbird manual, never hosted them, thanks for the link. Confirms my suspicion, they're much the same for military teams. I was part of NAS cadre hosting blues five times. Major pita and I don't mean flatbread. The stories shall remain untold to protect the innocent, just in case somebody was.:)

[nigel hitchman]

wow, that rule manual contains an awful lot of things that EAA will have to do!
But it also says that the host organisation has to pay for the Thunderbirds show!!! But hasn't it been said before that EAA wont pay for aircraft to attend Oshkosh? Didn't we have this discussion about Jerry Yeagan's Mosquito? Id much rather see the Mosquito, much more appropriate to our event.
I also wonder what was paid to compensate the businesses closed down on the east side of the airfield and people who have to leave their homes?
EAA also have to provide 34 cars/minivans as well as a police escort to get them to/from the airfield!! Numerous hotel rooms when you usually cant get a room, but at least the military pays for the hotel.

The Thunderbirds rules also say the crowd line must be behind snowfence or physical barrier and that all static display aircraft must be well behind the crowd line. I guess EAA got around those two rules.

Looking forward to a great week upto Friday!

[FlyingRon]

Most likely they found a sponsor to pay for it. Just because the EAA doesn't fork over the money doesn't mean that other affiliated sponsors won't.

[Mayhemxpc]

6k per day as a partial off-set for TDY expenses is better than paying for the fuel…which is done for the other airshow aircraft.

All in all, having any of the military demonstration teams is a high-maintenance (that is, time and resources) event.

[FlyingRon]

6k per day as a partial off-set for TDY expenses is better than paying for the fuel…which is done for the other airshow aircraft.
EAA doesn't pay for fuel either.

[flybuddy]

EAA is probably paying for some of the fuel. The manual states that Fuel must be provided and they will only reimburse the DOD contract amount (believe it's $3.73 for JP8), EAA would be responsible for the difference to the vendor. They estimate 16,200 gallons needed for a weekend show.

[Paulk]

Firstly let me say how much I love Oshkosh, this year marks 30 years since my first trip from the UK. I fully appreciate the increasing financial pressures that OUR association is under to deliver a convention that brings in enough revenue to offset the huge costs. However, as a long-serving member I really must question whether the significant disruption from accommodating the Thunderbirds increased aerobatic box is worth it?? The airshow on Friday, Saturday Sunday will see very significant areas cleared of people. The key point that most people don't seem to realise is that people will have to watch the ENTIRE airshow through maybe 5 or 6 rows of parked aircraft! Many of us who are there for a week can go to do our flying shopping etc but I suspect paying members of the public on a day visit will not be best pleased that they don't have a clear view, not only of the runway with the arrivals / departures but also the low level airshow acts -have you ever tried to watch a show through a crowded aircraft park in front of you?

In addition, aircraft owners that set-up camp to accommodate friends adjacent to the burn line will be ejected, the southern parking areas south of ultralights will be cleared (a lot of people / members who fly in, park there to enjoy the event in peace away from the speakers) and I suspect the wonderful, yet increasingly hard-pressed volunteers, will have to deal with a lot of potentially frustrated members and public.

Of course its too late to stop the boulder rolling down the hill but I do hope that lessons are learnt at the very top. The Thunderbirds are of course a wonderful team and as someone who spent 28 years in the Royal Air Force working closely with the USAF in many operational theatres, I appreciate the value of such great ambassadors for the military. But sadly I believe its a big mistake, the size of which will only be appreciated by the majority during the latter part of the show. See you all there, on Sunday to Thursday at least :) Cheers, Paul

[FlyingRon]

Except for the people who get there early enough to sit right on the burn line, people have been watching the airshow through "parked aircraft" for years. The airshow by and large takes place IN THE AIR. There are people wet up in lawn chairs all over the grounds and I suspect we'll see them lined up right at the speaker poles.

It's an experiment. People have been griping for the 20+ years that I have been going to Oshkosh that the blues or the tbirds never perform and in the past it was said it was "impossible." Well, with some pretty tough work and even a little bending of the rules (normally these acts wouldn't even allow EMPTY aircraft past the line), it is possible this year.

I'll reserve judgement.

[eraucubsfan]

First time commenter, but I would like to weigh in on this. As one who has been to many different types of airshows over the years both fly-in and military, I dont think the pushed back line will bother most. You will still be seated closer than most airshows to the performers. I think you'll have a pretty good view of the T-birds. Even when you sit on the burn line you're often still looking thru aircraft. Other airshows have the same issues, try going to a military airshow and trying to watch with C-130s and C-5s in the way. Yes I like to be on the burn line for the warbirds, but it isn't the end of the world for me. Personally, I'm glad they are bringing in acts like the T-Birds. Over the years, except for a few acts, the afternoon airshow, to me, can get a bit boring. I think acts like the T-Birds will bring in more revenue and help the secure better acts or displays for the future. As FlyingRon said above I'll reserve judgement., but regardless I wont stop coming. Oshkosh has become for me a lot more than just the airshow. For me its a chance to hang out with all my airplane dork friends and family, see unique aircraft, rub elbows with aviation "celebrities" and have fun camping and relaxing. I think many people have gotten spoiled over the years with how awesome Oshkosh really is.

[FlyingRon]

I was at Sun-n-fun this year which had the blues and had to do similar things. Of course it's smaller and way more laid back but couldn't really see anybody complaining.

[nigel hitchman]

true that lots of people do watch the airshow all the time thru the parked aircraft and sitting well back. But not anyone who wants to take a descent photograph, they are all on the burn line and there are lots of them. Particularly for the warbirds, which a lot of people come to see, the only time you can get good photos, is when they are taking off and landing, many of the fly-bys are too far away, yes ok for B25s, B17s and big formations, but not the rest.
Sure a lot of the airshow isnt that exciting, I do get fed up seeing the multiple aerobatics acts. But the Thunderbirds are that exciting either, formation fly-by, the wait 3 or 4 minutes and they come back the other way in a different formation. Maybe a few opposition passes. Im sure they will bring in lots of locals to sit outside the fence. But I really cant see that many people who aren't interested enough in the fantastic show that Oshkosh is, to suddenly pay to come in because the Thunderbirds are there.
I must say Ive never heard any Oshkosh regular say they wanted the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels there and everyone without exception who Ive spoken to about it has said they thought it was a bad idea and a backward step in the wrong direction. Especially after the success of last year and an apparent welcome step back to grassroots, reversing the trend of the previous year with big speakers and corporate Chalets blocking the flightline.

[FlyingRon]

Well, this will be my 24th Oshksoh, and I've heard "why not?" any number of times in the past. I find the idea that this is "a neat idea" vs. "a total disaster" roughly split 50-50. Frankly, the Blues at SnF was pretty successful in my estimation.

[BeagleOne]

Wow, if I were a homeowner I would be TICKED at having to vacate my home during the airshow. I am one of the Sunday stalwarts who stays for the entire airshow and watches planes depart afterward. It will be interesting to see how things are different this year.

[MEdwards]

Friday evening and the webcams show several rows of Vintage are full. It appears they are trying to avoid having anybody straddle the relocated burn line (perhaps to avoid access disagreements during the Fri-Sat-Sun airshows). Looks like they're basically losing one space in each row to the Thunderbirds, thereby pushing everybody south. Not a big deal, just another thing when considering whether this is worth it or not.