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rosiejerryrosie
07-20-2011, 08:00 AM
Let's get some new things started here in the new forum.
Just found out that a state representative in Pennsylvania is introducing a bill to outlaw the addition of ethanol to mogas here in PA. Great news! Hope he can get the bill passed....

Chad Jensen
07-20-2011, 08:46 AM
That is great news! Hopefully other states will follow! :cool:

Lisa Akoya
07-20-2011, 07:09 PM
Great news!

mbond
07-21-2011, 05:07 AM
That is good news. I live about 10 minutes from the PA boarder, wouldn't be hard to get gas. That makes the idea of an ultralight even more appealing.Question: I recently saw a boating commercial for a fuel additive that is supposed to reduce the effects of ethanol on an engine. A quick google found several such products. What are the thoughts of using these additives in ultralights?

steveinindy
07-21-2011, 06:13 AM
Unless you're willing to potentially bet your life to prove that it works at altitude, I wouldn't try it but that's just me.

rosiejerryrosie
07-21-2011, 07:14 AM
That is good news. I live about 10 minutes from the PA boarder, wouldn't be hard to get gas. That makes the idea of an ultralight even more appealing.Question: I recently saw a boating commercial for a fuel additive that is supposed to reduce the effects of ethanol on an engine. A quick google found several such products. What are the thoughts of using these additives in ultralights?
I agree with Steve. I am reluctant to add anything to the fuel that is keeping my engine turning, especially an additive supposed to counteract the effects of an additive.... Also, I'm not sure which of the negative affects of ethanol it is supposed to correct....

steveinindy
07-21-2011, 07:17 AM
To be completely honest, I feel that same way about mo-gas that you folks seem to feel about the ethanol being commonly added to it: I don't want it in an airplane I am riding in. The aircraft I am working on is going to be Jet-A fueled for a couple of good reasons (to avoid the need to re-engine later when 100LL is finally phased out; to reduce to the risk of a post-crash fire). To each and to their own though.....fly safe my friends.

rosiejerryrosie
07-21-2011, 07:24 AM
I see your point, Steve, but my airplane was built to run on Mogas and now I'm forced to use 100LL, which is also not good for it, but better than ethanol contaminated fuel.
What engine are you using in yur airplane?

steveinindy
07-21-2011, 10:28 AM
I haven't decided yet since I am still very much in the early planning stages. I was originally intending upon using an aviation deisel but there is a distinct lack of designs out there that meet the needs we have so it might wind up with a turboprop like a PT-6A. Once I get to Oshkosh next week I am planning on talking to a couple of different manufacturers to see what is on the horizon since it will likely be five to six years before I ever get around to needing an engine. At the moment, I am more involved with designing the subsystems (seats, cockpit layout, fuel tanks, etc) to get a better idea of what the empty weight of the aircraft would be.

Part of me has thought about just going all out and designing the aircraft around one of the smaller jet engines out there. However, I have serious concerns about getting into something that complicated for my first major design.

n3pup
07-21-2011, 07:25 PM
I am using a VW engine so mogas is much the cheaper way to go. However, the nose tank is an old fiberglass tank that will become "gooey" from alcohol. I am all for mogas without the ethanol.

steveinindy
07-21-2011, 07:32 PM
By the way, I settled on an engine today. I am going with a Rolls Royce M250-B17F turboprop.

flyunleaded
07-21-2011, 09:57 PM
Can you identify the state representative, and has he made any press releases? I can find no reference to a bill on the web.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
07-22-2011, 06:29 AM
No state will be able to completely ban ethanol in fuels since the Federal government has mandated production quotas in the EISA 2007 Act, the same law that will dictate the end of incandescent light bulbs. States can, however, pass laws that specify where the ethanol may and may not be used. For instance, all states with mandatory ethanol laws for highway vehicles, like California, exempt airplanes and most other off-highway uses of ethanol blends. But gas companies are not required to sell this ethanol-free fuel, which is why the new company Clear Gas (cleargas.co) must truck it in from Nevada for use at airports, marinas, race tracks, etc. You'll find a great deal of information on this topic on our GAfuels blog at GAN, http://www.generalaviationnews.com/category/opinion/gafuels/ Attend my forum at 10AM on Wednesday, 7/27/11 in Oshkosh for guidelines on how to find ethanol-free autogas suppliers and how to get it onto your airport. Details on the forum are here: http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011/07/12/gafuels-author-to-speak-at-airventure/#more-45713

rosiejerryrosie
07-23-2011, 05:50 PM
Can you identify the state representative, and has he made any press releases? I can find no reference to a bill on the web.
I'm gonna have to do a litle research. I got the notification in an email from an acquaintance and did look at the news release in the York, PA local paper, but I've forgotten the Rep's name and the title/number of the bill. If I can find it, I'll be getting back to you.

Joe Delene
07-24-2011, 03:40 AM
I have my ethanol 'test kit' & am able to find several stations here in WI that sell non-ethanol fuel, usually 91 octane. I agree with the above poster, ethanol is a big federal issue, hard for one state to make much headway without help at the fed level. It's a big money/subsidy 'merry-go-round', plenty of special interests enjoying the ride.

rosiejerryrosie
07-24-2011, 07:41 AM
Can you identify the state representative, and has he made any press releases? I can find no reference to a bill on the web.

It is State Rep Seth Grove of the PA 196th District. His bill is discussed on his web page http://www.repgrove.com/NewsItem.aspx?NewsID=11966 Look at the side bar on the left.

flyrgreen
09-06-2011, 10:02 PM
Regarding fiberglass tanks & ethanol--- yes they will deteriorate from contact with ethanol, but if you can remove the tank & cut it open in a way that allows for a good reseal, you can save it. Sand all surfaces and re-cover with Vinyl Ester Resin. Impervious to alcohol. My VW-powered KR-2 is quite happy with it.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
09-07-2011, 05:54 AM
Even if you do find a sealant that will tolerate 10% ethanol blends, be aware of a few issues:

1. No state checks the actual amount of ethanol being sold. Unscrupulous retailers have been known to put up to 30% ethanol into what they sell, if the subsidies and other factors make this worthwhile.

2. The EPA approved 15% blends late last year. While there are many reasons why it will take some time before we see this at gas stations, there will be retailers that will jump the gun and start selling it, perhaps without the required labels on pumps.

3. The EPA's ultimate goal is to take our fuel to E85, 85% ethanol. There are no sealants out there now that will handle this for vented fuel systems like those we use.

4. When an aircraft sits parked for days/weeks/months as is often the case, ethanol absorbs moisture in the air until phase separation occurs. This water/ethanol mixture sits in the bottom of your tank an is highly corrosive. Jabiru aircraft earlier this year rescinded its previous approval of E10 fuel for its aircraft because of this problem.

The best solution is the simplest one - NO ETHANOL! You'll find it at gas stations and marinas listed at www.pure-gas.org. The best list of airports selling ethanol-free, lead-free autogas is http://www.flyunleaded.com/airports.php

Join the free Aviation Fuel Club to stay informed on low-cost aviation fuel solutions, http://www.aviationfuelclub.org/

Read how ethanol in our fuels is costing Americans millions in property damage:
http://pure-gas.org/petition

Dana
09-07-2011, 04:38 PM
The best solution is the simplest one - NO ETHANOL! You'll find it at gas stations and marinas listed...

Unfortunately, in some states (like Connecticut where I live), there is no ethanol free gas (other than avgas, which is also bad for engines not designed for it). Actually CT law mandates oxygenated gasoline but bans MTBE, which leaves ethanol as the only alternative. Although non ethanol fuel is technically legal to sell at airports, the airports that did sell mogas don't any more, since the distributors add the ethanol at the terminal and won't specially handle the relatively small amounts that an airport would buy.

Sadly, as long as there are powerful senators in corn growing states, there will be ethanol in gasoline.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
09-08-2011, 06:35 AM
Dana, you might want to check on the oxygenate law in CT; many states have rescinded these with the advent of cleaner fuels and more sophisticated engine controls in recent years. You are indeed in an ethanol-free "desert", but other states have found solutions. Take for instance Mike Willey of the Norridgewock, Maine airport, who searched for a supplier and found one in Orleans, VT, D&C Transportation. They bring the fuel in from Quebec, Canada. Any airport or marina now in NH/VT/ME can obtain ethanol-free premium as a result of one person's effort. All it takes are a few determined people to make this happen. You will find many allies among pilots, boaters, motorsports enthusiasts, snowmobilers, etc. Make sure too your state and federal representatives are educated on the disastrous consequences we all face as a result of our nation's biofuels policies. We need a ban on ethanol in premium fuel to preserve a safe fuel for hundreds of millions of engines damaged by it. Not having E0 means we pilot must use more leaded avgas than necessary.

flyunleaded
09-09-2011, 12:06 AM
It is State Rep Seth Grove of the PA 196th District. His bill is discussed on his web page http://www.repgrove.com/NewsItem.aspx?NewsID=11966 Look at the side bar on the left.

This bill will actually do nothing because the ethanol mandate in the In-State Production Incentive Act of 2008 has never triggered and probably never will. The original bill required an in state production trigger of corn ethanol, but that was changed in the final act to 350,000,000 gallons of cellulosic ethanol / yr. Considering that the federal RFS mandate this year is for 250 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol and the 30+ cellulosic ethanol companies have told the EPA that they could deliver maybe 6 - 10 million gallons, I doubt that this ethanol requirement will ever be met.

flyunleaded
09-09-2011, 12:18 AM
Unfortunately, in some states (like Connecticut where I live), there is no ethanol free gas (other than avgas, which is also bad for engines not designed for it). Actually CT law mandates oxygenated gasoline but bans MTBE, which leaves ethanol as the only alternative. ...

Actually CT has no oxygenate mandate that I am aware of. Winter oxygenate mandates were required by the EPA, not the state. The winter oxygenate program in CT is now in a contingency measure in SW CT. See http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b05013.pdf

H (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b05013.pdf)owever CT has a Reformulated Gasoline requirement according to this EPA table: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinefuels/rfg/areas.htm Although in the past RFG had an oxygenate requirement, it no longer does, so ethanol need not be a component of RFG.

Dana
09-09-2011, 05:12 AM
OK, but either way, ethanol is the only alternative since CT bans MTBE. The real problem is that the lawmakers are clueless about the science (or lack therof!) behind the laws they're passing, but they all want to look "green". Hmmm, sounds like laws relating to global warming... er, no, it's "climate change" now...

Bill Greenwood
09-11-2011, 08:21 PM
I filled up the car today in Boulder and noticed that the pump said oxygenated fuel. I am not sure what that is, don't think it is ethanol? Is is "green" and is it ok to use in airplanes of any kind that can run on car gas? I use 87 octane in the Mercedes, but it is available up to 91 octane. I am not going to use car gas in a plane, just curious about it.
I have used car gas in my Cub a few times, couldn't tell any difference.

rosiejerryrosie
09-12-2011, 06:56 AM
I filled up the car today in Boulder and noticed that the pump said oxygenated fuel. I am not sure what that is, don't think it is ethanol? Is is "green" and is it ok to use in airplanes of any kind that can run on car gas? I use 87 octane in the Mercedes, but it is available up to 91 octane. I am not going to use car gas in a plane, just curious about it.
I have used car gas in my Cub a few times, couldn't tell any difference.
As far as I know "oxygenated" is a euphanism for "ethanol added". Your Cub will run fine on Car gas but if it contains ethanol, it could, over time, do bad things to fuel lines, seals, etc. The alcohol will also attract and retain water which, over time, could lead to corrosion of important parts... Use it in an emergency but use it fast. Disclaimer: I am not a petrolium engineer and all that I have said has been gleaned from conversations with others....

Dana
09-14-2011, 05:27 AM
There are a number of different oxygenate additives, MTBE being the most common. Due to health concerns, some states (including CT, where I live) have banned it. Ethanol is also an oxygenate, but it has to be used in much larger quantities to get the same effect, and it must be stated on the pump. If there's no ethanol, there's no reason not to use car gas in the older engines like in a Cub (though to be legal, you need the STC). If the engine is designed for 87 octane, car gas is better for it than 100LL. The type certificate for my 1941 T-Craft (A-65 engine) simply said "73 octane minimum".

Bill Greenwood
09-14-2011, 09:20 AM
THanks, Dana.
I don't see any good reason to use car gas in my Cub. I did try it about 15 years ago a few times, Ithink that was before ethanol. I don't recall any major difference that I noticed, or really remember. It may have been a little harder to start than with the av gas.
A Cub only burns about 4 gal an hour in my C 90, and I only fly it 20 hours a year or so. So even if I saved about $2.50 per gallon in costs, that is $50 a year. For that I"d have to have the inconvenience of going somewhere to buy the car gas in its own container and maybe storing some. I don't have a hangar and don't want to keep a can of gas in my car or garage. I'd need a funnel or spout to pour it inthe tank, probably getting gas on my hands or clothes.
Now if it has ethanol in car gas, I'd risk hurting some of my fuel system.
I don't have some idealogical slant against av gas. I know it may have more lead in it than a Cub needs, but it seems to start and run fine. And most of all it is proven and convenient , most airports sell gas and you just use the hose and spout provided to pump it into the tank with a minimum of fuss and bother.
We built a Starlite with a 2 stroke Rotax engine. It has been about 20 years, but it may have called for car gas and we may have used Amoco unleaded, I can't recall for sure. We flew it a year or so and sold it. It was in the Detroit area last I looked. A sleek fun little plane, VERY LITTLE, only weighed 254 lbs and went 150 mph or so.
I wonder if anyone is using just or mostly car gas, and how many hours they actually fly a year and how much they actually save once all costs are counted. And what do they do if they fly cross country.?

Dana
09-14-2011, 04:40 PM
I use mostly car gas in my plane (Cuyuna 2-stroke engine), perhaps 50 hours/year. The engine manually specifically says to avoid avgas. The lead can lead to buildup in critical areas, namely spark plugs, and (on 4-stroke engines) valve seats. For engines designed for 87 octane avgas, the use of a lead scavenging additive like TCP is recommended to avoid these problems. Just because I mostly use car gas doesn't mean I won't fill up with avgas when I go cross country, and I also use avgas late in the fall because it keeps better, for those winter months when I fly less frequently.

Bill Greenwood
09-15-2011, 09:32 AM
Dana, I have some training, Air Force, as a mechanic and just some general engine knowledge. As for as I know, while lead or an excess of it, may cause spark plug fouling, I have never heard of it hurting valves. In fact lead is known to help cushion and preserve valve seats and may lube valve stems. Exhaust valve failure is a problem in the Cont engines like in my Bonanza. Of course, the Cont reps blame it on the pilot operation, just like Beech blamed it on the pilots when tails were failing on quite a few v tail Bonanzas. These same pilots, like myself, did not have exhaust valve problems when we flew a Lycoming in our Mooney, nor did the tails fall off many or if any Mooneys. Other than engine problems, I like to travel in the Bonanza.
It has been a long time since we built and flew the Starlite. I know it had a Rotax 2 stroke, perhaps a 337. I think we did may have used Amaco unleaded car gas, can't be sure and don't know if the manual called for that or if we just did it on our own. I was mostly the test pilot, only did a small part of the building as I injured my knee just after we started and couldn't do much. Trying to fit a chute in that little cockpit was tight, but the plane flew ok.
The 2 stroke engine sounded awful at idle, like you were shaking a can of marbles, but smoothed out as power came on, and it never failed us. I don't recall an trouble with plugs.
I have flown a Gobosh LSA with a water cooled 4 stroke Rotax and it seemed like a good engine, of course using normal 100 LL avgas.

Dana
09-15-2011, 11:22 AM
Bill, you may well be right and I be wrong. I know that engines designed for leaded fuel had valve stem lubrication issues when run on unleaded fuel, but I recall valve issues with excess lead as well... one mod was replacement (Stellite?) valve seats to deal with it. Or perhaps I'm thinking of something else...

n3pup
09-15-2011, 01:06 PM
Let's see 20 hours per year at 4 gallons per hour is 80 gallons per year. $2.50 savings per gallon is $200 per year savings. Someone with 50 hours per year saves $500 per year to put toward hanger rent or insurance. Sounds good to me.

Bill Greenwood
09-15-2011, 06:25 PM
Dana, as I said I am not aware of any valve seat issues caused by leaded fuel. I think Stellite valve seats came along to deal with problems of exhaust valve seats when overheated, like in turbocharged planes. I wonder if this might have been when we went to lower lead fuel like 100 ll. I am not sure.

And my math left out a step, if you fly 20 hours at 4 gph and save $2 per gal, that's 160 per year or at $2.50 saving per gal is $200. I wouldn't take a chance on fuel system damage from avgas that might have ethanol for that amount. Now if you did something like fly jumpers in a Cessna or pipeline patrol for hundreds of hours, then savings might add up.

Bill Greenwood
09-15-2011, 06:28 PM
As for insurance, I wonder if most policies or any would cover a plane using car gas? It might depend on if you had an STC or if that model of plane or engine was tested and approved for auto gas.

n3pup
09-15-2011, 06:30 PM
Of course the FAA has now authorized the use of VLL or very low lead gasoline according to the latest reports.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
09-16-2011, 05:26 AM
Folks, their are volumes of information on this issue in many places, for instance our blog at General Aviation News, http://www.generalaviationnews.com/category/opinion/gafuels/ Just a few excerpts from there: (a) there are 14 models of Bonanzas whose engines are approved for autogas; (b) Lycoming's use of Bendix fuel pumps on the engines in Mooney's and other aircraft are highly prone to vapor lock, the reason autogas STCs do not exist for them; (c) insurance will of course cover any FAA-approved TC or STC for autogas; this is a non-issue; (d) 100VLL is essentially the same as 100LL, this approval will really change little in terms of opposition to leaded avgas; (d) Nearly all new generation engines (Rotax, Jabiru, ULPower, D-Motor, Lycoming, etc.) are designed to run on premium, ethanol-free, lead-free autogas. Why? Because once outside the US and Canada, Avgas has disappeared or is very expensive; (e) Italy's Tecnam, the world's largest maker of light aircraft, has an all-autogas fleet of airplanes, from 2-seat LSAs to 11-seat twin-engine commuters; (f) Avgas producers are disappearing, we're down to 8 in the US and they are all west of the Mississippi; ExxonMobil announced their departure from GA last month. In the future, there will be two primary aviation fuels, autogas and Jet-A. Avgas will be around for awhile as long as the market will support it. This is tough news for those who need a 100 octane fuel, but good news for the 90% who don't. Switching to autogas will not only end our problems with lead, but will save us millions, and perhaps help reverse the overall decline in sport aviation. On lead in valves - this is a huge problem for low compression engines, since most piston engines were never designed for the high levels of lead in 100LL or 100VLL (which is really no different than 100LL). My old Conti C-145 in my '52 C-170B ran great on 91+ AKI ethanol-free autogas. When Amoco stopped selling it (thanks to BP's draconian cost-costing after the merger) I was forced to switch to avgas, which is when the problems started. Sticking valves, a new jug, lead on the plugs, sludge on the belly, an eventual in-flight engine fire and loss of the aircraft, fortunately noone was hurt. Note too that Jabiru and Rotax strongly recommend against ethanol blends and leaded fuel, since these engines are (like most newer aircraft engines) designed to run on premium, ethanol-free, lead-free autogas.

Bill Greenwood
09-16-2011, 09:29 AM
It is a pretty big jump to say that 100 VLL is "no different than 100LL". What is the practical , not theoretical proof of that? How many hours or years in how many types of aircraft engines IN ACTUAL USE, does 100VLL have. Just because the FAA or whoever may allow or even approve 100LL is not very convincing. A few years back an approved engine oil, I think it was Mobil One ruined many aircraft engines, and the maker had to pull it from the market and pay for lot's of overhauls. To be fair, I think they did that ok. .So just because it works in the lab, sounds good to academic types, and works in autos does not make it the same as something proven over years of use.

As for an engine fire in a C-170 having anything to do with avgas use, I really doubt it. Can you produce any NTSB/FAA report that lists avgas use as the cause of an accident in any C_170 or similar production plane with a standard aricraft type engine? If not, your account sounds a little like something from a Michele Bachman campaign. My friend flys his C170 or 140 ,can't recall which here from Denver often and on avgas, just like his T-6 or his Be 36 TC.

As for engine practice in Italy, I don't know much about that, but doubt if it has much to do with the U S, We probably have more gen av in one state in the U S than all of Italy.

As for Mooneys, I don't know much about their fuel pumps, except mine always worked for the 15 years or so in the M20 C and the M20 J I owned. I didn't have any problem with vapor lock that I recall. My Bonanza is hard to start when the engine is warm and on hot days, unless the boost pump is on. Seems that is vapor lock.

I have no financial stake in avgas, except as a pilot and owner of a couple of high power planes that need at least 100 octane performance, and I have no stake in auto gas except as owning some stock on gas companies.
I don't have any devices or STCs to sell.

I have heard that many of the new type engines like Rotax or Jabaru that came from a non aviation background like snowmobiles or cars, operate fine on car gas. But that is not a major part of aviation in the U S, at least not yet.

Bill Greenwood
09-16-2011, 10:26 AM
If you wanted to use auto gas in a normal engine airplane, say a Cub or 182, not 2 stroke auto type and you are going to buy the gas at a service station, since only a few FBOs sell auto gas, How do you know it does not contain ethanol? Can you rely on the markings on the pump? Or can you rely on state regulations? To be safe do you have to have a test kit and test each batch of auto gas?
Are there some areas of the country or states where auto gas at airports is becoming more common?
If you do get gas with ethanol in it, how long before a problem arises in a normal fuel system, again talking about standard aircraft engines, not Rotax etc.

Dana
09-16-2011, 04:28 PM
To be completely certain there's no ethanol, I guess you have to test it. Otherwise, you have to rely on the integrity of the seller that it's properly labeled, and perhaps state laws regarding labeling. But that's true even of avgas... I found myself and my T-Craft in a farm field years ago because of contaminated avgas... after that, I stopped buying avgas from the local FBO and ran only car gas (this was before ethanol), except when I went cross country.

Ethanol has four major problems: It attacks seals not made with compatible rubber compounds (or fiberglass tanks not made with compatible resin), it absorbs moisture which can cause corrosion, it runs leaner (especially a problem with 2-stroke engines), and it delivers less power. I would be very leery of an older aircraft engine's seals; I don't know if replacement components used on more recent overhauls use the newer compatible rubber compounds.

Note that Rotax allows up to 10% ethanol now... and with the growing LSA market, these engines are becoming a significant part of aviation.

kmisegades@bellsouth.net
09-18-2011, 06:05 AM
Bill:

(1) The EAA has stated that 100VLL is the same as 100LL, it seems that Avgas has in reality had the same levels of lead as the new 100VLL standard for some time, read the article here: http://eaa.org/news/2011/2011-09-15_100vll.asp

(2) I flew my C170 for about 600 hours in 5 years, 150+ hours in the year I lost it to a fire. After switching from autogas to avgas I started having problems with valves sticking, lead deposits on the plugs and the usual lead sludge on the belly. Ask anyone who flies a plane with an old, low compression engine and they'll tell you the same stories. The wreckage of my plane showed a gaping hole in the head where a valve had once been, an indication of a stuck valve. The NTSB has never made a final ruling and probably won't as there were no injuries and minor property damage other than the loss of my plane.

3. On Italy - you need to get out more. Sport Aviation is alive and well in Europe. When you compare regions with similar climates, some of these countries have more pilots and airplanes per 1000 residents than we do in the US. Tecnam, founded originally as the old Partenavia company in 1948, is the world's number one producer of light aircraft and a majority of their planes are used outside Italy. They are one of the most popular aircraft you'll find today in US Sport Pilot flight schools. Their P2006T twin Rotax is an amazing plane, burning a mere 9 GPH autogas total. They are now working on an 11-seat twin under contract to Cape Air, to replace the companies fleet of Cessna twins.

4. Mooney - my comments on vapor lock were for autogas, not avgas. But vapor lock does occur with avgas in many aircraft under the right conditions.

5. Rotax, Jabiru, etc - 70%-80% of all piston-powered aircraft today run just fine on 91AKI autogas. Those needed 100 octane fuels are in a small minority, but this does not mean they should not have a fuel, too. Let's not force however the majority of aircraft owners to buy more octane than needed. The LSA sector is the only one growing in GA, and these aircraft generally use engines designed for autogas, that's a fact.

6. Ethanol-free - One must check any fuel you buy at a gas station for use in an engine not made for ethanol. That includes boats, chainsaws, law mowers, in total some have estimated 650 million gas engines are negatively affected by ethanol. Do not trust a label on a gas pump.

7. Rotax - had approved up to 10% ethanol but Rotax owners are strongly advised to use 91+ AKI ethanol-free, lead-free autogas, not an ethanol blend, and not leaded avgas. Jabiru recently rescinded past approval for E10 in their aircraft due to evidence of damage to fuel tanks. They require ethanol-free now.

Where to find autogas:
At retail stations, use this list: http://pure-gas.org/
For airports, use this list: http://www.flyunleaded.com/airports.php

You'll see from the first list the rapid rise in listings:
http://pure-gas.org/chart

There are more airports selling autogas in 2011 than in past years, and you'll see a continued rise. In contrast, FBOs have been dropping 100LL avgas steadily as many focus solely on Jet-A.

SavannahVG Ken
09-23-2011, 12:52 AM
Interesting thread. I only use part 100LL in my 56 Chevy, as it was designed for lead to lubricate the valves. I would have suspected more users to be familiar and comment with the Rotax specs of using MO-GAS vs 100LL to maintain a 2000 hour TBO. My 912 ULS 100hp has to have twice the oil changes and spark plug changes with 100LL and is more particular of what oil I use than with mo-gas, not to mention the price. $1.71 difference in my area. I only use 100LL in it if I am dry and a ways from home. There are a few stations in Oklahoma that have 91 pure gas close to my ariport, so I haul it. I am concerned of the quality, as we all should be (I once found residue of a bad pump seal chewing up in 100LL from my FBO in my Cherokee 235). I check for ethanol content with a small tall olive jar with 1 inch of water, if the level of the water changes, you have ethanol. You can look up how to do this if you are not familiar with this. I pump my mo-gas into my tanks with a 7 micron filter, anything smaller will flow right through the motor and out the exhaust. (filter still seems clean after more than 800 gallons) Just be sure to buy from a busy station, his fuel will be fresher as it would not have been in his tanks long. If there had been contaminates (unlikely) they probabally already have been flushed out, like your FBO, right?.

knolde
09-30-2011, 06:52 PM
Corn crap in fuel is one of the less helpful things government has required; I now fly an LSA (CTLS) and can use up tp E10 High Test auto gas (mogas). I am using non-ethanol mogas right now, The ethanol gas is my last choice as performance is degraded a bit, climb performance and fuel burn are affected. I use 100LL on the road and it and "real" gas are pretty much co-equal in performance.


Sign me up in the "ethanol Sux" list.

BMW rider
09-30-2011, 08:19 PM
Alchohol fuel is bad fuel and bad policy. The producers get a $.45 per gallon tax credit which you have to make up. There are only a few areas not adequately covered in prior posts.
1- Do not use alchohol fuels in two strokes. We had many unexplained seizures on roadracing bikes when alchohol was first added. Water was absorbed, then phase separation occured. Oil will disolve in the gas or in the alchohol but not in the water. Instant seizure is the result. Today many marine manufacturers will not warranty alchohol related failures.
2- Even if the engine manufacturer approves E10 the airplane fuel system may not be compatible. Verify with them prior to use. In fact, one of ACS gascolators specifically is not alchohol appreved.
3- No manufacturer that I am aware of (other than autos) approves 15% alchohol.

As a final comment on how the public has been duped on this - consider the effect fuel alchohol has had on the cost of your food.
Ralph

flyunleaded
10-03-2011, 11:31 AM
> ...
3- No manufacturer that I am aware of (other than autos) approves 15% alchohol.

> ...
Ralph

Actually, there is no auto manufacturer that approves or warrants their non flex-fuel vehicles for any ethanol blend above 10% and there are certainly no fuel maps for the ECM's for E15. In fact the auto manufacturers have joined other industries in suing the EPA over the bifurcated waiver for E15, http://green.autoblog.com/2010/12/20/e15-lawsuit-support-big-automakers/