Aerobatics and parachutes

[Infidel]

I considered posting this thread in the "unusual attitudes" segment of this forum but figured it would fit here in Hangar Talk as well.

I know of a few people that perform mild aerobatics. Some with the required parachute and some without. I was speaking with one of the guys that has a chute and I asked him if he has ever skydived as a way to acclimate himself if he should ever need to exit his plane and use his chute to save his skin. He advised he had not.

I believe most pilots, if not all, will try to fly the plane all the way to the crash site. Even if a major component is missing and the plane is falling, versus flying. I just wonder how many people have elected to impact the ground with the plane due to fear of exiting the plane and no experience in deploying a parachute? Or the fear of free falling outweighed the crashing of the plane?

[JimRice85]

I made 18 jumps in the Army. Unless the plane is on fire or a wing falls off/folds, I'll keep flying it so long as there are reasonably survivable landing sites.

[Bob Dingley]

It all depends on what you're flying. I was fairly well instructed in military flight school on opening the emergency exits, jumping, landing and survival. Then I got a Luscombe and guess what. No way to jettison the doors and it was a real tight fit in that little cockpit with a chute. Might as well stow the chute in the baggage compt for all the good it will do. If my Luscombe had the fuselage tank instead of wing tanks, I sure would be reluctant to try a controlled crash.
Still, with no chute I did a fair amount of acrobatics/aerobatics with my Luscombe. Stayed away from snap maneuvers. BTW, aerobatics is a term not used by FAA. I had an acrobatic suplemant to my POH. Larson Luscombe was the first and only normal catagory plane with acrobatic approvals beyond spins and lazy eights. She was approved up through Cuban eights, rolls and snaps at the top of loops among others.
A ballistic chute is about the best answer if you don't have jetisonable doors.


Bob

[Bill Greenwood]

If the airplane is one you can get out of, and your type of flying may well have a serious loss of control or power, I think one is foolish not to wear a chute. You have to sit on something, why not sit on something that will save your life. I wouldn't do acro without a chute and I don't care if Patty Wagstaff is flying the plane. Yes, most of the time you won't need or use the chute, just like you won't need the airbags in your car of the helmet that smart people wear for motorcycle riding or ski racing.
Chutes scare some people, it brings up the idea that something might go wrong and you'd need to use it.

For doubters, they ought to Google the P-51/Skyraider midair at Duxford a few years back. Most or at least many warbird pilots wear chutes, but we really hope we don't have to use them. Here the Skyraider cut under the 51, and cut his control cables so he had no elevator and no pitch control. Despite not being young, the 51 pilot reacted fast and got out at about 600 feet agl. The chute opened and saved his life, not even injured.

I know of a number of other cases.

[Bill Greenwood]

Being an expert in using a chute would be good, but that is not necessary. All those WWII guys did NOT have practice jumps before going into combat, just the briefing.
If you can get out of the plane, and pull the ripcord, the chute is going to save your life almost every time.
During the Battle of Britain, 60% of RAF pilots hit over England were saved by parachute and that is even though many were on fire or wounded. The had the advantage usually of enough altitude and of course, were not so stubborn as to negate the value of the chute.

I have never jumped, hope I never have to, but I have done the "flying" in the vertical wind tunnel. Other pilots ought to try it.

[Eagle Six]

No doubt there are a lot of pilots with a fear of hanging below a canopy. I haven't met any that do aerobatics, but like yourself I know of many who perform aerobatics with or without a chute, yet have never used a chute. It's no big deal skydiving, and everyone should enjoy it at least once, but doing it once at least introduces you to stepping out and the initial free fall.

I've done (and will do) aerobatics, and have jumped out of airplanes. One of the first things I do in a new to me aircraft as part of the familiarization is the best procedure for egress. Whether on the ground or in the air, in an emergency, it may pay benefits to be able to get out quickly and cleanly. The only airplane I currently have to fly is an E-AB LSA design. It is tight getting in and out, and it also has a BRS. Personally I would feel better strapping and sitting on a chute than having a BRS, but I guess they have saved a lot of SR22 pilots/passengers!!

Nonetheless, I agree with you. Stepping out of a jump plane isn't going to be the same as pushing off a dead bird going down, but it would give the pilot some experience in the event they have that decision to make someday.


Best Regards.......George

[WLIU]

You all should watch the video of Sean Tucker's description of his last bail out here -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4dXC7aVzs

Very interesting and informative talk.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bill Greenwood]

Thanks for that video. I knew of the incdent but had not seen it.

Another story is a man who takes his young son up for some mild acro in there Decthalon. The boy is only about 12 years old, but they have chutes and the Dad teachs him what to do. Something breaks in the plane and there is no control. The Dad jettisons the door and tells tells the boy to jump.The Dad says the greatest moment in his life was seeing the boy's chute open below him before the Dad also gets out.

[ChiefPilot]

I wear a chute, helmet, and flight suit when doing aerobatics. It's not so much airframe structural failure I'm concerned about, but rather fire and unrecoverable spins.

Although not strictly aerobatics related, will stress the aircraft more than unaccelerated flight and one such result may be a fire. An in-flight fire may or may not be survivable; despite having a "firewall", it's certain possible that fire still manages to enter the cabin. One such incident occurred to an RV builder/pilot who elected to bail out rather than try to land. It would have ended better if he had a parachute. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001212X19358&ntsbno=SEA99FA113&akey=1

I do spins frequently and am not intimidated by them (my max thus far is a 9 turn flat spin with an additional 2 turns for recovery). However, it seems spinning into the ground isn't unheard of and the advice I was given prior to undertaking spin testing my RV in phase 1 was to have an escape plane i.e. a chute.
I'll admit that neither of these situations is particularly likely - if they were, I wouldn't get into the airplane in the first place. :D

[Joe LaMantia]

I'm not a aerobatic pilot, but I do have a lot of experience with parachutes. I spent 5 of my 6 years in the AF Reserve as a loadmaster. I've packed hundreds of parachutes and flown many air drop missions day and night dropping equipment and troops. The parachute is a fairly simple invention and very reliable. I have never jumped out of an airplane but if you wear one, even without any actual training, you will feel very secure with opening doors in flight and such. I've flown lots of "students" at the jump school in Fort Benning, GA and watched the smiles appears as they bounce back from the initial shock of the chute opening! If your wearing a parachute be sure and pay attention to the ground/water that your flying over, landing on a roof or in the middle of an Interstate could get you just as dead as flying into the ground nose first.

Joe
:eek:

[JimRice85]

I'm not a aerobatic pilot, but I do have a lot of experience with parachutes. I spent 5 of my 6 years in the AF Reserve as a loadmaster. I've packed hundreds of parachutes and flown many air drop missions day and night dropping equipment and troops. The parachute is a fairly simple invention and very reliable. I have never jumped out of an airplane but if you wear one, even without any actual training, you will feel very secure with opening doors in flight and such. I've flown lots of "students" at the jump school in Fort Benning, GA and watched the smiles appears as they bounce back from the initial shock of the chute opening! If your wearing a parachute be sure and pay attention to the ground/water that your flying over, landing on a roof or in the middle of an Interstate could get you just as dead as flying into the ground nose first.

Joe
:eek:

Army riggers always packed our parachutes. :)

[Hiperbiper]

I considered posting this thread in the "unusual attitudes" segment of this forum but figured it would fit here in Hangar Talk as well.

I know of a few people that perform mild aerobatics. Some with the required parachute and some without. I was speaking with one of the guys that has a chute and I asked him if he has ever skydived as a way to acclimate himself if he should ever need to exit his plane and use his chute to save his skin. He advised he had not.

I believe most pilots, if not all, will try to fly the plane all the way to the crash site. Even if a major component is missing and the plane is falling, versus flying. I just wonder how many people have elected to impact the ground with the plane due to fear of exiting the plane and no experience in deploying a parachute? Or the fear of free falling outweighed the crashing of the plane?

I regularly fly aerobatics in a plane that has jettisonable doors for quick egress and wear a parachute most days.
That being said; an Emergency parachute rig is going to be a 24-28' conical chute that is minimumly steerable, it's designed as a better way to impact the planet than the broken airplane you just left, nothing more, nothing less!
A skydiving rig (ram air type) is comtrollable and you "can" land like a feather after you learn how to fly/use one.
The emergency chute is much simpler: jump,pull,hang and wait. While you DO need to know how to land (feet, butt, back roll) it's not something you'll want to go out and practice with a conical chute!

Self preservation is a strong emotion; I love my plane but if she ever lights up, breaks up or screws up it's pull the mixture, pull the door, pop the belts and Geronimo!!! I actually go over the steps in my cockpit preflight after the props turning.

Chris

[ChiefPilot]

Self preservation is a strong emotion; I love my plane but if she ever lights up, breaks up or screws up it's pull the mixture, pull the door, pop the belts and Geronimo!!! I actually go over the steps in my cockpit preflight after the props turning.


That's an excellent point - you need a plan. Mine is committed to memory and reviewed prior to take off:

CCCBG:

Cut the engine
Cords disconnected (helmet/headset/etc)
Canopy jettison
Belts release
Get out!

[Joe LaMantia]

Jim,

Yes, personnel chutes are packed by riggers in the Army and the Personal Equipment (PE) shop in the Air Force. Cargo chutes are packed by Loadmasters in Aerial Port units or in some cases flying Squadrons. I packed mostly A-22's which can handle a one ton load, also lighter A-21's and the monster G-11A with a 100 foot canopy used to drop vehicles. In training drops these chutes would get wet sometimes and we would have to lay them out in a dry area until they were completely dried out b/4 repacking them. All these chutes use static lines as due most paratroops with the exception of Special Forces. The Air Forces' PE shops have a tower type structure that is used to hang chutes up and blow air up the tower to insure they're dry b/4 repack which if my memory serves me is every 60 days...maybe 90.

Joe
:cool:

[Saville]

I considered posting this thread in the "unusual attitudes" segment of this forum but figured it would fit here in Hangar Talk as well. I know of a few people that perform mild aerobatics. Some with the required parachute and some without. I was speaking with one of the guys that has a chute and I asked him if he has ever skydived as a way to acclimate himself if he should ever need to exit his plane and use his chute to save his skin. He advised he had not. I believe most pilots, if not all, will try to fly the plane all the way to the crash site. Even if a major component is missing and the plane is falling, versus flying. I just wonder how many people have elected to impact the ground with the plane due to fear of exiting the plane and no experience in deploying a parachute? Or the fear of free falling outweighed the crashing of the plane? When I was a kid I knew I'd be flying and I also knew I'd be flying acro. So like lot of us I'd read aviation magazines and I began to notice that a lot of pilots who wrote articles about mishaps they had, and who had to leave the airplane *all* said that they hesitated before jumping because it was a scary proposition. When I was in college, I had the opportunity to do a little skydiving at a local skydiving school. I decided I would do enough jumping such that there would be no hesitation due to this being my first jump, if I had to leave the plane. So my skydiving logbook has 29 jumps. Enough to get me into 15 second free falls, My first jump...I was petrified until it was my turn to jump and then I was too busy following the commands to be afraid. By my 8th or 9th jump I was able to sit in the open door with my feet dangling out in the airstream, in total comfort. After all - if we hit a rough patch and I was thrown out of the airplane...I'd just hit a hard arch and pull the ripcord. So nowadays I am perfectly comfortable and psychologically ready to leave the plane if that's the move to make. I recommend a few jumps to anyone who want's to be just that much more prepared.