Single seat Club.

[1600vw]

Could a club be formed around a group of single seat EAB airplanes?

Lets say someone owns a few single seat airplanes and would like to start a club with the members sharing and flying these airplanes. Has this ever been done before or could it be done?

Tony

[Bob Dingley]

Many soaring clubs have a Schweizer 1-26 or two. Long ago, some 1-26s could be built as a kit.

[Joe LaMantia]

I'm not aware of any single-seat clubs, there sure aren't any laws to prevent someone from starting one. The only hang-up might be insurance companies, since getting checked-out in one is a bit "different". Maybe someone from EAA HQ or AOPA could chime in on this one. If your members all have logged PIC time in these aircraft even the insurance companies would be happy, all they want is their premiums with as little risk as possible.

Joe
Skypark Aero Club

:cool:

[rwanttaja]

The "Second Story Flying Club" was formed around a single-seat homebuilt in ~1954, and operated for more than 45 years. They flew the second Story Special, hence the name. The plane was the direct ancestor of the Fly Baby, as I write here:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/stories/story.HTM

The club had four members at a time...by the end, there'd been about 20 total members.

I joined the EAA Chapter 26 Fly Baby club in ~'86. In contrast to the Story Club (where members were part-owners of the airplane) the Fly Baby was still owned by Pete Bowers. So yes, single-seat flying clubs are perfectly possible. In some ways, they work better than multi-seat airplanes, in that the owners typically just take the plane out for a couple of hours.

I think they're even more common with, like single-seat Pittses. Most folks can't afford to own their own aerobatic aircraft, and a partnership/club is a good way to go.

The downside, of course, is there's no way to judge the ability of prospective new members to fly the aircraft...they pay, THEN you find out if they can fly it. I remember standing by the runway, cringing as the new member slammed the plane again and again into the unyielding asphalt.

Ron Wanttaja

[1600vw]

Great info guys. I never knew about the Second Story and what a great read. The gears are turning in my head reading this.

Sounds like I need to contact some people in this article.

Tony

[rwanttaja]

Great info guys. I never knew about the Second Story and what a great read. The gears are turning in my head reading this.

Sounds like I need to contact some people in this article.

Well... the plane was finally sold to a single owner about seven years ago. Cecil, the main guy, is now in assisted living. Not a lot of the members left...but one or two are in Chapter 26. What kind of data were you looking for?

The Story Club worked the same as the Fly Baby club, only the members of the Fly Baby club weren't partners in the airplane. We determined what the monthly costs were (hangar, insurance, maintenance, etc.) and charged the members that amount plus a bit more for a maintenance reserve. If you broke the plane, you were expected to fix it, either with your labor or with your wallet. One of the long-time members of the Story Club was an A&P and did the condition inspections, and Cecil was a master homebuilder who could do anything else.

Same guy did the annuals for the Fly Baby club (for free). For much of the time, I was the only member, so I just paid the bills rather than manage a bank account.

Ron Wanttaja

[1600vw]

Ron: I have a ton of questions. I almost did not post this. But this just kept running in my mind.

How did you find the group you did? Did you ever let new members join? If you did let new members join what did you go through with these new members? How did you approach the insurance? Did you ever have anyone damage and airplane? How many airplanes did you have in this group.

I am sure I will think of more. Those are the ones right off the top of my head. If you have anything you would like to add please do. It just so happens I own a couple single seat small homebuilts and nothing in this world would make me happier then to have a group who could enjoy these airplanes, share stories and everything that comes with it.

Maybe I am looking through rose colored glasses but I do this sometimes.

Tony

[zaitcev]

The downside, of course, is there's no way to judge the ability of prospective new members to fly the aircraft... they pay, THEN you find out if they can fly it. I remember standing by the runway, cringing as the new member slammed the plane again and again into the unyielding asphalt.

Sounds like my story. Fortunately, I only did $800 in damage. I have about 10 hours in type now and it feels like I flew it forever. Unfortunately, the problem is in the first hour.

Perhaps it may be possible to find a "similar" 2-seater and establish mandatory training rules in the club. They don't have to belong to the same family as Pitts 1-seat and 2-seat. U-Fly-It trains pilots of Aerolite 103 in a Quicksilver 2S, for which they have a LoDA (it started before Quck 2S S-LSA).

[1600vw]

Sounds like my story. Fortunately, I only did $800 in damage. I have about 10 hours in type now and it feels like I flew it forever. Unfortunately, the problem is in the first hour.

When this happened how many hrs flying did you have and in what type. Was this your airplane or a clubs airplane. Did you fix it and how long was it down.

If members are paying dues to fly these airplanes what about when they are down for repairs from such events.

What kind of contract should be drawn up? What about in case of a fatal accident?

Only except pilots or those flying in type?

Joining fee's how does one come up with this amount?

I hope these are not stupid questions.

Tony

[rwanttaja]

Ron: I have a ton of questions. I almost did not post this. But this just kept running in my mind.

How did you find the group you did? Did you ever let new members join? If you did let new members join what did you go through with these new members? How did you approach the insurance? Did you ever have anyone damage and airplane? How many airplanes did you have in this group.

I am sure I will think of more. Those are the ones right off the top of my head. If you have anything you would like to add please do. It just so happens I own a couple single seat small homebuilts and nothing in this world would make me happier then to have a group who could enjoy these airplanes, share stories and everything that comes with it.


For the Fly Baby club, Pete had loaned the airplane to Chapter 26, for only for the people who had rebuilt the plane in 1981 (for its 20th anniversary). Eventually, there weren't enough them interested to keep it viable, so they opened up the club to all members I was a chapter member at the time and signed up. Since the "head honco" of the Fly Baby rebuilder was Cecil Hendricks (the same guy who set up the Story club) the Fly Baby club was operated the same way.

Insurance wasn't really a problem, even with multiple members. We weren't carrying hull coverage, and they didn't seem to be as concerned when just writing a liability package. IIRC, I paid the same for insurance for my own Fly Baby as the club cost. About $200/year. I'm paying about $280/year now, twenty years later. REAL nice benefit of EAA, my boys....

We had an open hangar that cost (in 1990) about $100/month. State re-registration every year for $10 ($25 now). Club dues were something like $30/month. We didn't have a formal maintenance reserve. For the Story, they'd just dig into their pockets collectively when major expenses came up. Like when one wing burned to a crisp (rebuilding was a bear...they didn't have any plans for the Story). Everybody was expected to re-fill the plane after they got done flying for the day.

Story memberships were sold by word-of-mouth. You'd find a prospective purchaser, the other members would talk to him, he'd get a taildragger checkout, and he'd join the club. IIRC, Story memberships (1/4 interest) generally sold for $1500, in the '90s.

Both clubs just had the one airplane (Story, Fly Baby). Both clubs usually had at least one member who didn't fly very often. Several of the rebuilders of Fly Baby N500F were technically members, but they didn't fly the plane for the entire time I ran the club. I was the most-active pilot of N500F, but we added a member after about five years who flew about half as much as I. Wasn't a problem. If you were going to take the plane for the whole day, you'd call the other members to make sure no one had a problem with it. After all, it's a single-seater...not like someone's going to show up to take their wife for a ride.

I wrote a Kitplanes article about the Story ages ago, with more detail on the club and history. Have to see if I can chase it down.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

I'll let Zaitcev give his own information, but here's how the clubs here worked:


If members are paying dues to fly these airplanes what about when they are down for repairs from such events.

The dues were for the routine expenses of the airplane, just like owning. If the plane didn't fly, the hangar rent, etc. still had to be paid. The Story's situation is probably the better one (and the most typical): The club members owned the aircraft. If one's airplane is broken, the local airport does NOT let you stop paying hangar rent. Thus, all members were incentivized to help get the plane flying again if it broke down.


What kind of contract should be drawn up? What about in case of a fatal accident?

The contract was real similar to the aircraft partnership agreements that make the rounds. Let me see if I still have my old one.

Never had anyone killed in either airplane, though one pilot managed to flip upside down in deep snow at an unattended airport.

If a death *did* happen, it would be a mess. Partnership (e.g., the dead pilot being part owner and thus partly responsible for its condition) would probably be the way to go. In any case, there were no "deep pockets" in sight.


Only except pilots or those flying in type?

It's a long wait, looking for prospective club members who just happened to have flown one of the two Story Specials in existence. :-)

You need assurance that the guy is current in taildraggers, preferable something roughly equivalent to the club airplane (e.g., Champ or Cub time was considered good for the Story and Fly Baby). In my case, I had earned my Private flying a Citabria. Hadn't flown either for a while, but a local CFI signed me off after an hour-long checkout in a local Champ. One of the fond memories I clutch to my heart is him exclaiming, as he paged through my logbook to make the signoff for my checkoff, "You mean you hadn't flown taildraggers for EIGHT YEARS?????!" Seems that the hand had not lost its cunning, even after all that time.

Interviewed one guy for the Fly Baby club, once. He was all eager to get a taildragger checkout and join the club. So he could teach himself aerobatics, in the Fly Baby. I managed to dissuade him from joining...


Joining fee's how does one come up with this amount?

For the Story, it was (relatively) easy: The estimated value of the airplane, divided by four. $150 in 1954, $1500 in 1995.

For the Fly Baby, the joining fee was $500 (in 1985). Don't recall why that amount was picked, other than the hope to put some sort of a maintenance kitty together. Paying the fee did *not* buy a portion of the ownership of the Fly Baby. Pete Bowers retained it.


I hope these are not stupid questions.
Absolutely not, glad to help.

The biggest issue, I think, is most folks get tired of flying a small single-seater and get the urge to move up. Single-seat airplanes are difficult to sell, and part-ownership in them isn't any different. The other problem is folks who dodge the ownership responsibilities, such as washing the plane and helping with the annual inspection.

Ron Wanttaja

[1600vw]

Ron I thank you so very much for this info. I would like to retain the ownership of these airplanes and maybe buy more. But I would like to share them with a club like you describe. I dream of having 4 or 5 flying single seat airplanes and maybe a two seat tail dragger to do a check ride in with new members.

The expenses at where I am at are not nearly what you had to pay, hangar rent 45 bucks per airplane. But the big hurdle will be if the airpark owner, will he let a club form here. We talked about a regular club centered around a 172 and he was not open to that. He may not be open to this type of club either. Nothing to loose in trying.

I like this idea and this type of club. Now if everything lines up maybe this can happen. I already have a couple people interested in this style of club in my area.

Thanks again Ron. I am sure I will have more questions.

Tony