Flying high

[Bill Greenwood]

The story on the news a few weeks back was of TSA or some other cops searching the private jet used by singer Justin Beiber and finding no drugs.
Now the story is that Justin and his Dad were smoking so much dope on another flight, that the pilots and the stewardess complained about the smell.
When they landed the cops again searched the plane and again no illegal drugs were found.
It seems like this is a waste of law enforcement effort to focus on one celebrity who is not an airline or carrying other passengers, especially since they are not finding any drugs. The real danger is if a frustrated TSA or DEA agent plants the drugs on the plane, as they certainly have in the past in similar cases in cars. I'll bet many if not most, charter jets carry lot's of liquor, but I doubt if any of them are searched by cops even if the passengers get drunk.

No pilot in their right mind would want to fly stoned, but then again a few of them fly when using alcohol. You never know when something would call for all your best pilot ability. I don't use drugs, except Advil, and there isn't any really good long term Unbiased medical research on marijuana use, so I don't know how much it affects you. I know a professional lady who has a chronic medical problem, high blood pressure, who's husband is a pilot and she uses medical marijuana, but she has to commute to work and she never smokes in the morning before work. I asked someone else I know who has been a long time smoker if they would hestitate to drive on it and they said no. I know I used to ski race and a number of the guys would smoke on the lift before the race, then go down the course at speeds up to 80 mph, and it didn't seem to affect their performance, just as a number of pro athletes use it. There aren't any great ski racers from Texas, and so for me, I had all I could do to stand up at 70 mph and stay out of the fence.

Medical pot has been legal in Co, for a few years and now all of it is legal, and as for as I can tell there in no difference. There are still alcohol drunk drivers going the wrong way on the freeway or running over pedestrians, or getting in gun fights outside bars at closing time. I don't see any such incidents increasing by people just using mj.

[Infidel]

Having retired from Law Enforcement, I can tell you from experience. Not once did I ever run into someone that had been smoking marijuana and then felt ten feet tall and ready to fight everyone in the bar, etc.. The complete opposite of alcohol and on any given day, I'd rather have to deal with a "Pot Head" than a drunk.

I recall reading an article a few issues back of Sport Aviation concerning a guy that fatally crashed an Extra 300. If I remember correctly, the guy took off in imc conditions, etc.. The crash investigators found a bag of marijuana in the pilots personal effects and blood samples revealed THC/marijuana in his system.

Anyhow, anyone that would operate any conveyance while under the influence of any foreign substance is an idiot.

[CarlOrton]

I saw a story on Drudge that the pilot/FO had the masks on during the flight. Seems smart if the allegations are true.

It appeared in Time: (post edited to add link)
http://entertainment.time.com/2014/02/05/justin-bieber-plane-marijuana-arrests/

[Bill Greenwood]

The O2 mask story might be true, but I wonder. When I have seen people smoking pot, there is a prominent and distinctive smell, not unpleasant really , not acrid like tobacco. But usually not a lot of smoke. It is not like someone guzzling a Big Gulp, more like sipping brandy.
The pilots probably could have opened an air vent or maybe closed a curtain behind the cockpit. I don't know Drudge, don't know if it is a reliable source or has an axe to grind.

I think alcohol changes people so much, many times not for the better. Perhaps before you marry someone or loan them money or hire them or go into a partnership, you ought to see them drunk once to see if there are any demons in there. As for me, I get pretty silly and make alot of jokes and think they are all funny.

[Infidel]

Right on Bill. I don't doubt the pilots would've used the oxygen masks. I know I would have. I don't think the "second hand" smoke would give the pilots any impairment but, it is possible to breath the second hand smoke and then test positive for marijuana in their system/body.

Anyhow, if I was the Captain of that ship, I would've hit the nearest button on my GPS, diverted and dropped that Beaver kid & his father at the first available airstrip I could find!

[Floatsflyer]

When I fly it's a natural high!

OK Bill, you've started topics in quick succession on tobacco smoking, now grass. What's next? In keeping with your drug of the week theme, may I suggest the following "far out" drugs for discussion: Quaaludes, MDA, Mescaline, Purple Blotter Acid, standard LSD. Oh my, I'm having a pharmaceutical flashback!

[tspear]

The pilots wearing the O2 masks has shown up on CNN, Time, Fox....
Basically all the major news sources.

Tim

[RV8505]

When I fly it's a natural high! OK Bill, you've started topics in quick succession on tobacco smoking, now grass. What's next? In keeping with your drug of the week theme, may I suggest the following "far out" drugs for discussion: Quaaludes, MDA, Mescaline, Purple Blotter Acid, standard LSD. Oh my, I'm having a pharmaceutical flashback!It's simple! Just another topic picked from the cornucopia of usless and irrelevant information.

[Bill Greenwood]

tspear, the story of the pilots putting on O2 masks is on several sources, but it may or may not be true. In a airliner, the pilots air is from a separate source than the passengers in the cabin, thus they are not breathing what the passengers are. A corporate jet may be different, the cockpit and cabin may be together. I don't know for sure. I wonder if there are any smoke detectors/fire alarms like in a airliner restroom. If so did they go off? At any rate the mask story would likely have come from the pilots and in any case no drugs were found when customs inspected the plane after the flight, so we have a good story, but no evidence other than that.

[martymayes]

In a airliner, the pilots air is from a separate source than the passengers in the cabin, thus they are not breathing what the passengers are.
what airliner would that be? I don't know of any with an airtight bulkhead between cabin and flight deck.


On March 30, 1983 a Lear 25 crashed at Newark (EWR) after an erratic approach. Toxicology report showed both pilots had used marijuana.
Here is a paper on the effects of marijuana and flying and why pilots shouldn't use drugs. I believe it mentions the Lear accident:
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1108.pdf

[Mike Berg]

Being a old guy I don't know much about the spoiled and nutty Beiber kid or his apparently also nutty dad but I do know that MJ is an illegal drug....period (borrowed the term 'period' from Obama) whether the state of Colorado or any other state says it isn't. My understanding is that on the national level it is still illegal. Where does one draw the line? How about meth or heroin? In addition to my pilot's license I also hold a commercial drivers license and most recently a school bus driver's license, although I'm now retired. Both required a random drug and alcohol test which I had no problem submitting to. To me, illegal is illegal...period. I think the jury is still out on whether it's 'safe' and, by the way, notice I said "random drug and alcohol testing". Failure of either was condition for dismissal for a good reason.

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty, I read an article some years ago, maybe in Consumer Reports, about how bad the air was in the passenger compartments of airliners. While the pilots are supplied with fresh air from outside, passenger air is largely recycled and it saves money for the airline that way. Any commercial jetliner in the U S has a cockpit shut off from the cabin by walls and a reinforced and closed door ,if not an airtight bulkhead, and they have the outside and independent air/o2 supply, ,without needing masks.

The Lear accident is not much proof. Here you have a badly flown approach and a crash and then pilots who may have used pot at some time in the past. Are there any badly flown approaches and crashes where no pot is in their history? How about the badly flown and fatal bounced landing in Aspen a few weeks back? Was it pot or the 29 Knot tailwind? Had any pilot in any other accident used anything like alcohol or other drugs in the recent past?

I read your Australian research, don't know much about it except some of it is opinion, and some of the studies are on only a handful of people, 6 or so.

For much of the last century the U S govt has classified M J as a class one drug,(addcitive with no medical use,they claim) and thus illegal so that real unbiased research was also prohibited. Therefore no significant research has been been done here. We can guesstimate that pot may impair driving or flying but no one really knows for sure how much. How can any University or hospital perform a legitamate unbiased scientific study when the govt has already decided the result back in 1920? It is pretty obvious that the U S govt position is at least part a lie as we know now that M J does have some real beneficial medical uses and in some cases a critical needs like treating kids seizures, when other drugs don't work. We certainly don't see any significant number of auto accidents where the drivers are using only pot, unlike the hundreds of thousands of drunk driving wrecks. And I can tell that I can show you expert skiing and ski racing by people who were using it. And I assume that many pro athletes can perform at a high level while using it.

[tspear]

tspear, the story of the pilots putting on O2 masks is on several sources, but it may or may not be true. In a airliner, the pilots air is from a separate source than the passengers in the cabin, thus they are not breathing what the passengers are. A corporate jet may be different, the cockpit and cabin may be together. I don't know for sure. I wonder if there are any smoke detectors/fire alarms like in a airliner restroom. If so did they go off? At any rate the mask story would likely have come from the pilots and in any case no drugs were found when customs inspected the plane after the flight, so we have a good story, but no evidence other than that.

Bill,

I have been a passenger on a few small/midsize business class jets. None of them had separate air systems or even air tight separation between compartments. I know the King Airs worked on by the local shop do not have any separation.

Beyond that, the dogs "alerted" to the presence of drug smells, and there have been multiple reports by CBP and others that there was a residue smell of drugs. From everything I have read over the years, the smell of drugs is not a prosecutable offense, even the presence of THC does not count. The police/CBP must find actual drugs.

Tim

[RV8505]

Marty, I read an article some years ago, maybe in Consumer Reports, about how bad the air was in the passenger compartments of airliners. While the pilots are supplied with fresh air from outside, passenger air is largely recycled and it saves money for the airline that way. Any commercial jetliner in the U S has a cockpit shut off from the cabin by walls and a reinforced and closed door ,if not an airtight bulkhead, and they have the outside and independent air/o2 supply, ,without needing masks.It is total B.S. as the air comes from the 8th and 13th stages from the engines and thru the air cycle machines ( Packs). I put in the cockpit doors on after 911 and they are not air tight. The emergency O2 systems are seprate. The pilots off a O2 bottle and the passengers off a oxygen generators. I seriously don't belive the pilots smelled anything as air enters the cabin and exits thru the rear of the cabin tube thru the outflow valve. Just another case like the rest of the news in this country of reporter fabrication.

[champ driver]

On all of the corporate planes I've flown for work there is only one pressure vessel, cockpit and cabin breath the same air. Now it depends on where the outflow valves are on the plane on whether you're going to smell anything from the cabin or not. Some valves are on the back bulkhead, but on the current plane I now fly, they're both on the belly near the door, probable 4' behind our heads. I can guarantee that we sometimes smell passengers making drinks and eating their lunches, and I know that MJ is much more pungent than either of those.
I'm not sure where the outflow valves are on a G-IV, but I can easily believe the crew could smell MJ, and I don't believe it was "reporter fabrication".
I can tell you if I were on that flight and smelled MJ I would have the masks on, there is no way I'm going to jeopardize my career and livelihood by having it possibly show up on a random drug test later.

[Bill Greenwood]

Hey, maybe charter pilots nowadays owe a "thank you" to Bieber. It's kind of like "the dog ate my homework". Now if a pilot should test positive for a banned substance, they can always claim, "It wasn't me, it was the rock star or movie star or sports star that was in the cabin".

It would be hard to imagine any pilot flying while impaired, but I know of at least two airline pilots who did it while drinking and got by with it for years.

I know myself, that I would never fly after even one beer, but millions of people have a drink at lunch or dinner and then drive ok. I have driven after one beer or part of one, but I don't like to do it if I have a long or difficult drive. In driving you can to some extant control your speed and exposure, but in flying you never know when you might need all your best ability and that is not the time to have any impairment.

[Bill Greenwood]

Mike Berg, as for as being "illegal ", not anymore, medical marijuana is legal in almost half the states now as well as DC, and this is likely to spread because there seem to be some important and critical uses for it , other than just general relaxation. The fed Atty Gen has stated that no one will be prosecuted for this. There is an article on the internet yesterday about it's use spreading to the conservative largely Republican south, as some parents, even a police officer finding that it is the only thing to help with child seizures.

[Mike Berg]

Bill, it's not 'illegal" because the AJ has put out a mandate (for lack of a better term) not to prosecute but it's still listed as a class one as far as I know so that still makes it illegal. Medical wise? I've seen pictures on TV of some of the 'medical needing folks' and they mostly look what my son called 'stoners' when he was in school...."Oh! Yeah! Man! I have a bad back so I really need this and I can't work!" All one needs to do it find a permissive doctor. Kind of like the 'undocumented' that are here illegally by crossing our borders. Sorry they're not undocumented....they're illegal...period! I'm also assuming there is a reason for random drug checks for a commercial license.

[martymayes]

Marty, I read an article some years ago, maybe in Consumer Reports, about how bad the air was in the passenger compartments of airliners. While the pilots are supplied with fresh air from outside, passenger air is largely recycled and it saves money for the airline that way. Any commercial jetliner in the U S has a cockpit shut off from the cabin by walls and a reinforced and closed door ,if not an airtight bulkhead, and they have the outside and independent air/o2 supply, ,without needing masks.

Well Bill, I only have about 11k hrs in transport jets but I can say with reasonable accuracy that your systems knowledge is deficient.

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, MJ does not enhance one's performance and abilities. And anyone who thinks they can claim secondhand exposure better study up on legal TLV's.

Even the liberal state of WA has put a TLV on the quantity of MJ that can be in one's system in order to legally operate a motor vehicle on the road, so in the future, you will likely see some motorist fined for "driving under the influence"

[Bill Greenwood]

Marty the article I read about the air quality in airliners seemed to be correct, and I also asked some airline pilots about it and they agreed at that time.

I personally don't know anything about "transport category" airplanes other as a passenger.

What is a "TLV" for those who are not up on the latest slang or legalese?

[Matt Gonitzke]

Marty the article I read about the air quality in airliners seemed to be correct, and I also asked some airline pilots about it and they agreed at that time.

Marty is correct. There is no pressure barrier between the cockpit and cabin of a pressurized airliner. For that matter, there is also no pressure barrier between the cargo hold and passenger cabin, another common misnomer. Bleed air is used to maintain the pressure differential, and air is not recirculated, it goes out the outflow valve, which maintains the pressure differential or cabin altitude, depending on how the pressurization system is set up.

[Frank Giger]

1. Bill, you have made my top 50 people I want to sit and drink coffee with and chew the fat over stuff. We may not agree on a lot of things, but you're articulate and passionate and have a fine sense of controversy.

2. I'd actually be more scared of authorities finding pot on my aircraft than I would be of second hand smoke - the "contact high" is largely a myth. Law enforcement confiscating expensive things with drugs found in them isn't, though. The "it isn't mine" defense isn't one.

3. I guess I'm just a big chicken - I even limit the amount of coffee I drink before I get behind the stick. I have a 24 hour rule for alcohol use.

[1600vw]

1. Bill, you have made my top 50 people I want to sit and drink coffee with and chew the fat over stuff. We may not agree on a lot of things, but you're articulate and passionate and have a fine sense of controversy.

2. I'd actually be more scared of authorities finding pot on my aircraft than I would be of second hand smoke - the "contact high" is largely a myth. Law enforcement confiscating expensive things with drugs found in them isn't, though. The "it isn't mine" defense isn't one.

3. I guess I'm just a big chicken - I even limit the amount of coffee I drink before I get behind the stick. I have a 24 hour rule for alcohol use.

Frank I agree with all the above...

I fly just for the fun of it and maybe for an hr. You have no idea how many times I had to land to go to the bathroom in that Hr. I drink a LOT of water. Its coffee, Water with a glass of milk with meals. That is all I drink, gave up beer..It was making me fat...and I was drinking to much of it.

Tony

[Frank Giger]

I work third shift - 2300-0700 - so I'm stymied on when I can drink other than my days off. An after work beer would be around 0800, and so I'd be drinking alone. Start drinking alone at 0800 and the next thing one knows they're going to meetings where they tell a body they're not supposed to drink at all, ever.

:)

Actually, I'm thinking Bill would probably be the guy to give one the shirt off his back if they needed it. The Interwebs really aren't the best way of really coming across as a person most of the time.

[Bill Greenwood]

Thanks Frank, you are very kind. Maybe we will meet at Airventure this year.

[Floatsflyer]

I fly just for the fun of it and maybe for an hr. You have no idea how many times I had to land to go to the bathroom in that Hr. I drink a LOT of water.

Tony

The older I get, the less my bladder can withstand the rigours of 2-4 hour flights. So in order to avoid anxiety, stress and taking my feet of the rudder pedals to cross them and clinch, I carry empty plastic water bottles in the plane at all times keeping 1-2 close by. Obviously this is the antidote for the guys; for you ladies I don't have an easy fail safe solution.

[Flyfalcons]

It is total B.S. as the air comes from the 8th and 13th stages from the engines and thru the air cycle machines ( Packs). I put in the cockpit doors on after 911 and they are not air tight. The emergency O2 systems are seprate. The pilots off a O2 bottle and the passengers off a oxygen generators. I seriously don't belive the pilots smelled anything as air enters the cabin and exits thru the rear of the cabin tube thru the outflow valve. Just another case like the rest of the news in this country of reporter fabrication.

The outflow valve on the GIV is up front near the pilot's feet. So any smell in the cabin will work its way toward the pilots.

[Jim Hann]

The Learjet has its outflow valve up front as well. The joke was you'd never smell the FO's gas! :-). The Airbus 300 I'm flying now has one outflow valve at each end but also avionics cooling valves that can affect the direction of airflow. The 747-400F has both outflow valves in the rear and also has a ducting system to try and keep the upper deck at .1 psi positive to the cabin to minimize smoke and fume ingress. The Jetstream 41 had dual outflow valves in the aft pressure bulkhead. Really drove the passengers nuts when the FO and I would pick up BBQ on a MEM turn, the wonderful aroma would travel the length of the cabin!!! 8-)