Licenses vs. Certificates, Aviators vs. Pilots, This vs. That

[Mike M]

PPL = Private Pilot License, American's use a lot of abbrevations.

Joe
:cool:

The FAA does not issue pilot licenses. A person can't even apply for a USA pilot license. See "FAA Form 8710-1, Airman Certification And/or Rating Application." The FAA issues pilot certificates because USA pilots are certificated, not licensed. Interesting stories behind WHY, some of them might even be partly true. But fact remains. No such thing as a USA, FAA-issued, private pilot license. Today's worthless trivia lesson thus endeth. You're welcome.

[martymayes]

The FAA does not issue pilot licenses. A person can't even apply for a USA pilot license. See "FAA Form 8710-1, Airman Certification And/or Rating Application." The FAA issues pilot certificates because USA pilots are certificated, not licensed. Interesting stories behind WHY, some of them might even be partly true. But fact remains. No such thing as a USA, FAA-issued, private pilot license. Today's worthless trivia lesson thus endeth. You're welcome.

What if the acronym PPL = Private Pilot Land ???

carry on......

[Infidel]

I'd go with-Private Pilots Legit .

[Bill Greenwood]

All these years I have thought I had a Pilot's License, now we are informed that is really is a Pilot certificate. Man, I am sure glad that we got that major point corrected. But I will probably lay awake all night tonight with worry about the difference.

And I think I may have filled out some forms 8710 for acrobatic renewals, but now I am worried about whether it is called acrobatic or aerobatic. Next time I'm inverted I will probably freeze with indecision about whether I have a rating or a certificate or a license or any of them. In my simple minded ignorance all these years I thought all I needed to get upright again was to keep the aileron in or some back pressure.

And to think all these years I have flown happily in ignorance.

We have a ton of snow now, probably the most I can remember, it is waist deep on my deck. I was thinking about going skiing, if I could even get out and to the mountain, but now I am hesitant to go until I decide if the operator is Aspen Ski Co, or Aspen Skiing Co.

Somewhere I have 2 kinds of Broker licenses. I'd better spend the day wondering if I was a stock broker or an investment broker or a securities broker?

The vital and critical information that one can gain on these forums is rare indeed
And did you know that after all the hoopla about Pres. Obama not really having a Hawaii "Birth Certificate" is probably true, though not in the same way as the nut case right wingers claim. If his Hawaii one is like my Texas one it actually says "Certificate of Live Birth".

[Bob Dingley]

I'm with you Bill. I don't know (or care) whether I have a license, certificate or "ticket". A clue to ACROBATIC vs AEROBATIC is in the title to FAR 23. FAA uses acrobatic. Now all I have to sort out is do I break ground and fly into the wind or do it some other way.

[Mike M]

All these years I have thought I had a Pilot's License...all these years I have flown happily in ignorance.

I didn't mean to call anyone ignorant. That green plastic card we carry while flying which says "certificate" on the front has a "signature" block on the back. We all read important legal documents before we sign. Y'all DID sign it, right?

American aviation pioneers refused to accept state licensing because it was too restrictive. They insisted on recognition of international rights as accorded to mariners. So we have certificates to exercise rights, not licenses for limited privileges, and the PIC is called "Captain." The passengers have "tickets".

http://www.aviationtoday.com/am/categories/commercial/License-or-Certificate_31478.html#.UuvjUvs4OX5

Today's worthless trivia lesson thus endeth. You're welcome. :D

[GothiUllr]

I didn't mean to call anyone ignorant. That green plastic card we carry while flying which says "certificate" on the front has a "signature" block on the back. We all read important legal documents before we sign. Y'all DID sign it, right?

American aviation pioneers refused to accept state licensing because it was too restrictive. They insisted on recognition of international rights as accorded to mariners. So we have certificates to exercise rights, not licenses for limited privileges, and the PIC is called "Captain." The passengers have "tickets".

http://www.aviationtoday.com/am/categories/commercial/License-or-Certificate_31478.html#.UuvjUvs4OX5

Today's worthless trivia lesson thus endeth. You're welcome. :D
I knew there was a difference, but I couldn't have told you the difference. Thanks Cdr, I enjoyed reading that.

[Joe LaMantia]

Cdr. You are Correct! It is a certificate, not a license I just pulled mine out of my wallet and even though its now a plastic one, I can still read it. The "new" plastic version is not wearing well, the big bold printing along the top is mostly rubbed-off, but the certificate number is clear along with "Private Pilot" and "Airplane Single Engine Land". I don't have a bunch of "ratings" so is it correct to use abbr. like CFI, CFII, or MEI in conversation?

Joe
:eek:

[lnuss]

so is it correct to use abbr. like CFI, CFII, or MEI in conversation?

Yes, although CFII is frequently pronounced, "Double eye."

[Infidel]

When someone with a non-flying background asks me if I have a Pilots License, which they always do, I find it a lot easier to simply say yes. Not once have I been asked if I possess a Certificate. Anyhow, I know the difference. But to a lot of people that difference doesn't matter.

[Mike M]

But to a lot of people that difference doesn't matter.

So true. To many, the difference between a basic human right and a government-granted license doesn't matter. Think, Second Amendment argument. Or abortion-on-demand. Or homosexual marriage. Wait a minute. Maybe people do care about the difference, once they know there IS a difference.

[Mayhemxpc]

PPL is an ICAO/JAA term. When I first heard aviators (aviators or airmen -- or are they air-people now?) in Europe -- England too -- refer to PPL I had no idea what they were talking about. (If you think Americans love acronyms, try dealing with Germans.) After awhile I figured it out without having to 'fess up to my ignorance. ICAO and the JAA use the term "license" and letter codes to describe the ratings (PPL, CPL, MPL, ATPL). Is this usage something slipping over from Canada?

[Bob Dingley]

PPL is an ICAO/JAA term. When I first heard aviators (aviators or airmen -- or are they air-people now?) in Europe -- England too -- refer to PPL I had no idea what they were talking about. (If you think Americans love acronyms, try dealing with Germans.) After awhile I figured it out without having to 'fess up to my ignorance. ICAO and the JAA use the term "license" and letter codes to describe the ratings (PPL, CPL, MPL, ATPL). Is this usage something slipping over from Canada?
I'll "fess up" too. I had no idea. I recall that it took half a decade to master terms when A&E became A&P and ATR went to ATP.

And what is the difference between AVIATOR and PILOT?

[Gil]

And what is the difference between AVIATOR and PILOT?

I think there are many, many aviators who aren't pilots.

[Bill Greenwood]

As if it really mattered , I have often read or heard many famous aviation people like Martha and John King refer to a PPL as "a license to learn". I've never heard anyone say "certificate to learn".

[Mayhemxpc]

"And what is the difference between AVIATOR and PILOT?"

It seems that the Army and the Navy have Aviators, the USAF has Pilots and the FAA certifies Airmen. In case you think it is a distinction without a difference, here are the thoughts of one pilot/aviator/airman on the subject:

There are airmen and there are pilots: the first being part bird whose view from aloft is normal and comfortable, a creature whose brain and muscles frequently originate movements which suggest flight; and then there are pilots who regardless of their airborne time remain earth-loving bipeds forever. When these latter unfortunates, because of one urge or another, actually make an ascension, they neither anticipate nor relish the event and they drive their machines with the same graceless labor they inflict upon the family vehicle.

-- Ernest K. Gann

That, and both the Navy and the Army have boats, ships, and other floating craft which are also piloted.

[TedK]

"And what is the difference between AVIATOR and PILOT?"
IM<HO Pilots are manipulators of the controls, and are a subset of the family of aviators which includes pilots, navigators, aircrew, etc, and most importantly, those who have not yet broken the surly bonds as aircrew but possess that special attitude and worldview that make them aviators.

Airventure is a wonderful case in point, there are many pilots there, but there are more aviators.

i think the definition has evolved some since it's earliest usage.

[Mike M]

"And what is the difference between AVIATOR and PILOT?"...both the Navy and the Army have boats, ships, and other floating craft which are also piloted.

I don't know for sure what the Army calls their aircraft operators. In Naval Aviator training we were taught that PILOT was an honored job description for highly skilled professional seamen for hundreds of years before aircraft were invented. We are NOT to insult them by usurping their title!

[Mayhemxpc]

Hal,

I think that the thread has strayed from its original topic, which was logging flight time. What we call people who slip the surly bonds and fling their eager craft through footless halls of air seems to be a fun topic, but it is off topic for this thread. Suggestions?

Chris
N424AF

[Hal Bryan]

Hal,

I think that the thread has strayed from its original topic, which was logging flight time. What we call people who slip the surly bonds and fling their eager craft through footless halls of air seems to be a fun topic, but it is off topic for this thread. Suggestions?

Chris
N424AF

Chris - agreed. It's been split...and trimmed a little.

[Mike Berg]

Hmmm! You're right....it's certificate not a license but I don't look like either of the two guys on the back (more hair and no fuzz under the nose).

[MEdwards]

Another example of aviation speak is that it seems aircraft are not "certified," they are "certificated." Does that mean they are issued a piece of paper (which allows certain things) without the "warranty" implied by the word "certified"?

[CarlOrton]

Another example of aviation speak is that it seems aircraft are not "certified," they are "certificated." Does that mean they are issued a piece of paper (which allows certain things) without the "warranty" implied by the word "certified"?

yes. The Certificate of Airworthiness.

[WLIU]

The Certificate of Airworthiness is proof that on the day that the ship rolled out of the factory, it conformed to the type desiign and the manufacturing documentation. Every day after that could have been a step towards chaos and oblivion. The signoff for the annual inspection in the aircraft and appliance logbooks says that on the date next to the signature, a certificated and authorized individual was of the opinion that the airframe and equipment met minimum standards for being an airworthy flying machine. The next day the airplane could have a parts failure and crash.

An airman's certificate is a similar document. On the date of issue an individual has demonstrated the minimum skills required for the level of certification stated. That airman's skills could start degrading to nothing the next day. But one one level its a merit badge that is a statement of achievement. Some folks collect sports trophies, other folks collect certificates and ratings. In the world of recreational activities, either is about equal.

Both Ernest Gann and Richard Bach had something to say about pilots and aviators. I think that I "get" that Bach thinks that for pilots, flying an airplane is something that they do. It is an accomplishment and honorable thing, but at the end of the day they go home to their normal pedestrian life and read the Wall Street Journal. For Aviators, flying is part of what they are. Not something left behind at the end of the work day or at the end of a trip to a fun vacation spot. His book "A Gift of Wings" illustrates this view of how people approach the activity we call flying.

Best of luck,

Wes

[Bill Greenwood]

I have been working on getting my CFI, I passed the written test, but have been a bit hit and miss about getting the rest of it done, especially the oral part. There are a lot of little rules and do dads that have very little to do with real flying and my mind has a hard time remembering the minutea. I would like to know it all well.

Anyway, I can hardly wait to be a Certificated Flight Instructor.

[WLIU]

And then you will want to be an Authorized Flight Instructor...

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Jim Heffelfinger]

RE Maritime connection - My USCG Master's certificate says "License" go figure......

[Hal Bryan]

According to the FAA, my pilot thingy is a certificate. But when I've flown in Canada (as PIC in Canadian-registered aircraft), I get what's called an FLVC: Foreign License Validation Certificate. So Transport Canada looks at my U.S. certificate, then gives me a certificate calling it a license (technically, "licence.")

So I have a certificate that certificates that my certificate is a license...

[Zack Baughman]

So I have a certificate that certificates that my certificate is a license...

And on that day, the Internets exploded... :rollseyes:

[Bill Greenwood]

I looked on a British website for flight instruction and they call it a private pilot License, and as Peter Arnold says, "we (the Brits) invented the language.

[Joe LaMantia]

Hal,

Thanks for separating the thread. When I responded to the initial question, all I was trying to do was help define an abr. I really didn't think it would lead to all the hair splitting and lawyer talk. As far as Aviators and Pilots are concerned, we should remember that people took to the air in balloons a good 100 years before the Wrights flew a powered heavier than air machine. I just finished reading a book by Richard Holmes called "Falling Upwards" which covers the history of lighter than air flight from the Montgolfiers of 1783 to the present. The French lead the military use of balloons as well with the "Corps d'Aerostiers" in 1794. Given the nature of free flight ballooning the term pilot or aviator maybe a stretch, but they sure as heck had passion and nerve! What's in a name?

Joe
;)

[Floatsflyer]

PPL is an ICAO/JAA term. When I first heard aviators (aviators or airmen -- or are they air-people now?) in Europe -- England too -- refer to PPL I had no idea what they were talking about. (If you think Americans love acronyms, try dealing with Germans.) After awhile I figured it out without having to 'fess up to my ignorance. ICAO and the JAA use the term "license" and letter codes to describe the ratings (PPL, CPL, MPL, ATPL). Is this usage something slipping over from Canada?

Perhaps it did slip over from Canada...but that's a good thing, eh? But that's so 5 years ago. Five years ago our licensing system underwent a wholesale transformation. We no longer carry licenses or permits. Our PPL's, CPLs, ATPL's, BPLs, GPL's, MCPL's, ATC's, FE's, RPP's, ULP's, GYP's, CRP's and all the other freekin' attendant and related pilot/aircraft type/class abbreviations are now contained in an "Aviation Document". It's the size and look of a passport, has our passport type picture, personal information, medical certificate/+renewals and all manner of security features, lots of room for new licenses and permits and competency records.

And it has to be renewed every 5 years just like a standard passport.....but no charge for that, just the hassle of renewal.

[Mayhemxpc]

Sounds like the German "Annerkennung" (recognition) of my US certificate. Nice quality work, though. I suppose it would be appropriate to have a picture somewhere on ours. (Although, unlike the lucky guy in the previous post I am beginning to look like a heavier version of one of the guys on the back of the certificate I have.)

Aviators, pilots, and airmen. Could it be that what we DO is pilot aircraft. What we ARE are aviators and airmen.

Chris
N424AF

[Floatsflyer]

Aviators, pilots, and airmen. Could it be that what we DO is pilot aircraft. What we ARE are aviators and airmen.

Chris
N424AF

There are those certain occasions when I like to describe myself in the words of Mr. Yeager--A Natural Born Stick and Rudder Man.http://eaaforums.org/images/icons/biggrin.gif

[Mayhemxpc]

I thought he said there was no such thing as a born pilot. When asked, I simply say: "I fly."

[Jim Hann]

a certificate calling it a license (technically, "licence.")

And that one letter is why, I was told by an old timer, we don't have pilots' licences in the USA. :-)

[Mayhemxpc]

I looked on a British website for flight instruction and they call it a private pilot License, and as Peter Arnold says, "we (the Brits) invented the language.

That is as it may be, but the aeroplane was invented here.

The Europeans decided that pilots needed to be licensed (that is, given special permission by the State) to take a ship aloft. In America, We the People looked at that and merely issued a certificate stating that an aviator/airman/pilot had demonstrated competency to do so safely. If other governments and international agreements say that our certificates are the equivalent of licenses, that is all well and good…but it doesn't make a certificate a license. (Hal's experience notwithstanding.)

[Eagle Six]

Our US pilot certificates do include the words "to exercise the privileges of". Although that may be considered by some to be a "right", it certainly is not in the context of being recognized by a Constitutional Declaration, no more than driving a car or riding a horse. And, the "privileges" are printed on a government issue identification card. I don't need the "privileges" to fly, but they are helpful if I'm questioned about it!!


Best Regards.....George

[Mayhemxpc]

I never said that it was a right. We are splitting legal hairs about this. By definition license is permission to do something. It does not necessarily imply any specific competence to do so. (e.g., a fishing license.) A certificate means that (on the date of the examination anyway) you demonstrated the prerequisite experience and ability to perform a certain thing to a certain standard. With regard to the regulation of air commerce, a person must demonstrate a specified degree of competence to operate an airplane in which a lack of said competence could pose an undue risk to other people. The full text of your certificate says that you have been found to be properly qualified to exercise the privileges of XXX. Among other privileges, a private pilot has the privilege of carrying other people. A commercial pilot can charge for his or her services. Do you have a RIGHT to fly? Maybe. But laws and regulations limit the exercise of that right to ultralight aircraft, where there is minimal risk or serious bodily harm or significant property loss to anyone other than yourself. No certificate or license required.

As regard to a government issued card…well, these days you need a government issued card just to be a passenger on a plane!

[crusty old aviator]

Years ago, I was told that if you got paid to do it, you were licensed, so your private and instrument were certificates and your commercial and ATP were licenses, and A&P's were licensed, too. It seems this was just a lot of wind, or the FAA decided somewhere along the line to standardize all their forms and we all became airmen numbers, instead of names. Whatever...

As for pilots vs. aviators: it used to be common knowledge that you started out as a student pilot, and once you learned to taxi, take off, and land an airplane without requiring a training wheel under the engine, you became an aviator. I've also heard variations on this theme, like aviators prefer flying off of grass to flying off pavement, steam gauges to glass panels, open cockpits to cabins, doped fabric to aluminum sheet, and avionics and GPS: well, they're just unnecessary weight. Give 'em a handful of charts and a good compass and they'll get there, no matter what the weather. Those who refer to themselves as aviators today are usually wannabee early airmail pilots who choose to ignore the fact that most of the real aviators died from impacting the ground in the middle of snowstorms. The one's who survived are the ones who risked ostracism by bailing out or landing in fields to wait out storms. Aviators were a tough, shell-shocked lot that flew because it was their life, it was all they knew, and the longer they survived, the better they got at it. I flew with a few aviators back in the 70's, so I know the archtype well.
WWII fighter pilots were similar to aviators, but when they weren't getting shot at, they enjoyed amenities like heated, enclosed cockpits, oxygen, radios, and gyros. I've flown with many of them, too, and know that archtype.
By the above definition, bush pilots are the only modern equivalent we have to aviators, though I once heard a trike pilot wax poetic about how he was a true aviator because he was out in the slipstream, at one with the wind, communing with the tree-tops, blah, blah, blah. Balloonists are aeronauts, so we shant go there.
Call yourself whatever you want: at the end of the day, the airport's new neighbors will most likely call you sh*thead when you climbout over their house, at GTOW on a hot day, and they're the people who will try to curtail your aviating, flying, and nuisance-making, no matter what we and our little plastic, FAA-issued cards are called.

[Bob Dingley]

Great points from a Crusty, old Aviator. I too have conducted research (and spent more time on this critical matter than I should have) and assembled the data in a cogent manner. At least it was cogent last night before the last Sam Adams.


The FAA certifies Pilots as per the wording on the issued cerificates. The FAA further recognizes "dedicated service, expertise, etc, etc" by awarding a "W. Bros Master Pilot Award. The airlines employ Pilots. Unions organize Pilots.


The USAF uses Pilots. I'm not sure, but I think these were Army Aviators prior to 1947.


The Army has Army Aviators, both Commisioned and Warrant Officers. However, some unit's Tables of Organization & Equip. (TO&Es) state "position requires a RW pilot, rank: WO".


USN, USMC & USCG have Naval Aviators. That said, I met a USN LT some years ago who was a Naval Aviator. He told me that he started as a NAP. That stands for Naval Aviation Pilot. They were called Flying Chiefs. USMC also had flying Sargeants. My company once employed a former Marine in a non flight assignment. Ski started as a SBD gunner in the Cactus Air Force before going on to flight school. He finished carrier quals (SBD) as the war ended. Flying Sgt.


One night in 1959, when I was a young Camp Lejeune Marine, my unit suddenly loaded up on USMC R4Qs. (C-119) Destination unknown. But we were told that we could bring back all the Cigars we could carry. We chatted with the crew while we waited for engine start. Both pilots were Sgts, Flt Eng was a CPL and Navigator was a PFC. We unloaded and went home after a couple of hours.


Bob
Certificated Air Equipment Operator