Smoking at Airventure,

[Bill Greenwood]

It was 60 years ago when the major health research report came out on the many dangers of tobacco smoking; that is not only lung, throat cancer, but heart disease.
Back then, about 48% of people in the U S smoked, and after all the years of finally doing something about it smoking here is now down to about 18%. It is estimated that this has saved 8 million lives over these years, but still accounts for 300,000 or so deaths a year.
Among the most educated people on this, smoking is almost nonexistant, only 2% or doctors and 4% of nurses.
How do the tobacco co.s stay in business? Well, they can still get some kids hooked before they are old enough to know better, and they increasingly sell overseas where consumers are too ignorant, like Russia or eastern Europe. Believe it or not there are people who will chew tobacco even though it is disgusting to others and says right on the can that it can cause mouth cancer, after you loose your teeth.

Should EAA do the right thing and remove all smoking at Airventure? Should SunNFun do the same?

Now there is not a huge amount of smoking at EAA and it is outdoors in designated areas, certainly not around planes on the dry grass. And there are some international visitors who are really hooked on the weed, but in my opinion, here in 2014, EAA ought to do the right thing and follow the good example set by most any school or hospital or major restaurant or hotel and become all non smoking at EAA, and that is also the best example for kids.

[Hal Bryan]

Should EAA do the right thing and remove all smoking at Airventure and SunNFun?

Just to be clear, Sun 'n Fun is independent, and is not an EAA-run event.

Now back to what I'm guessing is going to be an interesting discussion...

- Hal

[martymayes]

Now there is not a huge amount of smoking at EAA and it is outdoors in designated areas, certainly not around planes on the dry grass. And there are some international visitors who are really hooked on the weed, but in my opinion, here in 2014, EAA ought to do the right thing and follow the good example set by most any school or hospital or major restaurant or hotel and become all non smoking at EAA, and that is also the best example for kids.

Not sure if it's international visitors but you can certainly smell "weed" being smoked in Scholler in the evenings.

I doubt EAA will ban smoking at AV.

[middlebrook04]

So Bill you think the way to go is to impose more regulations. No body can really argue that tobacco is not bad for you. That's what we need is more people telling us what's best for us. Why can't we stay out of everyone else's lives. Yes people should be informed about the hazards a product poses, after that it's on them to make their own choice. Yes there should be laws to control distribution to young people and there is. I agree there should be laws that protect none tobacco users from known hazards that that may be posed on them and there is.

I can't wait to see your next thread. Maybe something along the lines (no one who makes less than $100,000 a year should not fly because they can not manage their finances well enuf to afford to). Maybe the next thing we should attack is the fast food industry because they make every body fat. What about Hollywood because their movies make kids stupid. Or auto manufactures because their cars allow drunk drives to operate them. Free will and the choice to make your own decisions and you have to live with the consequences of those decisions.

Yes I'm a tobacco user, but let people make their own choices. Provide all the hazardous information and let the person decide for themselves. That being said I hope my children never use tobacco but if they are of legal age and do that's their choice to make.

[Blue Chips]

I doubt EAA will ban smoking at AV.

Nor should they.

Good examples for kids are to be 1st set at home and If I had small kids today first good example would be to throw the TV away, parent controlled internet and get them out of Public Schools :)

[Floatsflyer]

...here in 2014, EAA ought to do the right thing and follow the good example set by most any school or hospital or major restaurant or hotel and become all non smoking at EAA, and that is also the best example for kids.

C'mon Bill, spare me the self-righteous indignation. The rational, logical raison d'etre for regulating human behaviour is to prevent either harm to oneself or significantly reduce harmful effects/impacts to others. That's why your analogy of comparing Oshkosh to schools, hospitals, etc, is wrong headed and does not meet the test of the latter harm. Those are indoor bricks and mortar buildings where it is acceptable and necessary to ban smoking. Oshkosh is of course outdoors where the impact is negligible or non-existent. The designated smoking area "butt cans" are placed around the grounds in such fashion that a non-smoker can easily avoid them if they wish. The so-called second hand smoke dissipates before you could say, "get that garbage outta here."

[martymayes]

With due respect, a number of outdoor venues, like football stadiums have banned smoking. And since some, like the Big House have a seating capacity of ~100,000, that's comparable to a day's attendance at AV.

The difference is football games still sell tickets with a smoking ban in place and a smoking ban at EAA might hurt attendance. That's why EAA won't touch it.

[vaflier]

If someone is smoking in the designated areas and you do not wish to be around it, then please feel free to stay away from those areas. Thank you for your concern for my health but I will make my own choices. I also smell beer in the camping areas at night, perhaps you should ban beer as well in the tents. While we are at it flying is dangerous to both myself and thousands of others at AV so clearly we should eleminate flying at these events. There have been aircraft accidents at many aviation events for years, just what will it take to get the powers that be to protect us all from those dangerous pilots. I respect your right to live your life as you see fit, kindly extend me the same courtesy. If I am smoking near you and you are bothered, please feel free to ask if I would be kind enough to dispose of it as it bothers you greatly. You will find me to be most agreeable to a polite request.

[miemsed]

All you have to do is look at the ground as you walk around air venture to see that people are throwing cigarette butts everywhere. No one should have to walk over that and no one should have to walk through a cloud of smoke.

EAA should take care of that just like sporting events have.

[malexander]

All you have to do is look at the ground as you walk around air venture to see that people are throwing cigarette butts everywhere. No one should have to walk over that and no one should have to walk through a cloud of smoke.

EAA should take care of that just like sporting events have.

I watched a guy throw a cigarette butt on the ground at one of the tram stops last year. I casually walked over to him, picked up the butt, handed it to him and said, politely, "I believe this is yours, it goes in the trash can, not on the ground". I got the "GTH" look, but, he took it to the trash can. I pretty much do this with anyone I see intentionally drop trash on the ground at OSH. Slobs need to be held accountable.

[martymayes]

If someone is smoking in the designated areas and you do not wish to be around it, then please feel free to stay away from those areas.

That's all well and good but I'll second what miemsed said, smoking occurs outside the designated areas and it appears this is acceptable.

[Mike M]

EAA should take care of that just like sporting events have.

Malexander nailed how this should work. Yes, EAA should take care of it. You are EAA, it is a membership organization, so you are EAA. And him, and her, and me and we. That is how EAA handles things. Polite but effective volunteers.

No, I don't smoke. No, I don't agree it should be outlawed for adults. Yes, smokers should pay health insurance premiums determined by actuaries considering medical risk factors, just like everyone else should be evaluated. No, their premiums should not be determined by politicians. When I am offended by tobacco smoke in smoking-denied places, it becomes a free-fire zone for my methane contribution to global warming. Life is more enjoyable when I whine less about other people's faults.

[Jeff Boatright]

That's all well and good but I'll second what miemsed said, smoking occurs outside the designated areas and it appears this is acceptable.

It's "acceptable" only in that the negatives haven't quite outweighed people's proclivity towards live and let live. The majority of people are non-smokers. They abide smoking around them, smoke in their eyes and up their noses as the random puffs are expelled their way. If it becomes just a bit more of an issue, probably more people will pressure EAA to further sequester it...as is happening in this thread.

We hear and read about personal choices and responsibilities, often in terms of smokers' rights. But, those rights end at the tip of their neighbor's nose, not up inside it.

[FlyingRon]

People love to hate. Of course they won't say they hate just for hates sake, but that's usually the case. They make up some religious, medical, or scientific babble to justify their hate. The argument on second-hand smoke is largely illusory (and as more UNBIASED research comes out, it seems almost nonexistent). The ultimate in ridiculousness is NYC banned e-cigs. The reason is clear. People aren't concerned over smoke, they just hate the idea of smokers.

No I don't smoke either.

[Jeff Boatright]

People love to hate. Of course they won't say they hate just for hates sake, but that's usually the case. They make up some religious, medical, or scientific babble to justify their hate. The argument on second-hand smoke is largely illusory (and as more UNBIASED research comes out, it seems almost nonexistent). The ultimate in ridiculousness is NYC banned e-cigs. The reason is clear. People aren't concerned over smoke, they just hate the idea of smokers.

No I don't smoke either.


That's not my perception, but who knows what motivates people? Maybe hate, but I think it's probably more a learned reaction based on previous experience when around smokers. I've been around smokers all my life. With rare exceptions, and regardless of how they whinge on about being oppressed by non-smokers, they are not courteous about the impact of their habit on those around them. It is the rule and not the exception that smokers blow their palls horizontally into the breathing space of those around them. It is the rule and not the exception that, when done with the cancer stick, the smoker tosses the butt on the ground. So much for personal responsibility.

[FlyingRon]

Such is the behavior of most dolts (smoking or not). People throw crap on the ground, people drive vehicles on soft ground between the rows and give crapload of grief to those (even in authority) who ask them to stop. For good reason I'm neither working for security or in any larger position of authority other than middle management at Airventure (where I politely inform people of the rules and if they won't comply or wish to discuss it I bump it up the food chain).

There are a small amount of dolts in the population, smoking and non-smoking that make things annoying for the rest of us. For every one who throws the butt on the sidewalk, there's 100 more that put them in either an official or otherwise reasonable disposal. Hell I've seen people leave used diapers in disgusting locations. Let's ban babies from Airventure.

[Mike Switzer]

I don't smoke, but...

Obesity kills way more people than smoking (either smoking directly or secondhand). I think EAA should ban all of the corn dogs & other "fair food". :)

While they are at it they might as well ban fat people, they take up more than their share of space & skinny people don't like to look at them. :rollseyes:

(Just thought I would make a humorous comparison)

[WLIU]

There is something comical about reading the opinions of a bunch of folks who create noise pollution and spew partly burned leaded fuel into the atmosphere, and create noise in the sky that frightens a lot of people, talk about other folks bad habits.

I think that the late Jim Morrison said that "No one here gets out alive."

The grounds at the big show are stunningly clean, which is a tribute to the good manners of 99% of the folks who fly, drive, and walk in. There are a few folks who don't do as well, but they are easy to avoid. Not a problem worth much energy.

I will hazard a guess this topic is a product of, it is winter, most of us, including me, can't fly much, and we are running out of constructive topics to talk about.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Jeff Boatright]

Such is the behavior of most dolts (smoking or not)...There are a small amount of dolts in the population, smoking and non-smoking that make things annoying for the rest of us. For every one who throws the butt on the sidewalk, there's 100 more that put them in either an official or otherwise reasonable disposal. Hell I've seen people leave used diapers in disgusting locations. Let's ban babies from Airventure.



"A 2009 observational study by Keep America Beautiful found cigarette butts were the single most littered item, and that 57 percent of smokers threw their butts on the ground when outdoors, compared with 43 percent who disposed of them properly."

-from: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-08-23/news/ct-oped-0823-zorn-20130823_1_cigarette-butts-smokers-ifs

The majority of smokers toss their butts on the ground. That's pretty far from the assumption of 1 "dolt" in every 100 smokers. Obviously this may not be the case at Oshkosh or other venues where, in theory, smoking is sequestered. I wonder what the tossing rate is, though, for Oshkosh smokers who smoke outside of the designated areas. Again, so much for personal responsibility...

[Jeff Boatright]

There is something comical about reading the opinions of a bunch of folks who create noise pollution and spew partly burned leaded fuel into the atmosphere, and create noise in the sky that frightens a lot of people, talk about other folks bad habits...


Yep, about as ironic as someone commenting about all the people discussing smoking at Airventure on a thread entitled "Smoking at Airventure (http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?4658-Smoking-at-Airventure/page2)"

Ha! ;)

[CarlOrton]

Dunno if I was just more observant in 2013, but it seemed like there were many more butts on the ground last year. Seemed like most were along the pathway on the south side of the forums area by the metal / welding / fabric pavillions, but that could have just been the only data point I noticed.

[Floatsflyer]

Seemed like most [butts] were along the pathway on the south side of the forums area by the metal / welding / fabric pavillions...

Ah ha!!! The evidence is in, now we know. I knew it was those homebuilder guys, the ones who throw conventional wisdom(and butts) to the wind. ;)

[martymayes]

The majority of people are non-smokers.

Yes, for the US it's around 80%. EAA'ers are likely on par with the general population, which means the EAA isn't about to alienate 1/5 of it's members with a smoking ban at AV.

[Bill Greenwood]

I am sure that there are smokers who put their litter in a butt can, but smokers are one of the few groups that at least quite a few will throw their trash on the ground. I have seen well dressed people in a nice car throw their butts out the window, in my home town where only perhaps 10% of people smoke. If you go most anywhere you will not find empty bags from the bakery on the ground after people finish their muffins or cookies or donuts. You generally don't see people throwing their Coke bottles( or Pepsi if it is EAA which doesn't offer Cokes or Dr. Pepper) or even beer bottles on the ground. Anywhere there is smoking , garage, parking lot, business, park, subway or just sidewalk will have cigarette butts on them. This is something that other people notice and it is one of the things that make us really dislike smoking, anywhere. It shows that if one is addicted to cigarettes, they really are controlled by that and don't give a hoot about anything else when it comes down to it. I don't think many smokers even notice what they do with their trash or even consider it as wrong to litter. If tobacco is really so great they should keep all of it, maybe put it in their pocket.
If a person is so addicted that they are going to smoke in a house with kids or in a car with kids or in a hotel room despite the non smoking policies and signs , that tells you something about the person's attitudes toward others. I recall a few years back, seeing Sylvester Stallone in our old airport FBO office smoking a cigar right under the large no smoking sign. Another thing you will see in cities where there are non smoking hotels or restaurants is that smokers will stand just outside the doors so that the fumes may blow inside or at the least everyone who goes in or out has to walk through their cloud.

[Bill Greenwood]

As for how many people smoke, surveys a few years back show only 18%, so therefore 82% are non smokers. It is hard to get an 82% majority on many things, and it may be more than 82% for EAA. As you go up the scale of education and maybe other factors like occupation or income you get less smokers, so I suspect the folks at EAA are above the norm on these measures and smoke less. There are, of course, other factors like geographic regions where some places like Seattle still seem to have more smokers and some like Colorado have less. I think older people may still smoke more and younger less.
Anyway, what I'd like to see EAA do is poll their members, both on this and other major questions, and follow the wishes of the majority. 82% of members should not be ignored to indulge the few. If smoking were banned at EAA, it would bring us up to the standards of most other astute groups, and for a group that is trying to involve more young people, it would set a good example for them.
Would it lose any business for EAA? I don"t think so. For the few of the 18% who might quit coming, just as likely some of the other 82% will come. Even foreigners who smoke at home are used to going places like airlines where they don't smoke.
When Mayor Stirling began non smoking in Aspen 20 years ago, there were dire predictions, one bar in particular, that it meant the end of visitors in Aspen. To the contrary, we were packed this Christmas with the good snow and the airport is wingtip to tip with fancy jets.

[krw920]

Fact is some people still smoke, and I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is that in todays society, smoking comes with conditions, smoke in designated areas only, and dispose of your waste in the receptical provided in those areas. If you can't do that, then I have a problem with you being a smoker.

I could never understand why any smoker thinks they can just throw their waste on the ground where ever they happen to be, and the one that really burns my a$$ is those who flick glowing butts out the car window. Want to smoke, fine, but be considerate of others who do not, and pick up after yourselves!

[martymayes]

Bill, I read where Madison/Dane county are voting on a referendum this spring to see if residents want to legalize marijuana use. Perhaps it won't be long before Wisconsin follows Colorado's lead and legalizes marijuana use. By AV 2015, visitors to A.V. might be getting high in more ways than one. On the plus side, nobody throws their marijuana cig butts on the ground.

[Floatsflyer]

[QUOTE=Bill Greenwood;38216] I have seen well dressed people in a nice car throw their butts out the window... If you go most anywhere you will not find empty bags from the bakery on the ground after people finish their muffins or cookies or donuts. You generally don't see people throwing their Coke bottles( or Pepsi if it is EAA which doesn't offer Cokes or Dr. Pepper) or even beer bottles on the ground. QUOTE]

Yes, they do throw butts out the window(even in not so nice cars). That's because the north american car manufacturers stopped putting ashtrays in them 20 years ago! Perhaps you should direct your animous to them and suggest on their forums that they should build cars with ashtrays once again.

As far as other litter is concerned, you must live in a insular, utopian Stepford Wives environment. I live in a big city(Toronto) and see litter strewn and my city has the reputation over decades of being one of the cleanest in the world. One of the highest compliments Oshkosh receives year in and year out is the cleanliness of the grounds considering 600,000+ people attend. So I and others here don't think there is the slightest problem or issue present. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!! Gotta get off the soapbox and speak to something else that actually impacts your fellow man/woman.

[Bill Greenwood]

Floats, a question aside from smoking if I may.
Is Gatinuea (sp) a suburb of Toronto?
I am thinking of attending a seminar soon at the Canadian aviation museum in the next few weeks.
Is the weather really bad now? Are there much non aviation sights to see?
Thanks

And yes, I am lucky to live in a very nice place, the downside is the real estate is so expensive there and the light fun type gen aviation is definitely in minority at our airport. And except for cig butts, it is not considered cool to litter there.
As for cars not having ash trays now, I don't have tray in my car for newspapers or soft drink bottles, but I put them in reclyling, not out the window.

[Floatsflyer]

Anyway, what I'd like to see EAA do is poll their members, both on this and other major questions, and follow the wishes of the majority. 82% of members should not be ignored to indulge the few. If smoking were banned at EAA, it would bring us up to the standards of most other astute groups, and for a group that is trying to involve more young people, it would set a good example for them.

A poll!!! I don't think so...common sense shall and will prevail. If EAA HQ thinks a problem exists, I'm sure we'll hear about it.

I want to address your scewed vision of majority/minority with respect to civil liberties and human rights. Smokers are indeed the minority and slowly becoming even moreso. But FYI, going all the way back to the ancient Magna Carta, civil rights concerns and legislation are put into place to PROTECT minorities, not alienate and disenfranchise them(or as you say, indulge).

Parents are responsible for setting high standards and good examples, not EAA or any other organization.

[Floatsflyer]

Floats, a question aside from smoking if I may.
Is Gatinuea (sp) a suburb of Toronto?
I am thinking of attending a seminar soon at the Canadian aviation museum in the next few weeks.
Is the weather really bad now? Are there much non aviation sights to see?
Thanks

And yes, I am lucky to live in a very nice place, the downside is the real estate is so expensive there and the light fun type gen aviation is definitely in minority at our airport. And except for cig butts, it is not considered cool to litter there.
As for cars not having ash trays now, I don't have tray in my car for newspapers or soft drink bottles, but I put them in reclyling, not out the window.

Of course, and thanks for changing the subject for a moment...I was getting so stressed, I had to go outside for a smoke.

Gatineau is as much a suburb of Toronto as Aspen is a suberb of Los Angeles. Gatineau is in the province of Quebec, on the Ontario border across the river from the capital, Ottawa. BTW, fantastic skiing in Gatineau...check out Camp Fortune. Ottawa is 260 miles NNE of Toronto. Are you sure you've got the correct place because the Canadian Aviation Museum(a must see!) is in Ottawa at Rockcliffe Airport(yes, you can fly right to it).

Ya, the weather has been really bad in eastern Canada(just like eastern and midwest US), lots of snow and a particularly horrendous ice/freezing rain storm 3 weeks ago that brought many areas to their knees with power outages lasting up to 12 days. Lots of damage to trees and with ice laden limbs falling on hydro poles and wires knocking out the power(Toronto lost 20% of it's tree umbrella-some parts of the city and burbs looked like Guadalcanal at battles end).

I went to university in Ottawa for 5 years. We say that Ottawa has 2 seasons--winter and August. Seriously, Ottawa is beautiful in the summer(partly because of the one million tulips planted in the spring-no exaggeration- a continuous yearly gift from Queen Isabella of the Netherlands for the sanctuary provided her and her family by Canada during WW11), lots to do with its many museums, beautiful downtown areas to explore, outdoor pedestrian malls, take a ride on the Rideau Canal and visit the Parliament Buildings. You can even visit the Prime Ministers residence(just around the corner from Parliament). Many of these things you can also do in the winter as well. The Rideau Canal turns into the worlds longest skating rink in the winter with a large Winterfest, so don't forget your skates or you can rent. Lots of vendors on the canal for food, etc.

With winter being bad this year, I haven't been able to fly in 6 weeks and now the 182 is almost due for its annual which means another 4 weeks with no flying. At least I can look forward to the Olympics and March Madness.

[martymayes]

Yes, they do throw butts out the window(even in not so nice cars). That's because the north american car manufacturers stopped putting ashtrays in them 20 years ago! Perhaps you should direct your animous to them and suggest on their forums that they should build cars with ashtrays once again.


I own 3 Detroit made cars all less than 10 yrs old and all three have ashtrays. Motorists throw butts out the windows because to them, that's acceptable.

[Joe LaMantia]

OK interesting thread!

Just to continue on flying this winter, I flew on New Years Day just a short 45 minutes but a nice day, vis 10 miles, ceiling 7000MSL, wind 3KTs, pick any runway! I just got back home from another nice day here in Ohio, flew to Grimes Fld for lunch clear skies, wind about 12KTs so had a bit of a crosswind on my return landing (Hartzell Fld). This is 2 flights in Jan 2014 despite the Polar Vortex! Most years I shut it down in Dec and maybe get a flight in mid-March!

I'm not a smoker, but did play around with smoking in my 20's...I quit in 1972 and don't miss that habit. My Dad smoked most of his life, started at 14 and quit at 75...lived to 90! When a kid starts at 14 or so the habit becomes a part of his person, it is an identifying trait. I'm not concerned about smoking at AV, unless I see someone flipping butts around parked aircraft! 100LL can make quite a campfire! When you hold a big event like AV you will always get a few jerks around who's actions screw things up for somebody. Smoking is a dirty habit and if you start it at a very young age you will pick-up the crummy habits of flicking ashes all around the house or car and flipping butts on the ground, kinda of monkey see, monkey do activity. In the end, I agree with some on this thread regarding freedom of choice and if someone decides to smoke knowing the dangers then that is his business. I also agree that with any freedom come some responsibility and here's is where things get tricky. In my opinion, we should allow smokers to smoke in safe areas and if somebody gets upset about some smoking behavior then they are free to complain. As long as we have smoking areas and smoke free zones then there's something for everybody it's a win-win.

Joe
:cool:

[Jeff Boatright]

...So I and others here don't think there is the slightest problem or issue present...

This is a surprising statement given the thread. Let me be clear: I do not like that smoking is permitted at at OSH.

[vaflier]

This is a surprising statement given the thread. Let me be clear: I do not like that smoking is permitted at at OSH.
That is certainly your right to have that opinion. I do not like that alcohol is permitted at OSH, I however do not feel that I have the right to tell others how to live their life. When and if someone who is imbibing becomes a problem to me then I will respectfully deal with that individual, not try to stop everyone from having a beer and relaxing. Live and let live works pretty well in most instances.

[Floatsflyer]

This is a surprising statement given the thread. Let me be clear: I do not like that smoking is permitted at at OSH.


The word "others" does not mean everybody, so no need to be surprised. Your objection is clearly and duly noted.

[Floatsflyer]

I own 3 Detroit made cars all less than 10 yrs old and all three have ashtrays. Motorists throw butts out the windows because to them, that's acceptable.

Ok, I don't know what you're driving so I stand corrected. No cars of mine have had an ashtray since 1998. You are likely right about it becoming acceptable behavior: lack of objection or consequences over time equals acceptance. That's how society changes.

[Gil]

Bill, I read where Madison/Dane county are voting on a referendum this spring to see if residents want to legalize marijuana use. Perhaps it won't be long before Wisconsin follows Colorado's lead and legalizes marijuana use. By AV 2015, visitors to A.V. might be getting high in more ways than one. On the plus side, nobody throws their marijuana cig butts on the ground.

Madison and Dane County are surrounded by reality.

Outside of Madison and Milwaukee, Wisconsin is mostly conservative. With a Republican governor and legislature, I doubt you will see legal weed at AirVenture.

[miemsed]

I don't smoke, but...

Obesity kills way more people than smoking (either smoking directly or secondhand). I think EAA should ban all of the corn dogs & other "fair food". :)

While they are at it they might as well ban fat people, they take up more than their share of space & skinny people don't like to look at them. :rollseyes:

(Just thought I would make a humorous comparison)

I do not have to eat the corn dog at Airventure that some one else is eating.

[miemsed]

That is certainly your right to have that opinion. I do not like that alcohol is permitted at OSH, I however do not feel that I have the right to tell others how to live their life. When and if someone who is imbibing becomes a problem to me then I will respectfully deal with that individual, not try to stop everyone from having a beer and relaxing. Live and let live works pretty well in most instances.

I do not have to drink the alcohol at Oshkosh that someone else is drinking. I am often forced to breath in the smoke from the smoker.

[Floatsflyer]

I am often forced to breath in the smoke from the smoker.

Forced!?! Forced!?! Let me say it again for added emphasis. Forced!?! You do realize that I'm imagining 87 guys with orange EAA sweatshirts grabbing you, taking you behind a hangar, tying you up with the latest and greatest S&M outfit all the while force feeding smoke into every body cavity you possess. Quite the image, eh?

But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and suspend my disbelief by specifically asking you to respond to the W5 of journalism. Who forced you? What allowed you to be forced? When were you forced? Where were you forced? And, Why were you forced? Ready....go.

[vaflier]

I do not have to drink the alcohol at Oshkosh that someone else is drinking. I am often forced to breath in the smoke from the smoker.

You might well be run over by a drunk driver though, but I am sure that you will be more concerned as to wether he was smoking at the time .

[miemsed]

You might well be run over by a drunk driver though, but I am sure that you will be more concerned as to wether he was smoking at the time .

I hope you realize how foolish that sounds. I am going to assume you were trying for humor.

[Mike M]

This is hilariously past cigarette smoking at OSH. Political philosophy battle. Control freaks who distrust or even despise their fellow humans vs proponents of individual rights exercised responsibly vs anything goes. Wow.

No wonder government is so messed up. We elect them.

[Jeff Boatright]

This is hilariously past cigarette smoking at OSH. Political philosophy battle. Control freaks who distrust or even despise their fellow humans vs proponents of individual rights exercised responsibly vs anything goes. Wow.

No wonder government is so messed up. We elect them.


We already have the data in general and specifically at Oshkosh: Smokers do not take the personal responsibility to smoke in designated areas. Smokers do not take the personal responsibility to properly discard their butts. Smokers do not take the personal responsibility to direct their outflow away from their fellow human beings. This is the outcome of allowing smoking at any venue: the majority of smokers are irresponsible and so we end up in discussions like this.

I thus don't like it that EAA allows smoking at Airventure. Am I going to do anything about this beyond commenting on a web forum? Of course not. I'm pretty much the opposite of a control freak, nor do I despise my fellow human beings, or whatever else is your flavor of the day for pigeon-holing people who recognize irresponsible behavior that impacts fellow human beings.

Is that political?

[Joe LaMantia]

This is hilariously past cigarette smoking at OSH. Political philosophy battle. Control freaks who distrust or even despise their fellow humans vs proponents of individual rights exercised responsibly vs anything goes. Wow.

No wonder government is so messed up. We elect them.

cdmuetzel@juno.com

SPOT-ON! We get the govt. we deserve, and the basic argument of this thread is at least as old as our republic.

Joe
:cool:

[Bill Greenwood]

This smoking at EAA question is not that complex. We know beyond a doubt the smoke is bad for you, primary or secondary, despite what some smokers claim.
I'd like to see EAA do the right thing like most college campuses, etc., and this would not only meet the view of the majority, but be a good example for younger people.
Major quality hotel chains are non smoking, though you can still find a few on the low end that tolerate smoking and they smell like it. Same for restaurants, churches, etc. These businesses have not lost customers, they have gained them.If you are appealing to the higher end customer, they increasingly don't want to be around smoke.And businesses find lower cleaning costs and health care costs being cleaner.
It has nothing to do with "kids out of public schools" or me saying "people under $100k should not fly" or any other nonsense which of course I didn't say or write.
And in the long run since many smokers say they'd like to quit if nicotine was not so addictive, this would be helping them quit, as the more places where people don't smoke the more people quit.

If on the other hand, EAA doesn't change anything, we can live with it at Airventure. The limited smoking areas are outside, and most visitors aren't smoking anyway. When we had this discussion in August after Oshkosh some people didn't even realize there was smoking allowed there.
I do wonder if someone high up in EAA is a smoker since they are behind many other venues in their rules.
I think one of the reasons most people, up to 90% are nonsmokers where I live is that at 6000 to 8000 feet there is less oxygen so you don't want to waste any of it!

[CarlOrton]

Slightly orthogonal to the original post, but I think it's funny so....

2 years ago we flew into Richmond Va and proceeded to the hotel. (big-name national chain). As we were checking in, we were asked, "Smoking or non-smoking?" Catching me off-guard, I was obviously taken aback, and replied, "You STILL have smoking rooms available?!?" To which the clerk replied, "Oh, yes! We have TWO WHOLE FLOORS dedicated to smoking rooms!"

By now I'm completely blown away by this. She then adds, "Remember - this is Richmond - home to X number of tobacco companies!"

OHHHHHhhhhhhhh....... Some businesses still listen to their customers.

And, BTW, I'm a non-smoker, not an anti-smoker.

[Gil]

Smoking at AirVenture is allowed, but only outside of buildings. So, comparison with restaurants and hotels doesn't really hold up. Are there other large outdoor gatherings that prohibit smoking? Concerts? County fairs? Carnivals? I honestly don't know. I generally avoid smokers and have no problem doing that at Oshkosh.

[Dave Stadt]

This smoking at EAA question is not that complex. We know beyond a doubt the smoke is bad for you, primary or secondary, despite what some smokers claim.
I'd like to see EAA do the right thing like most college campuses, etc., and this would not only meet the view of the majority, but be a good example for younger people.
Major quality hotel chains are non smoking, though you can still find a few on the low end that tolerate smoking and they smell like it. Same for restaurants, churches, etc. These businesses have not lost customers, they have gained them.If you are appealing to the higher end customer, they increasingly don't want to be around smoke.And businesses find lower cleaning costs and health care costs being cleaner.
It has nothing to do with "kids out of public schools" or me saying "people under $100k should not fly" or any other nonsense which of course I didn't say or write.
And in the long run since many smokers say they'd like to quit if nicotine was not so addictive, this would be helping them quit, as the more places where people don't smoke the more people quit.

If on the other hand, EAA doesn't change anything, we can live with it at Airventure. The limited smoking areas are outside, and most visitors aren't smoking anyway. When we had this discussion in August after Oshkosh some people didn't even realize there was smoking allowed there.
I do wonder if someone high up in EAA is a smoker since they are behind many other venues in their rules.
I think one of the reasons most people, up to 90% are nonsmokers where I live is that at 6000 to 8000 feet there is less oxygen so you don't want to waste any of it!

How do you propose to police the "No Smoking" rule? Seems to be like numerous laws and rules that are un-enforceable or simply not enforced. Simple in concept, difficult if not impossible to implement.

[pacerpilot]

Bill, Avgas is bad for you when you spill it on your hands. Exhaust is really bad for you. I sprayed some Stits Poly the other day without a respirator (I know, but it was a small patch and my respirator finally fell apart) which is bad too. The fact is we expose ourselves to many dangers. Surely we should reduce the ones we can-like smoking. But, unlike Avgas, exhaust and, a deteriorated respirator, smoking has a way of correcting itself. It kills the smoker. Until enough people wise up or die I'd say the best thing to do is avoid what you can-and rip a huge fart for when you can't:D!!! That's my favorite when walking into WalMart through their "smoke zone", i.e. the front door.

[WWhunter]

Delete

[Richard Warner]

My 2000 Chevy pick up and 205 Lincoln Aviator both have ash trays. I quit smoking 26 years ago and would never go back. I don't like smokers blowing smoke on me, but I'm not about to want EAA to ban smoking. As for voting to ban it, that's kind of like three wolves and a lamb voting for what to have for dinner. If you see someone smoking out of a designated area, report it to security. If you see someone throw a butt on the ground, mention to them that we don't do that at Oshkosh. There are some people who wish to control what other people do and say. If I were allowed to mention it here, I could almost accurately guess their political affiliation, but I won't do that because it would be said I was being politically incorrect. :) I think a lot of the problem has come up in the last 20 or 30 years when EAA started allowing people who have no aviation background onto the flightline. Sure, they sell them a one year membership at the entrance gate and all of a sudden they are allowed on the flightline around member's planes. Before that, they were not allowed on the flightline unless accompanied by an EAA member as their guest who would be responsible for their actions while on the flightline. I've seen women allowing their kids to climb on other folks airplanes and when I mentioned to them that it is not allowed, I am told to go to hell, it ain't your airplane, is it? These are the folks that throw trash including butts on the ground for the most part. This, to me, is a much bigger problem that whether someone smokes in a designated smoking area and happens to throw their butts on the ground.

[Richard Warner]

This smoking at EAA question is not that complex. We know beyond a doubt the smoke is bad for you, primary or secondary, despite what some smokers claim.
I'd like to see EAA do the right thing like most college campuses, etc., and this would not only meet the view of the majority, but be a good example for younger people.
Major quality hotel chains are non smoking, though you can still find a few on the low end that tolerate smoking and they smell like it. Same for restaurants, churches, etc. These businesses have not lost customers, they have gained them.If you are appealing to the higher end customer, they increasingly don't want to be around smoke.And businesses find lower cleaning costs and health care costs being cleaner.
It has nothing to do with "kids out of public schools" or me saying "people under $100k should not fly" or any other nonsense which of course I didn't say or write.
And in the long run since many smokers say they'd like to quit if nicotine was not so addictive, this would be helping them quit, as the more places where people don't smoke the more people quit.

If on the other hand, EAA doesn't change anything, we can live with it at Airventure. The limited smoking areas are outside, and most visitors aren't smoking anyway. When we had this discussion in August after Oshkosh some people didn't even realize there was smoking allowed there.
I do wonder if someone high up in EAA is a smoker since they are behind many other venues in their rules.
I think one of the reasons most people, up to 90% are nonsmokers where I live is that at 6000 to 8000 feet there is less oxygen so you don't want to waste any of it!

Churches?????????? I don't ever remember being in a church where folks smoked. The way to handle the problem of smokers smoking out of the designated areas is to have security remove them from the grounds. A few signs making folks aware of this should serve to remind folks not to smoke outside of those areas. That way there wouldn't be any butts to walk on except in those smoking areas.

[MADean]

All you have to do is look at the ground as you walk around air venture to see that people are throwing cigarette butts everywhere. No one should have to walk over that and no one should have to walk through a cloud of smoke.

EAA should take care of that just like sporting events have.

I remeber the first time I spent the entire week at Oshkosh. It was 1992. And as I was walking across the grounds on the last day, back to pack up my camp, I thought to myself how clean the grounds were. I specifically remember not even finding a cigarette butt on the ground. Of course that was before the general public was allowed on the flight line.

I'm just saying...

Oh, and as for football stadiums, and the like... those are "close seating" venues. Where you're packed in tight as a sardine. Oshkosh is much different.

[Mike M]

" Am I going to do anything about this beyond commenting on a web forum? Of course not. I'm pretty much the opposite of a control freak, nor do I despise my fellow human beings, or whatever else is your flavor of the day for pigeon-holing people who recognize irresponsible behavior that impacts fellow human beings."

I used a humor technique called "hyperpole" but if anyone thinks the shoe fits...




2 years ago we flew into Richmond Va and proceeded to the hotel. (big-name national chain). As we were checking in, we were asked, "Smoking or non-smoking?" Catching me off-guard, I was obviously taken aback, and replied, "You STILL have smoking rooms available?!?" To which the clerk replied, "Oh, yes! We have TWO WHOLE FLOORS dedicated to smoking rooms!"

By now I'm completely blown away by this. She then adds, "Remember - this is Richmond - home to X number of tobacco companies!"
r.

Richmond story reminded me....restroom at little airport in south Alabama......sign above the paper towel dispenser..."no we don't have those durn hot air machines that blow germs all over, our neighbors make a living from forest products"

[Jeff Boatright]

I used a humor technique called "hyperpole" but if anyone thinks the shoe fits...




Ah yeah. There's a certain whiff of something in the air here.

[Jeff Boatright]

I remeber the first time I spent the entire week at Oshkosh. It was 1992. And as I was walking across the grounds on the last day, back to pack up my camp, I thought to myself how clean the grounds were. I specifically remember not even finding a cigarette butt on the ground. Of course that was before the general public was allowed on the flight line.

I'm just saying...

Oh, and as for football stadiums, and the like... those are "close seating" venues. Where you're packed in tight as a sardine. Oshkosh is much different.


Good point about close seating venues versus Oshkosh. Not sure, though, that a comparison to how things were over 20 years ago (coming up on 22) holds as much weight, but I know what you mean about how it used to be. How it is now is different. As Richard Warner points out, there's a lot of people on the flight line now who are not long-term EAAers. Things change.

[Jeff Boatright]

... There are some people who wish to control what other people do and say. If I were allowed to mention it here, I could almost accurately guess their political affiliation, but I won't do that because it would be said I was being politically incorrect...

Or maybe just incorrect with no qualifiers? ;)

People tend to be all over the political spectrum when it comes to their hobbyhorses (recall the case of Terri Schiavo).

[Bill Greenwood]

This has shifted away from smoking to when non members began to be allowed on the flight line. Now I have been coming to Oshkosh since 1984 and I am all for non members, that is the general public being allowed to walk among the planes. I like people and I like to promote and share our kind of sport aviation with more people. One of the best things about going to EAA is the feeling of being part of almost a family or at least the same type of club, like a summer camp for adults. People are almost always at their best, their most polite, most cooperative, like picking up litter, and sharing space on trams and at tables. I think that is the legacy that Paul set for and left for all of us, and we are at our best when following it. I have personally seen Paul in front of warbird briefing stop in Red One and get out and pick up, by hand, some cigarette butts.
Anyway, I think the general public is pretty well behaved and not a real problem, and I have never seen anyone smoking out among the airplanes. I like the way EAA does it, in the morning you can walk all the way out and see all the warbirds and then about an hour before show time people are sent back behind a crowd line.
There are all kinds of people at EAA, and one thing I like is that for one week we are all part of it together, whether liberal democrat or right wing republican. Maybe even we can see some of the way others see their issues and they see ours. Many things are not just all black/white.
Yes, it can be annoying to have someone climb on your plane, but really is your plane so fagile it is going to fall apart from one kid? If you own a T-6 do you think anyone ever climbed on it during the service years/ And I have never had anyone curse at me when Politely asking them to get off. If you are really disturbed by the public just put a rope around your plane with a polite "Don't touch" sign. I always use a sign, but not a rope.
If you want to look at it strickly from a selfish standpoint, we as airplane people are a minority and we need all the friends and voters on our side whenever we are faced with some anti aviation move or law like at Meigs Field or St. Pete in Florida or Santa Monica.

[GothiUllr]

This has shifted away from smoking to when non members began to be allowed on the flight line. Now I have been coming to Oshkosh since 1984 and I am all for non members, that is the general public being allowed to walk among the planes. I like people and I like to promote and share our kind of sport aviation with more people. One of the best things about going to EAA is the feeling of being part of almost a family or at least the same type of club, like a summer camp for adults. People are almost always at their best, their most polite, most cooperative, like picking up litter, and sharing space on trams and at tables. I think that is the legacy that Paul set for and left for all of us, and we are at our best when following it. I have personally seen Paul in front of warbird briefing stop in Red One and get out and pick up, by hand, some cigarette butts.
Anyway, I think the general public is pretty well behaved and not a real problem, and I have never seen anyone smoking out among the airplanes. I like the way EAA does it, in the morning you can walk all the way out and see all the warbirds and then about an hour before show time people are sent back behind a crowd line.
There are all kinds of people at EAA, and one thing I like is that for one week we are all part of it together, whether liberal democrat or right wing republican. Maybe even we can see some of the way others see their issues and they see ours. Many things are not just all black/white.
Yes, it can be annoying to have someone climb on your plane, but really is your plane so fagile it is going to fall apart from one kid? If you own a T-6 do you think anyone ever climbed on it during the service years/ And I have never had anyone curse at me when Politely asking them to get off. If you are really disturbed by the public just put a rope around your plane with a polite "Don't touch" sign. I always use a sign, but not a rope.
If you want to look at it strickly from a selfish standpoint, we as airplane people are a minority and we need all the friends and voters on our side whenever we are faced with some anti aviation move or law like at Meigs Field or St. Pete in Florida or Santa Monica.
I don't have any desire to get into the smoking debate, but this is incredibly well said. Thank you Bill

[Tommuller2000]

I have never smoked on a regular basis and have grown to find smoke unpleasant when exposed to it. However, everyone has the right to risk their health in whatever dangerous pursuit they choose, whether it is cigarettes, airplanes or some other activity that has a statistical probability of shortening your life. As a group persecuted for our "dangerous" sport, we should cut the smokers a little slack. If society is allowed to pursue cradle to grave safety, the end result will be a planet of zombies. Read dystopian fiction such as "Brave New World" or "One Perfect Day" if you have doubts.

[genekent]

All you have to do is look at the ground as you walk around air venture to see that people are throwing cigarette butts everywhere. No one should have to walk over that and no one should have to walk through a cloud of smoke.

EAA should take care of that just like sporting events have.

In 21 years of attendance at EAA, I doubt I have seen 10 cigarette/cigar butts not in appropriate containers. I'm not a smoker.
Gene

[jjhoneck]

As for how many people smoke, surveys a few years back show only 18%, so therefore 82% are non smokers.

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

I've owned hotels for the last 12 years, and I can tell you two things with some certainty:

1. People lie on "surveys" when they are asked about bad habits.

2. Far more than one in five people still smoke.

There are an AMAZING number of people who smoke "socially", don't consider themselves addicted (and, in fact, they may not be), and therefore don't report themselves as "smokers".

Our current hotel is in a very popular vacation destination community. People come here to let their hair down, have fun -- and when they go hit the bars, they seem to smoke in large numbers.

I might believe that one in five people are "serious" smokers -- but there are at least twice that many who are "casual" smokers who smoke socially.

In the interest of transparency, I quit smoking in 1986. I was a VERY serious smoker, and once had serious doubts about anyone's ability to smoke "socially". But I see it all the time, which means they ARE either "social smokers", or they are "real" smokers, and are self-delusional, as well as probably liars when they are surveyed.

However you slice it, given the older demographics of EAAers, and this weird phenomenon, I'd put the number of smokers, serious and casual, at 2 in 5. Sadly.

[Bill Greenwood]

JJhoneck, I didn;t invent the statistics on smokers, they are from Gallup and other sources. Just now looking at CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL, gives 19% of smokers as of 2011. NEW YORK TIMES gives this as 18% as of 2012 in the U S. Nothing in the data I saw was about how serious a smoker one was. You can believe or not as you prefer.
If you own hotels that allow smoking then you likely are getting that segment of the public, not reflecting the overall %.
I have seen surverys of the town where I live that puts smoking at about 11%. We are at high altitude and not much oxygen to waste and a high level of education of people here.
Education is the biggest indicator of whether people smoke, it tops age or income, etc,
Among low education people, 45% smoke, if you have high school diploma it goes down a bit, and if a college degree it goes down to only about 10% according to these studies, which are right on the Center for Disease Control website.
Most of the larger and sucessful hotel chains are non smoking and seem to do fine with the other 82%. I know it is illegal to smoke in restaurants in Austin, and all restuarants and also bars are non smoking By State Law here in Colorado.

By the way, I have a couple of pilot friends who vacation in Pt Aransas, do you happen to know the Knapps?

[rwanttaja]

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

I've owned hotels for the last 12 years, and I can tell you two things with some certainty:

1. People lie on "surveys" when they are asked about bad habits.

2. Far more than one in five people still smoke.

I don't disagree with your point #1 (actually, I do, but I'm going to lie about it :-), but I wonder if the second is related to where you're living. I live near Seattle, and rarely see anyone smoking, even in the designated smoking areas. Of course, our laws around here are somewhat draconian... can't smoke within 25 feet of a door, outside in a public park, etc. Was a bit different when I stayed in Virginia for a couple of days...

Might be that the farm country and the south see a bit higher smoking rate. Wonder what the demographics were, for those surveys Bill quoted.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Education is the biggest indicator of whether people smoke, it tops age or income, etc,
Among low education people, 45% smoke, if you have high school diploma it goes down a bit, and if a college degree it goes down to only about 10% according to these studies


Doesn't seem to be the case in my tiny part of the world. I know very few people who smoke. Of the ones that do and whom I call my good friends, here's the breakdown: 2 investment bankers with MBA's, 1 lawyer, a former teacher, 1 doctor, 1 chiropractor, 1 accountant, 1 geologist.

When I was in university a hundred years ago everyone smoked inside the buildings....we even had ashtrays built into the seats in lecture halls and classrooms.

[jjhoneck]

**"JJhoneck, I didn;t invent the statistics on smokers, they are from Gallup and other sources."**

I didn't say you made up the numbers. I said people lie to pollsters when asked about bad habits. That includes Gallup.

**"If you own hotels that allow smoking then you likely are getting that segment of the public, not reflecting the overall %."**

We have never allowed smoking at our hotel in Port Aransas. There aren't many hotels that still allow smoking. Heck, even smokers don't want to stay in smoking rooms!

But Port Aransas is a walking, island community. As a result, I am able to observe our guests coming to/from the hotel, as well as in the parking lots, at poolside, etc.

Way more than 18% will be seen with a cigarette at least once during their vacation. Alcohol will often be involved. 'Twas ever thus.

**"I have seen surverys of the town where I live that puts smoking at about 11%. We are at high altitude and not much oxygen to waste and a high level of education of people here."**

I believe there are definite regional differences. At our hotel in a frigid Northern college town, the number of smokers was less than here in a warm vacation destination in the South.

Part of that is education level, but much of it is the vacation destination aspect. People let their hair down here, which is as it should be on an island.

These people are smoking recreationally, much like the person who only goes bar hopping once a year, when they are away from home and far from the prying -- and judgmental -- eyes of their neighbors.

**"By the way, I have a couple of pilot friends who vacation in Pt Aransas, do you happen to know the Knapps?"**

The name doesn't ring a bell, but we meet so many pilots that I've given up on names. After so many years, it now takes at least three visits for the name to register anymore. lol

(Sorry for the weird reply format. I can't figure out how to multi-quote using Tapatalk on my tablet.)

[champ driver]

I was going to make a comment on aviation, but I see that somehow I got on a smoking web site, sorry.

[Bill Greenwood]

People "let their hair down" when I go to U T football games and they had to stop serving beer at C U games because the crowd was so rowdy, and we are about to have the X games here in Aspen, the extreme skiing, boarding and snowmobiile contests. But all that may involve some drinking or just loud exhuberance , but it won't have much cigarette smoking.

The Knapps live near Coriscana and fly a Lancair 360.

[Floatsflyer]

I was going to make a comment on aviation, but I see that somehow I got on a smoking web site, sorry.

I get your need for sarcasm and it might have some small measure of merit with respect to the thread going a little off topic in spots. But you need to accept that the exciting, yet comparatively, small world of aviation must sometimes address and include those more mundane subjects that permeate the overall societal culture. Afterall, we aviators and aeronautical enthusiasts don't live in a bubble.

[Mayhemxpc]

Just to chime in...

I have been enjoying reading the string. I have nothing significant to post other than the observation that Bill seems to try hard…and often with great success…to stir things up in the topics he starts.

Chris Mayer
N424AF

[Floatsflyer]

Just to chime in...Bill seems to try hard…and often with great success…to stir things up in the topics he starts.

Chris Mayer
N424AF

It's a natural outgrowth of what he owns and flies. Definitely very exciting and stunningly stirring! I wanna go for a ride.

[jjhoneck]

The Knapps live near Coriscana and fly a Lancair 360.

Hmmm. We DID have beers with a couple who showed us their Lancair 360 a few days ago, but neither of us can remember their names.

They also owned a Cessna 400 series twin. Same folks?

[Frank Giger]

I think the sight of zealous anti-smoking volunteers summoning security and forcibly escorting smokers from the grounds would be a delightful way of showing the best side of EAA.

Particularly if the Anti-Smoking Security and the Help Our Living Experience volunteers got special armbands. And radios. And tasers.

Oh, and a free bratwurst, beer, and XXXXL t-shirt.

It's an outdoor venue. Is this really a problem, considering there already are reasonable restrictions on where people can smoke?

And spare me the "it's for the children" line; it, not patriotism, is the last refuge of scoundrels. In fact, a large portion of the tobacco settlement goes towards funding healthcare for children. Take away the tobacco money and you reduce medical care for children. Turning it around on this specious line, anti-smokers are for reducing or denying medical care for children. How's that sound? is that a reasonable bit of logic?

It's not a health issue - if you're sucking in cigarette smoke outdoors it's in amounts that are negiligible and you probably shouldn't be hanging around in a designated smoking area if you're that vulnerable.

It's not a litter issue, as there are already rules about littering and it still happens. A person throwing a cigarette butt on the ground is no different than the person that throws a gum wrapper or a corn dog stick to their feet. They're all equally bad. I hate to see cigarette butts on the ground as much as I do any other trash, but that doesn't make it worse or better.

It's a political issue, one of self-righteousness and making one feeling better about themselves.

[miemsed]

Nonsense

[Floatsflyer]

Nonsense


You should know. Most, if not all your remarks here have been of the nonsensical variety. Really! Let common sense and live and let live within the rules prevail ...always.

[miemsed]

Nonsense

[tspear]

I think the sight of zealous anti-smoking volunteers summoning security and forcibly escorting smokers from the grounds would be a delightful way of showing the best side of EAA.

Particularly if the Anti-Smoking Security and the Help Our Living Experience volunteers got special armbands. And radios. And tasers.

Oh, and a free bratwurst, beer, and XXXXL t-shirt.

It's an outdoor venue. Is this really a problem, considering there already are reasonable restrictions on where people can smoke?

And spare me the "it's for the children" line; it, not patriotism, is the last refuge of scoundrels. In fact, a large portion of the tobacco settlement goes towards funding healthcare for children. Take away the tobacco money and you reduce medical care for children. Turning it around on this specious line, anti-smokers are for reducing or denying medical care for children. How's that sound? is that a reasonable bit of logic?

It's not a health issue - if you're sucking in cigarette smoke outdoors it's in amounts that are negiligible and you probably shouldn't be hanging around in a designated smoking area if you're that vulnerable.

It's not a litter issue, as there are already rules about littering and it still happens. A person throwing a cigarette butt on the ground is no different than the person that throws a gum wrapper or a corn dog stick to their feet. They're all equally bad. I hate to see cigarette butts on the ground as much as I do any other trash, but that doesn't make it worse or better.

It's a political issue, one of self-righteousness and making one feeling better about themselves.

Frank,

i am actually allergic to smoke. It makes my eyes water, turn red, almost instant sinus headache.... And that is just the start.
generally, I have no issue staying away from designated smoking areas (e.g. Bars while in college). The issue for me on this thread is the smokers who leave the designated smoking areas; they demonstrate a lack of courtesy and respect for others which I think is a more common complaint about society today.

As a side note, since I am not around smokers nearly as much now as when I was growing up my tolerance is actually lower.

tim

[Frank Giger]

Nonsense

Nonsense is comparing a sporting event that lasts four to five hours to a week long event where people stay literally for days on end, never leaving.

Nonsense is comparing an event where people are placed in fixed seats close together to an event on forty acres over two sites, mostly out of doors. Especially considering the fact that when people are put together at Airventure smoking is restricted.

Make a rule that people won't follow and they won't follow it at all. Completely banning smoking means that smoking will happen where and when it shouldn't. This could have been right out of Atlas Shrugged; make the rules that will only make the law abiding man a criminal. And frog marching people off the grounds in handcuffs is rediculous in the extreme.

@ tspear - people smoking outside of designated areas is a different issue than a complete ban. I agree with you, and suggest that a gentle word to the errant smoker is usually all it takes to get them to stop.

When we see someone touching a plane that they shouldn't we don't run up screaming and have them forced from the grounds. We ask them not to and explain why. The only way to stop it entirely is to ban people from aircraft parking areas - and even then it won't stop it. It would kill the romance of sleeping under one's wing, but hey, let's not apply common sense; let's get draconian!

[miemsed]

nonsense

[Frank Giger]

Glad to see we're finally in agreement!

[miemsed]

Nonsense

[Bill Greenwood]

Frank, "its a political issue" of "self rightousness"?

Is it the American Democratic way to smoke no matter the people around you or the damage to yourself? Well, it may have been back in the 50"s when you had movie stars like Bogart with cigarettes in many scenes or the outdoorsy image of the Malboro man, but not anymore and perhaps because Bogey died of throat cancer in his 50s and the other guy also of cancer. Even back then, it seems less than half the people were smokers. In 2014, most people know better, and least in the U S, and smoking is definitely not the American way, in fact it really is the Communist Chinese way. No joke, in China approxmately 350 million people smoke, it seems a manly thing to do , but now they are starting the see the harmful affects and beginning to have regulations.

Yes, most smoking at Oshkosh is outdoors in limited areas where it has less impact on most of the public. Most EAA members have some level of politeness, and we can live with it as in the past. But 2nd hand smoke is listed as as a carcinogen, and I don't want to be breathing it especially around the eating areas.
Frank, the Superbowl is an open air event, but the NFL has banned smoking there also.

And yes, the image we set for teenagers and kids is important, and as a parent and an EAA member I'd like our organization to be on the healthy side of this issue.

By the way, on Yahoo this morning there is a whole section about quiting smoking, for those who are trying. I have never been a smoker, tried one as a kid and it tastes awful. If donuts tasted like cigarettes I'd be thinner. So while I can't see how someone can enjoy that taste and even more the awful smell that gets in your clothes, car, house., I have read the nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs and it may take a number of attempts to break the habit.
The thing is to not have people stating smoking while they are young.

[martymayes]

I have read the nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs and it may take a number of attempts to break the habit.


Well, flying is also addictive but as we used to say, there's worse things to be addicted to.

[Eagle Six]

I've only been an EAA member for a few short months, and only a local chapter member for a few weeks. I have been reading all I can on the website, as well as, this forum in an attempt to learn the EAA and the membership. For the most part I surely have been made to feel welcome. A place I could go to escape from the daily drag of our country going upside down, and somewhat hide in the glory and love of aviation. Reading all I could, I then tripped into this thread. I wish I hadn't, but I suppose, like everything else....it is what it is. I'm feeling more and more, I will not be welcome because I don't fit the moral standard, lifestyle standard and certainly not the education standard as the OP has stated.

As unfortunate as it is I have read some of this thread, it most certainly will prove a mistake to make this post. But.....it is what it is, and I would rather find out sooner rather than later, perhaps I just don't fit in this crowd. It does seem to be getting stuffy in this thread. Just an opinion and will most likely be one of those times I should keep my mouth shut! Everyone certainly has a right to their opinions.


Best Regards.......George

[champ driver]

George I hope you stick around here.
On rare occasions someone says something that should be left at the door because certain subjects divide this country rather than bring us together. Forget those few posts and remember what we're here for, we all have a love of aviation in it's many different aspects.
Stay for the common interest in flying.

[Jim Rosenow]

I wouldn't take this thread too seriously, George. Seems some of these guys are more concerned about proving themselves to be masterdebaters, as opposed to the actual topic that's chosen. There are parallels with a similar word....they enjoy it and they don't much bother anyone else. :-)

Welcome aboard!

Jim
EAA 64315 (joined 1/1/71)

PS-- Watch this, George....high wing vs. low wing....come on guys! :-)

[Bill Greenwood]

George, if you come to Oshkosh and like airplanes you should enjoy it, and if the airplanes are not enough for you, then there is a bar/restaurant right outside the north gate. While Wisconsin state law, like that of most states,even Arizona, prohibits indoor smoking, they have an outdoor patio where you can revel in a lot of smoke and smokers.

[GothiUllr]

Wow, that was both condescending AND inconsiderate. So we can pretty much sum this debate up as "If you're a smoker; come for the airplanes then GTFO"

[Hal Bryan]

Okay guys, I'm sick of this one. Time to shut it down.