Experimental or Certified?

[Sal_Ruiz]

Hi everyone,
I need some advice but let me first give a little introduction about myself. I'm a 28 years old recent daddy wanting to fly since a child. Well money was not enough to do both college and fligh school so I decided to finish school and get a bachelor in finance. After 3 years due to marriage, a home , a baby, and a demanding job I have not been able to finish my ppl (got only 40 hrs). Another contributing factor being that there is not a flight school in my city, I used to have to commute to San Antonio and Mcallen Tx when in college for flight lessons. It is more challenging now because working in the energy sector (100+ hrs per week) leaves me with limited time with family if on top of that I have to drive 5 hrs. But if could fly instead of driving then It would be more manageable to fly to get more training and spend time with my family.

Now the question . . . its been always my dream to fly a Long EZ and I even never seen one in person, at the same time I like very much the Grumman Tiger I used to train with. Can anyone give me an honest opinion of why should I get one or the other or even give suggestions about other aircraft?. My wive hates to fly but may be my daughter would like it in the future (3 mo old now) so mainly I would be flying myself or ocacionally with another friend or parent. Also I'm not sure right know but I would like to fly for a living someday but my current job is providing for a decent living for my family and the possibility to buy my own aircraft within the next year.

ALL COMMENTS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED THANK YOU

[1600vw]

I see no one wants to jump in here and help you or offer any advice.

Just me but I believe one should crawl before one runs. I do not believe you would go out and first learn to drive a semi before you would first learn to drive a car. Since your daughter is young why not spend this time learning how to fly or making yourself ready for the day you want to fly with her.
Your Mission. Define your mission right now. Do not say things like, " well in 10 years I would like to do such and such", what do you want to do today. Also look at the hourly cost it takes to operate or own whatever it is you are looking at.
Jumping right into a Long-ez is biting off more then a new pilot could handle. Things happen fast as speed goes up. I myself would get some hrs like in the 100's before looking at jumping into something like this.
If you don't you could become a statistic and leave your daughter without a father. Take it slow have a lot of fun and above all meet new people. If you believe the first plane you buy will be your first and last, you are wrong. Your mission will change as you become a better pilot.

Hope this helps...
Tony

[Max Torque]

Is there an airport near you? If you're looking to own a certified plane, I recommend you work backwards, so to speak - i.e. look at fixed pitch/fixed gear and insurance & maintenance & upkeep costs, procurement cost, resale viability, accident statistics of various airplanes, and whether or not you'll be able to hangar your plane. With a wife and kid, you'll want something with a good track record that's easy to fly that you can use to build time, yet will carry the family and have a decent range and cruise speed, etc. Probably the most bang for the buck certified for this are the Cessna 172 and Piper PA-22. I'm sure others will pitch in here with their opinions too.
Best wishes!
Tom

[MickYoumans]

Sal, like the two previous posts, I think you would be wiser to stick with a certified plane like a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee since you don't have your license yet. Either plane would be great to finish your license in and would have room for passengers and baggage too. I owned a Cessna 150 for my first plane. I got my PPL in it and sold it a couple years later when my family outgrew it. I never liked having to crawl up a ladder to fuel the Cessna so I went low wing after that. I highly recommend the Cherokee because they are very easy to fly, inexpensive to own, operate and maintain, plus there are a lot of them on the market to choose from. They can be found for very reasonable prices on Barnstormers and Trade-a-plane.

[Sal_Ruiz]

I appreciate everybody's comments if been thinking about this for a long time and yes tanks for confirming that a certified would be the best option right know. Im pretty sure there is information around here about all the questions that come when purchasing a plane. Yes we do have an airport down here with mainly cargo operations also there are a couple small-town airports within 50 miles.

What I noticed is that nobody commented about the grumman tiger I guess the cherokee or 172 have significantly better track record.

[pacerpilot]

Sal, I'm with everyone else on this. Stick with the certified bird or an experimental that's a side by side. If your wife doesn't like to fly she never touch a Vari/LongEze or any tandem. My wife "will" fly, but doesn't really "like" it. I had a VariEze once, I had her get in and didn't even get the canopy closed when she said "nope, let me out NOW". However, she does fly with me in my Pober Junior Ace. She's not thrilled with the open cockpit, but she's getting used to it. Being side by side made the difference. She has no problem with my other planes; T-carts, 172's, etc.

[Sam Buchanan]

Hi everyone,
I need some advice but let me first give a little introduction about myself. I'm a 28 years old recent daddy wanting to fly since a child. Well money was not enough to do both college and fligh school so I decided to finish school and get a bachelor in finance. After 3 years due to marriage, a home , a baby, and a demanding job I have not been able to finish my ppl (got only 40 hrs). Another contributing factor being that there is not a flight school in my city, I used to have to commute to San Antonio and Mcallen Tx when in college for flight lessons. It is more challenging now because working in the energy sector (100+ hrs per week) leaves me with limited time with family if on top of that I have to drive 5 hrs. But if could fly instead of driving then It would be more manageable to fly to get more training and spend time with my family.

Now the question . . . its been always my dream to fly a Long EZ and I even never seen one in person, at the same time I like very much the Grumman Tiger I used to train with. Can anyone give me an honest opinion of why should I get one or the other or even give suggestions about other aircraft?. My wive hates to fly but may be my daughter would like it in the future (3 mo old now) so mainly I would be flying myself or ocacionally with another friend or parent. Also I'm not sure right know but I would like to fly for a living someday but my current job is providing for a decent living for my family and the possibility to buy my own aircraft within the next year.

ALL COMMENTS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED THANK YOU

Sal,

I completely understand your desire to aviate, it is what keeps all of us in the flying community.

However, sometimes life's schedule makes realizing the dream difficult. There were several points in your post that really raised some red flags:

*working in the energy sector (100+ hrs per week)----wow....you barely have time to sleep, much less take on a hobby that eats up huge chunks of time.

*leaves me with limited time with family--Uh oh, this is a major problem. Those of us who have been in aviation for a few decades can relate numerous instances of a pilot who endured a divorce because the spouse did not share the aviation passion or appreciate the hours away from home.

*My wive hates to fly--oh my...this is getting worse....see above.

*so mainly I would be flying myself--still getting worse....see last two points above.

*28 years old recent daddy--well....what can I say......

There is one variable that MUST be present when diving off into the aviation world----family support. To undertake such a time-consuming and very expensive hobby without spousal support is an invitation to disaster.

Now. having said all that, all is not lost. You need to begin exposing your wife to the fun aspects of aviation.....in small steps. Become a part of the local airport or EAA community. Get her acquainted with other aviation spouses who can lead her toward aviation. Allow her to become acclimated to aviation at her pace. This cannot be rushed!! This may take a few years, but possibly she will soften her opposition to the point where you can restart training. But diving off into aircraft ownership at this point is not in your future...if you want to keep your family.

One last point. If you intend to commute via aircraft, you will need an IFR capable aircraft and be a proficient instrument pilot. You may be looking at way over $100K by the time you are trained and have a suitable aircraft.

Go into this with both eyes wide open...and best wishes!

[1600vw]

My wife said " I will support you all you want in your aviation dream, just don't EVER ask me to get involved". I guess one reason I will always fly a single seat. Aviation is a one person hobby for me.

But the amazing thing, in my area I know of a few other men whom are just like me. Just one difference. I log onto sites like this and look for others. These men troll sites like this but will NEVER post.

Sometimes I don't blame them.

Tony

[Mike M]

What I noticed is that nobody commented about the grumman tiger I guess the cherokee or 172 have significantly better track record.

Significantly better track record? 172 vs cherokee vs AA5 series? Leave that to statisticians. My first plane was AA5 traveler. Great family plane for parents+preteen kids. No shock struts, commonality of "wear" parts with Cessna, easy to maintain but the canopy leaked rain when parked outside. Oh well. Flew tigers as relief pilot for 135 operator, thought i'd died and gone to heaven. Baggage door, full fuel+2 guys+2 women+baggage and still under gross, cruise fast as a 200hp arrow or sierra for less gas. No wing in the way for turns vs 172, better vis over the nose than cherokee. But the cheetah, great compromise for a family plane. Bit cheaper to feed 160 vs 180 hp, decent cruise, same cabin. bigger tanks than early travelers, so ok IFR range. Decent airplanes.

Your mileage may vary.

[Mike Berg]

I"ve owned a Cessna 150, Cherokee 140, Champ, Aeronca L16 and am presently rebuilding and recovering a Aeronca Super Chief. Hands down my favorite plane was the Cherokee 140 which I owned for 25 years. Other than radios and transponder repair (insert nasty word here) it took very little maintenance and you could haul Mom, Dad and a couple little people without much trouble. If I wanted more carrying capacity I'd step up to a Cherokee 180. Fixed gear, fixed prop, not much to go wrong other than routine maintenance. I'd stay away from exotic planes like the Long EZ or anything that travels fast enough to get you into big trouble in a hurry......at least until you have at least 500 hours. No mattery what you consider get a good competent aviation mechanic to look it over......very carefully.

[FlyingRon]

I have owned a certificated (albeit vintage) aircraft for nearly 20 years (a Navion, imagine a bigger, louder, more fuel consuming Tiger). I've dabbled with the idea of a homebuilt, either something simple and fun like a Fly Baby, or perhaps (since I also live on a airpark on a lake) something like a Sea Rey.

If you want to FLY, I'd recommend getting something already built (either a certificated ship or an already built homebuilt). This will give you something to do (and keep your skills up) while you dabble with the idea of what you are going to build yourself. Even the simplest homebuilts are going to take several years unless you are tremendously dedicated to hacking away at the thing in every spare moment. It is suspected that a lot of the infant mortality of homebuilts come from pilots not keeping their flying skills up right prior to their test phases.

[1600vw]

One big problem is the person whom just built their own airplane and then insist on doing the first flights. This is no time for a low time pilot to fly something never flown. Have someone whom does this do it for you. I am lucky and have such a friend. I have no idea how he got into this, but anytime someone in my area has an airplane that needs its first flight they call Lynn.

In Decatur IL a few years ago we had something like this happen. I knew the man whom inspected this airplane for the FAA. He told me he told that man...Do Not Fly this for the first time but have someone fly it for you. He insisted on being the first pilot to fly her, told his family, I am going to fly my airplane and see you later. Neither happened.

I believe the NTSB found pilot error to be the cause. Loss of control.

Same if you purchase an airplane. Have the first flights flown by someone else if you are a low time pilot or transitioning from a different class to a HB. This person can give you a lot of input as to what the airplane does and doesn't do.

Don't be a statistic.

Tony

[Louis]

There's a Cessna 150 on Barnstormers now for $13,900. You could probably find an Aeronca Chief in about the same price range and a Chief is so cute you're wife wouldn't be able to resist!

[Frank Giger]

My wife said " I will support you all you want in your aviation dream, just don't EVER ask me to get involved". I guess one reason I will always fly a single seat. Aviation is a one person hobby for me.

But the amazing thing, in my area I know of a few other men whom are just like me. Just one difference. I log onto sites like this and look for others. These men troll sites like this but will NEVER post.

Sometimes I don't blame them.

Tony

Oh, I'm with you, and have always been upfront about it. She's actually flown with me twice, and does go to the rare EAA chapter dinner - but then again, I'll go if she has some company dinner function.

Flying is my thing, not our thing. We have loads of things we do together, but she has things she likes to do that are akin to having a root canal to me, so we respect each other's spaces and don't criticize.

Of course it's inconsistent. She'll very gently say "honey, enough airplane talk, it's giving me a headache,"* on Monday and say "Well, my husband is not only a Sport Pilot, he's building his own airplane" with a surprising amount of pride in her voice on Tuesday to someone.

* Poor dear suffers from the occasional migrane and the longer I talk about flying stuff the louder my voice gets with the rise in excitement.

As to our original poster, I'd go with a certified plane for cost and convenience. And use parental influence to put the aviation bug into the daughter.

[FlyingRon]

My wife was afraid to fly when we met (even commercially). I managed to nail a turkey buzzard with the wing of the 172 on her first flight. Her third flight with me was going to Oshkosh. By the next year she had her license. By the next year after that she was flying the Navion in to the show. We were volunteers of the year down in Vintage this year.

The only downside is she wants to fly half the legs.

[I_FLY_LOW]

Go certified to start, then maybe take your time later on, and build something with the family.

[pacerpilot]

Go certified to start, then maybe take your time later on, and build something with the family.

That's very good advice.

[Sal_Ruiz]

Thanks everybody for the advise. Yep I shall go certified and I'll be asking for advice to buy a plane soon next year. And just maybe in the future once I get promoted to a more reasonable schedule (6 days on out of town 3 days off right now) I may try to build or rebuild a plane and by then also hopefully have more experience.

Just one question. . . Is it me or lately there is a shorter supply of used aircraft than the previous years?

[zaitcev]

Just one question. . . Is it me or lately there is a shorter supply of used aircraft than the previous years?

It comes and ebbs. I kept a spreadsheet for several years while I was hunting for my airplane. You could see Mooneys come on the market and go, 150s raise and fall in price, all in mysterious waves. Except for Cherokees, of course. Those pests are unkillable like roaches. :)

P.S. The Cherokee in my forum avatar had enough major damage that it never flew straight. Reportedly it crashed, the owner repaired it, and then the day he came to look at it fixed the shop dropped it off a jack and bent the spar. Owner sold it broken for a funny value to an out-of-town FBO. The FBO owner fixed it up, but it never flew straight ever since. I passed my checkride in it.

[Max Torque]

Sal, It's actually a buyer's market right now! Of course, people selling don't want to act like it. Be aware that a lot of people selling airplanes are worse than used car salesmen! I've checked out dozens of planes over the years and one must be extremely careful. There are lots of good honest people selling, but there are also way too many who aren't honest. Do not buy a plane with a "fresh annual" that was performed by the seller's mechanic/IA. Have your own mechanic inspect the plane/do the annual/etc. not the seller's! Good luck! Tom

[jchirtea]

Hi Sal:
You do not have your ppl yet, so I think it is a mistake to consider either the Long EZ or the Grumman. Get some time in one of the easiest planes to learn in, and that would be a Piper Cherokee, a Piper J-3. or an Aeronca Champ. If you want to buy one of these, you will find many at great prices on Barnstormers. Of course, you will want an A&P to check out your purchase. As the old saying goes,"Keep it simple!!" John

[cynamonb]

You can learn to fly in just about anything. I have an uncle who did his primary training and received his PPL in a Cessna 182RG. So in theory you could learn to fly in the Long-Eze but I agree with the others that a more docile trainer is a better idea. As regards certificated vs Experimental. I agree with the others here too. A certificated aircraft is more of a known quantity, most experimentals undergo continuing development and troubleshooting for the first 150 to 200 hours. Wit your schedule you're better off with something that will be plug and play. Based on your comments I'd look at a post 1969 Cherokee 140. A good one can be had pretty reasonably they are good reliable aircraft that are reasonably cheap to insure and operate. If your budget allows I would consider the Grumman as well.

[Mike M]

You can learn to fly in just about anything... If your budget allows I would consider the Grumman as well.

When I was in the Navy we taught thousands of people to fly in T28s. Boys and girls. From scratch. They and the Wind Farce do it now in turboprops because engine management is easier and kids are dumber. But in an AA5? I NEVER had a student who couldn't fly an AA5. Fixed pitch, fixed gear, flaps don' make no nevvamine to the approach, what's NOT to like about an AA5?

[1600vw]

When I was in the Navy we taught thousands of people to fly in T28s. Boys and girls. From scratch. They and the Wind Farce do it now in turboprops because engine management is easier and kids are dumber. But in an AA5? I NEVER had a student who couldn't fly an AA5. Fixed pitch, fixed gear, flaps don' make no nevvamine to the approach, what's NOT to like about an AA5?

That's great if that is what you are going to fly. Training in a T-28 does nothing for the folks flying something weighing in at 300 or so lbs or a two seat ultralight style aircraft that has been registered.

Tony

[ssonixx]

I learned to fly in a Grumman AA5A. Great plane. Good for training, fun plane to fly, and good experience from which to get up to a quicker vehicle. Haven't flown a Tiger but the flying characteristics are supposed to be the same. Can't go wrong with the Grumman.

[Infidel]

Hi everyone,
I need some advice but let me first give a little introduction about myself. I'm a 28 years old recent daddy wanting to fly since a child. Well money was not enough to do both college and fligh school so I decided to finish school and get a bachelor in finance. After 3 years due to marriage, a home , a baby, and a demanding job I have not been able to finish my ppl (got only 40 hrs). Another contributing factor being that there is not a flight school in my city, I used to have to commute to San Antonio and Mcallen Tx when in college for flight lessons. It is more challenging now because working in the energy sector (100+ hrs per week) leaves me with limited time with family if on top of that I have to drive 5 hrs. But if could fly instead of driving then It would be more manageable to fly to get more training and spend time with my family.

Now the question . . . its been always my dream to fly a Long EZ and I even never seen one in person, at the same time I like very much the Grumman Tiger I used to train with. Can anyone give me an honest opinion of why should I get one or the other or even give suggestions about other aircraft?. My wive hates to fly but may be my daughter would like it in the future (3 mo old now) so mainly I would be flying myself or ocacionally with another friend or parent. Also I'm not sure right know but I would like to fly for a living someday but my current job is providing for a decent living for my family and the possibility to buy my own aircraft within the next year.

ALL COMMENTS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED THANK YOU

Don't put the cart before the horse. It hurts not to dream and have goals but in order for achievement, a plan has to be made. You mention you "only have 40 hours" towards your ppl. Not knowing where you stand in your training and what you need to finish for your final exam/check ride, I'd recommend devoting a solid week or two, such as an accelerated course, with a reputable flight school and "get 'er done."

Everyone is different as well as life's nuances. I started working on my ppl 12 years ago and I ended up putting the cart before the horse; by buying two LSA planes and playing in that arena while sidelining my desire to complete my ppl. A couple months ago, I figured it was time to get off the pot and finish it. I enrolled in an accelerated training course with a reputable flight school and on the 10th day, I completed my exam and check ride with the Examiner with a total of 42.5 hours. It was one of the most stressful things I've done in years. But by keeping the momentum of my training moving forward, I was able to attain so much in so little time.

Good luck to you, commit, and you'll be glad you did.

[Mike M]

That's great if that is what you are going to fly. Training in a T-28 does nothing for the folks flying something weighing in at 300 or so lbs or a two seat ultralight style aircraft that has been registered.

Tony

So true, Tony. But the OP was looking for advice about getting a private so he can fly with his family and said he likes the Grumman, by which most folks in this arena thought he meant AA5 not G5. Somebody said AA5 was unrealistic for a first plane, some of us with experience in type disagreed, and are encouraging him to follow his dream. You can do it, Sal!

[Pearson]

Sal,

My suggestion would be to just rent an airplane when you want to fly and forget about owning till later. If you own, you are responsible for insurance, hangar, annual inspections - including Airworthiness Directives, and unforeseen repairs. Many of those expenses continue, even if you don't fly that month. By renting, you only pay for what you fly. And you can upgrade to larger faster aircraft that you might not otherwise be able to afford.

[raytoews]

I own a Grumman Cheetah in Canada. I have owned a dozen different types and am firmly attached to the Grumman. It is the simplest most economical fastest airplane in this category.
Move to Canada, we have something called Owner Maintenance, turns an airplane like my Cheetah into a homebuilt. The advantage being you can ignore most of the rules your mechanic has to live by and just fix it by common sense. It is still an airplane and must be maintained, you just don't have the govt looking over your shoulder.
This is being proposed by,,,someone, everyone, right now, write your congressman and make this happen. You want to make flying affordable??

[Greg Wilson]

Sal, My recommendation would be to rent until you get your certificate. Net look at the CURRENT mission you only need one seat so look at certified 2 seaters like the C-150,inexpensive to purchase and maintain. If you have a non-towered or "quiet" towered field nearby look at an experimental single seat. Something like a Fly Baby, Corbine/Pober Ace, or mini-max. If going the later route ,light single seat, get as much time in the lightest most similar aircraft as possible. Flying is flying so a true part 103 ultalight might work if you just want to fly, you can rent for license currency and when you want to take some one along with you. As far as training in the Tiger, great airplane but a bit fast and slippery so it will be a lot different than flying something lighter especially something like a small single seat.

[crusty old aviator]

I am wicked surprised that some rabid Rutan fan hasn't posted a rant about the virtues of the Long EZ and how you all "just don't get it." The Long EZ has had a controversial past and a large percentage of them are now grounded, or have been ground up, so, given your selection of only the two, I'd definitley say "buy a Grumman."
However, if you're not going to be flying that Grumman more than 120 hours a year: RENT!!! The advantages of renting over owning are many, including gaining experience in many different types with many different instrument layouts and avionics, and NO nickle & diming maintenance issues, storgage fees, insurance, and having a big chunk of your finances tied up in something your partner (wife) is ambivalent (at best) about. It's nice to have that dream of owning your own plane, so don't give up on it, just put it on hold until you can realistically commit to flying at least 10 hours every month. Hopefully by then you'll have a better idea of what the best plane for you is, and what you'll want in the panel.