Hazardous Attitudes

[Mike Switzer]

After some things I have read here recently I believe a review of this AOPA Flight Training article may be in order.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/1999/September/199909_Features_Hazardous_Attitudes.html

[Mayhemxpc]

It is a good article and the subject of numerous safety seminars. That said, I think that this, like all things, can be taken to extremes. I think that a truly good pilot has ALL of these hazardous attitudes. I think that a certain degree of each of them is even necessary to be a good pilot. A quick look at the posts in this forum indicate a healthy anti-authority attitude among almost -- if not all -- of the pilots here. Even resignation, which with a positive spin could be called "humility"…knowing when you can't do something and need some help. In looking at all of these hazardous attitudes, we must remember, "moderation in all things."

[Mike M]

After some things I have read here recently I believe a review of this AOPA Flight Training article may be in order.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/1999/September/199909_Features_Hazardous_Attitudes.html


Yep.

[Frank Giger]

Am I the only one that thinks that the author writing that we shouldn't simply give up on things and should change our tendency for resignation by starting out his article stating that he sold his motorcycle because he scraped the pegs in a traffic circle just a little bit hilarious?

[WLIU]

That material has been around for a while. Obviously written by someone flying a large steel desk (LSD).

For better or worse, aviators are not your average individual. Slavish adherence to all of the rules can get you killed. Doing stupid stuff that the rules attempt to prohibit can get you killed. Most of us live in that middle ground where we learn to do what makes sense for the flight operation in progress.

The breadth of aviation covers individuals who launch hang gliders off mountains through individuals who launch into orbit. If the people who populate aviation conformed to the sort of dimensions described in the article, guys like Yeager, the Rutans, or even Paul P, could not exist.

I like the line from the movie "Bull Durham". "We play this game with arrogance and fear..."

Food for thought,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

That material has been around for a while. Obviously written by someone flying a large steel desk (LSD).

For better or worse, aviators are not your average individual. Slavish adherence to all of the rules can get you killed. Doing stupid stuff that the rules attempt to prohibit can get you killed. Most of us live in that middle ground where we learn to do what makes sense for the flight operation in progress.

The breadth of aviation covers individuals who launch hang gliders off mountains through individuals who launch into orbit. If the people who populate aviation conformed to the sort of dimensions described in the article, guys like Yeager, the Rutans, or even Paul P, could not exist.

I like the line from the movie "Bull Durham". "We play this game with arrogance and fear..."

Food for thought,

Wes
N78PS
One of if not the best post i have seen in a long time....My Hat goes off to you..

The first name that came to my mind was....Bob Hoover. I love aviation.....

[1600vw]

You know we get caught up in the Class of airplanes and kinda forget...We all love our airplanes so much we will fight for them...

My hat goes off to everyone whom flies and calls this there hobby sport what have you. I am really Blessed to be able to mingle with folks whom fly. I dreamed of this my whole life and wasted 3/4 of it land locked.
Next time you have a drink of your favorite Beverage make a toast for me in the name of aviation, also lets not forget folks like the names we just posted for it really is because of them we are here arguing over..Aviation in its simplest forum....

Tony

[Mayhemxpc]

For better or worse, aviators are not your average individual. Slavish adherence to all of the rules can get you killed. Doing stupid stuff that the rules attempt to prohibit can get you killed. Most of us live in that middle ground where we learn to do what makes sense for the flight operation in progress.




Wes
N78PS

Well, that was kind of what I meant in my post. I had to teach that hazardous attitude material (which unsurprisingly came from Oklahoma City) in Civil Air Patrol Flight Instructor Clinics. I always had to change the material to accommodate reality. Any notion that one should blindly follow the rules (or obey directives from ATC) because they are usually right should not be let near an airplane. Anyone you does not have the attitude of "I can do it" (which the FAA defined as Macho) will never solo and for sure I do not want him or her as PIC in an emergency. Impulsivity? There is a place for that, too, when you respond to something in your gut that just doesn't feel right. (I am not talking about spatial disorientation.) I provided the Aristotelean adage of "moderation in all things." Wes' statement of "that middle ground" is like another adage, "There is a mean in all things; and, moreover, certain limits on either side of which right cannot be found." (Horace). The challenge is determining where those "limits" lie.

Sorry for being long. It is a Sunday morning, and I am waiting for the sun to warm things up enough so I can touch the metal of my airplane.

Chris Mayer
N424AF

[eiclan]

I used to in past life teach people to ride motorcycles and the advice I used to give them I will put here.When you get up in the morning to ride ,and in this case fly,something or someone will try and kill you today.It is your roll,if you choose to accept it,to see it coming and negate the situation.It is all about practice,remembering that practice makes permanent.So evaluate what you do and make good decisions. Cheers Ross

[Skyhook]

I used to in past life teach people to ride motorcycles and the advice I used to give them I will put here.When you get up in the morning to ride ,and in this case fly,something or someone will try and kill you today.It is your roll,if you choose to accept it,to see it coming and negate the situation.It is all about practice,remembering that practice makes permanent.So evaluate what you do and make good decisions. Cheers Ross

I, too, taught motorcycle safety for the Motor Safety Foundation for about twenty years and what you posted is something I also said, more or less.

WILU's comment RE: LSD "flyers" made me smile and nod in agreement. Well said.

[I_FLY_LOW]

Is this a bad attitude?
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/228/476006428_22876e8fcb_z.jpg?zz=1

[Mike Switzer]

I agree with many of the comments here. However, speaking as a licensed mechanical engineer, one point I would like to stress is that some rules are there for a reason. Failure to follow certain accepted practices with regard to design and or maintenance will most likely get someone killed.

[Mike Switzer]

Is this a bad attitude?
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/228/476006428_22876e8fcb_z.jpg?zz=1

Depends on the condition of your circulatory system. I couldn't maintain that attitude for very long. :)

[WLIU]

" Failure to follow certain accepted practices..."

Gravity - not just a good idea. Its the law.

And from the movie "the Right Stuff", they put words into Alan Shepard's mouth that he never really said, but I still use it them my aerobatic safety presentation.

Shepard's prayer - Dear God, please don't let me F@#& up!

Could not resist some humor.

Wes

[Cary]

The article itself is not extreme--it actually cautions against extremism. And Bob Rossier, its author, isn't a desk-flyer. He is a current flight instructor, writes about flight instruction, dives, instructs diving, writes about diving. You don't have to agree with everything he says, but he has aviation credits greater than many of us: ATP MEL & SEL, Comm SES, CFII SE & ME, Advanced and Instrument Ground. I suggest a careful re-read of the article for what it does say, not what it doesn't.

Oh, disclaimer: I don't know Bob Rossier, but I've read a lot of his articles. I don't always agree with him, but most of the time, he has valuable advice.

Cary

[1600vw]

The article itself is not extreme--it actually cautions against extremism. And Bob Rossier, its author, isn't a desk-flyer. He is a current flight instructor, writes about flight instruction, dives, instructs diving, writes about diving. You don't have to agree with everything he says, but he has aviation credits greater than many of us: ATP MEL & SEL, Comm SES, CFII SE & ME, Advanced and Instrument Ground. I suggest a careful re-read of the article for what it does say, not what it doesn't.

Oh, disclaimer: I don't know Bob Rossier, but I've read a lot of his articles. I don't always agree with him, but most of the time, he has valuable advice.
Cary

Good advice....Myself I read this when I first started flying ultralights. I spent every min looking through things like this. You did not find me wasting time on boards like this chatting but reading. I was always told, want to learn something shut your mouth and open your ears. So I do try and listen before opening mouth.

What would be really nice is to have a group of articles a new pilot or someone just getting into flying should read. Maybe should is not the right word. But you get the idea. I had all these sites all bookmarked then my hard drive took a dump and I lost it all. Its funny how one time you can find something, but then go back and try and find it again and its gone. But I know its not gone I just can't find it, frustrating.

This is a good read though, makes one look at oneself. I found myself in a lot of different places as I read.

Tony

[WLIU]

I will suggest that Mr Rossier is simply repeating material generated within the FAA bureaucracy by someone with far less credentials than the ones you cite. I always hope that pilots with lots of alphabet soup after their names and apparently weighty logbooks can do better than quote a party line. After all, those ratings and hours should allow the author to add real value to the discussion.

Out in the real world of aviation, you would be surprised by how extreme very accomplished pilots are when measured by the scale offered in the article. Shrinking violets don't land on glaciers, spray crops, fly helicopters hundred of miles offshore, and win world aerobatic championships to offer a few examples.

An article about the real personality traits of pilots would be a lot more interesting than an article about the way that pilots "are supposed to be." Would probably not be politically correct though.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

Myself I believe all new pilots need to learn all they can not only about aviation but about why they are whom they are or what makes them do the things and think the way they do. All new pilots I mean new never been in aviation or around aviation I believe benefit from reading things like this.
The NTSB is another place I hung out at a lot reading all I could on others mistakes. What I found doing this is. Just because one has hundreds if not thousands of hrs logged this will not protect you from the ill fated flight. Many a pilot with hundreds or thousands of hrs have spun aircraft in in the pattern and other places. Pilots with thousands of hrs have been known to fly into the earth and never know it.

Flying you better bring your A game or stay on the ground.

Tony

[WLIU]

Well, one interesting aspect of experience is whether it includes both depth as well as breadth. We see a lot of recreational pilots who essentially fly the same hour 100 times. Fly out to lunch on a nice day and come home. Nothing wrong with that but when giving weight to that experience the narrowness of it matters. Even airline pilots often simply fly the same flight 1000 times. Thats what they are supposed to do. It is supposed to be repetitive and routine.

Then there are folks who do a whole lot of different things once. We see that in aviation where a pilot has a bunch of ratings but no further experience. For example, I have a SES rating but only about 15 hours behind it. So while perhaps my putting SES on my resume signals that I work at broadening my aeronautical knowledge, it actually does not mean that I know a lot more than you might. Add 100 hours and that rating will mean more in my resume.

I will suggest that the guys who have 3 or 4 ratings backed by many hundreds or thousands of hours going different places or flying different aircraft are the ones that you want to listen to at the bar when they are coaxed into talking. I once flew for a while with a gentleman who had spent 15,000 hours in flight test at Pratt and Whitney. On the street you wouldn't give Paul a second look. Looked like the building custodian. But I learned a huge amount in a short time listening to him talk about the real world of aviation when we got him to talk. And no FAA nice talk.

Your mileage may vary,

Wes
N78PS