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flyrite
10-25-2013, 04:41 AM
Oct 22 at 4:27 PM
This is an e-mail that I've sent to the magazine . I thought it goes hand in hand with the Civa Knowns that are being looked at on another thread .
My hope is that the following will be posted in the magazine .

With apologies to the membership, I would like to reexamine an old issue that has been beat to death amongst the members, but I believe still deserves some attention to keep the competition as fair as we possibly can for all concerned!

I'm referring to the horsepower & airframe advantages that some have over others in the higher categories. With an understanding that there is no way to completely eliminate the disparity, I still believe there's a lot that can be done at the contest level to even the playing field!

First off let me explain the disparity as I see it. I fly the advanced category in a small winged stock 180 HP "One Design". The little bird probably has a slight airframe advantage over a pitts but is considerably heavier at 950 lbs.

Now us heavy 1D & pitts guys, we don't like to complain but when you get to a contest on a "HOT DAY" after having practiced the CIVA influenced known & figuring how to minimize the advantages that are obviously going to be slanted to the big 6 cyl.s, as well as to the larger wing areas.

We do well in the known & free only to get thrown an unknown that no reasonable person would argue is a fair fight between pilots. Due to the advantages of airframe & HP flying a sequence that is an energy eater especially
in the last few figures of the sequence!

Some will say ...Oh you can get thru that in a stock pitts or 1D and I'm sure that's probably true...but what is also true is that you can get thru it much easier in a higher HP monowing or even a 6 cyl biplane than in the little 4 bangers!

Whats discouraging for me is to be well positioned after 2 flights to take the overall & then get to the unknown & know that I'll have to extract every last once of performance out of my little mount just to keep from having a low called!

Then I get to watch the 6 cyl. guys buzz thru with no altitude issues at all knowing that he's not having to work nearly as hard to get thru the sequence as I am. Please don't think I fault the other pilots, I've considered buying a more capable plane myself just to keep up! So you ask ....well what would be your suggestion for evening the playing field at the regional level to fix this?

I'm glad you asked and here it is...get all the altitude eating figures at the beginning of the sequence. Make it as difficult as you like in the first 1/2 to 2/3's of the sequence then stop with the "energy/altitude eaters"! It almost seems as though the organizers purposely are thinking to themselves ...."hey these little 4 bangers are really going to be sweating altitude by about the last 1/4 of the flight" lets see how they do.

Now that would be ok if everybody were at least close in airframe & HP performance .....But" My GOSH GUYS" ..Do you really think it's fair to the guy who's practiced his heart out to get past the already "Biased CIVA known" to throw him an equally "Biased CIVA Unknown"? No doubt we might get thru it but would anybody really try & make the argument that it's a fair fight for the little guy?

I truly don't expect the IAC leadership to change their direction on this issue. My plea is not to the leadership for this argument is as old almost as the organization itself. (Go back & read Frank Christiensens and others exchange with Mike Heuer in the December 1987 issue of sport aerobatics)!

Oh well there's my case ...It's an old argument that's been made many times before by a lot better & smarter pilots than me thru the years . As I said my appeal is to the organizers at the contests for I believe the IAC is like a lot of the Washington crowd .....they must live in a bubble ...because for all the claims of wanting to keep the "Grassroots & Little Guy" in the loop we've continued down the same path to where we are now !

In closing and to the last point about the path we're on, when I left the sport in 02 there were at least a recognition of this disparity by there being rules as to what was AWAC legal & what was not. I won't try & recall them all here but at least there were attempts at making it more fair......I returned to the sport the beginning of 2012 & found all rules were gone.

I was lucky enough to jump back in at my first 3 contests & be flying against not only more difficult figures than were allowed when I left (outside rollers) ....but now I'm competing against a Past "World Aerobatic Champion" flying the same plane he won the WAC in.....As well as a lot more unlimited capable planes!

No sour grapes here. I know the reason the past champ was back in advanced. I bring it up only because it illustrates the point well. I appreciate his attempts to help the team. I enjoyed the challenge & it made me a better pilot as well as it was all the AWAC team trying to get ready to go to the championships across the seas & get schooled on CIVA Rules & judging .

So all you guys out there putting on the contests ...Please remember us little guys & if you don't agree with my assessment ....Lets at least acknowledge the "Elephant in the room" and quit acting as if he's not there, because his old stinky behind is usually in the little guys face & just like the disparity in flying these unknowns...it really stinks!



Sincerely

Tony Zorn
IAC#24372

WLIU
10-25-2013, 07:27 AM
Hello Tony,

I suggest that sending the note to the magazine is a round-a-bout way to get to the committee that writes the unknowns. I suggest that you send your note directly to Brian Howard, Chair of the IAC Rules Committee. Brian's e-mail address is in the back of the magazine. Brian has always been very responsive when asked questions.

That said, Brian pleads every year, through the Acro Exploder, for members to send him candidate Unknown Programs. IAC never intended that a small committee generate all of the Unknown Programs every year. Submission by members, using the list of allowable figures in the back of the rule book, is encouraged. So please take a look at Appendix 3 and sketch a flight program up using your favorite drawing tool. Get all of your friends to draw up candidates also. And my understanding is that Unknown Programs are intended to strain the pilot's brain more than the aircraft structure. Figures that involve vertical lines in the middle of the box with figure exits on a different axis than the entry axis are encouraged to give pilots and opportunity to make a mental error and go the wrong way, thus accumulating zeroes.

Hope to see you at the box next season.

Wes
N78PS

Martin Price
10-25-2013, 02:03 PM
I'd echo Wes' comment. Flying a stock S-2B I've definitely had the feeling I'm having to work harder than I would in a monster monoplane but against that

- I'm still very much the limiting factor on my own scores (that's just me - your mileage may vary)

- the Unknowns come from a pool maintained by Brian, who indeed has to beg for submissions, and I know of at least one very experienced Pitts pilot who submits Unknowns that will twist your brain into knots without coming close to the limits of a lower powered airplane.

I actually asked Brian directly about this after my very first ever (Intermediate) Unknown which started with a figure that would have been extremely challenging in a grassroots airplane. I was just interested in how the process works. He sent quite a lengthy and thoughtful response which fundamentally boiled down to the fact that he applies common sense judgement to submitted sequences, based on his own knowledge and experience and noting that he does regularly drop submissions that are only flyable by Edges, and that the best thing we can do is submit our own brain-twisters to improve the pool of sequences he has to draw on.

With the latest online drawing tools it's actually very easy to put together and modify sequences so I'd recommend giving it a shot. I plan to do the same.

-Martin

flyrite
10-25-2013, 07:56 PM
Thanks for the information on who to contact guys I will make sure to make some offers of my own for next year .

ssmdive
04-14-2014, 02:38 PM
I honestly think the IAC does not care.
Sure people will claim I am wrong, but the fact is the IAC claims a 7ECA can 'do' sportsman. OK, sure it might be able to 'do' it. But it has zero chance in getting good scores. Everyone I talked to told me that to even do sportsman I was going to have to take my little ECA right up to redline on both speed and RPM. I am just not willing to do that... Not willing to trash a nice plane to chase after a 3.99 medal. Yet a guy who can afford it, can show up in an MX or Extra and compete in Primary.

The day I showed up at my first competition in a ECA and was competing against 4 guys in Pitts specials... Well, that showed me that it is an arms race just as much as the ability to fly. It has been made perfectly clear by many people that each and every class you move to has airplanes that can just barely do the maneuvers and the only option is to buy a better plane or accept you will get your ass kicked and fight your best.

I get competition, selecting the team to compete at the World level for the Country. But the majority of people who would like to fly some competitions have zero interest/ability in going that far.

The sad thing is I think there are only 2500 dues paying members of the IAC. An organization that small should be able to make changes - If they wanted to make changes. I can tell you that the next competition in my area.... I already have plans to be somewhere else on those days.

RetroAcro
04-14-2014, 04:00 PM
I honestly think the IAC does not care.
Sure people will claim I am wrong, but the fact is the IAC claims a 7ECA can 'do' sportsman. OK, sure it might be able to 'do' it. But it has zero chance in getting good scores. Everyone I talked to told me that to even do sportsman I was going to have to take my little ECA right up to redline on both speed and RPM. I am just not willing to do that... Not willing to trash a nice plane to chase after a 3.99 medal. Yet a guy who can afford it, can show up in an MX or Extra and compete in Primary.

You must realize that as a 7ECA owner with an interest in competing IN THIS AIRPLANE, you are an extreme minority. Even among 7KCAB (inverted systems) owners, something like 5 out of 250 registered airplanes are involved in competition. I looked it up once. A 7KCAB can win (and has won) at the Sportsman level. These "benchmark" airplanes for each category are intended to simply be able to fly the sequence. This is different from the liklihood of getting 10's on each figure. The Known sequences from the past 20 years are posted on the IAC site. If you take a look, you'll see that Sportsman has changed very little, if any. It has (and still does) consist of very basic figures. What changes to the average Sportsman sequence would you propose so that your 7ECA would be as competitive as a Pitts or Extra? Unless we somehow relax the judging criteria to allow for egg-shaped loops and positive G barrel rolls, I can't think of much you could do.


The day I showed up at my first competition in a ECA and was competing against 4 guys in Pitts specials... Well, that showed me that it is an arms race just as much as the ability to fly. It has been made perfectly clear by many people that each and every class you move to has airplanes that can just barely do the maneuvers and the only option is to buy a better plane or accept you will get your ass kicked and fight your best.

You can buy some Pitts S-1's cheaper than a 7ECA. People with serious aerobatic interest just tend not to fly 7ECA's as their primary acro plane (for long). Yes, every category has performance requirements. You won't see a Stearman in Advanced or Unlimited. That's the whole point of the category structure.


I get competition, selecting the team to compete at the World level for the Country. But the majority of people who would like to fly some competitions have zero interest/ability in going that far.

The sad thing is I think there are only 2500 dues paying members of the IAC. An organization that small should be able to make changes - If they wanted to make changes. I can tell you that the next competition in my area.... I already have plans to be somewhere else on those days.

There are about 3000, not that this is a huge number. You have expressed your gripes that it's hard for your particular airplane to be as competitive as all the other aircraft types typically found at contests. But you have not articulated exactly what you expect to "change", or how you'd propose changing it.

I guarantee you that the viability of IAC does not hinge on its ability to make J-3 Cubs, Stearmans, and 7ECA's highly competitive mounts. Look at the RV population. About 8,000 airplanes out there that are perfectly able to win at the Sportsman level, and about 3 per year compete. People who really have enough interest in competing will do it. Those who wish for it to be made convenient for them and their particular airplane should they, on the offchance, feel like coming to a contest rather than playing golf again some weekend are not the ones that will sustain IAC.

In Advanced my little Pitts S-1S struggles at times, and is not as competitive as an MX, but I still have fun doing it. And in Primary and Sportsman, a 7KCAB Citabria can beat an Extra. The airplane does not do it for you. Lots of people seem to think that high performance planes make it so easy. Competition is about accuracy of vertical and 45 lines, roundness of looping sections, rolling without deviating from a flight path, equal length lines with rolls, stopping spins on heading, staying on heading, staying in the box, presenting your flight well, among many other things in the higher categories. These are mostly pilot factors, not aircraft factors.

ssmdive
04-14-2014, 04:35 PM
What changes to the average Sportsman sequence would you propose so that your 7ECA would be as competitive as a Pitts or Extra?

Maybe the key is to not allow an Extra in Primary. You do not have Indy cars at NASCAR races. I am not claiming to know the answers... Just telling you that it is pretty clear from my very limited experience that a good number of IAC'ers think the answer to a guy like me is "buy a new plane or go away, if you want it you will do it".

Even if that is not the 'official' stance.... The fact that the impression is felt is enough to justify me making the claim.


You can buy some Pitts S-1's cheaper than a 7ECA.

And people with zero tailwheel time are not advised to buy an S1S as their first TW plane. It *can* be done, but like the 7ECA in Sportsman it is not a great idea.


But you have not articulated exactly what you expect to "change", or how you'd propose changing it.

Being new I don't know a lot. But one example is not letting unlimited aircraft in Primary. Another might not be allowing a guy that competed at a World meet to compete in a lower class. You don't see Michael Jordan being allowed to play High School ball. Another might be giving classes of aircraft standards.... You can't expect a 7ECA to do a perfect roll, so don't expect perfect - Expect perfect for an ECA.


I guarantee you that the viability of IAC does not hinge on its ability to make J-3 Cubs, Stearmans, and 7ECA's highly competitive mounts. Look at the RV population.

The IAC should be concerned with its viability. 3000 people out of a population of 330M is not statistically significant. If there is a single accident bad enough to start a ground swell against aerobatics, 3000 people will not even be a speed bump to slow down laws limiting the ability to fly acro.


About 8,000 airplanes out there that are perfectly able to win at the Sportsman level, and about 3 per year compete. People who really have enough interest in competing will do it

And there is the "buy a better plane".


Those who wish for it to be made convenient for them and their particular airplane should they, on the offchance, feel like coming to a contest rather than playing golf again some weekend are not the ones that will sustain IAC.

And there is the 'go away'. I submit that you need to get those people off the golf course at least once to get them to try aerobatics.... The fact that even the 'known' programs are password protected on the IAC site tells me that the IAC does not care that much about trying to pull people in.


And in Primary and Sportsman, a 7KCAB Citabria can beat an Extra

Planes are not equal. It maybe CAN be done, but that would be like saying a guy with a noodle might win a knife fight - I mean it could happen. Statistically the chances are insignificant.


These are mostly pilot factors, not aircraft factors.

I've flown an Extra. I'd easily kick my own ass in my ECA in sportsman if I had an Extra. The pilot being equal, the better plane will win - This is not something that should really be in dispute. That the sequences are designed in a way that favors certain types should not be in much dispute either.

No, I don't know the answers. I can only tell you that the prevalent attitude I have gotten is "buy a better plane, or go away". Some times I wonder why I even voice my opinion on the topic since I know the answer I will get.

RetroAcro
04-14-2014, 05:58 PM
Maybe the key is to not allow an Extra in Primary. You do not have Indy cars at NASCAR races. I am not claiming to know the answers... Just telling you that it is pretty clear from my very limited experience that a good number of IAC'ers think the answer to a guy like me is "buy a new plane or go away, if you want it you will do it".

Even if that is not the 'official' stance.... The fact that the impression is felt is enough to justify me making the claim.

I must be blunt - you are making a lot of judgments and jumping to many conclusions based on very little experience. If you want to prohibit Extras in Primary, you might as well prohibit Decathlons. I imagine you're still not convinced of what I wrote above about high-performance airplanes not doing it for you, but an Extra really has no advantage over a Decathlon in Primary and Sportsman. I promise you a pilot who does not have the skill do do well in Primary or Sportsman in a Decathlon will not do any better in an Extra.

And nobody will ever tell you, or want you to "go away". We enjoy seeing different, lower-performing airplanes at contests. It's a break from watching all the Pitts' and Extras. I've seen Stearmans, Clipped Cubs, and Clipped T-Crafts at contests - all with no inverted systems. They actually did decent and had lots of fun. You may think it takes heroic skill to fly a low-performance, non-inverted system airplane well in competition. It doesn't. It takes fundamental aerobatic skills. If you have good fundamental aerobatic skills, it doesn't matter what airplane you're flying, as long as the airplane has the initial capability. Nobody will expect a Lancair to do well at a STOL contest, and the best aerobatic pilot in the world will not get a Curtis Jenny to score well even in Primary. Airplanes are on a continuum. Your 7ECA is just one airplane on that continuum of performance.


And people with zero tailwheel time are not advised to buy an S1S as their first TW plane. It *can* be done, but like the 7ECA in Sportsman it is not a great idea.

It's just an airplane. It just takes proper training and diligence. I have a few friends who bought a Pitts with zero tailwheel time. Took them about 20 hrs to get competent, but it can be done.


Being new I don't know a lot. But one example is not letting unlimited aircraft in Primary. Another might not be allowing a guy that competed at a World meet to compete in a lower class. You don't see Michael Jordan being allowed to play High School ball. Another might be giving classes of aircraft standards.... You can't expect a 7ECA to do a perfect roll, so don't expect perfect - Expect perfect for an ECA.

The first half of what you describe just doesn't happen. And even if it did, this is totally unrelated to your perceived gripe about IAC. And regarding allowing "leeway" for lower-performing airplanes, this is a slippery slope to the complete elimination of any judging criteria whatsoever.


The IAC should be concerned with its viability....And there is the 'go away'. I submit that you need to get those people off the golf course at least once to get them to try aerobatics.... The fact that even the 'known' programs are password protected on the IAC site tells me that the IAC does not care that much about trying to pull people in.

Believe me, IAC is concerned about its own future. The general pilot population is diminishing. So has IAC. Have you ever been to an EAA meeting? It's 95% gray hairs...not that I mean that in a derogatory fashion. It's the economics of it all. It's about people being exposed to, and developing serious aerobatic interest. There are many difficult problems. IAC cannot wave a magic want and start fixing these problems. I've love to see more Stearmans, 7ECA's, and Clipped Cubs at contests, but I firmly believe that making drastic changes to get a handful of these pilots to show up to a contest, when they would not have otherwise, is not the answer. I guarantee you we are truly talking just a handful of pilots. There really are not many folks like you with 7ECA's hinging their involvement with competition acro on IAC making it easier for them. Pilots of these airplanes in general just aren't interested in this. It's not that IAC tells these pilots to "go away", it's that these pilots just don't really care in the first place.


Planes are not equal. It maybe CAN be done, but that would be like saying a guy with a noodle might win a knife fight - I mean it could happen. Statistically the chances are insignificant.

How could you know anything about the statistical likelihood of a pilot with some basic competence in a 7KCAB scoring higher than a pilot in an Extra in Primary when you admit you don't know much and have very little experience with this stuff? If you spent some time perusing the contests results, you might see some interesting things.


I've flown an Extra. I'd easily kick my own ass in my ECA in sportsman if I had an Extra. The pilot being equal, the better plane will win - This is not something that should really be in dispute. That the sequences are designed in a way that favors certain types should not be in much dispute either.

You are right in that the sequences are designed to favor certain types of airplanes - those with inverted systems. If you do not have inverted systems, you are handicapped in low powered, slow rolling airplanes. I don't know of anyone who would say otherwise. The whole reason inverted systems exist is to allow airplanes to fly the types of figures you'd see in competition. The 7ECA is not much more aerobatic than a 172. But if you had a Decathlon, you'd be wrong if you thought you'd necessarily do any better in an Extra.


No, I don't know the answers. I can only tell you that the prevalent attitude I have gotten is "buy a better plane, or go away". Some times I wonder why I even voice my opinion on the topic since I know the answer I will get.

I have been around IACers long enough to know that 99% of them would not tell you to go away unless they were just tired of hearing your negativity and complaining....if that happens to be the case with you. In my experience, IACers are very welcoming of all types of pilots and airplanes. A 7ECA is not unheard of. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. I don't know who you hung around, or the attitudes or responses you observed, but in my experience, it is what you make it. After awhile, it becomes less about the actual flying, and trying to do well, as it does the camaraderie and the friends you make.

WLIU
04-14-2014, 08:14 PM
I will suggest that if you want to enjoy aerobatic competition, you have to begin with the idea that the purpose is to fly better today than you did yesterday, and fly even better tomorrow. And you have to like hanging out with guys trying to do the same. Like golf, we don't really fly against each other, we really fly against the last score we posted and how well we did yesterday. I can not change your score, nor you mine. I can only go out and try to post a new personal best score. Against that backdrop I can have fun flying any airplane at a contest and pick the category based on what the airplane can do. And have fun.

I fly a Pitts because I get satisfaction from the challenge of bringing my "A" game to every hop. Pilots with too low amounts of appropriate tailwheel time actually typically don't get into a Pitts simply because their insurance company won't let them or they choke on the quote for coverage. On the other hand, I have met a number of low time pilots who flew Pitts. I even knew a student pilot who flew an S-1C. Never got the nerve to ask which CFI signed him off. And I presume that they either paid the higher insurance premiums or went without insurance.

Citabrias are great because you can load them up and go to the beach, or you can toss all of the extra gear out and go do loops and rolls. And when you do acro, they make you fly through every figure. No getting lazy at the stick. Yes a Citabria can fly Sportsman. Will the pilot have to fill in for the performance that it gives up to Pitts and Extras? Absolutely! But if you bring yours to a contest I can assure you that no one on the Judges Line is saying "Oh its just a Citabria" as you dive into the box. The Judges will be waiting to see if the guy flying can do that "pilot stuff" and make the airplane dance across the box.

Competition is hard. Its supposed to be. No getting around it. Only the guys who bring their best stuff, make it all work that day, and maybe have a little luck on their side get to take home a trophy. The rest look at what they flubbed and go home to practice for next time. Competitors are by definition people who do not accept that one contest defines their skill level. They go home and work on showing up at the next contest ready to post a higher score. They persist because the journey is important. The trophy sitting at the podium can be bought at the store for maybe $35. But a competitor will spend many times that amount to build the skills and experience that might allow them to take that trophy home at the end of a contest. And we arrive at a contest knowing that all of our "friends" have been working just as hard.

IAC is an organization of competitors and people who like competition. In an aviation population of mostly guys (and gals) who mostly fly to breakfast or to vacation, the number of folks who look for competition will always be small. If you want a comparison, how many pilots race a Reno each September? IAC is bigger than that! The challenge for IAC is to get more pilots interested in aerobatics under the umbrella of IAC, even if those pilots don't ever compete. IAC has not figured out how to reach the numbers of people that it needs, but I will offer the suggestion that making the competition easier won't bring in more members.

Now my chapter has been scratching our head about the folks who can not commit a 4 day weekend to a contest. And IAC at the national level has been willing to work with us, so we have tried a one day, one category contest. Have not done it enough to figure out if our pilots will really participate in larger numbers. But chapters can try different types of contest formats so long as the basic IAC rules are followed.

So you dance with the airplane that you bring. Come and fly your ship to 100% of what it will do and impress the Judges. A good flight will get good scores.

See you at the box,

Wes
N78PS

ssmdive
04-14-2014, 08:23 PM
I must be blunt - you are making a lot of judgments and jumping to many conclusions based on very little experience........ How could you know anything about the statistical likelihood of a pilot with some basic competence in a 7KCAB scoring higher than a pilot in an Extra in Primary when you admit you don't know much and have very little experience with this stuff? If you spent some time perusing the contests results, you might see some interesting things.

Now who is jumping to conclusions? You know nothing about my professional life, what I do 8ish hours a day for 20+ years.

But since you know so much more than me, when was the last time a 7ECA placed in Sportsman at the nationals? When was the last time a 7ECA won primary at the nationals? You claim I have not done my research, provide your data.


I have been around IACers long enough to know that 99% of them would not tell you to go away unless they were just tired of hearing your negativity and complaining....if that happens to be the case with you. In my experience, IACers are very welcoming of all types of pilots and airplanes. A 7ECA is not unheard of. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. I don't know who you hung around, or the attitudes or responses you observed, but in my experience, it is what you make it. After awhile, it becomes less about the actual flying, and trying to do well, as it does the camaraderie and the friends you make.

A good number of members have been great. But I have also run into the ones talk down to me..... Often when people lack the facts to support their position they insult the opponent while avoiding data driven discussions. They also tend to try and move the goalposts. Such as changing the point of discussion from the topic to something that is not able to be supported by data. This was a discussion about airplane performance in classes..... Specifically, how some rounds are designed to favor the higher performance aircraft, but I brought how some aircraft are at a disadvantage even in some classes.

I have seen this happen before, and I am seeing it again. Shame on me for trying to have a discussion about a topic that interests me.

Edit: Wes, to your point I agree. You pay your money and do the best you can, trying to beat your own scores. And yes, in the end it is about the people, not the scores.

But it when the image projected is that to have a chance you have to buy a plane you don't have..... The sport will not grow. You will not get the 8k RV's to give it a try. If you keep saying you don't care about the guy that has to decide between golf and aerobatics.... Then you just push the golfer away showing you don't care.

WLIU
04-15-2014, 07:03 AM
"A good number of members have been great. But I have also run into the ones talk down to me....."

Well, you run into this in any sport. I have competed in fencing, skydiving, and aerobatics. I hang out with the "good" guys and ignore the jerks.

My experience is that there are a LOT of accomplished competitors who will answer questions and offer encouragement. My personal list of pilots who have offered advice and encouragement include Mike Goulian (Unlimited National Champion), Rob Holland (Unlimited National Champion), John Morrissey (US Team Trainer and coach, IAC Advanced National Champion), Nikolai Timofeev (coach and unlimited competitor), Linda-Meyers Morrissey (unlimited competitor), Dennis Sawyer (IAC Advanced National Champion) just to start the list. All I did was ask politely and listen and I received a huge amount of help. All for free. I hope that my flying reflects the good advice that I have been given.

So ignore the jerks and hang out with the good guys.

And if you have not gone to an IAC Judges School, do so. You can't post a good score unless you know how and why the judges are grading your figures. And then find an IAC chapter and go to practice days. Leo Loudenslager famously said that if you are not getting critiqued you are just burning gas and having fun. And if your local IAC chapter isn't organizing acro practice days, do it yourself. I did. So now I have my own FAA waivered box and I can fly acro at contest altitudes with a critiquer any weekend I want to. Oh course since I made that stuff happen they made me be an IAC chapter president for 5 1/2 years, but that is another story.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

RetroAcro
04-15-2014, 07:50 AM
Now who is jumping to conclusions? You know nothing about my professional life, what I do 8ish hours a day for 20+ years.

I was only basing my conclusion on your statement, "Being new, I don't know a lot".


But since you know so much more than me, when was the last time a 7ECA placed in Sportsman at the nationals? When was the last time a 7ECA won primary at the nationals? You claim I have not done my research, provide your data.

I'm still unclear what your major gripe is. Do you take issue with the fact that you once heard that Sportsman sequences should be flyable in a 7ECA, even though it's unlikely a 7ECA will actually win? Did you buy a 7ECA specifically for competition purposes after reading this? Were you disappointed later to find out that aircraft without inverted systems will have trouble competing with aircraft with inverted systems? Nobody has ever said, or will say that a 7ECA has a good chance of winning in Sportsman, at Nationals or otherwise...only that it must be "flyable".

If you feel the major problem with IAC is that the competition structure does not make it easy for stock J-3 Cubs, 7ECA's, and Stearman type aircraft, I would propose this. Out of all 899 7ECA's in the registry, see how many you can convince to come to a contest in any particular region. I'd be happy to run a one-day "one design" contest for non-inverted system Citabria pilots. Other chapters may as well. Ten pilots would make it worthwhile. I truly don't believe there are significant numbers of Citabria pilots out there waiting on IAC to make it easier for them before showing genuine interest and commitment to the sport. Again, out of all the inverted-system 7KCAB pilots in the country, you can count on one hand the number of these folks across the country who are involved. And they have an airplane that can definitely compete with any other airplane (and win) Primary or Sportsman. You can find them in the contest results. They are not being held back. I would love to be proven wrong on this point. I would love to have a coalition of Citabria pilots contact me saying a bunch of them would like to come to a contest, "one design" with a custom sequence or otherwise. I would put in effort to accommodate them.


A good number of members have been great. But I have also run into the ones talk down to me...But it when the image projected is that to have a chance you have to buy a plane you don't have..... The sport will not grow. You will not get the 8k RV's to give it a try. If you keep saying you don't care about the guy that has to decide between golf and aerobatics.... Then you just push the golfer away showing you don't care.

As Wes suggested, you'll run into a small percentage of jerks no matter what activity you get into. That's life. Aviation/aerobatics is no different. You can't let them hold you back.

WeaverJ3Cub
04-23-2014, 12:01 AM
Being new I don't know a lot. But one example is not letting unlimited aircraft in Primary. Another might not be allowing a guy that competed at a World meet to compete in a lower class. You don't see Michael Jordan being allowed to play High School ball. Another might be giving classes of aircraft standards.... You can't expect a 7ECA to do a perfect roll, so don't expect perfect - Expect perfect for an ECA.

I'm totally out of my depth entering into this conversation given that I have never competed, but that comment just irritates me. Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub. I personally saw a guy (who shall remain nameless) completely flunk that same category flying an Extra 300. It was amazingly bad. Like everyone has said...it is the pilot, NOT the plane. Sure, it is easier in an Extra, but it is possible in an ECA.

And on your comment on the ECA not doing a perfect roll...I'm not sure that's true. I know my instructor can do a mighty good slow roll in a 7KCAB, if that means anything. Any comments from the experts?

EDIT: Some examples: http://www.usnationalaerobatics.org/IAC/IAC_ContestResults.asp?ContestID=430

ssmdive
04-23-2014, 06:29 AM
I'm totally out of my depth entering into this conversation given that I have never competed, , but that comment just irritates me.

Then may I suggest you enter a competition so you will have experience to form an educated opinion? It makes little sense to get irritated about a subject you admit to have no experience with.


Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub.

And Dale Earnhart Jr. would most likely beat the majority of drivers in any car. Bob Hoover can 8 point roll a commuter twin, Tex Johnson rolled a 707, and Patty Wagstaff can loop a Cessna better than I can loop a Pitts. Using the cream of the crop to justify your opinion is a distraction from the topic.... They are not the target for sportsman sequences.


it is the pilot, NOT the plane. Sure, it is easier in an Extra, but it is possible in an ECA.

If it is possible, then please provide the dates that an ECA has medaled at the nationals... I mean if it is possible, then surely it has been done a few times? That is the proof it is possible, not just giving an opinion.


And on your comment on the ECA not doing a perfect roll...I'm not sure that's true. I know my instructor can do a mighty good slow roll in a 7KCAB, if that means anything. Any comments from the experts?

And was this roll in front of a panel of judges, or just your opinion? Did you observe the roll from the ground or in the plane? Because I thought I was doing pretty good rolls till I flew in front of a coach for the first time. Then I was told I was doing them all wrong. My wife ridding in back thought they were perfect when I did them with her as well - The judges did not agree with me or her.

Also, a 7KCAB has an additional 40-70 HP and more importantly has inverted fuel and oil systems. Have you ever flown a plane without inverted systems while inverted? My ECA takes about 6 seconds to do a 'gentleman's ' roll - one where you stay slightly positive and have an arc. Well, that is nowhere close to a good competition roll. In a competition roll you have to maintain altitude through the roll. This requires top rudder, inverted push on the elevator (when the engine will die), and then top rudder again. Takes about 7 seconds and the engine is dead for two seconds. It is quite difficult to maintain altitude with a dead engine and a flat bottom wing while keeping speed to keep a constant roll rate.

Have YOU ever flown a flat bottom winged, non-inverted system airplane while inverted? If not, then I respectively submit that you do not have the experience to make an educated judgement about how possible it is, much less be 'irritated' at someone's opinion who HAS done it.

But again, you keep claiming it is possible.... So let's discount your opinion and my opinion and again I will ask....

If it is possible, then surely it has been done before. So please, provide the data that shows a 7ECA has placed in sportsman at the Nationals.

edit: To your example.

1. It is not a nationals. It is a chapter meet.
2. The plane in primary is a casutt racer, not an ECA.
3. The plane in Sportsman is an 8KCAB (Super D). Inverted fuel and oil, symmetrical wing, faster roll rate, 70 more HP.

I have flown both a 7ECA and 8KCAB. Have you? The 8KCAB is a much more capable plane even in my hands.

WeaverJ3Cub
04-23-2014, 11:09 AM
Woah, woah, woah...hold on there.

I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. I have flown basic aerobatics and I have worked the judges line at competition. I don't have to be Rob Holland to be able to be irritated or say that you're wrong.


And Dale Earnhart Jr. would most likely beat the majority of drivers in any car. Bob Hoover can 8 point roll a commuter twin, Tex Johnson rolled a 707, and Patty Wagstaff can loop a Cessna better than I can loop a Pitts. Using the cream of the crop to justify your opinion is a distraction from the topic.... They are not the target for sportsman sequences.

Then...you prove everyone's point. It's the pilot not the plane.

From all this it sounds like you're basically upset that someone can't show up with minimal practice and ability and medal in a 37hp J-2 Cub (yes, some exaggeration). As others have said, there's no way that you can make every category winnable by every airplane. Plus, you're talking about Nationals for Pete's sake. That's where the best pilots and planes go to compete, so of course you'd wouldn't stand a chance in an ECA.

This guy has notes on different Primary/Sportsman figures in an ECA. He deals specifically with the roll and says you can expect a score of 7.5 at best, then you exceed the airplane's capability.

http://www.patspencer.ca/aerobaticscanada/AC/documents/Intro_to_Aerobatic_Contest_Course_2009.pdf

I'm still having trouble understanding your gripe, and you don't seem to want any solutions.

EDIT: I think it's also worth mentioning (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that the 7ECA was not designed for competition acro per se but more stuff like "barnstorming style" aerobatics and upset training. Planes designed from the bottom up to compete are, well, designed differently.

ssmdive
04-23-2014, 06:33 PM
Woah, woah, woah...hold on there.

I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. I have flown basic aerobatics and I have worked the judges line at competition. I don't have to be Rob Holland to be able to be irritated or say that you're wrong.

You should have some basic experience about the topic to claim that someone who has experience is 'wrong'... Which in this case is the sportsman sequence in a non inverted system plane. Again I ask, have you flown a flat wing non-inverted system airplane and tried to do a competition roll?

Plus you claimed, "Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub." Yet the data you provided had him flying a plane other than a cub. So either your data set was wrong, or you were wrong.


Then...you prove everyone's point. It's the pilot not the plane

You skipped the point that sportsman is not designed for Rob Holland to fly. You also skipped the point that there are very few pilots who are at, or will ever be, at a famous test pilot's skill level. Using a top notch pilot as an example is a distraction.... Again I ask for PROOF and not opinion.

Please show me a 7ECA medaling at the nationals. You keep saying it is possible, but if it really IS possible, then it should of been done sometime since the aircraft's inception and today. Like I said, put the data up to back your opinion.


From all this it sounds like you're basically upset that someone can't show up with minimal practice and ability and medal in a 37hp J-2 Cub (yes, some exaggeration).

Nope, that is what you want to read into it. My comment is that all those who keep claiming that the ECA can do well should offer more than opinion and provide some data. People keep saying that the ECA can compete in Sportsman, "its the pilot, not the plane".... Great, provide the FACTS to back that up.

Also your claim of me wanting minimal practice is garbage - A flat out lie. My point is the plane itself is an issue for the AVERAGE non-Patty Wagstaff pilot. I recognize my limitations.... I am not one of the worlds best pilots.

You keep adding things that were not part of the original position.... A tactic used by people without data to fall back on.

1. This is not about the top of the top pilots. This is about the Average. If the IAC only cares about the best of the best then they should drop every class other than the ones that will compete at the world championships. This is the attitude I have been running across.

2. You tried to claim I want some yokel with no training to have a chance. This is something you just flat out made up. I simply said that the IAC sportsman sequence is not practical in an ECA... You claimed I was 'wrong'. I asked you to provide your proof and as of yet, you have failed to provide anything but re stating your opinion over and over. Further you have made claims that have been proven, so far, to be wrong "Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub." The data you provided showed him winning in a Cassutt Racer, not a Cub and in PRIMARY, not Sportsman.

A 7ECA has a chance in Primary, I have placed second overall in a competition in *primary* in my ECA. This is not the topic of discussion.


As others have said, there's no way that you can make every category winnable by every airplane.

Then be honest about it and don't claim it can be done. "It's the pilot, not the plane".... sound familiar? You have said it several times this thread.


Plus, you're talking about Nationals for Pete's sake. That's where the best pilots and planes go to compete, so of course you'd wouldn't stand a chance in an ECA.

Then quit claiming it is fine for the class. Yes, if no one shows up at a local meet then a guy in a 38hp cub can win.... But quit spreading the lie that he has a chance when others show up to play.... OR provide your data to back up your opinion. So far you have been unable to do that, and I think that trend will continue.


This guy has notes on different Primary/Sportsman figures in an ECA. He deals specifically with the roll and says you can expect a score of 7.5 at best, then you exceed the airplane's capability.

Well then I have already done that. Again, I ask YOU have you flown a flat winged non inverted system plane in a competition style roll... If so, then please let us know.


I'm still having trouble understanding your gripe, and you don't seem to want any solutions.

Then you either have not read a thing I have written, or you choose not to understand.

Simply put, if the plane does not have a chance, quit lying and saying it does have a chance. Be honest.


DIT: I think it's also worth mentioning (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that the 7ECA was not designed for competition acro per se but more stuff like "barnstorming style" aerobatics and upset training. Planes designed from the bottom up to compete are, well, designed differently.

Then QUIT TELLING PEOPLE THAT THE PILOT IS ALL THAT MATTERS! Be honest and admit that the plane has no chance in Sportsman instead of trying to sell the line that the person who does not agree must not train enough or quit trying to say the since maybe the best pilots in the world might be able to do it that I have no real gripe.

Not a difficult concept.... Quit saying the pilot is all that matters when you know that is not the truth. Admit that some sequences are designed to favor some planes and basically eliminate others.

Edit to add: I am sure you will not provide the data. Further I am sure you will just continue to spout your opinion without providing evidence, or worse continue to provide data that does not support your position - IE: it was a Cassutt, not a cub. Primary, not Sportsman.

Details matter, facts matter.

WLIU
04-23-2014, 07:49 PM
When I talk to a pilot about competition, I explain that this sport is a multi-dimensional challenge. The flying is only the last part of the competition. You have to qualify in multiple ways.

First you have to organize the $$ for the airplane, practice gas, critiquing and coaching, and travel away from home base to these and the contests. If you can't medal at this stage you don't move on.

Then you have to organize an airplane that will allow you to compete at the level that you think you can. This can be done in multiple steps as your competition skills increase. Some folks figure this stage out, some do not, some choose particular airplanes because they want to add another dimension of challenge. You have to medal this activity to achieve success at the contest.

You have to organize the time and motivation to build and hone your competition flying skills. If you can not medal at motivation and persistence, you can't medal at a contest. Every champion I know has gold medals in this category.

And when you finally get to an actual contest, you have to organize the convergence of skill, focus, $$, the airplane, and a little luck, to medal in the contest flights and earn a trophy.

If you are in it for the trophies, you can fall short at any one of, or a combination of, the $$, the airplane, the time commitment, the practice, persistence, motivation, or luck, and you never make it to a contest or you fly home from the contest with nothing but an empty wallet and maybe a contest shirt. It is very easy to get frustrated.

Competition is hard. Not for everyone. Not sure what character defect keeps some of us coming back. I know guys who spend $400K on and airplane and $30K a year on maintenance, gas, coaching, hotels, etc., all in pursuit of a $20 trophy. Go figure.

So for anyone who wants the aeronautical challenge of competition aerobatics, the first step is to organize your life and career to make the $$ and time to find the airplane and training that will get you into competition. And picking an airplane that is right for you is part of that first challenge.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS - 34 contests and counting

cyav8r
04-23-2014, 09:06 PM
Plus you claimed, "Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub." Yet the data you provided had him flying a plane other than a cub. So either your data set was wrong, or you were wrong.

Giles Henderson won Sportsman at the 1971 and 1975 US Nationals and also won Sportsman at the IAC Championships (Championships of the America's) in 1983, 1986, 1987, and placed top three in many other years and flights there over the years while flying his J-3. Research the the IAC Championship, it was just as big a deal, or bigger than the current US Nationals since it was open to foreign pilots to win. Another thing to consider about contests from that period, many had 30 to 50+ Sportsman pilots compared with barely 20 in Sportsman at the current US Nationals. Its the pilot, not the mount he's flying.



You skipped the point that sportsman is not designed for Rob Holland to fly.

Pilots can choose any category based on what fits their individual skill, airplane, desires, pocketbook, etc. Sportsman is for anyone to fly and have fun with. It would be great to see Rob in Sportsman this year in Sherman...and he might beat me. If so, oh well, he was better that week. I'll be back next year. Pilots move up/down in category all the time for all sorts of reasons.

Sport Aerobatics is about having fun and hanging out with friends you meet over the years. Given that perspective the 7ECA is a perfect airplane for contests because its WAY cheaper to operate than the thirsty 300+hp motors.

If all you are looking for is medals and trophies, you be disappointed many more times than not no matter what aircraft you are flying.

RetroAcro
04-24-2014, 09:49 AM
Those who are new to competition often fixate on the "competition" aspect and how well (or badly) they think they might do. Most experienced folks see "competition" as an opportunity to hang out with their acro flying buddies. What you get out of it depends on your attitude, not the airplane you're flying. And pilots like Giles Henderson and even cyav8r here do extremely well in "lower performing" airplanes for a reason. They work at it, make the effort. They practice. They have flown their respective airplanes for a long time. They get coaching and critiquing. They have developed good solid basic aerobatic skills, and got help from the ground. Having a high-performance airplane does not make up for lack of dedication and hard-earned skill. Pilots who do well in unusually lower-performing airplanes are not necessarily special when it comes to natural talent. They simply stuck with their airplane and learned how to fly it well.

I suspect this sport may not be for you if you are so consumed and annoyed with the fact that it's hard for a 7ECA to quite compete at the same level as similarly-skilled pilots flying Pitts' and Extras in Sportsman. If you put in some real effort and developed some good skill in your airplane, you'd get a lot of respect from other pilots for potentially doing so well with a 7ECA. Most airplanes are a lot more capable than pilots who are new to flying them. Try designing a Sportsman Free sequence that better suits your airplane. And seriously - I'd be happy to run a one-design contest for all the hopelessly disenchanted-with-IAC 7ECA pilots out there...if there are any others.

ssmdive
04-24-2014, 11:35 AM
Its the pilot, not the mount he's flying.

Pilots can choose any category based on what fits their individual skill, airplane, desires, pocketbook, etc. Sportsman is for anyone to fly and have fun with. It would be great to see Rob in Sportsman this year in Sherman...and he might beat me. If so, oh well, he was better that week. I'll be back next year. Pilots move up/down in category all the time for all sorts of reasons.

Sport Aerobatics is about having fun and hanging out with friends you meet over the years. Given that perspective the 7ECA is a perfect airplane for contests because its WAY cheaper to operate than the thirsty 300+hp motors.

If all you are looking for is medals and trophies, you be disappointed many more times than not no matter what aircraft you are flying.

I have made you this offer before and you never replied... So I'll do it again.

Come down to Sebring and I'll give you my ECA to compete in sportsman (provided you meet the open pilots requirements - which you clearly should). If you win, you will prove your point and shut me up.

You game? You can't really lose, I mean you get to come down an compete and have fun... Tell ya what, I'll even pay your entry fee.

ssmdive
04-24-2014, 12:08 PM
Those who are new to competition often fixate on the "competition" aspect

Might be because it is in the title.... If a pilot just wanted to hang out with pilots, we would be talking about a fly-in.


I suspect this sport may not be for you

I often suspect the same thing based in the responses I have been given.


you'd get a lot of respect from other pilots for potentially doing so well with a 7ECA.

I don't fly Acro to impress others.


I'd be happy to run a one-design contest for all the hopelessly disenchanted-with-IAC 7ECA pilots out there...if there are any others.

And a true one design contest would be fun. But I wonder how many pilots in aerobatic capable aircraft have been chased away from competition based on discussions like this? Read the posts from a neutral perspective.... There is a ton of underlying comments making claims that I want it given to me, I am not a good pilot, I don't want to train....etc

Just for fun, I'll add some of my resume.... Competitive skydiver with silver medals at the nationals in 8way open, 16 way open, 10 way open. Won the Advanced class in 4 way, silver in Intermediate 4 and gold in 8 way, two world records, skydiving instructor and competition coach. My first aerobatic comp I placed 2nd in primary in the ECA. Every other plane was a Pitts. All the local guys said I could fly the plane in Sportsman, but I would stand zero chance at a medal and I'd have to fly the plane at redline and VNE to stand a chance.

So:
1. Beat on the plane to compete and lose in Sportsman
2. Stay in Primary (which they removed the 45* upline and the spin.. Making it uninteresting to me and retained the 1/2 cuban and roll which if done correctly drops the oil preasure and kills the engine).
3. Buy a new plane.

Pointing out that an ECA has zero chance in Sportsman has brought me a bunch of people saying I 'irritate' them and claims that I want it given to me or claims that I lack basic skills.... Not exactly a welcoming wagon.

But the Pitts S1S goes into prebuy soon. So I'll have nothing to cry about when I get my ass kicked in Sportsman in the future.

But the main point still stands. The sport is dying, the sequences IMO should really have min and maximum aircraft, and new pilots are not always welcomed with open arms and instead talked down to... I have noticed in person they all tend to be nice, but online that is not always the case.

The majority of people I have run across have been great.... But the ones that say I 'irritate' them, or claim I want it 'given to me' or claim I must lack 'basic skills' are the ones that stick out and close the sport to people who think they may want to try it.

Just something to consider.... How many people get pushed away when they are talked down to?

WLIU
04-24-2014, 12:38 PM
Actually, I observe that the sport is not dying. Much to my surprise, over the last couple of years we have seen more competitors at contests. And folks are trying to organize more contests, not fewer. This year in the northeast we decided to not try a new contest location because the contest calendar is too full. In truth, for the last couple of years, with the state of the economy and the impact on most folks flying budget, I expected to see fewer competitors not more. I have been pleasantly disappointed in that expectation.

Now that appears to be separate from the decline in IAC membership. There has always been something like 500 pilots who compete. The rest of the IAC membership has been pilots and individuals who thought acro was interesting enough to be a member and read the magazine, to the tune of 3000+ people. IAC seems to be losing those folks. Attracting those dreamers and casual aerobatic flyers is what IAC is not being very good at. Which is a different problem.

IAC needs to get better at communicating excitement and contest results. I have had some conversations with some of the hard workers behind the scenes at IAC about this. Perhaps we can do better this season. The gallery needs to see motion and action in order to be interested.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

ssmdive
04-24-2014, 01:26 PM
Actually, I observe that the sport is not dying. Much to my surprise, over the last couple of years we have seen more competitors at contests. And folks are trying to organize more contests, not fewer. This year in the northeast we decided to not try a new contest location because the contest calendar is too full. In truth, for the last couple of years, with the state of the economy and the impact on most folks flying budget, I expected to see fewer competitors not more. I have been pleasantly disappointed in that expectation.

I will defer to your experience.


Now that appears to be separate from the decline in IAC membership. There has always been something like 500 pilots who compete. The rest of the IAC membership has been pilots and individuals who thought acro was interesting enough to be a member and read the magazine, to the tune of 3000+ people. IAC seems to be losing those folks. Attracting those dreamers and casual aerobatic flyers is what IAC is not being very good at. Which is a different problem.

IAC needs to get better at communicating excitement and contest results. I have had some conversations with some of the hard workers behind the scenes at IAC about this. Perhaps we can do better this season. The gallery needs to see motion and action in order to be interested.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

And that is what I am talking about. People keep saying there are 8K RV's out there but the IAC keeps the sequences behind a password.

Opinion from a new guy..... It clearly is not welcomed by many.

RetroAcro
04-24-2014, 03:46 PM
Pointing out that an ECA has zero chance in Sportsman has brought me a bunch of people saying I 'irritate' them and claims that I want it given to me or claims that I lack basic skills....

Nobody ever said that. You were implying that it's unfair to expect everyone to be able to fly like Giles Henderson. All I am saying is that Giles has basic aerobatic skills, and has put in the effort to truly get the most out his airplane. Nobody ever said you lack basic skill. I'm sure you could be a lot better, though. We all can. You competed in Primary in a 7ECA against three other Pitts, placing second at 78.49%. That's pretty good in my book. So you got a trophy in a 7ECA. Now I'm more confused. You have yet to fly a contest in Sportsman, yet you gripe about the chances of your airplane doing well...after doing well in Primary. Traditionally, the Sportsman sequences have hardly had more peformance requirements than Primary. Add a hammerhead, humpty, and wedge to last year's Primary sequence, and you have a Sportsman sequence. A little engine sagging and short oil pressure loss doesn't hurt anything. I have a friend who did very well flying his first-ever contest (in Sportsman) in a 100 HP non-inverted Clipped T-Craft. As long as that metal prop keeps windmilling, the engine will re-start. You'd never be able to deadstick a metal prop doing a Sportman sequence.


The sport is dying,

Compared to what time period? I feel over the years the sport has somewhat followed the general slow decline in aviation period. EAA has very limited ability to spur newer generations to learn to fly at greater rates. Similar with IAC and acro...not that IAC has zero room for improvement. There is no perfect organization.


the sequences IMO should really have min and maximum aircraft..

I guarantee you excluding the most popular aerobatic aircraft from certain competition categories will not be beneficial to the sport. It will only cause fewer pilots to come to contests - all in an effort to allow the pendulum to swing more in favor of very low-performing aircraft? It has been shown that pilots of very low-performing aircraft who have interest in competition are in extremely small numbers. You are unusual in that regard. It would be better to invent a non-inverted category than restrict the greenhorn acro pilot who happens to be flying a Pitts or Extra from competing in Primary or Sportsman. A whole lot of relatively inexperienced acro pilots fly very high performance airplanes. You can't ask them to go straight to the upper categories.


the sequences IMO should really have min and maximum aircraft, and new pilots are not always welcomed with open arms and instead talked down to... I have noticed in person they all tend to be nice, but online that is not always the case.

Don't equate the offering of differing viewpoints with being "talked down to". You started off with a very negative tone and lots of complaining, without any suggestions. You have recieved responses from a few experienced competition pilots who disagree with your assertions, and have attempted to articulate those points of disagreement. Yes, internet discussion is not always conducted in way people talk face-to-face. But it's a two-way street. If you are saying you've received negative attitudes online, that's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I'm sure if we were all sitting around in person, the tone would be different. Internet forums are not necessarily the best way to communicate.

Go fly a Sportsman contest in the 7ECA. Try to have fun. You might even get a trophy, if you can even fathom that. Good luck.

Diana
04-24-2014, 06:47 PM
Opinion from a new guy..... It clearly is not welcomed by many.

Ssmdive, I understand what you are saying. Some of this was discussed in a similar thread here in the past:

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?309-Is-IAC-Sportsman-for-the-sportsman

Two gentleman who posted in this present thread, Wes and Paul, were actually very helpful and supportive when I decided to compete in my Citabria six years ago. Giles Henderson was selected to be my mentor at the contest and he provided some useful advice and suggestions. Other pilots at the contest had some good suggestions for me. Some were helpful and made me feel welcome, and others couldn't be bothered with me, and a few made fun of me. I felt out of place, but I'm glad I did it once. I met some wonderful people at the contest who became my friends. It's possible that some pilots here will attempt to invalidate your experiences or opinions if they don't agree. Such is the way with some groups.

WeaverJ3Cub
04-24-2014, 08:18 PM
ssmdive…a few points

You’ve made a couple comments like this…


But the ones that say I 'irritate' them, or claim I want it 'given to me' or claim I must lack 'basic skills' are the ones that stick out and close the sport to people who think they may want to try it.

…but I think you’re getting that from my original post. I said it, not anyone else. So if you have to carry that grudge, carry it against me, not the others on here who have offered advice. Internet chat boards are difficult places to get across a nuanced explanation; poor choice of words on my part. Please don’t taint the good advice being offered here with my mistake.

To clarify: Your record as a skydiver shows that you’re willing to work. That’s not at all what I’m implying. What I’m saying is what most everyone on this thread is saying “Yes, you can compete in Sportsman in the 7ECA. It will be challenging. Finishing “in the wood” will also be a challenge, particularly if a competent pilot shows up in an Unlimited-capable airplane. But you CAN do it. Practice hard, know your airplane, be a dedicated competitor and learn what you can, and you will do well. We’re confident in you….we don’t bring up Giles Henderson to put you down but to say “with work, it can and has been done.”

So that’s why it is a little “off-putting” when your response is that you basically want the category simplified and better pilots/planes eliminated to make it easier for the 7ECA. You did well in Primary; why do you think with more work you wouldn’t do well in Sportsman? The solution shouldn’t be to eliminate everyone else to make your plane more competitive.

A few other points….

On Henderson winning Sportsman in a clipped Cub, others have provided that info. Yes, he showed up to that competition in the Cassutt, but look at his percentage. Nobody else in any category did that. Since you keep asking for data (which I would submit we have been giving you), I would rest my case on his record alone, since the clipped J-3 is arguably a less capable airplane than an ECA. So by your own rules, you should beat him any day in your mount, right?


All that said…I hope to see you someday in the box. Seriously, come on out to the IAC East Championships in Ohio in June and compete in the 7ECA. We had 16 total competitors across all categories last year so I’m sure you’d have a more comfortable field. We’d love to see you come out and play with us, and hey…you’d be competing in the championships! Pretty cool stuff.

http://iac34.com/15801.html

ssmdive
04-24-2014, 09:37 PM
Edit: Never mind

Jim Ward
05-12-2014, 04:50 PM
I honestly think the IAC does not care.

IAC is a tiny organization of about 3,600 members, only about 500 of whom fly competition. We're IAC: you and I, Wes and Tony, your other correspondents on this thread and their pals. We're not some ethereal, faraway gaggle of untouchables. Others and I volunteer a pant-load of our energy and time – and reply to posts like these – exactly because we do care.

If you think we're messing up – and we can be phenomenal at it – call and have a conversation. The national leadership is easy to find; check out the Yellow Pages (https://www.iac.org/yellow-pages) on the website for our contact info. We all answer our own phones and most of us respond to email. Your regional rep is the best place to start, but call me if you'd like, too.

Jim Ward, IAC Secretary
603-860-4456 (cell, Pacific timezone)
james.roger.ward@gmail.com

dreamcatcher43
06-06-2014, 10:12 PM
Well, I've had several Citabrias from 7ECAs to 7KCAB. I've sent several Pitts and extras off to do their homework. Even the 100 hp 7ECA is capable of Sportsman. Last year one of my best sequences flying the 7KCAB was flown at half throttle after I forgot to push it back on the dive into the box. I honestly don't care what you bring to the box. I'm putting my mark on the board as high as I can with the equipment I have and I'm taking that home as my trophy. And I can tell you there are guys who will attest that even flying their Extra, my marks put a challenge up for them. If anyone has a 7ECA they would loan me, I'd be more than happy to use it an event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq07ZLvXZBk