Smoking at Airventure,

[Bill Greenwood]

For "1600VW" who is indignant about smoking bans at EAA.
To address some of the things he writes with much emotion.

1. When these old guys were fighting WWII or even in Korea, medical research was not at the stage it is now. For the last 40 years at least, the medical profession knows without a doubt the smoking causes not only lung cancer but leads to heart disease as well. Chewing tobacco even says right on the can that it causes mouth cancer,and some people even use it as their teeth fall out..After a long fight by the tobacco companies, including even lying to Congress, now it is clear and well known by society that tobacco is poison.
And unlike something which can be harmful in excess, but even a benefit in moderation such as red wine, tobacco is poison from the first use.
So today is different than when the army used to even give out cigs to soldiers.

2. You do no favor to anyone, even an older person, by defending their "right" to use something that is poison.
I never was a smoker, tried it once at 14 and it tasted bad. But doctors say that nicotine is one of the most addicting substances and hardest to break. I feel sorry for those who are controlled by it. If donuts and Dr. Pepper tasted like tobacco I'd be skinnier no doubt.
But some people do quit, and no matter if you have smoked for years, the body can repair some damage short of cancer. It is not too late to improve, or at least to hurt yourself less.I have two friends who are EAA volunteers and I use to joke with them about their smoking. Finally, almost in tears, they said how they'd like to quit but how hard it was. They never gave up and they didn't blame others and have been free of the habit for 10 years now.

3. If a smoker wants to put a hood over his head or do it only in a private closed area, maybe that is one thing.
But that is not how smoking is and has been done. When you look at the grounds around smokers it will be littered with butts. If cigs are so great, let them eat em, not throw them on the ground or out the car window. You don't really see half eaten donuts or cookies all over the place.

4. Most of all, the supposed "right" of a smoker ends when he impinges on anyone else's right to clean air. Does the old guy or anyone else have the right to blow their exhaust on a child or infant in their home or car? It's child abuse, even if it is not done all at once. But if you are addicted enough, you don't, even can't care about others, the only thing important is getting your fix.
If one smokes in an apartment, the smoke can get into others homes also. Even the smell and some of the poison lingers in clothing and carpets and drapes. I don't go inside a local gas station anymore because when I do come out with the stink in my clothes.

5. Certainly all smokers are not "dumb", even smart people can do dumb things, just as they can fly a plane too low or drive a Corvette too fast. But there is certainly a correlation between education levels and smoking.I am pretty sure you are going to find a lot more tobacco use at a motorcycle or Nascar race or tractor pull than at a Stanford event.

6. Our govt. has for almost a century made war on marijuana, a drug which is probably harmless and in some cases even good medicine. This war was probably supported in large part by your old guys, at the same time they and the govt were allowing and even pushing alcohol and tobacco on the public. Not a single adult autopsy ever list the cause of death as directly from marijuana, but our prisons have been full of people that were persecuted for using it. That is finally starting to change. And no,I don't use it or advocate it while flying.

The moral thing for our society to do would be to make all tobacco illegal, growing or selling, as it is known to be the poison that the govt has claimed that pot was.

By the way, I guess you and any of the old guys have the right to not wash your hands before eating, but you don't have the right to do this when it affects others like serving food or doing health care, anytime it would harm others. Same with blowing smoke on people.

[krw920]

I am a current non-smoker. I have not smoked in over 17 years. I quit because I wanted to quit, not a moment before. Unless you truely want to quit, you never will.

EAA grounds has designated smoking areas and I have no problem with people smoking within them. Each of those areas had a butt receptacle, please use it! One thing I cannot tolerate of ANY smoker is to think it is OK to throw your toxic litter any place you feel like it! Ash it out, and put it in your pocket if you have to, but don't throw it out the car window, or randomly on the ground. What gives you the right to litter anyplace you choose? Want to poison yourself? Feel it within your rights to do it, but please, please do it responsibly, in designated areas and clean up after yourself.

And on the flight line? Anybody caught smoking on the flight line should be removed from the grounds! That is just a disaster waiting to happen!

[FlyingRon]

You'll have to define "flight line." The EAA did away with that years ago.

Amusingly, when I was giving rides during the week, one of the pink shirts out on the Runway was smoking a cigar out there. I guess 36L is a designated smoking area.

[miemsed]

Would be nice to breath air without cigarette smoke at Airventure. Smokers force their habits on others at Airventure.

[Kyle Boatright]

I thought this thread was about the beer servers at the SOS tent....

[martymayes]

I thought this thread was about the beer servers at the SOS tent....

According to the Urban Dictionary, that would be spelled smokin'

[1600vw]

Bill the way you make it sound these old folks stand around and blow smoke on people and are just a bunch of old farts. Sorry to bust you here but they are not like you describe, none I know anyway. What about the smoke stack down the street blowing smoke to power our cities or anything using a combustion engine, we need to outlaw all this for this makes everyone sick.

I did not say smoking was not bad. I said if you are outside do as you please. If you don't like it walk away. No one holding a gun to your head making you be there. If you say the smoke travels, will so does exhaust fumes and every other man made crap we put out. You want to ban it all? Or tell everyone what they can do with it, controlling is what it sounds like to me.

Now turn all that around........

[1600vw]

People ban smoking in bars, I say make a bar a smoking bar and if you do not like it don't go. I won't go, but that does not mean others might. Whom am I to say you can not do this nor that, and whom are you? Like I said it sounds controlling.
I was not arguing the effects of smoking but the way people want to tell others what to do and how some view this. We call it the bill of rights some have forgotten we have this.

As for me being old, 53..I guess that's old.

[1600vw]

You'll have to define "flight line." The EAA did away with that years ago.

Amusingly, when I was giving rides during the week, one of the pink shirts out on the Runway was smoking a cigar out there. I guess 36L is a designated smoking area.

Do you think that cigar was worse on your health or the airplane you where setting in? Or the car driving past, or the airplane taxing by you. That cigar was hurting no one but the dude puffing on it. But lets tell him he needs to walk over to an area 50' away and smoke that.

[Bill Greenwood]

To add a little levity to a pretty intense discussion, there is funny skit by the master of understated humor, comedian Bob Newhart.

He portrays the famous English explorer, Sir Walter Raleigh who has just sailed over and discovered and explored Virginia for his Queen Elizabeth. So he phones her up to tell her about his exciting new discovery.
We can only hear one side of the conversation, but it is like this.
'' HI QUEEN, WALTER HERE IN THIS NEW LAND NAMED FOR YOU.
I have discovered a great new crop for you, called tobacco. What is it for you say? No, the cattle won't eat it. No, you
can't make clothes out of it.
What you do is roll some of it into a little tube and then smoke it. No. not like smoked fish. You roll it into a little tube and then put it in your mouth and set it on fire.
That's right, you put it in your mouth and set it on fire.
No, the voyage over was hard, but I don't have fever. And there is still some of the rum left on the ship.
And all the Indians say this tobacco is a great thing. Who, the Indians, the natives say that. Well, no, none of them went to Oxford and they are all savages, but they do seem to want to make us a good deal on this tobacco."

[JimRice85]

I think folks who don't bath frequently enough should not be allowed on the grounds. Why should I have to smell someone's BO. God knows there are some campers out there who need to visit the showers more frequently. I mean, you put 500,000 folks in close proximity, folks need to bathe.

Maybe EAA could sponsor "shower parties" to clean up the worst offenders.

Don't get me started on people who fart in the chow line...











Where do we draw the line when we begin restricting individual freedoms?

[miemsed]

I think folks who don't bath frequently enough should not be allowed on the grounds. Why should I have to smell someone's BO. God knows there are some campers out there who need to visit the showers more frequently. I mean, you put 500,000 folks in close proximity, folks need to bathe.

Maybe EAA could sponsor "shower parties" to clean up the worst offenders.

Don't get me started on people who fart in the chow line...











Where do we draw the line when we begin restricting individual freedoms?

Very funny but you draw the line when ones individual freedom like smoking causes bystanders to breath a cancer causing smoke.

[FlyingRon]

Very funny but you draw the line when ones individual freedom like smoking causes bystanders to breath a cancer causing smoke.

Perhaps when you actually have some serious science that shows such a causality. They've not been able to show any link to cancer with SHS and the coronary disease causaltiy is still a bit tenuous (so says the CDC).

If you're going to jump to hysterical science you might as well shutdown all those TEL-belching aircraft that pollute the Airventure environment.

[miemsed]

Very funny but you draw the line when ones individual freedom like smoking causes bystanders to breath a cancer causing smoke.

Perhaps when you actually have some serious science that shows such a causality. They've not been able to show any link to cancer with SHS and the coronary disease causaltiy is still a bit tenuous (so says the CDC).

If you're going to jump to hysterical science you might as well shutdown all those TEL-belching aircraft that pollute the Airventure environment.

----

[CAVU Mark]

Smoking is for suckers...

[FloridaJohn]

Perhaps when you actually have some serious science that shows such a causality. They've not been able to show any link to cancer with SHS and the coronary disease causaltiy is still a bit tenuous (so says the CDC).
Do you have a link on that information? I went to the CDC website, and according to this page (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/health_effects/index.htm),

"There is no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke. Secondhand smoke causes numerous health problems in infants and children, including severe asthma attacks, respiratory infections, ear infections, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Some of the health conditions caused by secondhand smoke in adults include heart disease and lung cancer."

and this:


"Secondhand smoke causes lung cancer in adults who themselves have never smoked.



Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or at work increase their risk of developing lung cancer by 20–30%.
Secondhand smoke causes an estimated 3,400 lung cancer deaths among U.S. nonsmokers each year."

[FlyingRon]

Read the document in footnote 3 of that propaganda sheet.

[JimRice85]

Hey, President Obama smokes so it must be okay. Right?

I'm not a proponent of smoking. I quit years ago. I wish everyone would, but it is still a choice, in a country where we have choices. If you choose not to smoke, don't hang out near the smoking area.

Many would have the same argument about alcohol. I haven't heard anyone in favor of banning all alcohol. Seems it was tried once and didn't work out so well.

[FloridaJohn]

Read the document in footnote 3 of that propaganda sheet.
From that paper:

"CONCLUSION
Data consistently demonstrate that secondhand-smoke exposure increases the risk of coronary heart disease and heart attacks and that smoking bans reduce heart attacks. Given the prevalence of heart attacks, and the resultant deaths, smoking bans can have a substantial impact on public health. The savings, as measured in human lives, is undeniable."

Doesn't seem very tenuous to me.

[miemsed]

Hey, President Obama smokes so it must be okay. Right?

I'm not a proponent of smoking. I quit years ago. I wish everyone would, but it is still a choice, in a country where we have choices. If you choose not to smoke, don't hang out near the smoking area.

Many would have the same argument about alcohol. I haven't heard anyone in favor of banning all alcohol. Seems it was tried once and didn't work out so well.

The problem is there was smoking in areas that are not smoking areas. Just look at all the cig butts all over the grounds. It amazes me that some smokers feel that the earth is their ashtray. Believe me if there were designated smoking areas, I would be no where near them

And for the other poster, there is plenty of evidence of the dangers of your secondhand smoke .

[JimRice85]

I agree folks should only smoke in the smoking areas and dropping butts on the ground anywhere is wrong.

Back to individual freedoms though...

Should we ban racing? Occasionally cars leave the track and hit someone or something causing serious injury or death. The race fans are innocent bystanders, are they not?

Risk is always there, in everything we do.

[I_FLY_LOW]

I was able to catch a good portion of the airshow via streaming video the whole week, and was astonished at all the smokers I saw there, this year.
Someone should really have a word with these folks about their smoking habits..
Here are a few examples:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2879/9444790407_321e4d5d0c_m.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Airventure_2007_Aeroshell.jpg

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sean-Tucker-Challenger-II-Pitts-2.jpg

[WWhunter]

I replied to BG's other thread also in regards to the gripes about Oshkosh and I will have to agree that the amount of people I saw smoking this year was the worse I have ever seen during the airshow. I literally saw smokers in every single area I visited. I personally feel they have a right to smoke but only when it doesn't affect anyone else. They want to smoke at home or in there car or away from the crowds, well have at it. But when the smoker lights up in a crowd of people that is just plain rude and self-centered with zero regard for anyone else's health. As I said in the other thread, I acquired a bad lung issue after getting into a bad auto accident that collapsed my lungs. Hate to sound like a whiner but now when I get a whiff of smoke it is very painful, it actually feels like I am sucking in razor blades! Yes, it feels that bad! Sucks!!! I do an immediate exit whenever I encounter smoke but why the heck should my enjoyment of the airshow be ruined because of smokers. I must have had a streak of bad luck this year because it seemed like every place I went there were smokers. I paid my big bucks to get in and should be able to wander around freely.
If smokers want to smoke, they need to go to the designated areas.
I agree with the others that stated seeing cigarette butts thrown on the grounds all over, I have never seen as many as this year and I have been coming to Oshkosh for nearly 30 years (missed last year).

[krw920]

Cigarette butts on the ground ANYWHERE is disgusting! Why some smokers think it is OK just to throw their waste out anyplace is beyond me! Then smokers wonder why they are disrespected!?!?

[Victor Bravo]

Smokers, here's an offer: Bring my mom back from the dead, and I'll buy you cigarettes for the rest of your life.