FAA Response to Young Eagles Petition

[dusterpilot]

The FAA's response to EAA's Young Eagles petition falls far short of everything we wanted and asked for. However, I urge EAA's leadership to quickly accept the waivers the FAA granted and pass the new guidance on to our Chapters. Our chapter has always been very active Young Eagle (YE) flyers. However, over the past few years, the number of pilots willing to fly in YE events has dwindled and the number one reason is cost. We have several partner organizations who are willing to cover all the fuel costs, but current FAA rules prohibit that.

As I read the response, what it will do for us is allow pilots who meet the minimum certification and experience requirements and who are flying normal category aircraft, to accept full reimbursement of our fuel costs. That would include more than 90 percent of our YE pilots and aircraft who regularly fly YEs. There would be an additional documentation and reporting requirement, but it would be worth it.

What I don't think it would do is prevent continued YE flights by Sport and Recreational Pilots in Experimental aircraft, or prevent low-time pilots from conducting YE flights. However, it would prevent them from participating in a 100 percent fuel reimbursement.

It would essentially create two classes of participating YE pilots. Those that meet the FAA criteria and can accept full fuel reimbursement, and those that do not meet the criteria and must continue to operate under the existing rules.

It's clearly not what we wanted, but we aren't going to get an exemption that will help everyone. It IS a huge step toward the funding assistance we need to keep the program going. I've owned 5 Experimental aircraft and flown YEs in some of them, but the reality is that the FAA will always treat them differently. We need to accept what they have offered and do so quickly. At nearly $7/gallon fuel prices, it's essential to the viability of the program.

[Mike Hongisto]

It’s disappointing that the FAA took the route it did with Exemption 10841 (http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?objectId=09000064813b0852&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf). When considering the airplanes and each member within our 50+ member Chapter this exemption will apply to just 1 (one) member.

Some Chapters will have better success in its members, and the airplanes they fly, qualifying for Exemption 10841. But those pilots using the exemption may unintentionally alienate their fellow pilots who can not. In other words, the attitude may become, “I’ll let the other guys do the flying since I’m not eligible for free fuel”. The question then becomes, how many incremental Young Eagles will actually be flown given the exemption?

Our Chapter members will continue to safely fly Young Eagles at our own YE events, and at surrounding Chapter events, without the assistance of 10841, assuming that the EAA even decides to adopt it. Also, like most pilots, we often fly with an empty seat and we actively seek out those interested in flying to come and join us. We also schedule a number of Fly-Outs in advance, as you’ll see posted on our website calendar (http://www.1221.eaachapter.org/apps/calendar/), and encourage pilot and passenger participation through e-mail reminders. These activities have built interest in our Chapter, added members, and introduced aviation to new people in our community, both young and old. Each EAA Chapter has this same opportunity, with or without Exemption 10841.




Mike Hongisto
President - EAA Chapter 1221

[Frank Giger]

What I don't think it would do is prevent continued YE flights by Sport and Recreational Pilots in Experimental aircraft, or prevent low-time pilots from conducting YE flights. However, it would prevent them from participating in a 100 percent fuel reimbursement.

It would essentially create two classes of participating YE pilots. Those that meet the FAA criteria and can accept full fuel reimbursement, and those that do not meet the criteria and must continue to operate under the existing rule.

Yep, that's how I read it, too.

But I figure that paying out of pocket for fuel (I'm a Sport Pilot) is an investment in the future. Then again, the Champ doesn't suck that much gas to make it too painful....

[martymayes]

Maybe they should have petitioned for a weight increase instead!

[steve]

So lemme get this straight - the pilot/owner of Experimental aircraft cannot be reimbursed for fuel expenses when said aircraft is used to fly at EAA sponsored YE events per the new rule, correct? But the factory-built airplane drivers can get reimb'd for fuel?

[Mike M]

So lemme get this straight - the pilot/owner of Experimental aircraft cannot be reimbursed for fuel expenses when said aircraft is used to fly at EAA sponsored YE events per the new rule, correct? But the factory-built airplane drivers can get reimb'd for fuel?

True. And in addition. Because the FAA considers "logging flight time" to be compensation (FAAs decision, item 2) ALL aircraft operated at EF/YE events must have standard airworthiness certificates. No, I do not believe that is what anyone meant to do. But it is what is written. Impossible for me to understand how my taking someone for a ride in my private vehicle for my pleasure, at considerable expense, without monetary reimbursement, can be called "compensation" but there it is in b&w. What next? Commercial certificate required for solo flight?

[mbond]

True. And in addition. Because the FAA considers "logging flight time" to be compensation (FAAs decision, item 2) ALL aircraft operated at EF/YE events must have standard airworthiness certificates.

What if you don't actually log the flight time in your book?

This ruling is also a pretty good hit for lower time pilots. Until you have 500 hours, you can't get fuel ... that's a lot of hours.

[dusterpilot]

Until you have 500 hours, you can't get fuel ... that's a lot of hours.
That's not true...You just can't get ALL the fuel. If you're flying a 4-place aircraft with 3 YEs on board, you can get 75% of the fuel; 1 in a 2-place and you can get 50% of the fuel. Just exactly as what is legal now for everyone.

[martymayes]

That's not true...You just can't get ALL the fuel. If you're flying a 4-place aircraft with 3 YEs on board, you can get 75% of the fuel; 1 in a 2-place and you can get 50% of the fuel. Just exactly as what is legal now for everyone.

Well, pro rata fuel sounds pretty fair to me if that's the case.

[FloridaJohn]

Well, pro rata fuel sounds pretty fair to me if that's the case.
Is that being paid by the YE, or a third party (aka sponsor)?

[Mike M]

That's not true...You just can't get ALL the fuel. If you're flying a 4-place aircraft with 3 YEs on board, you can get 75% of the fuel; 1 in a 2-place and you can get 50% of the fuel. Just exactly as what is legal now for everyone.

Yes, you can get all the fuel, plus you can get the fuel to get there and back...no restriction on how far you fly in transit, nor how much fuel...apparently it's a change, in b&w in the FAA decision. so i changed the color a bit so it stands out:

"Therefore, pursuant to the authority contained in 49 U.S.C. §§ 40113 and 44701, delegated to me by the Administrator, Experimental Aircraft Association, Inc., is granted an exemption from 14 CFR §§ 61.113(a); 61.113(b); and 61.113(c) to the extent necessary to allow:
1. Reimbursement, in the form of free fuel for the amount of fuel used in transit and during EF/YE events;"

[Mike M]

...What I don't think it would do is prevent continued YE flights by Sport and Recreational Pilots in Experimental aircraft, or prevent low-time pilots from conducting YE flights...It's clearly not what we wanted, but we aren't going to get an exemption that will help everyone. It IS a huge step toward the funding assistance we need to keep the program going.

It prevents Sport and Recreational pilots and those with less than the minimum flight time requirements from participating in Flight Rally ops, and prevents us all from using anything other than standard category aircraft for Flight Rallys. No EAB, no SLSA, etc. It does not prohibit Sport and Recreational and low-time pilots from flying Young Eagles "individually" in EAB etc, meaning NOT at Flight Rallys. You are so right - two tiers of participants were created while implementing the facade of "one level of safety" for the great unwashed.

So when we all dig into the same donut box after the chapter meeting then go fly Young Eagles, some folks will be getting reimbursement and "compensation", some will not. Those with the quals and certificates will have done all the paperwork to get "paid" in fuel or logged flight hours, some won't be allowed to participate in the Rally at all. So some will be at a fully sanctioned Flight Rally, some will just happen to have dropped by the airport. Some will need megabriefings and pounds of forms, some will need a YE certificate and brochure. Those with thousands of hours, instrument ratings, and twins will be limited to 2000/5 with less than 20 kt winds, the new Sport Pilot with 25 TT and an ELSA with no airframe manufacturer to set ASTM consensus limitations will be basic VMC. How about the 97-y.o. retired ATP/CFII who is flying his Ercoupe with a driver's license "medical" using sport pilot privileges, although holding a qualifying airman certificate and the aircraft is carrying a standard category airworthiness certificate? Free donuts or free gas?

One level of safety. Your mileage may vary.

[Skyhook]

I am a low-time commercial pilot- ~2000 hrs.- and have flown hundreds of first-timers in the several acft I have owned, including an RV-4. I presently own a 'geezer hawk' 152/150 and have stopped flying 'newbies'. Why? Liability.

Not long ago, I participated in a public activity where there was an 'incident' involving a heavy, waddling-type woman who twisted her ankle on uneven ground, broke something and sued the 'H" out of the organizers (unrelated to aviation). Anyhow, since that event and having watched the thousands of dollars exchange hands in all directions, I am very hesitant to take anyone flying I do not know. And, even then there's that gnawing concern.. what if the kid's grandma/mother/whomever gets a walk-about injury as they are walking to my hangar on my field?

The last flying event I participated in had folks walking dogs on long leashes by spinning props, loose dogs running around starting-up acft, etc. Knowing how very much today's effete love there animals, imagine what that could cost in lawyer's fees.:rollseyes:

Anyhow, when I started flying many moons ago, kids were kids, hung on the fence and gratefully accepted a ride AND had <adult> parental permission sans lawyers.

I guess what I am saying is that part of the demise of the free-flying, ride-offering of yesteryear has to do with more than just the price of fuel. Be careful out there.

[Bill Greenwood]

I am not sure, but I think there was a fund raiser one night at the museum and quite a bit of money, maybe more than a $million was totaled up for the Young Eagles program.

My question is what this money is used for? Obviously there are some admin and advertising costs associated with EAA running this program, but I would think it would run in the tens of thousands $, not anywhere near a million. And insurance is probably a signiificant cost also. Are these funds also used for the summer air academy? Don't the participant in that pay a fee or not?

Since the main costs for Young Eagles and flying the adult first timers are furnished by the pilots/owners by using their own planes, it should not be so expensive for EAA.
I have flown some dozens of kids and some parents, and never asked for free fuel, it didn't really occur to me, but I thought this was offered by Phillips or Shell or some sponsor, not by EAA. Some pilots have flown hundreds of kids and at least one is up to 1000!, so fuel reimbursment would be a big factor for them.

What are the details for these programs and costs?

I am all for the programs, especially now putting some emphasis on flying people of the age that are likely to start taking lessons and go on to be pilots and EAA members.

And the most important thing is that these flights be safe, not whether fuel costs are reimbursed.
When you are flying some Mother's child, you are responsible for the most dear thing in her life.
We have shown that we can fly safely, with perhaps almost 2 million flown and as for as I know only a couple of accidents.
Let's not let our standards down, no shortcuts of safety on these flights.

[Bill Greenwood]

After I wrote my post above, I phoned EAA to ask more about the program.

The good news, there have been only two accidents in all the more than 1.7 million Young Eagles flown.

[FlyingRon]

I'm sure insurance is a big thing. The YE bumps up your insurance coverage to a million smooth and I believe also insures the ground workers at events. Frankly, if you're interested in the financials, typically all you have to do (as a member) is ask for them. I've had pretty good luck getting details out of the EAA in years past.

Note the Gathering of Eagles is not exclusively a YE event. The money goes to YE as well as other EAA Youth Programs.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, I assumed just as you wrote, that all one had to do to get details of the programs "is ask for them". That is just what I did and the lady seemed very reluctant to talk about it. Usually when I phone EAA the folks are very friendly and helpful, but not this time. Maybe I just caught her on a down day.

I don't know how the EAA insurance works, but I assume the private owners coverage comes first in event of a claim.

If we keep flying safely then insurance is not subject to claims paid out.

[FlyingRon]

Eh? Regardless of who pays first, the EAA provides supplemental insurance and that has to be paid for whether there are claims or not. We have had a fatal YE crash. I had a non-fatal crash (only claim was to my own insurer for some of the post failure damage). I got a nice letter from Steve Buss thanking me for not killing any Young Eagles. The ground people aren't going to be covered by any pilot's policy. I believe this is covered by some policy that applies to general EAA chapter activities. The pilots who fly YE's accrue credits for sending kids to the EAA Academy. I just sign mine over to the chapter so they can be pooled together to do something useful. I suspect that this is all included in the GoE and similar fundraising.

[Mike M]

The not so good news, the lady I spoke to, "Michele" was initially friendly, but as soon as I asked anything about more details, especially the accidents and the amount of money involved she became very reticent and reluctant to answer questions and would not transfer me to someone who could give answers. She asked me what my "plan" was for finding out this information, which surprised me as I thought this would be public information and certainly available to any member. In the end she asked me my member number and took my phone number and said that someone would call me back. It seemed an unusual way to handle an info request that EAA has been public on some of it and should be proud of what they have done.

Maybe I am missing some key idea here.

Yep, Bill, no disrespect intended but based only on the way you told the story I believe you indeed are missing a key idea. "Michele" is the person who answered the phone for a $multimillion$ organization with tens of thousands of members. I may be wrong, but I don't think she's in the same pay grade with Jack and the big kids who talk to the press. Unknown caller, out of the blue, starts asking questions about a program for minors, progresses to accidents including fatals involving said minors, then wants to discuss financial information on the organization. Sounds like a classic "film at 11" sensationalist on a fishing expedition or a class-action specialist looking for paydirt. So AFTER all that, she gets your member number and phone number so one of the suits can call you back with answers that will pass muster with legal. Unless she was aggressively disrespectful, I say she deserves a pat on the back and free lunch.

Your mileage may vary.

[Bill Greenwood]

I don't use an alias, either on line or on the phone.My posts are in my name and when I spoke to the lady at EAA I used my name, the same one I had when I joined EAA in 1982.


It may seem normal to you for EAA to be reluctant to talk about details of one of their major programs, but then I was not assuming that there was anything that was secret and I am certainly missing the key idea that EAA needed to hide things about these programs.

I have since learned that EAA founder Paul P. passed away this morning. I had no idea of that at the time of my phone call which was probably 11,30 am Osh time.
Maybe the lady was understandably upset, but she didn't mention anything even in general to me. Obviously had I known I would not have made that call today.

I knew Paul just enough to say hi and talk about riding motorcycles with. He will be missed for a long time to come, and what a legacy he has left for us.

[RV8505]

Cdr, etc., etc.

One big difference between us is that I don't use an alias, either on line or on the phone.My posts are in my name and when I spoke to the lady at EAA I used my name, the same one I had when I joined EAA in 1982.
So if you mean what you say, "no disrespect" then use your name when you critisize me or anyone else and don't pick out only part of my posting to quote.

It may seem normal to you for EAA to be reluctant to talk about details of one of their major programs, but then I was not assuming that there was anything that was secret and I am certainly missing the key idea that EAA needed to hide things about these programs.

I have since learned that EAA founder Paul P. passed away this morning. I had no idea of that at the time of my phone call which was probably 11,30 am Osh time.
Maybe the lady was understandably upset, but she didn't mention anything even in general to me. Obviously had I known I would not have made that call today.

I knew Paul just enough to say hi and talk about riding motorcycles with. He will be missed for a long time to come, and what a legacy he has left for us.


I looked thru the EAA donor/ contributor list that comes out yearly and somehow I missed your name being mentioned. I have never seen you at the gathering of eagles nor are you a lifetime member. Never have I seen your presence at the members annual meeting in the theatre in woods where they discuss the financials of EAA! Other than providing your yearly contribution of $40.00 you seem to have done little to nothing else financially to contribute to the EAA. I find it mysterious myself why someone with such a limited financial interest would ask or want/need to know those questions. I could understand your request if you were a contributor. However, as it is and knowing who you are it only leaves questions.

[Mike M]

use your name when you critisize me ... don't pick out only part of my posting to quote.

Alias? It's my name as email address.

Michael Paul Muetzel, Commander, US Navy Retired
10410 Merlin Drive, New Port Richey, Florida, 34654 (at FA40)
727 264 6203
Pilot certificate number 1925366, EAA number 76435, Young Eagles number 44

y'all c'mon down some time when you and the weather cool off.