Answers to some gripes

[Bill Greenwood]

As to smoking, well much as we may not like it, smoking is Not prohibited in the Airventure grounds.

As a matter of fact, if you look on the small folded Visitors Map the was available at many places, there are even designated smoking areas, at warbirds, near the Fed pavillion, vintage hangar, camp store, etc.. It is right there the last item on the key list, and shows a picture of a lit cigarette.

Why doesn't EAA prohibit smoking anywhere on the grounds?
I guess because there are a lot of foreign visitors and in some of these countries they are still about 1940 when it comes to smoking. There are a few places where we are actually ahead of much of the rest of the world. The last time I was in London there was still smoking even in nice hotels.Of course the U S is not all good about this, if you go to a casino hotel in Reno or Las Vegas, there are still addicts puffing away indoors. I stayed at the Holiday Inn Fon du Lac which is non smoking inside, but you have to walk a gauntlet of all the addicts puffing away just outside the front door. One day I tried to get an early dinner over at the Charcoal Broiler just outside the north 40 and their whole patio was filled with smokers. It was like going back in time 50 years. I ffelt sorry for those folks, they look so desperate.
Here in Colorado, it is illegal to smoke in virtually all restaurants, bars and hotels, schools and even some outfoor malls. Only about 10 % are still smoking and I am glad that I am not trying to break that addiction. Thankfully chocolate chip cookies only make you fat, they don't poison your lungs.

As for knowing where and when the fourms and other events are it is pretty easy, if you bother to look.
And it doesn't take any email or ipod or wi fi or online hocus pocus. There as a small booklet, a guide for visitors, perhaps 6x8 inches put out by EAA that list all or almost all the events and time and location. It is free, small enough to carry in a pocket and I get one the first day I arrive. I then go through and see if there are forums that I want to see. I mark the prime one on each day and some back ups if it works out that way. I look at the map and mostly plan each eve what I want to do the next day. Some days a couple of forums, some days none.
If you don't have or you loose this booklet, there is also a free newspaper on boxes all around the grounds as well as at many hotels that show the events for just that day.
If none of this suits you, you can often ask to see some one else's copy at a forum or when eating at a food table. Most people will share. The time and tittle of the forums are also posted on boards outside the various locations.
I have been coming to EAA for over 30 years, and have attended many forums and even given some as I did this year.
I may have had trouble finding time to do it all, but have never had a hard time finding the info on them, and I have never needed a cell phone to find them.

[I_FLY_LOW]

Where did you acquire the booklet?
I think that was the idea of the original question, also.
Was it at camper registration? elsewhere on the grounds?

[FlyingRon]

The booklet is not well advertised. Most newcomers would expect that sort of information to be in the "program" which as pointed out is really just a "souvenir" of pictures and advertisements. It was not given out when I registered except I knew about it from previous years and specifically asked for copies.

Relegating information about what a designated smoking area to an obscure map (which by the way the online copy was completely illegible) is not really going to reach the casual visitor who is a smoker. And absent the POP and other gentle suggestions as to where to go, smokers are going to assume that "outside" is a perfectly valid "designated" area.

[Bill Greenwood]

I am not certain where I got the booklet, but they are not rare or that hard to find. "Beagle One writes that the booklet is at every admission gate. "Cary" wrote that it was in the "flo bag" that he was given. And as I said, the daily newspaper that is there when we arrive each morning has much the same info.
I usually register at warbirds and the forum schedule and vendor display booklet is part of the packet given, I think, but I have also gotten it other places. The forum office near the Honda tents probably has the booklets also. I didn't go through camper registration. but I do get around a lot of the grounds. The museum probably had that booklet also.
I don't get the program anymore, as you said it is mostly adds for the Piglatus which I am not buying and it is bulky.

As for the map, I really think they are available in many places and are not obscure. I think I got mine at warbirds registration, am not sure. It never occurred to me in 31 years to try to print out an online map of the EAA grounds, so I can't address the problem in doing that. The real printed map is mostly well done, and pretty clear and shows most things needed with the exception of porta potties.
Both booklet and map were likely at the EAA member and merchandise building also.

But then I am old fashonied and even flew from Colorado to Oshkosh with a printed map, (chart), just as I have done for more than three decades. There were a lot of things I wanted to see and do at Airventure and didn't get time for all of them, and defintely didn't have time to find all the ways that cell phones didn't work.

And I don't know what a "Pop" is unless that is the partner of a Mom.

[RickFE]

Got mine when I checked in to camp at N40.

[bboss74]

I got mine with the "Flo bag" when I signed in at the N40, as well.

[Floatsflyer]

I-am-a-smoker but Oshkosh, much like other societal smoking-restrictive workplace and public areas, helps me to cut back dramatically which I welcome. That's mainly because the designated smoking areas are few and far between.

Let me give you my observations as a smoker at Oshkosh. There are only 2 places I don't go to because I have no reason: the N40 and Camp Scholler, so I don't know about smoking in those areas. On the main grounds, I only smoke at those designated areas(i.e. wherever there is a butt can)and I have never seen anyone smoking outside those designated areas except in one location and that's in "Vintage". Those senior well heeled guys and ladies don't seem to follow the rules for some reason-could be dementia or "I'm just too old and have too much money to give a s**t."

But I did notice that there were far more butt cans in more places this year than in past years.

[AlexC]

I don't know when Bill was last in London, but speaking as a Londoner I'm pleased to report that there are very few places in my much beloved city where smoking is still permitted!

[krw920]

Where did you acquire the booklet?
I think that was the idea of the original question, also.
Was it at camper registration? elsewhere on the grounds?

The "booklet" is the Vistors Guide, it is in all the camper bags, and available at all entry points, EAA welcome center, and at all of the group headquarters.

[Bill Greenwood]

It turns out that I was mistaken, the booklet, Visitors Guide is indeed rare. They only printed two dozen copies and therefore they had to ration their distribution. They were only given to members who were young, tall, dark, handsome, smart,charming, and able to make 3 point landings ( no jet pilots need apply).
So I can understand how some of you missed out.
Next year arrange to meet me Sun eve and I'll let you share my copy for planning purposes.

And Alex, are you the great guy that I know who saved me from a prop strike on the gator?
Were you at Osh this year? I didn't get out in the line area much to say hello. How is Steve?
And it has been a long time since I have been to England, too long, maybe next year for the Normandy anniversary if I can afford it.
I am glad to hear that U K is joining the rest of us on the non smoking thing. Maybe one day they will even start to refrigerate beer.

Do you know how the Brits heat their bathrooms in the winter? They stack a couple of cases of beer in there.

And you have to take what the Brits say with skeptisim, next thing they'll be claiming is that some Brit won a big tennis tournament and we all know how unlikely that is.

[I_FLY_LOW]

Well crap.. 6 out of 7 ain't too bad, I guess... I can wheel land...

[AlexC]

No Bill, I'm another great guy! But I was at Osh this year, sadly for the last time, as my wife thinks that I've been enjoying myself too much for far too long! And I'm pleased to report that we've been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century as cold beer is available here now although many of us remain incorrigible, and still prefer the warm stuff! A Brit (perhaps better described as a Scot) won Wimbledon, the first one (male that is) to do so since the thirties. Still, I'm not bothered one way or the other, Wimbledon fortnight always bores me to distraction!

[GroupW]

As to smoking, well much as we may not like it, smoking is Not prohibited in the Airventure grounds.
. . . .
As for knowing where and when the fourms and other events are it is pretty easy, if you bother to look.
And it doesn't take any email or ipod or wi fi or online hocus pocus. There as a small booklet, a guide for visitors, perhaps 6x8 inches put out by EAA that list all or almost all the events and time and location. It is free, small enough to carry in a pocket and I get one the first day I arrive. I then go through and see if there are forums that I want to see. I mark the prime one on each day and some back ups if it works out that way. I look at the map and mostly plan each eve what I want to do the next day. Some days a couple of forums, some days none.
If you don't have or you loose this booklet, there is also a free newspaper on boxes all around the grounds as well as at many hotels that show the events for just that day.
If none of this suits you, you can often ask to see some one else's copy at a forum or when eating at a food table. Most people will share. The time and tittle of the forums are also posted on boards outside the various locations.
I have been coming to EAA for over 30 years, and have attended many forums and even given some as I did this year.
I may have had trouble finding time to do it all, but have never had a hard time finding the info on them, and I have never needed a cell phone to find them.

The document I found to contain all the information I was looking for was the "EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2013 Visitor Guide". I did not have one of these in the bag or other information I got when I registered on Sunday afternoon. I thoroughly searched each document I did receive for that information, and that document wasn't there.

I asked several people where someone could get that information, and was told that it was in the printed "newspaper" available each day. I found that the "newspaper" contained only the day's events so I wasn't able to do any planning until getting it in the morning. I discovered a "Visitor Guide" quite by accident on the third day. I'm sure people would have been happy to share, but I never saw anyone with one before I got mine, and in fact no one I talked to even mentioned that such a thing existed.

But I see now that the whole problem was that I didn't try hard enough, and that Oshkosh isn't the place for dummies (or lazy folks) like me. I was suspecting that, but thanks for reinforcing it.

Roy

[AlexC]

'The EAA Airventure Oshkosh 2013 Visitor Guide' was given to me at the main entrance when I picked up my wrist band for the week.

[1600vw]

I have never seen anyone smoking outside those designated areas except in one location and that's in "Vintage". Those senior well heeled guys and ladies don't seem to follow the rules for some reason-could be dementia or "I'm just too old and have too much money to give a s**t."



Not too old and have to much money...They think like this....They fought for our rights and now people want to walk all over them. Just try to take that smoke out of one of their hands....

I kinda feel like they do, people died for our rights and others think its ok to take them from us. Just as you have the right to breath what ever you want a smoker has the right to do the same thing. I see not smoking in a building but outside.

By the way..I am a non smoker but a believer in our rights . Some are non smokers and non believers. If you feel others should not smoke that's your right, but is it not the other persons right to believe they could smoke, just whom are we to tell others what to do. Kinda sounds like Hitler.

If I don't like someone smoking around me I walk away. Just walk away, that is your right, no one holding a gun to your head.

[Mayhemxpc]

Do I prefer to be in a smoke free environment? Sure. I also prefer to be free from inhaling poorly burnt diesel fumes from tractors and gators and other less than clean burning trucks...but I am not going to get away from those on the grounds of AirVenture either. (Jet-A burnt cleanly through a turbine is another matter. (c:) I am annoyed by cigarette butts lying about, as I am for any litter. More cigarette smokers means more litter. (Hint: 27 paces between trash cans, never more than 30, as Disney's engineers discovered.)

Personal preferences aside, my only CONCERN, as stated previously, is people smoking in close proximity to leaking avgas. I don't know about the other areas, but this definitely applies to most of the Warbird flight line, especially the airplanes that fly in the show. It is probably true for other show plane areas, but I am not sure. Maybe other planes don't have the same overflow issues.

[BeagleOne]

Hitler? Seriously? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Smoking just should not be allowed on the EAA grounds during the fly-in. There are airplanes and fuel trucks all over the place, not to mention a lot of usually-dried-out grass, and it's clear from the number and location of butts on the ground that people are not paying attention to the designated smoking areas. The grounds are NOT that wide; if you want to smoke, go a few hundred yards out of your way and smoke outside the grounds.

[1600vw]

Hitler? Seriously? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I myself do not smoke. It just amazes me how some want to tell other what to do and how to do it. I guess all smokers are dumb a#### from the posts. I wonder how they have not killed us all. I also wonder how those old timers ever won a war without blowing themselves up from smoking around all those bombs and fuel and every other explosive thing they smoked around.
Watch any WWI or WWII documentary those men and women smoke everywhere around anything. Now tell them to stop. I would like to see this.

[martymayes]

Well, back in the early '80's during my first few trips to OSH, there was zero smoking on the flight line. Anyone know when this changed?
I also seem to recall there was zero food and drink allowed on the flight line. Seems like there was always a volunteer less than 3 steps away to inform the guilty party of their infraction. I remember this because I got busted for having an ice cream cone across the road that designated the boundary to the flight line. I was actually impressed with their enforcement.

[martymayes]

Watch any WWI or WWII documentary those men and women smoke everywhere around anything. Now tell them to stop. I would like to see this.

If you visit a resturant or bar in many, many states in this country now, there is no smoking inside. Somebody made them stop.

[miemsed]

Would be nice to breath air without cigarette smoke at Airventure. Someone else's habit should not be forced on others.

[AlexC]

I agree with you about that, however I have to say that I personally did not notice any smoking at Airventure, and being a lifelong non-smoker I usually pick up on it quite quickly!

[FlyingRon]

Actually, my wife, a reformed smoker is much more sensitive than I am (never smoked, but grew up in a smoking household). However, I only saw a few smokers and most of it was pretty innocent. They were standing well away from the planes in outside areas. Frankly, there's not much I was going to do (even it the volunteer capacity) not knowing where I could send them to smoke. Despite EAA protestations here, the smoking areas were NOT very prominent. In past years, the corals around some of the food outlets were the designated areas but this appears to have changed silently.

The only time I was bothered by smoke was waiting for my wife outside the flush toilets on the exhibit buildings. This appears to have been one of the designated areas.

[1600vw]

Knowing what we do I am amazed anyone still smokes. But whom am I to say what they can do, its their body. In my home I will tell them to go outside and smoke. I control my house but I control no one outside of my home, just as you control no one outside of your home. But some believe they know best and try to tell everyone what to do and how to do it...Does anyone remember...Jones Town...Same thing, a controlling person trying to tell others what to do, and they listened...would you?

[Hal Bryan]

However, I only saw a few smokers and most of it was pretty innocent. They were standing well away from the planes in outside areas.

Same here. I didn't see any smoking in any inappropriate areas. I can't say I was hunting for it, but my job has me covering a lot of the grounds multiple times a day, and nothing stood out.


Despite EAA protestations here, the smoking areas were NOT very prominent.

Where? Where have any of us protested? I just did a(n admittedly) quick search and couldn't find any comments from staff on the topic.

Regardless, while there are designated smoking areas on the grounds an, like you, I didn't notice any issues, clearly, some people did. Maybe we need to do a better job of designating those areas, making them more prominent or easier to find, what have you. That's extremely important feedback for us.

[Tom Steber]

I witnessed several people smoking in vintage watching the airshow. Up front, maybe 5 rows back. In line with the Pink Dot. This was over a few days. Each time they were told that there was no smoking in that area. They would protest but eventually put in out. I usually sit in that same area every year for the airshow and every year for the past several years there are people who want to smoke. Maybe more announcements over the PA before and during the show. Maybe we could have people watching for that like they do for toes sticking over the burn line. Or the way they used to look for unattended chairs. Remember that??? I love Oshkosh but there are certain things that I really miss. There...rant over.

[vaflier]

Well I have sat quietly watching this thread and finally have to speak up. I am a smoker ( There I confessed my sins for all to see ). I am however a very considerate smoker. I do not smoke around others , or Avgas, or in my airplane. I did observe however several rabid antismokers at Oshkosh walk up to the designated smoking areas and then proceed to complain about those damn smokers. If you do not wish to be around a smoker then walk away. I will always honor a polite request to refrain from anyone, however when someone decides to rant and rave about my bad habits and demand I quit smoking, Well to be polite they may kiss my !. If I am smoking and you are near and it bothers you then might I suggest that you simply say, Excuse me but that is really bothering me or my loved ones would you mind putting it out ??. You will find me and most others to be very agreeable. There are two sides to this story and my side is equally as valid as the other. No more and no less. What ever happended to treating each other as we would all like to be treated. I would also ask smokers to be considerate of others, since we do not have the right to cause discomfort, but if we are away from nonsmokers please do not make it your mission to convince me that I must quit just because you disaprove. You will likely also disaprove of my response. I will continue to be considerate of others and ask you to extend me the same respect. And just as a footnote I do believe that I have as much right to be at Airventure as anyone else. I suspect my money spends just as well even though it may have been carried by a smoker. Lets all be considerate and respectful of each other and most issues can be solved easily. I wonder how many millions of dollars are spent at Oshkosh by those darned smokers. May you all fly safe.

Randy

[Tom Steber]

Randy,

I would never walk up to anyone who was smoking in a designated smoking area and ask them to put out their cigarette. That would be just rude. But I have no problem telling someone who is smoking next to a $100,000 airplane in a grass field to put out their cigarette. Especially since that's what the rules are. BTW: former smoker here. Smoked for 24 years. Quit in 2002.

[WWhunter]

Well, I guess I have to say my bit about the smoking. I 'bumped' into more smokers this year than I have ever seen while at Oshkosh, the bad part was I saw them in almost every area of the grounds! Even in large groups of people which made it even worse since I person had a hard time trying to avoid the smoke. I also saw more 'stinky-butts' (my terminology for them) on the grounds almost all ove this year compared to other years. I thought it was strange though due to the number of smokers is actually decreasing.
My wife used to be a heavy smoker, I 'tried' it in my younger years but never cared for it. Fast forward many years, I was in an auto accident that collapsed my lungs requiring several weeks of being on a ventilator, got busted up bad along with a basket full of other issues. Not sure what the heck this caused but I get seriously bad respiratory issues now if I get even a small whiff of smoke. I respect peoples right to smoke but when that smoke gets into the air that everyone breaths than you are having an effect on everyone so to me the argument saying you have a right to smoke is valid only when it doesn't harm anyone but yourself. I am not the only person that has this issue and I always try to exit the area as soon as I can. I feel there is no arguing with a rude smoker. This doesn't apply to those like you vaflier since that is how people should act. Some smokers can be polite about it and that is great, unfortunately I seem to meet more that are not though. Yes, it sucks to be me sometimes!!
Smoking areas are a good idea as long as they don't affect others. Maybe they should have those rooms like I have seen at some airports....a glass enclosure for the smokers that everyone else can watch them all standing around in a room filled to capacity with people and smoke. ;)

[vaflier]

Tom, In the situation you describe I would ask them to put it out. Congratulations on quitting I hope it was easy for you, but I would bet that you can understand just how hard it can be for others.
WWHunter, the health problems you and many others have are the reason I try very hard to be considerate. I have a friend that has severe reactions to smoke. She made me aware long ago that for some people it is not a matter of they do not like it, it is a real and serious problem. I truly do get it. As far as the glass room ???, well I guess you and I are going to have to disagree on that one. I would agree that all smokers should be considerate of others. Perhaps one of these day I will find a way to quit that works for me, but until then I will continue to be considerate of others.

[WWhunter]

vaflyer,
The glass room comment was in jest. LOL That is why I tagged the little guy winking.
Yes, the medical issue really SUCKS!!! I grew up on a farm with both of my parents being smokers. It didn't bother me a bit back then. Now it feels like I am sucking down razor blades! Seriously painful, and why the heck it came on so quickly is beyond me.
Good luck with quitting! My wife was a heavy smoker until the last kid was born and that was when she decided to quit. It was hard and she still has those days she craves one. Its been 25+ years for her.

[Bill Greenwood]

The "glass room" comment may have been a joke, but it is reality at Denver Int Airport. When it was being built, the public was promised it would be smoke free, but not quite.. I think some of the big tobacco companies got in there, so there are several smoking rooms, one in the main part, then out on the concourses.

It is an average size room. supposedly sealed to the outside. You can imagine what the atmosphere and smell are like inside that place. I would rather eat that "white bar-b-q sauce" (mayonaise with garlic) that I saw at EAA, before I'd walk inside that place much less sit in there and breathe it. I don't know how they get anyone to be a waitress there. It is rarely full, but there have been a few people whenever I have passed by and looked through the glass. The don't look very happy. I don't know anyone that has ever been inside one, and I am very glad that I am not one them.

One of the doors is through the back of a restaurant, and is is supposed to be sealed but when waiters walk in or out, the smell comes pouring out so it is gross to sit in that part of the restaurant.

About 20 years ago our Mayor Bill Stirling got an no smoking ordinance for most places in town. There were some loud protests, one bar, Little Annies, claimed they would be put out of business, and customers would never come here again. Now, that bar is still doing a good business, and 9 out of 10 people like it this way. It is particularly important for kids to grow up with good ideas of health, and not thinking smoking is normal. Studies have shown that if tobacco companies can't get kids hooked while they are teenagers, they aren't likely to ever get them.

[OldGunbunny]

I would rather eat that "white bar-b-q sauce" (mayonaise with garlic) that I saw at EAA,.

Don't make insulting comments about that Alabama barbecue sauce, them folks get really riled up when you do.:)

[shack42]

My gripes about Oshkosh are - The idiots who charge around on the scooters without a thought for safety. they remind me of the streets of Ha Noi, Stupid officials who deliberately park cars/buggies in front of me when I am trying to take a photograph. EAA does not last long enough, I started in 1973 and have only missed one EAA so can be considered something of an expert on EAA, not bad for a person from England. Exhibitors who have nothing whatsoever to do with flying. Personally I think that EAA or whatever it is called has become too big and too commercialised.