Certified Seats OK in Homebuilt?

[zemon]

I am building a Bede BD-4C and I don't think that I will have any trouble demonstrating that I have done more than 51% of the work. Recently, I was told that if I use any parts from a certificated plane, even the seats, then I will not be able to register the plane as experimental amateur built and will not be able to get a repairman's certificate. Is that true?

Thanks,
-- Art Z.

[WLIU]

That is absolutely NOT true. You just have to have a log showing that you have done 51% of the tasks that the FAA considers building the airplane. I believe that if you build the airplanes from the plans, building wing ribs, welding fuselage tubing ,etc., you will have done way more that what the FAA considers 51%. There is a checklist in one of the FAA Advisory Circulars that you can get on the internet from the FAA or through the EAA.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[FlyingRon]

And 51% doesn't apply to the repairman's certificate. You only have to be the primary builder (which might be even less than 51%).
The 51% rule was put in there to stave off kits that were sold "essentially complete" where the "builder" was just doing some minimal assembly before certification.

Using certified parts is NOT a problem. As far as a HB goes (Except for the engine), there's no difference in using a certified part versus one you bought at Walmart.

[martymayes]

Art, there's a lot of information out there that just isn't correct. You can usually silence most of it by politely asking for a supporting reference.

[zemon]

Thanks everybody. I figured that this was the case.

-- Art Z.

[Jim Hann]

Art, if you don't have a copy of AC 20-27G, it will explain a lot in the FAA's own inimitable style!
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/4db2c5cd655cb3cc86257647004af4ee/$FILE/AC%2020-27G.pdf

Jim

[1600vw]

Did you know if you take a certified part, lets say an engine. Its brand new from factory never been used and you mount it on an experimental airplane. never start or run this engine then take this engine off the airplane that it can never be put on a certified airplane for this engine has lost its certification from being put on a non-certified airplane even though it was never ran or started.
Once you put a certified part on a non-certified airplane that part looses its certification.

Tony

[WLIU]

Another old wives tale. Keep the log book, document the maintenance and other work just like on a certified airplane. Don't be sloppy.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[martymayes]

Once you put a certified part on a non-certified airplane that part looses its certification.

Do you have a reference for that? If not, it's just another OWT.

[1600vw]

I will find it and post it. I heard this on either a eaa webinar or Roy Binsengers radio show but I heard a man speak about this and he used the engine as an example. He said and I quote, if you take a certified engine and just stick it on a non certified airplane and do not even run it that that engine can not go back on another certified airplane for it lost its certification the min you installed it on a non certified airplane.

I know nothing about aviation but what I hear or read, I would not just be blowing smoke up your butt, I said this or posted this because I heard it stated just as I posted it.

You challenge me to find this info. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

[FlyingRon]

I am also skeptical. As long as the part (engine or otherwise) is properly maintained by people who are authorized to do so in accordance with the manufacturers ICA and any applicable ADs, etc... it doesn't inherently lose it's status as an airworthy part. The problem is most homebuilders and E/AB operators do NOT do that. Then it becomes challenging to prove the part is airworthy. It's really no different from picking up a flea market part or one from a salvage yard. You have to prove that the part is now airworthy.

[zemon]

Art, if you don't have a copy of AC 20-27G, it will explain a lot in the FAA's own inimitable style!
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/4db2c5cd655cb3cc86257647004af4ee/$FILE/AC%2020-27G.pdf

Jim

Thanks, Jim. I downloaded it this morning. I am looking forward to scintillating reading. :)

-- Art Z.

[rwanttaja]

I will find it and post it. I heard this on either a eaa webinar or Roy Binsengers radio show but I heard a man speak about this and he used the engine as an example. He said and I quote, if you take a certified engine and just stick it on a non certified airplane and do not even run it that that engine can not go back on another certified airplane for it lost its certification the min you installed it on a non certified airplane.

I know nothing about aviation but what I hear or read, I would not just be blowing smoke up your butt, I said this or posted this because I heard it stated just as I posted it.

You challenge me to find this info. I challenge you to prove me wrong.
The FAA Type Certification Data Sheet (TCDS) for a typical certified engine (C85-12F) is attached. Note the first paragraph:

"Engines of models described herein conforming with this data sheet (which is part of type certificate No. 233) and other
approved data on file with the Federal Aviation Administration, meet the minimum standards for use in certificated aircraft in
accordance with pertinent aircraft data sheets and applicable portions of the Federal Aviation Regulations provided they are
installed, operated and maintained as prescribed by the approved manufacturer's manuals and other approved instructions."

Nothing in the TCDS says it must be installed in a certified aircraft. If it meets the standard of the TCDS, it meets the minimum standards for installation in a certified airplane. If you install it *in* a certified airplane, you must follow the applicable installation, operation, and maintenance requirements.

Ron Wanttaja

[CarlOrton]

OR is it a case in which a certified engine is installed in an experimental a/c, and the data plate is removed?

I can see how a brand new engine, with the data plate removed, could then not have the plate re-attached.

[martymayes]

You challenge me to find this info. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

I already did. It's permissible because a reg which expressly prohibits this action is nonexistent.

[Dana]

OR is it a case in which a certified engine is installed in an experimental a/c, and the data plate is removed?

I can see how a brand new engine, with the data plate removed, could then not have the plate re-attached.

The way I understood it (and I could be wrong, or the rules may have changed) is that when a certificated engine is used in an experimental aircraft, the test flight hours needed are reduced... but because it's a certificated engine, you need an A&P to work on it (the engine), unlike the rest of the aircraft. If you take the data plate off, then it's an no longer a certificated engine, and the flight test time is longer, but anybody can work on it... and then it's forever an uncertificated engine.

[Auburntsts]

The way I understood it (and I could be wrong, or the rules may have changed) is that when a certificated engine is used in an experimental aircraft, the test flight hours needed are reduced... but because it's a certificated engine, you need an A&P to work on it (the engine), unlike the rest of the aircraft. If you take the data plate off, then it's an no longer a certificated engine, and the flight test time is longer, but anybody can work on it... and then it's forever an uncertificated engine.

Not quite. The FAA/DAR can give you a 25 hr Phase I in your OPLIMS if you install a certified engine and prop combo -- it has to be both and the reduction to 25hrs is still not a guarantee. Otherwise it's a 40hr Phase I. Anyone can work on any component in an E-AB aircraft, regardless of whether it's certified or not. Of course the risk is maintaining and proving airworthiness should one desire to remove a certified component from an E-AB aircraft to install in a standard certified aircraft. So the disclaimer here is just because it's legal doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

[martymayes]

When an engine is installed on an E-A/B aircraft, it does not have to be maintained IAW Part 43, i.e, not required to be maintained by an A&P mechanic. Key word = aircraft. Removing the data plate simply means you now have a certificated engine with a removed/missing data plate. There is no reason to remove the data plate and I highly recommend not doing it.

If the engine is ever reinstalled on a certificated airplane, the person returning to service has to make sure the engine conforms to type design and is in condition for safe operation. There is nothing that prohibits doing that.

I'm kinda curious who keeps track of engine serial numbers and makes a list of the serial numbers that have been installed on an E-A/B aircraft and lost their certification forever (even if it was never started or run). Apparently, I'm supposed to consult this secret list to ascertain that an engine is "legal" for installation, correct? How else would I know?

[cub builder]

Of course if the history of the engine is unknown, as in maintained by an amateur on an E-AB aircraft, then someone has to inspect and certify that the engine conforms to the TC before it goes onto a certificated aircraft. It would be no different than buying an engine with no logs. It may require a complete tear down and inspection to certify that the engine conforms with the TC.

I have certificated engines on both of my E-AB aircraft. Both have modifications from the TC. I keep the data plates on them and list in the engine logs exactly what does not comply with the TC (Type Certificate) and sign with my A&P Certificate Number. If I sold either engine, it would be a simple matter for the new owners A&P to remove the non TC compliant parts and replace with compliant parts to certify that the engine conforms to the TC and can be installed in a certificated aircraft. (Non compliant parts are higher compression pistons, spin on oil filters without STC paperwork, and P-mags for ignition)

Removing the Data Plate is a method for avoiding maintaining the engine in compliance with the Type Certificate including Airworthiness Directives for that engine. I would never buy an engine without a data plate unless I was planning a complete tear down inspection as no data plate makes everything suspect.

-CubBuilder