Gripes

[Inspector Fenwick]

There is an old saying "he would complain if they hung him with a new rope"....well maybe that fits me, because there is absolutely NOTHING that can dampen my enthusiasm for Oshkosh. Been going for many decades. I remember getting on a hay wagon in the "north 40", pulled by a tractor, to get to the flight line. BUT, here goes.... Gripe Number 1: WIFI. Non existent the whole time I was there. Unfortunately, I still work and my ability to communicate with my "team" allows me to stay (wherever) LONGER. I have some ability via aircard and / or 3g and that saved me, some. But nothing beats wifi. I am wondering if the "online presence" mentioned in another thread has gobbled up all of the bandwidth?? Hal??? Anyway, I truly believe others are like me, give me connectability and I stay longer = more revenues. Gripe Number 2 is actually an observation. During my taxi out for departure Thursday morning, with 25 aircraft in front of me and who know how many behind me, the "samba line" stopped for many minutes. Why, you might ask yourself? Well, I will tell you. It appears that T-28's are not capable of landing on 36R, and thus must land on 36L, the runway used for departures. T-6 pilots, it was clear to me, have the skills to land on 36R but not the T-28 pilots. There was a lonnnnggggggg string of them, about a mile apart in trail, and we were all waiting for them to land, single file, with huge gaps of space between them. So, the preferential treatment the warbirds get......well, maybe another subject, but I was close to pulling out of the lineup due to rising oil temps, thanks to the warbirds. (and it wasn't that warm at the time).....I am already planning for next year. I would like to say "thanks" to Jack Pelton for his role in EAA and Airventure, as well as all of the OTHER volunteers.

[kmacht]

I too had a great time at airventure this year and it was obvious that some of the suggestions from last year were considered and implemented. Hopefully we can get someone at headquarters to combine the threads here with suggestions and make another list of ideas to make next year even better. Here are mine:

1) Camp Scholler Bathrooms. Someone needs to come in and clean the bathrooms a few more times a day. By the time 7 or 8pm rolled around more than half the toilets were clogged and the place stunk. I went to use the restroom along Stitts and Elm tuesday afternoon and there was only one working toilet out of the seven or eight in the place. There was someone there every morning cleaning and keeping the place up but it seemed to quickly go downhill as the day went on.

2) Aeromart: I know this isn't run by the EAA but instead by a chapter but what was up with not organizing the stuff this year? In other years all the stuff was organized into categories. If you were looking for radios they were all together, tools - all together, electrical - all together, etc. This year it was like everything was just thrown on a table and left in boxes. You had to dig through every box to see if there was something in there you were interested in. I'm sure there were a number of things I would have bought in there if I could have found them.

3) Lights - Durign the night airshow on wednesday there was a huge light shining directly in the face of the crowd by show center. It made it so it was next to impossible to see anything to the right of that light. Someone finally shut it off about half way through the show (much to the cheering of the crowd) but it ruined a good portion of the show until that happened. Also, the lights in the parking lot to the right of the fly-in theather need to be re-aimed. There are a few of them that shine right at the theater making it very distracting while watching the movie.

4) Trams - The trams were great this year. It was nice to be able to ride one tram all the way from Aces Cafe to the warbirds. The only suggestion I have would be to somehow clearly mark which red tram is going north and which one is going south over by the tram station at the control tower. There seemed to be confusion all week by people as to which one to get on when they walk up to the area and the tram is already parked and loading.

5) Forums - The name of the forums need to be thought out a little better. I went to one during the week called "Transitioning in your Sonex". It had nothing to do with how to fly or transition into a Sonex and was strictly about how to obtain a LODA to do flight training in an experimental. Even the presenter commented on how badly the name for the forum was chosen. There was also another forum on how to repair scratches on acrylic windshields that I attended. This was nothing more than an hour and fifteen minute sales pitch for some 3m product. The first 30 minutes of the forum were nothing but what was included in the kit they were selling and how to buy one from them. I thought that people doing the forums were not supposed to sell anything during the forum. I would also love to see some more forums on innovative technologies like the ones done on the cnc foam cutter and rapid prototyping but that's just my preference.

6) Innovations building - It was nice to have this indoors this year but I think it drew a bigger crowd when it was over in the building by the homebuilders hanger. The tent from the outside didn't look very inviting and unless you knew what was in there it didn't look like someplace you were supposed to wander into and look around.

Don't get me wrong. If the show were exactly like it was this year I would still be coming back. The suggestions above are just some ideas on how I think things might be improved. It would be great if maybe we could get a moderator to start and manage two threads here on the forum. One could list all the things we though were really good about the show this year and one could list the things we would like to maybe see changed.

Keith
Sonex #554

[N546RV]

I, too, had problems with the wifi up in the North 40. I was able to connect just fine on Sunday afternoon, and even attempted to upload my arrival video so friends and family could enjoy it. That was the last time I was ever able to get connected; I tried a few other times throughout the week, and invariably got a connection timeout. This happened with both my laptop and iPad, and I tried both at the east bath house and in the Haase's tent, to no avail.

I didn't have any need to be connected for work or anything, so it was only a minor annoyance for me. The biggest inconvenience was when I wanted to check departure weather Saturday evening and Sunday morning; I was able to use my phone, but that was definitely a last resort.

[Zack Baughman]

Hey Folks,

Keep the comments coming - this is EXACTLY what we need to hear to improve upon for next year. Hal, myself, and the other forum moderators will ensure that this feedback is heard here at EAA HQ. Thanks!!!

Zack

[rv8bldr]

I've been coming to Osh for 20 years, and I think this was the best year yet (the temps sure helped :-). The food choices were excellent, the regulation in the price of water was appreciated, and I really like how the grounds have morphed into a more logical and easy to get around structure. You guys have done a GREAT job over the last year.

As far as comments are concerned, I echo the ones above about Camp Scholler (the bathrooms at times were really bad), the lights at the night airshow, and the forums. My wife and I enjoyed the Innovations tent, but I think it could have had a little more advertising/information about it's contents. We almost went by it, but we did go in and thought is was great (we spent more than an hour in there).

I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of 12 year olds whizzing around on motorized scooters and golf carts in Camp Scholler! That was a welcome change.

I didn't like arriving down at the flight line at 0830 to see hundreds of abandoned lawn chairs taking up space for the airshow in the afternoon. Reminds me of those resorts in the Caribbean where people run out in the morning , throw a towel on a beach chair to reserve it, and then don't show up until the afternoon. My opinion is that abandoned lawn chairs should be treated like abandoned luggage at the airport: removed and blown up ... well, maybe not blown up, but certainly removed.

We both enjoyed the variety of acts in the airshows and the way the acts were mixed. Personally, I didn't miss the modern military stuff even a little bit. Watching the Aeroshell guys, an RV-8, a Decathalon, some Extras, the warbirds, etc are what EAA and gen av means to me.

To sum up, excellent show this year. All of the changes you wrought over the past year were well done in my opinion, and I'm already stoked to come back next year.

Cheers

[cptomes]

I agree on the abandoned lawn chairs. I think a suitable compromise would be to have flightline volunteers move them straight back to the cart path edge, clearing the fence line. After one year of doing that no one will do that again. Either you're there, or you're not.

I had very spotty wifi this year. Mostly I turned it off because it was unreliable. Verizon must have been having problems Saturday, I couldn't do any data on 3g in the afternoon.

[glider90]

In years past leaving lawn chairs unattended was a BIG no-no. Of course back then there the flight line was completely occupied by parked aircraft, and they often taxied in and out of the rows for parking. If you were between parked rows, you would be moving several times a day to let airplanes in and out. Now they have designated spots for this that are roped off.
Anyway, at one time lawn chairs left unattended were taken by Flight Line Safety to the 'building of shame'. We camped next to the FLS crew last year, and I asked them specifically about this practice. They said that they were instructed years back to leave the chairs alone so that none of the 'guests' were upset by having their chairs moved. So it may be a rule, but it is absolutely not enforced. Kind of like Chinese lanterns in the campground which were launched in record numbers this year.

[martymayes]

So it may be a rule, but it is absolutely not enforced. Kind of like Chinese lanterns in the campground which were launched in record numbers this year.

Rules. I think they call them "guidelines" and I interpret that to be "self-directed" behavior, which means everyone reads and conforms. However, I'd wager there's a large quantity that don't bother to read the guidelines so it's not likely they will be followed which is to be expected at any large gathering of people.

[flymichigan]

This was probably the 6th or 7th time I have attended Airventure. This time, I brought my three kids with me, ages 8, 10, and 13. We camped in Scholler. We had a great time, but I have to say that returning to our camper after the night time airshow as a nerve racking experience. With thousands of people walking to the exits, there were golfcarts and trucks driving through the thick crowds, in the dark. I am talking about on the grounds, not just in camp. I have never seen this kind of traffic mixed at a large event. In my opinion, this was a very dangerous situation, especially for the kids. I sure wish motor vehicles were required to hold back for 30min or so, until the crown is able to clear out....at least inside the grounds.

[FlyingRon]

I know the guy who was in charge of Aeromart this year. I'll relay the criticism. I do know they were VERY understaffed at start up (they borrowed some bodies from the Vintage flight line). I noticed the rather random placement of things myself.

I've given up with EAA WIFI. I've talked to those responsible before and they are indifferent to the issues. With tablets and iphones the demand has way outstripped their pathetic attempts to provide it. We've never had it working PERIOD down in Vintage.

Lawn chairs are always a touchy issue. We used to pick up unattended ones but we were told to stop doing that. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, it is less work for us. I didn't sign up as a volunteer to play lawn chair valet.

Most of the other things I've griped about over the years have been made better. The vehicles in the pedestrian areas has improved greatly over the years with the addition of a dedicated vehicle route and banning most vehicles in many high traffic areas. The other advantage is they made most of the vendors use the exposition company rather than giving them all vehicle passes like they did in the past.

[mazdaP5]

I also noticed that the cruising around the camp was way down this year, a pleasant change.

[BeagleOne]

Well, here I go! I went every day, just as I do every year, so I have a lot to say! :D

GOOD: 1. The requirement that anyone in Camp Scholler driving a motorized vehicle have a driver's license. Yay for no more young kids flying around not knowing what they're doing! 2. The improved tram routes...and just having the trams in the first place! In the 43 years I've been attending, IMHO the trams are the BEST improvement. 3. The air-conditioned, flush toilet trailers. The second-best improvement. Could more of them be provided?

4. The jumbotrons along the flightline. Hope the budget allows for more next year, especially for performers like Jetman, who can't really be appreciated as well from the ground. Until he starts doing low passes along the runway! ;) 5. The removal of most of the tents along the flightline, and the gigantic speakers from last year. Glad they are gone. 6. The new food options were a great improvement.

7. The Aviator's Bookshelf tent. My first stop every year. Bought 18 books from them last week. 8. The Honor Flight return. While having them return early so they can experience the airshow crowd shortens their time in D.C., the welcome the vets get is so moving...great idea, whoever thought of it! 9. Seeing all of the WWII planes is one of my highlights every year. So glad FiFi has become a regular visitor again. And on the days when there are so many warbirds in the air all at once...well, wow. Incredible. Goosebumps and eyes welling up.

10. Bringing back the vintage EAA logo on more merchandise. I love my two Tervis tumblers! Eisenhower jackets next, please! 11. The CAP kids I talked with were very polite and respectful, and it was great to see them lined up for the Honor Flight welcome. Great job! 12. I love watching the ultralights buzzing around every evening.

13. The overall "attitude". It seems like under Jack Pelton, EAA is listening more to its members and getting back to its roots after several years of getting kind of "over-corporated". Well done. 14. I love that the National Park Service is there every year with a special airshow stamp. Missed seeing the K9 demos in the federal building though. Will they be back next year?

And the biggie: the quality of the airshows. I was especially impressed by Sunday's show; it was GREAT. BUT I hope whatever the issues were with Kyle Franklin can be worked out so he can perform next year.

NEEDS IMPROVEMENT IMHO: 1. Fountain sodas with ice instead of/in addition to plastic bottles, please! The bottled sodas often were warm because they were selling so fast they weren't spending enough time in the coolers. 2. More portable sinks for proper hand-washing. Were there any outside the Hangar Cafe? If so I didn't see them. 3. More places to buy ice cream. The one main ice cream stand always had a huge line and the soft-serve needs to be brought back.

4. I'm from the generation that knows that not everything needs a freaking music soundtrack. Don't need to be blaring music over the speakers unless it's part of the airshow. 5. The movie choices IMO were not great...James Bond and superhero movies are not really aviation movies. There are plenty of modern and classic movies out there that are truly aviation movies. THOSE should be shown at Oshkosh. And of course "Airplane!" should be shown every year! 6. On night airshow nights, please consider having the trams run longer.

7. Can anything be done to provide shade at Warbirds in Review? I just about had sunstroke waiting for Bob Hoover, and while I really enjoyed listening to him, his golf cart was parked so he was facing away from most of the crowd. 8. During the Warbirds in Review presentation on the salvaged aircraft from Lake Michigan, the warbirds security volunteer was quite rude moving people off the concrete pad. He had no one to help him, and too few traffic cones to mark out the prohibited zone, and the trailer was parked so you couldn't read the information sheets without "trespassing" on his turf. He conveniently had his nametag flipped so you couldn't read it. He had a tough job, BUT he was over-zealous and rude in shooing people away. 9. Fewer vehicles on the grounds if possible. I understand some of them are necessary, but every year it seems like there are more of them and the people in many of them don't appear to be EAA officials, security, exhibitors, etc. I even talked to a dad who was chauffeuring his entire family around in a golf cart his uncle, an exhibitor, had access to.

10. No more unattended stuff along the flightline. It's a hazard and leaving items there is rude. Post signs along the flightline if necessary, and as much of a pain as it would be, have the flightline volunteers remove the stuff. What if something blows onto the runway or taxiway and hits a plane?

And the biggie for me: NO MORE SMOKING ON THE GROUNDS!!! Cigarettes have no place around airplanes, and I found multiple butts on the flightline itself. I'll pick up trash as I see it to help maintain EAA's excellent record of grounds cleanliness, but I will not pick up cigarette butts. Please, PLEASE ban smoking on the grounds.

[mazdaP5]

One gripe I do have was the mixing of the showcase with the airshow. Once you kick into high paced aerobatic acts, shifting gears down to flypasts didn't work for me. The funny thing is, I really liked the showcase in the past, but it bored me a bit when mixed with the airshow acts.

[Gil]

Love the new café in the North 40, and the new bath house. WIFI did not work at all for me, despite moving within 100 feet of the hotspot. Could use more places to charge phones and computers. Trams were puzzling - sometimes a long wait, other times four in a row arrived at once.

[Bill Berson]

The drinking fountain near Forums was missing, with only a pipe stub sticking out. I walked to the flight line and found that fountain was also missing. At first I assumed EAA had decided to eliminate all fountains but later found most of the others were in place.

More trams was nice, but flags are still confusing. Wifi worked in the morning and evening for me.

Overall very good, I had a good feeling that things are improved with Jack's volunteer leadership.

[martymayes]

I also noticed that the cruising around the camp was way down this year, a pleasant change.


GOOD: 1. The requirement that anyone in Camp Scholler driving a motorized vehicle have a driver's license. Yay for no more young kids flying around not knowing what they're doing!

Has that not been a "requirement" for a number of yrs?

Glad to hear folks are reading and following the guidelines.


Good luck with the no smoking ban. Maybe one day.

[FlyingRon]

Either do the airshow routine to music OR provide commentary, but not both. The combination was just noise.

[Cary]

The change in the food vendors was really positive--perhaps competition made the difference, but the food everywhere was very good, with still reasonable prices.

There are still too many hot-rodding drivers of golf carts and John Deere 4x4s. I suggest a large sign on each one showing the unit number and a phone number to call might reduce that problem.

Another negative: "music" (really?) which didn't match the airshow performances and drowned out the announcers. If music should be played, follow Julie Clark's lead, and make it match the performance. Otherwise, why the noise at all?

I'd like to see the trams run later, especially on night airshow nights. Otherwise, the trams are great.

Kudos to Kobussen, for having some of the nicest, most pleasant, and most accommodating bus drivers in the business, with amazing skill at putting those things through narrow places.
And special thanks to whomever at EAA was in charge of the weather this year--it was great! :)

Cary

[Tony_Fletcher]

This was my fifth Oshkosh trip and the best yet. The weather sure was great.

In no particular order, my observations:



Too many golf carts. Its seems like every where you walk, you are seconds from getting flattened by one. Where are all these carts going? Most passengers were of the waist-size that suggests some walking would do them good.
Food was great. I remember our first trip when all that you could get for lunch was a brat or a burger. All of the lunch food we ate was really good, with a nice variety.
Chairs along the flightline: no bueno. Either you are there or you are not.


All in all a great week. My kids are already making plans for next year.

[flyboycpa]

First off, hats off to EAA for making many much-needed improvements to AirVenture. Well done! Also, we love Jack Pelton, I hope he remains on. Thank you Zack and Hal (and the other moderators) for relaying the criticisms to EAA HQ.

My only negative experience happened when we went over to the Seaplane Base to have [what has always been] the best lunch at Airventure. We were SO very disappointed with Haase's service. They were very rude, woefully unprepared (i.e., out of most of what we wanted...and yes, I know they were only given 3 weeks notice about participating), served warm soda & water, and the supervisor/manager whateverthehellsheis was such an unbelievable wench that I will never give Haase any of my money again (as a vendor or the real Haase restaurant). The story goes that I had a piece of food stuck in my esophagus and couldn't "eject" it up or down. Usually when that happens I can chug some water and it will force the errant piece down; however, as I was being seen by the onsite Medic I sent my buddy over to PURCHASE a bottle of water. As he quickly approached the Haase counter and held out his money and said, "I need a bottle of water quick, my friend has a piece of food stuck in his throat." The wench [who was counting the money in the tip jar] slammed her tip money down and tersely said, "Can't you see I'm busy?!? The First Aid tent has free water." My buddy responded, "This is kind of an emergency, I'm not looking for FREE water, I want to purchase a bottle, right NOW!" She then proceeded to tell my buddy, "You're probably the one here yesterday that had my sister in tears!" [UNBELIEVABLE] He told her that we hadn't been to the SPB until today. She finally handed him a bottle and took the money.

Where was the famous SPB corn? Where was the famous SPB Friday night fish fry? I actually sought out the SPB Chairman, Paul Seehafer, to discuss the issues we had with the rudeness of the employees at Haase. He patiently listened, but we'll never know what happens for next year.

Overall, I think the food selection at AirVenture was pretty good. My wife and friend had hard times trying to find "healthy" (gluten-free and/or something not wrapped in a bun) choices other than a salad at Aces. It was always like an Easter-egg hunt to know which vendors "might" have something on the menu that she could eat.

We are already booked in our hotel for next year, see you then.

Sam Swift
EAA 626907
VAA 31122

[Ylinen]

There were many improvements to Air Venture over last year. These comments are just meant to make it better.

1. It was great to have the sessions at the innovation center on the forum list. We now need to continue to add all events to one schedule. The speakers at the War Bird and the Museum need to be on the list with the Forums and workshops.

2. It is probably time to start to replace the chairs that are in the Forums and workshops. Some are getting unsafe. Maybe a few each year.

3. The Jumbotron was a good idea. There needs to be more monitors and it would be great if it could be live streamed as well.

4. Great to move the member meeting to Wednesday morning. How about streaming the meeting so that those that can not attend can see and hear it. Maybe record it so those that are not able to watch live can see it.

5. The Sporty's APP is a good idea. I wish they would use a system that allowed for live updates. Like using www.guidebook.com. Then as items change, it could be pushed to the users and updated so the information is current.

6. It would be nice if the EAA merchandise stores had minitures and models of the Experiemental and Amateur Aircraft. Heard lots of people wanting to buy one like a Sonex, Lancair, or a Vans.

[MEdwards]

My only negative experience happened when we went over to the Seaplane Base to have [what has always been] the best lunch at Airventure. We were SO very disappointed with Haase's service.I had to wait an inordinately long time for my hamburger at the Seaplane Base on Friday. But it was, as the server promised, the best hamburger I had at the show. I certainly dd not experience rudeness or anything remotely resembling what the poster above described.

The food vendors were different (and better in my opinion) and they were operating in an unusual environment with some probably unfamiliar staff. They likely did not have the experience to know that corn was "the thing" at the seaplane base, or that soft serve was beloved by so many on the flightline. I think we have to cut them some slack and come back next year to see if they don't learn from their experience this year.

[flyboycpa]

I had to wait an inordinately long time for my hamburger at the Seaplane Base on Friday. But it was, as the server promised, the best hamburger I had at the show. I certainly dd not experience rudeness or anything remotely resembling what the poster above described.

The food vendors were different (and better in my opinion) and they were operating in an unusual environment with some probably unfamiliar staff. They likely did not have the experience to know that corn was "the thing" at the seaplane base, or that soft serve was beloved by so many on the flightline. I think we have to cut them some slack and come back next year to see if they don't learn from their experience this year.

I can give them slack for not knowing about the "corn is the thing"; however, my biggest beef is that I was choking and the lady was so obviously disturbed that she was interrupted counting her tip jar despite my friend trying to get me water to relieve a choking situation (even after he told her!). That part I can't give any slack over, unacceptable.

Sam Swift

[krw920]

, or that soft serve was beloved by so many on the flightline.

It think all the A&W locations had soft serve vanilla cones available.

[RickFE]

This was my fifth Osh trip and 4th in a row this year. I really enjoy it.

Gripes would be

1. Wifi. As some of the others pointed out it was spotty or non-existent in the area of the N-40 I was in. That would be in the row abeam the EAA Tent Store/ and N-40 Cafe area. I don't need to keep in total communication with work, but I do have a few things I need to keep up with. Only takes a few minutes if I have access but turns into a bit of an ordeal if I have to bike to McD's. I did find that I could get wifi at the hospitality tent by the camp registration very reliably though.

2. I agree with others that some of the seminar titles could be better. I have been to a few seminars that were not at all what I would have thought they would be based on the title.

3. The next one I don't know what I could offer as a solution but I will toss it out anyway. Once the airshow starts it can be pretty tough to hear some of the Seminar presenters. It's like the Pavilion is right next to an airport or something! :rollseyes:

4. Last, I always thought it would be nice if the Vendors were open about until 6 PM vice 5 PM. Because I attend so many seminars I feel like I need to make a quick fly through a few times to really look. This year I just skipped a few seminars and took more time to look at all the goodies.

Overall my gripes seem small when compared to the overall level of fun I experience at Osh.

[scuba72]

As far as Wifi was concerned, I had decent reception in Camp Scholler on 11th between Schaick and Lindbergh. However the nanny filtering was irritating at times. Is the EAA now a nanny state and decides what we can and cannot see on the internet?

Biggest gripe was the bus service in Camp Scholler. While I am happy to have it and the drivers are the best, they seemed to get bunched up a lot more this year. In years past it happened early, but by the 2nd day they seemed to have it down. Several times I had to wait 15 or more minutes for a bus, then 3 would show up at almost the same time. The first bus was standing room only, 2nd about half full and the last only a few riders. I adapted to wait after the first bus and just waited a few minutes more for a more pleasurable ride.

I was looking forward to the food, but sadly disappointed when I got there. Elevated prices again. I again went back to my camp for a cheap sandwich for lunch. In my opinion the only place to eat other than the campsite is the Sacred Heart place outside the main gate. Decent price and good food.

[mmcgrew]

North 40 observations. North 40 cafe has great breakfast and friendly staff. Am I confused or did they park the planes different this year. I remember T type parking and this year it was single line wing to wing? This arrangement took more space for fewer planes. As a result N40 got full fast. Arrived Monday am and was parked along the fence next to Hilton - waaaay awayyyy from everything. Bus service in N40 was less than desirable. Seems they started late and quit early and during peak time they were full to capacity. I think the trams provide a better and quicker means of transportation than buses (trams load and unload quicker). Showers on the far side of N40 would be great. New shower house is very nice. How about some evening entertainment in the N40. An out door theater would be great. Also N40 very quiet this year - What happened to the late parties - Are we getting old?

[BeagleOne]

1. It was great to have the sessions at the innovation center on the forum list. We now need to continue to add all events to one schedule. The speakers at the War Bird and the Museum need to be on the list with the Forums and workshops.



There's a little free booklet available at all gates and at the official EAA merchandise tents and the Wearhouse, that has all of those in one place, with locations. I pick one up the first day and highlight what I want to see every day.

[Cary]

Showers on the far side of N40 would be great.Wasn't there a shower trailer there, like in past years? That's where I was parked last year, and it was conveniently located near the fence--and actually provided better showers than the new shower house.

On tail to tail parking in the North 40, that's the way it was done on the first Saturday when I flew in. All of the south side of the North 40 was packed by Sunday evening. But curiously, people started flying out as early as Monday, and by Tuesday there were many vacant areas, and yet instead of "refilling" them, the volunteer guides were sending airplanes to the north side of the North 40--there were vacancies in the row I was in all week. I suppose it's a little easier to do that, but in past years when I couldn't come until later, like on Tuesday or Wednesday, I was still parked in vacant spaces on the south side of the North 40.

On food at the Seaplane Base, Haase's North 40 Cafe was excellent--good and relatively quick service, friendly staff, excellent food--where else can you get a rib-eye steak sandwich for the bucks? But at the Seaplane Base, same vendor, but the food choices were more limited, and yet I have to agree, the hamburger I had was excellent, as was the potato salad. But it did take a long time in line, perhaps because they didn't have enough grills going. Most of the staff were pleasant enough there, but there was a largish woman who (whether she was a manager or not) acted as if she was in charge, and she was obnoxious, boorish, sarcastic (to both staff and patrons), and had I been "the boss", she would have been canned on the spot--there's no excuse for her behavior. So perhaps Haase's needs to be told directly that some of what they did was top-notch, but some very definite corrections need to be made for next year.

Still and all, the positives for me far outweighed the negatives, and so long as I can fly, I'll be there each year. There were so many improvements this year, and I appreciate that a lot.

Cary

[flyboycpa]

Wasn't there a shower trailer there, like in past years? That's where I was parked last year, and it was conveniently located near the fence--and actually provided better showers than the new shower house.

On tail to tail parking in the North 40, that's the way it was done on the first Saturday when I flew in. All of the south side of the North 40 was packed by Sunday evening. But curiously, people started flying out as early as Monday, and by Tuesday there were many vacant areas, and yet instead of "refilling" them, the volunteer guides were sending airplanes to the north side of the North 40--there were vacancies in the row I was in all week. I suppose it's a little easier to do that, but in past years when I couldn't come until later, like on Tuesday or Wednesday, I was still parked in vacant spaces on the south side of the North 40.

On food at the Seaplane Base, Haase's North 40 Cafe was excellent--good and relatively quick service, friendly staff, excellent food--where else can you get a rib-eye steak sandwich for the bucks? But at the Seaplane Base, same vendor, but the food choices were more limited, and yet I have to agree, the hamburger I had was excellent, as was the potato salad. But it did take a long time in line, perhaps because they didn't have enough grills going. Most of the staff were pleasant enough there, but there was a largish woman who (whether she was a manager or not) acted as if she was in charge, and she was obnoxious, boorish, sarcastic (to both staff and patrons), and had I been "the boss", she would have been canned on the spot--there's no excuse for her behavior. So perhaps Haase's needs to be told directly that some of what they did was top-notch, but some very definite corrections need to be made for next year.

Still and all, the positives for me far outweighed the negatives, and so long as I can fly, I'll be there each year. There were so many improvements this year, and I appreciate that a lot.

Cary

That's the same rude individual that I referenced in my post earlier. I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

Also, separate gripe....at KidVenture...where were the shirts for the kids to color? My boy was looking forward to his shirt this year...to no avail.


Sam Swift

[mmcgrew]

Wasn't there a shower trailer there, like in past years? That's where I was parked last year, and it was conveniently located near the fence--and actually provided better showers than the new shower house.

On tail to tail parking in the North 40, that's the way it was done on the first Saturday when I flew in. All of the south side of the North 40 was packed by Sunday evening. But curiously, people started flying out as early as Monday, and by Tuesday there were many vacant areas, and yet instead of "refilling" them, the volunteer guides were sending airplanes to the north side of the North 40--there were vacancies in the row I was in all week. I suppose it's a little easier to do that, but in past years when I couldn't come until later, like on Tuesday or Wednesday, I was still parked in vacant spaces on the south side of the North 40.

On food at the Seaplane Base, Haase's North 40 Cafe was excellent--good and relatively quick service, friendly staff, excellent food--where else can you get a rib-eye steak sandwich for the bucks? But at the Seaplane Base, same vendor, but the food choices were more limited, and yet I have to agree, the hamburger I had was excellent, as was the potato salad. But it did take a long time in line, perhaps because they didn't have enough grills going. Most of the staff were pleasant enough there, but there was a largish woman who (whether she was a manager or not) acted as if she was in charge, and she was obnoxious, boorish, sarcastic (to both staff and patrons), and had I been "the boss", she would have been canned on the spot--there's no excuse for her behavior. So perhaps Haase's needs to be told directly that some of what they did was top-notch, but some very definite corrections need to be made for next year.

Still and all, the positives for me far outweighed the negatives, and so long as I can fly, I'll be there each year. There were so many improvements this year, and I appreciate that a lot.

CaryNo shower trailer was gone this year

[Inspector Fenwick]

Our wait at the Sea Plan Base food line was 1.25 hours. It just did NOT move!! And I didn't want to bring it up, but I don't like seeing people carrying my plate (or your plate) of food from one side of their tent to the other, with a FREAKING CIGARETTE HANGING FROM HER MOUTH. Yes, she needs other employment.

[FlyingRon]

I suspect the Seaplane base like the Vintage Tall Pines Cafe is operated by volunteers rather than one of the food service outlets.
Still there's no excuse for that.

[I_FLY_LOW]

Our wait at the Sea Plan Base food line was 1.25 hours. It just did NOT move!! And I didn't want to bring it up, but I don't like seeing people carrying my plate (or your plate) of food from one side of their tent to the other, with a FREAKING CIGARETTE HANGING FROM HER MOUTH. Yes, she needs other employment.

Oh yea... If I saw that, I'd have told her to keep it...

[Chuck Arnold]

If folks can stand another comment about lawn chairs parked along the flight line with no owner in sight, I'll add this: Aren't they actually a bit of a hazard in the event of a sudden storm? Unexpected high winds are not unheard of at Oshkosh, and I really wouldn't like my airplane to be downwind of a hundred or so bouncing, flying lawn chairs. Isn't that reason enough to ban unattended lawn chairs?

[keen9]

This was my 24th Oshkosh, and certainly the tide has turned back this year. Improvements were evident all over the place.

The Good:
1) The quality of the food. With little to no increase in price, the quality of the food was dramatically better than Zaug's.

2) After several years of promises, finally, the vehicle traffic was actually reduced. I did not have a single issue with a car or golf cart the whole week. The only time I was worried about the mix of pedestrians and vehicles was after the Wed night airshow. There were so many people all leaving at the same time along with some vehicle traffic, but fortunately the cars near us were being cautious and courteous. I'd still suggest a 30-60 minute no drive time on the grounds after the night shows especially (the exodus is less sudden for day shows).

3) I loved all of the homebuilt (granted almost all RV) action in the airshows, but the part that was really excellent was the narration talking about Joe Shetterly's actually building his RV-8, and how you can do that too! It's like I was at an EAA convention or something! If we're going to let the masses into our convention they better leave knowing they can build an airplane in their garage, and this year that was true!

4) The trams were much improved this year both in not being part of the vehicle issue (were they actually encouraged to run people down in previous years?) and availability.

5) The generally attitude of everyone represent EAA was welcoming. The sense of the entitled few seemed to disappear from last year.

The Bad:
1) Where did the "Protect-Our-Planes" volunteers go? I saw lots of baffoonery around people's aircraft. Is it going to take an accident caused by crowd induced damage before more is done? I will never park an airplane of mine east of Wittman road unless is well south of the center.

2) The lack of garbage on the ground at OSH used to be one of the great wonders of the world. Alas, that greatness has passed. I saw some garbage last year, and now lots this year. I can no longer afford to stop to pick every piece I find up. Near some of the food areas that would take an hour per visit!

3) The service of the bathroom facilities used to also amaze me. Not so much this year. They were not always clean, and I was unable to start the process I wished to achieve at one of the large exhibit halls due to the entire facility being out of TP.

4) Had a forum that was accidentally canceled on learning to fly. Unfortunately, my wife was excited to attend (I've already learned to fly), but the forum location was accidentally canceled. It's too bad that there was not even an opportunity to reschedule the forum at another time.

The Ugly:
1) The chairs left along the flightline. Three months after the Boston bombing, and EAA has a kabuki bag check at the main entrance (come on, these are worthless), but allowed hundreds of folding chair bags to be left along the flight line. In high winds these can become missiles, and who knows which one may be a bomb. I was tempted to start carrying as many as I could to the lost & found. Any bag, chair, etc left unattended should be immediately removed. Any other policy is simply unacceptable.

2) Some of the food venders were not ready for prime time in terms of service. Monday we ate at the Vintage Cafe. Maj Goolsby's did not have a system for accurately filling orders depending only on the aggressiveness of the individual filling your order to grab the required item when it came up, and then when after several complaints we finally got the wrong item. It took another 10-15 minutes to get the right thing. They obviously fixed there issues or the forum would have been filled with complaints. Also had an issue at one of the A&W locations. It was clear that ordering a sandwich without fries was a recipe for not getting your order filled without complaint.

All in all, it was one of the better years for Oshkosh.

PS your all welcome for the good weather. Murphy guaranteed it when our groups wife's booked a house for the week after camping for 20+ years!

[FlyingRon]

The potential to blow unattended chairs in a storm was the justification we used to use to remove them from the flight line. However starting last year we were just told to lay them down. Frankly, your plane is likely to be crapped on by worse things than the lawn chairs. Twice I was the number #1 plane up on the flight line and the behavior of idiots out there is rephrehensible. Too bad they did away with POP.

Actually the food at Maj. Goolsby was pretty good and the several times I stopped in there I guess it wasn't busy enough for the service to be a problem.

[Mayhemxpc]

Could Keen9's wife be persuaded to book a house again next year? The whole family will be coming up to camp for the whole week and I sure would like a repeat of this year's weather.

[N222AB]

To follow up with Keen9...

The good:
1) I'll agree with the food improvement. Better selections and, based on my limited samples over the week, better quality.

The bad:
2) I also gave up trying to pick up garbage. I don't recall this being as big a problem before. Also, at times the garbage containers on the grounds seemed to get full to overflowing before WM emptied them at times.

3) Also agree with the restroom problems. This never used to be a problem.

The ugly:
1) What's the point of the cursory look at a few bags and backpacks at one gate? The people who looked at my camera bag each morning didn't seem to have much idea what to look for. Plus, they weren't there all the time. I think an event like Airventure is basically unsecurable. There are ten thousand things on the airport that could be used to bring something on site to do great harm. Annoying a few folks at the main gate doesn't do much except maybe satisfy some DHS mandate or dictate from the local police department.

Oh, and whoever at EAA was in charge of the weather this year - Great Job! :-)

[s10sakota]

Did anyone notice all the people smoking this year? I've never ever seen a smoker on the grounds before and this year, it seems like every corner I turned I was choking on cigarette smoke. Not on the flight line, but all the building around the tower. People sitting out smoking everywhere. Since when is this allowed?

[FlyingRon]

They used to have "NO SMOKING" on the wristbands but they changed it to "SMOKING IN DESIGNATED AREAS". The stupid thing is that there's no indication *ANYWHERE* what a designated area is.

[flyboycpa]

Did anyone notice all the people smoking this year? I've never ever seen a smoker on the grounds before and this year, it seems like every corner I turned I was choking on cigarette smoke. Not on the flight line, but all the building around the tower. People sitting out smoking everywhere. Since when is this allowed?

Yes, people were smoking everywhere. Each time I took my 7-yr old to the restrooms near the B-Bldg or C-Bldg you had to work your way through the fog of cigarette smoke. I'm not interested in my kid (or me) inhaling cigarette smoke. I don't go fart in your face, don't put your cigarette smoke in mine.

Sam Swift

[FlyingRon]

At least you can dodge that. What I could never understand is the people who smoke INSIDE the portolets.

[Mayhemxpc]

And from everything I saw during the week -- and from comments on another thread about the absence of Protect Our Planes volunteers -- there nothing to keep such people from smoking in the near proximity of the airplanes! I never saw it happening, but there was nothing and no one to inform people that it was both forbidden and genuinely dangerous. Just from the numbers, I am guessing that many more than half of the people attending are not pilots and they should not be expected to know about smoking and airplanes.

I was at another event some time ago, where my airplane which had, again, been over fueled. A couple of men came up with lit cigarettes. They looked the kind who came in on Harley's rather than in Pipers. As they got inside of the 50 foot circle I asked, "Would you smoke around a race car?" The light went on and I politely added, "Same fuel, same spillage problems." They were apologetic and immediately put the cigarettes out. It is not that many smokers are trouble in and of themselves -- they just don't know. Pilots are not always near enough to their airplanes to explain it to them.

[JimRice85]

Sure, we all know not to smoke around airplanes. However, if airplanes and smoking are apparently an automatic catastrophic conflagration, why did manufacturers build them with cigarette lighters and multiple ashtrays for several decades?

I used to smoke. I didn't smoke around the outside of the planes, especially when fueling. I did, however, smoke while flying. They ashtrays on top of the instrument panel of a Stinson 108 were really handy. :)

[Bob Meder]

At least you can dodge that. What I could never understand is the people who smoke INSIDE the portolets.

I was thinking what might happen if just the right, um, fuel air mixture was achieved in one of those...

[Bob Meder]

Regarding wifi, my suggestion to EAA is to look at whatever you did for exhibitors and try to replicate it for the public. As an exhibitor, I only had one problem connecting with either our PC, or my iPad, and that foe just a few minutes. Admittedly, the data rate was a bit slow (had to wait to get to the house to send pictures from our breakfast to our editor after transferring them from my DSLR), but for text and email, it was acceptable.

[mmorrison123]

I just got back from spending the week at Airventure 2013 and what a great time it was. I want to thank all the EAA employees and volunteers for all the hard work. Your dedication makes it possible for the rest of us to attend the worlds’ greatest aviation event.

This year I noted some improvements and firsts for me that I really appreciated. The food selection was greatly improved which was nice for those of us spending several days onsite. As always the number and variety of forums was tremendous. I really enjoy the flying at the ultralight strip, and the seaplane base. The list goes on and on.

However, there were a couple things that could be improved on also. First, the number of golf carts and gators was out of hand as was the speed that they were traveling. I understand the need to move supplies around the grounds and I have no issue with that. But many, if not most were being used to strictly for transportation. There were people roaming the flymart isles in golf carts doing shopping. There were families (mom, dad, and the kids) riding around through the crowds. People drove their carts into the crowd to watch the concerts. This really got under my skin and should be stopped. Additionally, all carts and gators need visible signs indicating who is responsible for them so that misuse can be identified and reported.

Second, this was my first year camping in HBC. I arrived on the first Saturday and was parked back in row 304 with my Titan Tornado. Part way through the week I got a new neighbor in a nice RV-8 who wondered why he was parked in the back with the rest of the odd ball aircraft since in past years they have reserved the front rows for the RV’s. I don’t know if that’s true, but you would be hard pressed to find someone that didn’t think that it was. RV’s are great and I would love to have one. They are the most popular kit aircraft ever and we all get that. But there are so many other designs being built currently and in the past and they are invisible in back of the mass of the Vans Air Force. I would really love to see the first 4 or 5 rows in HBC (closest to the forums) reserved for non-RV aircraft. This would help showcase the true variety of homebuilt options for prospective builders that can’t afford a Vans kit, and give the rest of us some different types of aircraft to look at. I had looked at the HBC area on past trips and assumed that it was an RV type only area, as I know others have. Let’s get some variety on display and show others that there are viable alternatives in the homebuilt arena.

I think that these improvements would make Airventure safer, less frustrating, more interesting for all.

Keep up the great work and I’ll see you in 350 days.

Malcolm Morrison

[Fastcapy]

I always enjoy Airventure, and have attended the last 14 consecutive years, and will continue to do so, but here are some things on my list this year.

Pros:
1. New food vendors were great!
2. Liked the jumbotron idea for stuff like Jetman
3. The Sunday airshow was awesome, better than I remember in years past. Team AeroDynamix (RV's) was great as well.

Now the Cons:
1. The reduced number of cars on the grounds was great, but the golf carts and gators...Yikes, like others said they were everywhere and ran around the grounds like a bunch of idiots...I felt I was always looking behind me so I wouldn't get run down.
2. The showcase mixed in with the airshow, yuck. The others in my group also were not pleased with the set-up of that. Also in the airshow arena, disappointed I didn't get to see Kyle Franklin fly Dracula.
3. WIFI was spotty, especially in the north parts of the grounds.
4. I saw a lot of people leaving garbage laying around and a lot more smoking than in past years.
5. Bag checks at the front gates were pointless.
6. On Sunday, Family day, so much stuff was being packed up by 10am. I understand the vendors want to get home but a lot of locals go that day and I think it is a turn off to getting local people more interested in EAA and aviation.
7. My biggest gripe. The north 40 buses. I hate getting on the bus only to stop to let 1 person off at a specific row, then the bus moves and someone else stops the bus literally 4-5 rows later...seriously annoying and creates a lot of congestion during busy times. I think 5 or 6 dedicated stops would make the north 40 bus run so much smoother. Stops at the gate, the showers, at the end of 9/27, Friar tucks, the Hilton and the Fire Dept. would get people close enough to where they need to get to. Mark the stops and make it so the buses only drop and pick up there, just like the trams on the grounds.

Can't wait until AV14!!!

[glefave]

I was there for 6 days, and agree that it was a grreat show this year, with some very nice improvements.

I think the bike path between the N40 and Camp Sholler has been a great improvement. But like others have mentioned the golf carts were a real hazard. The path is simply not wide enough for bikes , pedestrians, golf carts and motor bikes. This was not much of a problem before this year, not sure what put the carts and motor bikes on the path. This problem was worse at night, as the cart lights were blindingly bright.

[GroupW]

This was my first time, and I'm awed at how much work and thought went into putting on such a huge event. Great job!

I didn't find it very friendly for a first-timer, though. At the registration, I bought a program (turned out to be almost nothing but advertising), and among that and the other handouts were nothing that told what vendors were where, what seminars there were and when they were to be held, or a schedule of events. I asked a few people and was directed to the daily newspaper, but that gave only the day's events. Late on the second day I discovered, at one of the food stands as I recall, a program that showed all the information I was looking for. It would have been very helpful to me if I could have gotten that when I registered, and I would have gotten to see a number of things that I missed because of its lack. The map, which I was given at registration, was very helpful if a bit cryptic in places. If I go again some time, I'll print out the schedule of events from the web before I go, and bring it with me.

It was a long walk from the north 40 to the show entrance. The buses were often full so wouldn't take anyone, and the wait for the next one was usually longer than it took to walk. So I walked it most of the time.

In the north 40 I took only one shower because it was scaldingly hot. Not uncomfortably hot, but hot enough to burn. And no way or person to adjust it. I ended up using a T-shirt as a sort of wash cloth to let the water cool and then slosh it on.

In general, it seemed that it was assumed that everyone had been there many times before, and indeed just about everyone I met had. My one constructive suggestion is for the management to put themselves in the shoes of someone there for the first time, and consider how sketchy the available information is.

But for such a huge undertaking, it went remarkably smoothly.

Roy

[Cary]

I don't mean this in a condescending way, but next time, look harder at the contents of your bag--this year what everyone called the Flo Bag. I also had trouble knowing what was when and where all the vendors' booths were located. When I got home and unpacked, I finally looked through the Flo Bag in detail--and guess what? All that information was in one or another of the items in it! Granted, I'm a repeater, so it didn't hamper my experience very much not to know where and when things were in detail, but if I'd just looked, I would have known.

Of course, you could always do what a couple of ladies did as we rode together from the North 40 one morning. One of them asked me if I'd been there before and then said to me, "We aren't interested in airplanes at all--do you know where the crafts are?" I pointed in the general direction of the Fly Mart, where I knew there were craft vendors in past years and told her that's where they were, unless that was changed this year. (Gosh, I hope I was right!) Of course, then I kidded her about coming to Airventure but with no interest in airplanes, and she said that was their husbands' thing, so she and her friend just came along. I then suggested they might consider going to the museum, which even for a non-aviation person was pretty fascinating, and I told her about the Seaplane Base, which is just incredibly relaxing.

As for the showers, I took a shower each day at the new shower house and never found the water to be excessively warm or cool. I have learned, however, to take showers during times that aren't crowded, because I think the water temp then is more even. If you take a shower right after the morning rush, it tends to be hotter, but if you wait an hour, it's not quite as hot but really pretty comfortable.

Next time, use the trams to go from the North 40 entrance to the main areas--lots easier than using the bus, and the waits aren't all that long. They are seldom full going to and from the North 40 unless you try to get on mid-route, except perhaps first thing in the morning. You'll still walk a lot--that's a given--but perhaps not as much. I think the trams can be better marked, but once you know their routes, you can literally travel from one end of the field to the other on them, and stop everywhere in between.

For sure, come back--at this point I have spent the whole week the last 3 years, and I'm still missing things each year.

Cary

[FlyingRon]

I think it depends on where you bought your wristband. My pile of junk from registering in the camping registration did not include the newsprint forum schedule/exhibitors directory. Of course, having been coming to Oshkosh for many years I specifically asked for one after declining the "slick" program.

[Bill Berson]

This year, I received a full printed forum and event schedule with my wrist band registration. I had it on the iPad as well, but the paper was much better since I scribbled notes easily. At home, my itinerary was done on iPad in advance, but the forum itinerary was lost twice... So I gave up on the iPad.
The $5 program is unneeded.

[Mayhemxpc]

There are some important points above that should make your next visit more enjoyable (and I am always adjusting my my own approach each year.)

1. Plan in advance. The EAA website has the list of forums well in advance of AirVenture. Of course, things change up until the day of, but it is good to be prepared.

2. What is in the bag is nice, but not necessary. The AirVenture App has it all, with tools to show you where to go for what you are looking for.

3. In the morning, pick up the newspaper so you have something to quickly refer to and scribble on. Aside from that, there were some cases where the app did not keep up with the latest changes. The paper SHOULD have that.

4. Sorry about your experience in the showers. I used the ones at Warbirds and the on south side of the north 40. I have nothing but great things to say about the second location.

5. As part of item 1, above, ask questions on this forum! We are all (or mostly all) friendly people who would like everyone to have a great time at AirVenture (even our long-suffering non-pilot better halves!)

Somewhere else, it was suggested that EAA put together a "First Time at AirVenture" guide to help people plan their trip. This is a great idea. It is so great that I would be happy to help, if someone could point me in the right direction.

[rawheels]

Had a really great time this year and loved the cooler temps. I'm not sure why, but it really seemed to be more of a club event as opposed to a corporate one this year.

Here is my list of possible 2014 improvements:

1. Shorten the tram volunteer time to 3-4 hours per shift. I always appreciate them and planned on volunteering this year, but 8-2 or 2-8 seems like a lot longer time than any other volunteer job I've done in the past.

2. If you're going to sell all bottled drinks, make sure there are easily accessible recycle bins.

3. Vehicle traffic was a lot better than in previous years, but it can still be improved. I think the EAA volunteers and staff really made an effort this year, but the worst offenders seem to be the exhibitors. I saw a bunch at concerts, airshows, etc. It also seemed like they were the ones ignoring the restricted vehicle area signs and driving through the crowds. (Although the little "tell us how we're driving" stickers were a little small to read as they went by)

4. I have to agree that I noticed more smoking, liter, and full toilets than I've ever seen in the past. The absence of these items is has always been an amazing part of Oshkosh, let's figure out how to eliminate them again.

5. I went to visit the type clubs in the Vintage Barn on Saturday morning and found an empty room. I know people complain that people pack up too early on Sunday, but Saturday morning seemed way too early.

6. Sadly, the fly-in theater movie list is the item that I anticipate the most every year. Last year one night was very easy to skip because of the non-aviation movie that played. This year I only attended two nights. Please bring back the aviation movies (and old ads and WWII cartoons too!).

7. Bring back the orange volunteer shirts. It used to be very easy to pick out the volunteers out of the crowd (even if it was a previous year's shirt). I think that seeing all the orange shirts in the past made people realize how easy it was to volunteer, and want to do it themselves. The red, blue, & yellow ones have just blend into the crowd.

[FlyingRon]

2. If you're going to sell all bottled drinks, make sure there are easily accessible recycle bins.

I believe, despite the appearance of some cans marked as recycle, the entire show was single streamed this year.



5. I went to visit the type clubs in the Vintage Barn on Saturday morning and found an empty room. I know people complain that people pack up too early on Sunday, but Saturday morning seemed way too early.

The type clubs are staffed by more volunteers from the type clubs (except for the one which actually is a sham enterprise of the aircraft "manufacturer" that the EAA lets in there to sucker people). It may not be that they packed up, but they were doing other things.



7. Bring back the orange volunteer shirts. It used to be very easy to pick out the volunteers out of the crowd (even if it was a previous year's shirt). I think that seeing all the orange shirts in the past made people realize how easy it was to volunteer, and want to do it themselves. The red, blue, & yellow ones have just blend into the crowd.

THey're been different colors each year since they've started doing these. Actually, I don't ever wear the one given me. I don't feel I need to be a walking billboard for Bendix-King's obsolete and otherwise useless for Sport Aviation avionics.

[Ann S]

I suspect the Seaplane base like the Vintage Tall Pines Cafe is operated by volunteers rather than one of the food service outlets.
Still there's no excuse for that.


For the record, the food service provider at the Seaplane Base was not operated by Volunteers. Seaplane Base management became aware early on that the vendor was overwhelmed due to being new and consequently had Seaplane Base volunteers help them during a couple of busy periods in an effort to reduce wait time and stress on everyone. Seaplane Base management would like express their apologies to those who had a negative experience in any way. Please contact Paul Seehafer, Seaplane Base Chairman, 715-581-4381 with your concerns.

Ann Seehafer, Vice Chairman, Volunteer and Guest Relations, AirVenture Seaplane Base

[slin]

I didn't find it very friendly for a first-timer, though. At the registration, I bought a program (turned out to be almost nothing but advertising), and among that and the other handouts were nothing that told what vendors were where, what seminars there were and when they were to be held, or a schedule of events. I asked a few people and was directed to the daily newspaper, but that gave only the day's events. Late on the second day I discovered, at one of the food stands as I recall, a program that showed all the information I was looking for. It would have been very helpful to me if I could have gotten that when I registered, and I would have gotten to see a number of things that I missed because of its lack. The map, which I was given at registration, was very helpful if a bit cryptic in places. If I go again some time, I'll print out the schedule of events from the web before I go, and bring it with me.

Roy,

Like many others who replied to this thread, when I registered at the N40 registration, I had the visitor's guide in my bag. If it was not in yours (and it sounds like you also checked in at N40 given your comment below), perhaps it was an oversight! FWIW, you can also obtain the same document in .pdf form online in the weeks leading to the show. I don't usually print the whole thing since I'm cheap when it comes to wasting printer paper, but I do usually print a few pages - if this works for you, next year you could also print a few of the relevant pages.



In the north 40 I took only one shower because it was scaldingly hot. Not uncomfortably hot, but hot enough to burn. And no way or person to adjust it. I ended up using a T-shirt as a sort of wash cloth to let the water cool and then slosh it on.

We had our two daughters (ages 7 & 9) with us. If you thought it was hot for you, imagine how hot they thought it was! (Hint - it was not a fun shower time.) I agree it was scalding the first day we used the showers (must have been Monday morning since we arrived Sunday). But I know that a few people complained, and it was a little cooler Tuesday. On Wednesday it was almost too cool - made me wonder if two different people had heard complaints and made independent adjustments to the temperature! But in any case it was much better; I think the staff or volunteers responded quickly to the complaints of the hot water.

I realize none of this helps you as a first timer, but I think a lot of us are just trying to help with suggestions for future years.

In general, my wife and I both thought OSH was better than average this year. Of course the weather was awesome, but everyone - from tram drivers to food staffers to other attendees - seemed to be in a much better mood than typical. Maybe that was also because the weather was so nice! :) Or maybe it was because this year we attended Sun-Thurs instead of our typical Wed-Sat. It was so much better that I think we may adjust our schedules to attend the first part of the week going forward, just in case that was the cause of it!

[rawheels]

The type clubs are staffed by more volunteers from the type clubs (except for the one which actually is a sham enterprise of the aircraft "manufacturer" that the EAA lets in there to sucker people). It may not be that they packed up, but they were doing other things.

They weren't just away from the tables, the entire room had been torn down and all that remained were the stacks of folded tables in the corner and signs for each group hanging from the ceiling. I'm not sure if they use the building for an event Saturday evening or something, but it seemed odd to have it empty on one of the busiest days of the event.

[rawheels]

THey're been different colors each year since they've started doing these. Actually, I don't ever wear the one given me. I don't feel I need to be a walking billboard for Bendix-King's obsolete and otherwise useless for Sport Aviation avionics.

I've only been attending for 10 years, so I'm not sure how long the shirts have been around, but I know that I had orange ones from 2005-2008 and it seems there were older ones than those at the event. I'm pretty sure that 2009 was the first change in color (yellow) and I remember looking around when we got there and thinking what happened to all of the volunteers? If they don't want to go back to orange, could we at least get some day-glo or something that stands out in the crowd?

[Steve "Limey Owen]

The orange Volunteer shirts where not used again after they cause "issues" in the aircraft parking area's. All Volunteer crews working in Flight Line Operations be it Vintage, Home Built, Warbirds, N40 etc wear Orange vests. The mass of Orange Volunteer T's was confusing to pilots taxing. I do not believe there were any accidents, just a few near misses. They only used Orange once that I am aware of .That was in 2008 They used Yellow for 09 Blue 2010 and 12 Green?? 2011 Red 2013..

[Kevin O'Halloran]

Why do they even try to have forums while the Aero Shell team is performing ????
it is impossable to hear the speaker !!!!
they should have them perform first--and not schedule any forums at that time.
its a insult to the people trying to get their knowledge accross to the people attending the forum
Kevin

[cptomes]

Different kind of Gripe.

I tried to find a tripod adapter. 1/4" to 3/8" to mount a fluid head on a monopod for my daughter to use. My guess is that, during Airventure, more pictures are taken by more cameras than at any other time and place in the State of Wisconsin during the rest of the year. So, I thought, there must be a camera vendor here somewhere. I couldn't find one. I eventually drove to downtown Oshkosh, to Camera Casino, and just as they were closing for the day bought one, a $1.15 purchase.

I struck up a conversation with the salesperson, asked him why they didn't get a booth at the show for the week, there must be lots of business. He said they used to, EAA had been increasing booth fees every year, and demanded 35% of the gross sales. They would have had to increase their prices 50% just to break even. Booth fee of $7000?

I've never been involved in running this kind of huge convention, but it strikes me that there should be some differentiation between the out of state vendors who hop from convention to convention and sell at inflated prices because they are the only vendor at the show, and a local business in Oshkosh.

Whatever the "normal policies" are for trade shows/conventions, I don't care. I'm an EAA member, and this guy was unhappy with EAA. We need to keep Oshkosh residents and businesses happy to see us. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that I couldn't find a $1 tripod adapter at the highest concentration of cameras in the Midwest. When I heard the reason they stopped renting their booth, I was angry. EAA needs to stop being all about sucking every possible dollar out of exhibitors, visitors, and members. I understand that it takes money to keep all the programs rolling, but didn't this year's financial report show that we had an ADDITIONAL $2 MILLION in the bank? AFTER all the improvements to the grounds?

I'm not advocating we return to non-air conditioned sheds and dirt roads, but there's got to be a better equilibrium point than screwing the local Oshkosh businesses. Set some requirement, like business address in City of Oshkosh that's in operation year round, or something like that. Then, if an out of state carpetbagger wants to game the system to have EAA take a little less of their margin at least they have to pay rent (and someone pays state/local taxes) to someone in Oshkosh.

Please tell me this guy was exaggerating. 35% of gross and $7000 booth fee? Really? Now I think I understand why the exhibit halls were set up with walkways (the floor space that DIDN'T have booths...) in a grid and not long rows like every other trade show I've been to. We didn't have enough booths filled to do it. While I liked the ease of navigating, it struck me that exhibitors must have been down by at least 10% from previous years to allow that much open floor space. Is the economy that bad, or are we charging too much for booths?

[FlyingRon]

Airventure is *NOT* an entity to itself. The EAA relies on the profit from Airventure to fund both the EAA proper and the EAA Foundation (the museum and educational programs) for the rest of the year.

Having a mil in reserve (about one years budget from the show) covers if they get another disaster like Sloshkosh or the farking feds sucking a half-mil unexpectedly.

[krw920]

... Now I think I understand why the exhibit halls were set up with walkways (the floor space that DIDN'T have booths...) in a grid and not long rows like every other trade show I've been to. We didn't have enough booths filled to do it. While I liked the ease of navigating, it struck me that exhibitors must have been down by at least 10% from previous years to allow that much open floor space. Is the economy that bad, or are we charging too much for booths?

I am pretty sure Jack said they had the highest number of vendors ever this year, but I may have heard that incorrectly.

I do agree that local vendors be given some sort of discount to be on the grounds if they have a relevent product that members may be looking for.

[Holly Williams]

Hello Everyone,

I just wanted to touch base on the references to exhibits in the thread above. In the exhibitor sales department, we try our best to make exhibiting at AirVenture a rewarding experience for all exhibitors with various budgets and ROI levels. We offer many different options for all budgets ranging from the Fly Market to indoor space inside of our exhibit hangars. In 2013, we saw a record number of exhibitors with 821 that ranged from the Main Aircraft Display to Ultralight to our new College Park venue.

The floorplans for the exhibit venues were designed several years ago and have not changed in a few years. Hangars A, B and D have more of a straight aisle layout, where Hangar C (which was expanded a few years ago) has a layout that features more islands and exhibit spaces with three sides of frontage. These layouts were designed based on feedback from our business partners so that they receive more visability for their investment.

From a revenue perspective, we try to make participating in our event economical for everyone. That is why we offer a wide variety of venues based on the budget of the exhibitor. We charge a flat rate for their space based on square footage and we do NOT collect a percentage of sales. The revenue from all of our AirVenture Exhibits do fund many of the year-long programs that we offer through EAA. We try our best to reach out to local companies and organizations and will continue to do this in the future. We will also continue to create new ideas for exhibit venues like College Park, which is a great new addition to AirVenture and highlighted EAA's commitment to education and the future of aviation.

Best Regards,
Holly Williams
EAA Business Relationship Manager, Exhibits

[Hal Bryan]

I am pretty sure Jack said they had the highest number of vendors ever this year, but I may have heard that incorrectly.

That's correct - it was a record number this year:
http://www.airventure.org/news/2013/130728_record-number-of-exhibitors-at-airventure-2013.html

[CarlOrton]

Thank You, Holly, for providing factual data.

That said, I was not the original poster, I can see where it could be worthwhile to have some type of camera vendor on-site.

[Cary]

FWIW, the battery vendor (can't recall which building they were in) also had a lot of camera-specific thingies, in addition to an enormous number of off-the-wall batteries. While I was waiting, about 3rd in line, one of the customers ahead of me asked about a camera-mount, and they had it. When it was my turn, I was looking for a rechargeable battery pack for my 9 year old Vertex-Standard hand-held--and after rifling through a box, the rep found one!

I think that's the kind of vendor that belongs at Airventure--not the sellers of Egyptian sheets, pots & pans, folding ladders, and such. If I want to go to a generic flea market, then that's my call, but when I go to Airventure, I admit to some disappointment and annoyance when I'm bugged by hawkers of non-aviation stuff.

Cary

[FlyingRon]

Actually last year I was asking about a battery holder for a Vertex Standard at their booth and they just handed me one.

[Larry Lyons]

Love the show as always, no major gripes but some deficiencies, in my opinion. 1. We always camp on the flight line, about row 92 to get away from the loud speakers so the blue line is our home route. This year I rode it less then once a day as there were only 2 trams and they traveled in tandem. Yes there were buses but not nearly often enough. The bus drivers were very nice, polite! It was far quicker to walk to the hanger café where the rest of the tram service was very good all week! 2. No place to get a sit down evening meal. Think steak here. As we fly in and have no wish to try and find our way off the grounds in the evening we missed that meal at least twice a week. Other wise the food was good but ice cream was hard to come by because of the lines and it was not hot! 3. I saw more then one person smoking while wandering down the flight line. I can't remember that ever happing before. 4. No chair police so what I saw were a lot of chairs just waiting for an arriving aircraft to launch them in to flight. I have been hearing a lot of grumbling from some of your long time venders on your pricing the last few years, just saying. I know of several smaller venders as a matter of fact who just pass on this show as it is way expensive. L

[Jim Hann]

The orange Volunteer shirts where not used again after they cause "issues" in the aircraft parking area's. All Volunteer crews working in Flight Line Operations be it Vintage, Home Built, Warbirds, N40 etc wear Orange vests. The mass of Orange Volunteer T's was confusing to pilots taxing. I do not believe there were any accidents, just a few near misses. They only used Orange once that I am aware of .That was in 2008 They used Yellow for 09 Blue 2010 and 12 Green?? 2011 Red 2013..
Steve,
2007 & 2008 were orange, one of them is a dead ringer for our chairman shirts :-) . 2009 is yellow, 2010 is blue, 2012 is blue, 2013 is red. 2011 is the cloak of invisibility!

Jim

[Jim Hann]

I think that's the kind of vendor that belongs at Airventure--not the sellers of Egyptian sheets, pots & pans, folding ladders, and such. If I want to go to a generic flea market, then that's my call, but when I go to Airventure, I admit to some disappointment and annoyance when I'm bugged by hawkers of non-aviation stuff.

Cary
Cary, I will politely disagree because some of these things are needed for aviation. Folding ladder? Yep, I have a high wing airplane with no steps and my friend has a biplane that he religiously cleans the leading edges on. Cleaning materials? Always looking for something to make cleaning easier. I wasn't bugged by a single "hawker" the entire week at OSH including walking through the Fly Market where I expect the "junk" sellers.

If you ever want to see how bad hawkers can be try walking down Nathan Road in Kowloon, Hong Kong. Or walk into the Fenxiang (sp?) Costume Market on Nanjing Road in Shanghai, it is even worse! I layover in both cities for work, which is flying.

[Cary]

Yep, I have a high wing airplane with no steps and my friend has a biplane that he religiously cleans the leading edges on. Not to start an argument, but I'll bet neither of you needs a 24 in 1 ladder that can be an A-frame ladder, extension ladder, staircase ladder, 90 degree ladder, which can be part of a scaffolding system, which weighs from 24 lbs. to 39 lbs., all for only $199.95 to $259.95, depending on your choice of sizes, just to check your fuel level or clean off the bugs from the leading edges. My highwing airplane has no steps, either, but my old 2-step Aero ladder (the one with wooden steps) works well.

I don't deny that some of the non-aviation stuff might be useful for aviation, just that there's so much stuff that would be more at home at an ordinary flea market--or perhaps in Shanghai or Hong Kong. If I want to go there, I'd expect it; if I go to Airventure, I expect distinctly aviation-oriented merchandise, fuddy-duddy that I am. :)

Cary

[Jinkers]

Here is a little input from a 1st timer. I stayed in Camp Scholler near 13th and Lindbergh in my old Airstream. I had a great time and really have nothing I'd call a complaint, but maybe a few suggestions;)

First, I was incredibly impressed by the logistics. I have gone to concerts and festivals with only a fraction of a % of the attendees of Airventure that couldn't come close to AV's level of proficiency when it came to providing the basic needs. I gather from reading some of the posts here that this hasn't always been the case. I was particularly impressed that I never had to stand in line to take a shower or use a restroom or portable toilet. Never had to stand in line for more then a few minutes for food or water.

Suggestions:
1) I'll add to the request for better WiFi coverage.
2) It would be nice if the venders stayed open for a while after the afternoon airshow.
3) I was surprised that there was no interactive geo-referenced map app available. The Sporty's app was great but the map was static. I made my own using the Custom Maps app for Android but since the event map was not geo-referenced, position was only "in the vicinity". An interactive map that showed you where you where with the ability to select a destination such as a forum location and have it also appear on the map would be very useful, especially for 1st timers.
4) The trams were great but as previously mentioned there was a lot of confusion about which direction the trams were heading at certain stops.

[rawheels]

I think that's the kind of vendor that belongs at Airventure--not the sellers of Egyptian sheets, pots & pans, folding ladders, and such. If I want to go to a generic flea market, then that's my call, but when I go to Airventure, I admit to some disappointment and annoyance when I'm bugged by hawkers of non-aviation stuff.

Maybe there could be some effort to encourage all non-aviation related vendors to rent space in a single exhibit hangar? On the other hand, some of those vendors (like the ladder people) have been attending for a lot longer than me, and it is tradition that they are in the same place every year. I actually bought a CD from Jerry's One Man Band this year because each year seems like it is his last one coming, and it will feel weird when he is no longer on his corner.

Ultimately, those sellers won't return unless they are making money. So, somebody likes them and evidently there aren't more aviation related companies beating down the door to rent those spaces for the same price or the exhibit hangers wouldn't have empty spots.

[FlyingRon]

The exhibitors don't bother me. Unless we get back to the way it was prior to the construction of the new buildings where these NON-avation things DISPLACED real aviation vendors from the prime exhibit space (used to be quite a arcane way of allocating space that really disadvantaged some of the new guys). The fact that a lot of the big exhibitors (Garmin, Bose, etc...) have moved into their own Chalets in the square has opened up even more.

[Jim Hann]

I actually bought a CD from Jerry's One Man Band this year because each year seems like it is his last one coming, and it will feel weird when he is no longer on his corner.
This is definitely an anti-Gripe:

I was walking by and Jerry was on a break. I stopped and talked to him for a few minutes (I had bought a CD the day before). He told me he was overwhelmed by the number of folks coming up and telling him how much they enjoyed him being there! I added my thanks and a personal story about how his music almost brings tears to my eyes at times.

He is in his early 80s (83?) and is slowing down. He told me that last winter was the first one in years that he didn't travel down south (AZ/NM area) during the winter as the drive towing his trailer was getting too nerve-wracking. Of course with over half a million miles on the 1976 Dodge Van, I can only imagine the stories he could tell just about his drives.

He is a wonderful gentleman, not unlike Mr. Poberezny. I wished him well and didn't say good-bye but "until next time."

[Warbirdnerd]

Surprised no one has mentioned charging $18/day for passes for EAA Member's kids 6 and up. My Dad started taking me in the early 80s and I have only missed one AirVenture since then. There were years my brother and I each brought 2 friends and my Dad paid for everyone's addmission, but I doubt he would have at 18 bucks a pop. Take a look at other major airshows and nobody charges that much for kids.
Reno comes close $17/day for the Races on Saturday and Sunday, but only $5 for the days earlier in the week.
Wings over Houston $4,
CAF AirSho $5
Planes Of Fame Airshow $5
Dayton Airshow $15 at the gate $12 in advance.
For an Organization that prides itself on getting kids into aviation to charge that to get kids into AirVenture seems a bit outragous...
It will not keep me from bringing my kids and their friends, but it may limit how many days we all go to the show and how much we spend on food and other items on the field.
Bryan Darnell
EAA # 80374

[Zack Baughman]

Surprised no one has mentioned charging $18/day for passes for EAA Member's kids 6 and up. My Dad started taking me in the early 80s and I have only missed one AirVenture since then. There were years my brother and I each brought 2 friends and my Dad paid for everyone's addmission, but I doubt he would have at 18 bucks a pop. Take a look at other major airshows and nobody charges that much for kids.
Reno comes close $17/day for the Races on Saturday and Sunday, but only $5 for the days earlier in the week.
Wings over Houston $4,
CAF AirSho $5
Planes Of Fame Airshow $5
Dayton Airshow $15 at the gate $12 in advance.
For an Organization that prides itself on getting kids into aviation to charge that to get kids into AirVenture seems a bit outragous...
It will not keep me from bringing my kids and their friends, but it may limit how many days we all go to the show and how much we spend on food and other items on the field.
Bryan Darnell
EAA # 80374

Having two young boys of my own, ages 11 and 8, I'd like to address this. That $18 gives kids admission to the EAA AirVenture Museum, all the activities at the KidVenture tent (where numerous items can be made and taken home, such as a wing rib or small carved wooden propeller at no extra charge, an opportunity to fly r/c and control line airplanes, etc), all the workshop forums (welding, fabric stitching, etc), the air show, all the evening entertainment (concerts, movies, etc), and everything else. Granted, many air shows do not charge as much as EAA does, but then again, most air shows do not include in the admission price access to a world-class convention and all the activities that it encompasses. I know a lot of air shows include kids' areas now with inflatable bouncy houses and such, but at every other show I've taken my boys to that have had those types of activities, I've always had to pay extra for "ride" tickets for my boys. Here at Oshkosh, all of that is included in your AirVenture admission.

It costs me ALOT more to take my boys to a movie in the local theater than it does to take them to AirVenture for a day.

Zack

[gbrasch]

This was my 24th Oshkosh, and certainly the tide has turned back this year. Improvements were evident all over the place.




The Bad:
1) Where did the "Protect-Our-Planes" volunteers go? I saw lots of baffoonery around people's aircraft. Is it going to take an accident caused by crowd induced damage before more is done? I will never park an airplane of mine east of Wittman road unless is well south of the center.


PS your all welcome for the good weather. Murphy guaranteed it when our groups wife's booked a house for the week after camping for 20+ years!

Ben, I did a little volunteer work for them last year. Then a few months ago I got a letter from EAA that they were "reassigned" and asked if I was interested. I just stuck with my regular volunteer job this year. Glenn

[Bill Greenwood]

As for as lack of "protect our plane" volunteers, and "baffoonery" (think is should be spelled buffoon) around people's planes that he writes that he saw, I didn't see the problem. Nor did I see any other year.

I have been coming to EAA for 31 years and have never seen or even heard of a plane being damaged by the crowd there. Many of these years I have brought a show plane, sometimes two and never had damage to them from the crowd.

In 25 years of displaying planes at airshows, I have only had damage twice. Once at Oshkosh, a re enactor (?)was having his photo taken in the cockpit and he was a big guy. When he climbed out he accidentally stepped on and bent a cover for the trim tab that is on the left side of the cockpit. I didn't find it until I was making my next landing, and it was a momentary problem , but once safely parked I easily bent it back into place to free up the trim.
Once many years ago, I think in Omaha or somewhere in the middle of the country, I had a small hole poked through the fabric of the elevator. I didn't see it done, but was told that someone saw a kid do it with a pencil. Of course one can be angry about that, but it was easy to patch with a little duct tape, and later with a fabric patch, and never affected the safety or airworthiness of the plane.
That is all the damage that I ever got.

I have also never heard any of the pilots or owners at show briefings complain or even bring this up as a problem. Maybe in some other group like antiques it might be, but I haven't seen it.
For perhaps the last 5 years I have brought a Bonanza rather than a show plane and parked it in N. 40, where there are no "protect our planes" people and never had it damaged.
I have also parked at Fon du Lac at least part of the convention most of the last 3 decades and never had any damage done.
Maybe he knows of something that I don't, but otherwise it seems to me to be worrying about a problem that really doesn't exist. I do use a "please look, but don't touch "sign on the prop.
I have seen a lot of comment by others on this and other sites about how owners don't want people near their planes, just as some pilots give reasons not to do Young
Eagle rides, but that is not the way it has been for me. But then again, I like people, certainly when they are in a good mood like at EAA.

I have had lot's of fingerprints or noseprints on the canopy by folks looking in, but that is not damage and cleans off easily.

[I_FLY_LOW]

~snip~ Many of these years I have brought a show plane, sometimes two and never had damage to them from the crowd.

In 25 years of displaying planes at airshows, I have only had damage twice. Once at Oshkosh, a re enactor (?)was having his photo taken in the cockpit and he was a big guy. When he climbed out he accidentally stepped on and bent a cover for the trim tab that is on the left side of the cockpit. I didn't find it until I was making my next landing, and it was a momentary problem , but once safely parked I easily bent it back into place to free up the trim.
Once many years ago, I think in Omaha or somewhere in the middle of the country, I had a small hole poked through the fabric of the elevator. I didn't see it done, but was told that someone saw a kid do it with a pencil. Of course one can be angry about that, but it was easy to patch with a little duct tape, and later with a fabric patch, and never affected the safety or airworthiness of the plane.
That is all the damage that I ever got.


HUH???

[keen9]

Bill, the line you are attributing to Glenn is a quote from my earlier post. I have seen all kinds of buffoonery at OSH. Granted it usually doesn't cause damage, but airplanes are not tanks. In past years OSH has been very good as far as care of aircraft goes. This year, I saw no "protect-our-planes" volunteers, and I saw people climbing on airplanes, smoking next to airplanes, using a stab as a kitchen table . . .

Anywhere east of Wittman road and north of about the ultra-light barn is no where that I want my plane parked. Obviously in the N-40 and Fond Du Loc where the crown consist mainly of pilots and their guests is fine, but in among the masses is scary to me.

Sure OSH has been better than other flyins, but I'd like it to stay that way, and the trend at OSH has not been favorable to that.

[Bill Greenwood]

Keen9, I corrected the "Glenn" part. Thanks
If you only want to park south of the ultralight barn and west of Wittman road, then you exclude 90% of all the plane parking at EAA.
And I think you misread my post. When I brought show planes in previous years, I certainly parked them in show parking at warbirds or Aeroshell plaza. I didn't just park at the north 40 or at FLD. And I think the "protect our plane" thing is a relatively new concept in the last 10 years or so, and was not there when I began in 1983. Still no damage back then.

If people are smoking right around planes, then that is a problem and could be a disaster in a year when we had dry grass, but I haven't seen it, at least not on the part where I am which is mostly the north 2/3 of the field. Yes, I have sometimes seen people climb onto a plane, but rarely and after all, they are probably not the only one or first one ever up there. What if you own a T6, do you think no one has ever been on the wing? Even if not as polite as it could be, it is rare and I have not seen damage from it. I have also seen people move control surfaces when they shouldn't and that is not polite, but again they are not the first to have done it and no damage resulted.

As for someone using the stabilizer as a picnic table, I'd guess is was their own plane, and would have a hard time believing a stranger just walked up to a plane at random and spread out their food.
If you saw all these things, did you get any photos? If so, why not post them here as an example of what not to do?

P S if you were new to Osh and didn't know better, you might think someone with a hat that looked like a block of cheese was a buffoon, but not in Wisconsin.

[rleffler]

One trend that I know several folks in the RV-10 parking area have experienced, is that some folks think an open hole on the a/c is a place to deposit trash. Fortunately, in the cases I'm aware, the pilot found the trash during preflight.

p.s. Bill, where I'm from we think all Cheeseheads, Badgers, and Wolverines are buffoons! :D At least until the Rose Bowl is over.......

[GeorgeP]

My mate and I travelled from Australia to attend our first Oshkosh Airshow this year and we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. Great airshow, interesting people, and benign weather for the entire week - perfect! Before I go on, I must thank all the forum members who provided me with information during my pre-convention planning and preparation.
Right, now for the gripe. :) We are both pilots and keen photographers who prefer not to have too many people in the background or frame of our aircraft photos. I acknowledge that an airshow environment is not the ideal forum at which to aim for this result but we persist. When we fly 12,000 miles to attend an airshow, we put in alot of work to get a shot we're happy with. Our biggest problem is people walking between the camera and the subject whilst we are photographing. We jokingly refer to this type of person as a "pest". The worst type of pests are those who linger around the aircraft, inspecting every fastener and lap joint, oblivious to the fact that someone is attempting to photograph the aircraft.

My most memorable encounter with such 'pests' (it still makes me smile) ocurred on the last day when I was photographing a T6 over in the Warbird area. Picture this.... I was about four metres from the wingtip, about to press the shutter when an ex-military vehicle, complete with large calibre machine gun, stops between me and the aircraft. What the...... ? I cleared my throat a couple of times but they either didn't hear me or chose to ignore me. I patiently waited, hoping they'd soon move on, but they decided to call for reinforcements and motioned to one of their friends who promply arrived on a Vespa! All three closely inspected the T6 for about 5 minutes before moving on. I decided to photograph the situation and now share it with you. The faces and licence plates have been blurred to protect the guilty. ;) Many thanks to the organisers, volunteers, and participants for putting on such a great event. I hope to return in a couple of years.


3226
Let's check out the T6.

3227
Re-inforcements arrive.


3228
Patience is rewarded. :D

[mazdaP5]

Looks good! I've got the same problem, but I always consider that at some point, I'm someone else's pest, and patience is always rewarded. I also try to take photos where there are no portapottys in shot, but that doesn't always work out either.

[MEdwards]

That's pretty flagrant. But for every case of someone walking into my photo there were two or three cases where somebody stopped or ducked, often unnecessarily, so as to avoid my field of view. Often I'd wave them on with a smile and a thank you.

[Bill Greenwood]

George, I am not sure of the Jeep folks, but the man on the Vespa looks like one of our longest serving warbird parking volunteers.And next year if you come up about Aug, 5, there should be a lot more photos opps without people in the way.

[Paul8661]

George,

Everything is relative, to spectators wanting to look at planes the photographer is the pest. We bend to you, you bend to us...it's like a business negotiation, if both parties are unhappy it's probably a good deal.

Paul:cool:

[Kiwi ZK-CKE]

One odd thing I chuckled about was the airshow flightline volunteer who came down to ensure that not so much as a shoelace went past the flightline marker, (fair enough) but then stood 20ft or so in front of us during the Pearl Harbour sequence Taking his own photos (we were all sitting) so that every one of mine has him blocking the action.....
could post pics but dont want to run down a volunteer(even if it was really annoying)

[AlexC]

Being an amateur photographer myself, I can fully relate to George's gripes. However, it's really 'all in the game' and there's not much that can be done but to wait for the person obstructing your shot to move on, although sometimes it's just one after the other, in which case I usually give up and try again later. For instance, being very much a P-51 fan, I was very keen to get a shot of the newly restored Mustang in Korean War markings (with the sharkmouth) but it was constantly surrounded every time I passed it until late one afternoon towards the end of the airshow I found it clear, and thank you God I got my pic., which can now be seen on airliners.net!

[Mayhemxpc]

Go to the flight line shortly after sunrise or between the end of the airshow and sunset. Not many people and the lighting is awesome.

[FlyingRon]

One odd thing I chuckled about was the airshow flightline volunteer who came down to ensure that not so much as a shoelace went past the flightline marker, (fair enough) but then stood 20ft or so in front of us during the Pearl Harbour sequence Taking his own photos (we were all sitting) so that every one of mine has him blocking the action.....
could post pics but dont want to run down a volunteer(even if it was really annoying)

If this happened this year and you were south of the com shack (i.e. Vintage territory), let me know. We had problems with that past and there was an edict this year that the crowd control guys were not to be out there shooting photos. Most people tend to sit down anyhow but I can't do that. I'm allergic to whatever they treat the grass with there. Just incidental contact with that crap (a little around my ankles and the heal of one hand) hasn't yet recovered fully. I got it from the night airshow which was the only one I wasn't playing the supervisory role.

[FlyingRon]

Go to the flight line shortly after sunrise or between the end of the airshow and sunset. Not many people and the lighting is awesome.

Yeah, you actually have a lot of time between sunrise and maybe 8-9. Back when Canon was still a sponsor and being very proactive, they used to have led tours/photo lessons early in the morning like that.

[MEdwards]

Go to the flight line shortly after sunrise or between the end of the airshow and sunset. Not many people and the lighting is awesome. A friend and Mustang fan, another Aussie, photographed the P51s during that evening period a couple years ago and found one particularly great angle from under one Mustang toward the setting sun. Another photographer was in his way for several minutes and didn't move, though he wasn't working. Finally I asked him politely how long he was going to be, and he moved away immediately with apologies. Most people aren't trying to be pests, they just honestly don't notice you and are happy to accommodate if you ask them.

[Zack Baughman]

towards the end of the airshow I found it clear, and thank you God I got my pic., which can now be seen on airliners.net!

Any chance you could post a link to your photo? I'd love to see it.

Zack

[mazdaP5]

I do have to say, if people obstructing photos is our biggest gripe, EAA must be doing a heck of a job!

[GeorgeP]

I do have to say, if people obstructing photos is our biggest gripe, EAA must be doing a heck of a job! Spot-on! I cannot complain about any aspect of the whole show. It exceeded our expectations. :thumbsup:


..... Most people aren't trying to be pests, they just honestly don't notice you and are happy to accommodate if you ask them. Agreed - most people were very apologetic once they realised that they were standing between us and the 'plane.

We're looking forward to returning in a few years.

[AlexC]

Any chance you could post a link to your photo? I'd love to see it.

Zack

I've had problems posting links on here, but as I said it is on Airliners.net. Just type Alex Christie into 'keywords' and click on 'show me the photos' and you'll find it several photos down. Sadly this was my last Oshkosh AirVenture, and I'm sure gonna miss it!

[phavriluk]

Seeing as how Zack said that Responsible Folks actually read these comments, I'm repeating what I've said in years past, which didn't make a bit of difference.....Every year I use the showers in Camp Scholler, and every year I see that the broken coathooks are still there. None has been replaced since I first noticed the problem. Now, there's not enough coathooks anyway for all the stuff that needs hanging up when we shower. Surely when the shower rooms are inspected for serviceability pre-convention somebody actually inspects. Hard to miss all the broken hardware.

Second part of my observations on the shower rooms: Seeing as the crowd in the showers needs more coathooks than there would be even if the broken ones were replace, why don't we go the huge expense of putting up a few 2x4's and putting up a second row of coathooks in the shower dressing areas? Dirt cheap and a real quality of life improvement.

[phavriluk]

Another observation, not a gripe, particularly. I don't understand why there's a distinction among the trams. What happens if all the trams travel from Warbirds to Ultralights, stopping at all the stops? Such would make a trip from one end to the other a whole lot shorter in time, and a whole lot shorter in time between points in between the end points, too. And much reduce the frustration of waiting at a tram turnaround spot for a connection with another tram. Continuous shuttle, no waiting for transfers. Any passenger spends less time on the tram and more time at the convention, seeing the stuff he came to see in the first place. I don't know anybody who thinks time spent waiting for trams is any kind of happy convention experience.

[MNWORD]

I don't understand why there's a distinction among the trams. What happens if all the trams travel from Warbirds to Ultralights, stopping at all the stops? Such would make a trip from one end to the other a whole lot shorter in time, and a whole lot shorter in time between points in between the end points, too. And much reduce the frustration of waiting at a tram turnaround spot for a connection with another tram. Continuous shuttle, no waiting for transfers.

I agree what do the other members and EAA say?

[FlyingRon]

I think some of the stops were installed so that there was a guaranteed place to get on in busier times. Otherwise, the things fill up at the terminus and never pick up anybody else.

[Cary]

From the perspective of being a "regular tram rider", I think the present system works pretty well. Yes, there are waits if one wants to continue on north or south from the turn-around terminus, but generally they are not too long. There have been times when I wanted to go from whichever end of the airport I've been camped all the way to the other end, but for the most part, I've noticed that few passengers go the full length when I do. Most get off at the terminus and wander through the central area, just as I usually do.

I can't speak to the shower hooks problem, except to say that the showers for airplane camping have been just fine. I used the new shower house this year, but in the past I've used the old one and the shower trailers at the north side of the North 40, the Vintage area, and the "north Fond Du Lac" area, and all have been fine. I heard that the North North 40 one wasn't there, this year, which I think was a mistake, because a lot of folks get sent there. But the quality of the showers has been just fine.

Cary

[Bill Berson]

The tram terminals are confusing because no one knows where to stand and wait for loading. Each time you must ask the driver: "are you heading north or south?"

To avoid confusion, it might help if the loading trams parked toward the direction they intend to travel. And a simple sign with "NOW heading NORTH" on one side and "NOW HEADING SOUTH" on the other side.

[FlyingRon]

The signage could be better as I said. BOARD HERE FOR WARBIREDS (and perhaps a list of the interim stops of note), would be better than "PIPER TRAM STOP" which is all you get now.

[steve]

As much as the trams tend to bunch up now with the 3 routes during peak times, things would get much worse with a single route running between the North and South 40's. A dispatcher would be needed to maintain spacing and schedules.
I vote keep the current system.