FAA wants $500,000 or No AirVenture That adds up to $10,000 per AirTraffic Controller

[Wrongway Feldman]

My understanding is the FAA provides EAA AirVenture with one hundred FAA employees,
Fifty of them are actually performing Air Traffic Control tower duties.
FAA wants $500,000 for the one hundred FAA employees for the AirVenture week.
That would add up to $5,000 per FAA employee!
Or $10,000 per Air Traffic Controller for the fifty that are actually performing Air Traffic Control tower duties.
Why not tell the FAA to send the other fifty FAA employees home, that are not Helping Air Planes Land and save yourself $250,000

Sequestration can work both ways.

Below are links to Local News Stories on the topic:

WBAY TV 2 News, Video & Text (http://www.wbay.com/story/22506629/2013/06/05/faa-slaps-thousands-in-new-fees-on-eaa-airventure)

WLUK TV 11 News, Video & Text (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local/fox_cities/e-a-a-airventure-control-tower-troubles-not-over)

Postcrescent News Paper, Video & Text (http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20130604/APC0101/306040332/FAA-wants-500-000-no-AirVenture)

[TedK]

Yep... My quick math indicates a fully burdened rate for a Controller is about $3400 per week. Add in travel, food and lodging and $5000 seems about right.

Perhaps we simply should invite the President! Then we would get all the Controllers we could stand.

[Floatsflyer]

Perhaps we simply should invite the President! Then we would get all the Controllers we could stand.

Nah....then we'd have a no fly zone for 2 days! Wouldn't need ATC.

[TedK]

What if I offered him a ride? I have to fly past the DC FRZ anyhow to get to OSH.

Would that make my callsign "GenAv One"?

[rwanttaja]

What if I offered him a ride? I have to fly past the DC FRZ anyhow to get to OSH.

Would that make my callsign "GenAv One"?

No, it's "Executive One."

Ron Wanttaja

[snoskier1]

So, what I am really wondering is why the controllers for the show are paid, in the first place.

I thought the entire show was run by volunteers, with a few exceptions.

[rwanttaja]

So, what I am really wondering is why the controllers for the show are paid, in the first place.

I thought the entire show was run by volunteers, with a few exceptions.
Because they aren't part of the show. They're FAA employees, on temporary assignment. They volunteer for the assignment, true, but they're paid, receive travel and per diem, overtime, etc.

Ron Wanttaja

[wa6ilt]

AvWeb is reporting EAA has caved in on the demand. Bad move. EAA should have cancelled the show.

[Wrongway Feldman]

So, what I am really wondering is why the controllers for the show are paid, in the first place.
I thought the entire show was run by volunteers, with a few exceptions.
That is exactly what the FAA is missing! They don't get it, EAA AirVenture was built by Volunteers!

[scott f]

This has been a great discussion, especially on Ron's part - but I think we may be missing the forrest through the trees here, least from my rather simplistic way of looking at it.

From my point of view anyway, while I love Oshkosh and many of the activties I do with EAA, one of the biggest reasons I belong to EAA is to protect me from user fees (and all the other stupid stuff the FAA may come up with).

If EAA starts paying user fees - then there is no reason to pay them to protect me anymore. After all, why pay a bodyguard that is scared of bullies - Agree with them or not, groups like the NRA actually fight back over these type of issues and what I want..... what I need.... is an aviation group that does the same. And I do honestly mean that, if EAA pays, I quit.

Now some of the issues Ron has been spot on about and I fully realize that telling the FAA to go pound sand would result in some major operational issues. However, I bet in two months time we could hire some people, supplemented by actual volunteers, to do the same for less money. Sure the level of service would be down, arrivals would slow down. People would understand though, because finally we are fighting back. Would we lose some money - you betcha we would, but we would lose that money cause the organization was doing what it is supposed to do.

But - next year when we do it again we will have more time to prepare and we will be better. If we do not draw the line somewhere, this type of stuff will continue and it will only get worse, next what will I be paying for?

Think of it this way, the EAA tells the FAA to stuff it. Then we stick pirate flags all over the grounds to showcase this. At the base of each flag could be a collection jar to fiance both the shortfall of revenue and to pay for a law suit against the FAA for refusing to fulfill it;s safety mission and for what really amounts to extortion against the EAA. I bet we would collect ALOT of money. The theme of the whole convention could be standing up against an out of control government agency. Given everything else going on right now, the publicity for this would be endless. It would be the most interesting Airventure in a long time.

In the end though, We.. the aviation community and the EAA... stop acting like victims. You do have a choice, tell the FAA thanks, but no thanks, we can handle this ourselves. Man up EAA. You exist to protect our rights, not put on an airshow.


PS... if you do pay... and I do quit... think of this. Every year I pay for admission, camping etc despite the fact I volunteer during EAA at Osh and off times during the year. I sure as crud hope they make the FAA people, right up to the Adminstrator pay too. Oh and when I buy gas, what are my fuel taxes going to if EAA is footing the bill for ATC? Do I get them back? Are we charging the FAA G5 landing fees on it's constant shuttle back and forth to DC?

[martymayes]

The FAA is just bluffing. AirVenture will go on as scheduled with adequate gov. supplied staffing.

[trav8s]

EAA and AOPA need to make friends with ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association). The FAA would back off quick if ALPA threatened to have their pilots call in sick en masse on a certain day. It would get the point across. And I know there are a lot of Air Line and former Air Line pilots at OSH.
And I really never understand why the FAA wants to be so hard on GA anyway. Most airline pilots nowadays come from GA. Get rid of GA, so much for airline travel. Sure, most of the rest of the world has airlines with no GA. But guess where their pilots learn and train? It's like the FAA is biting the hand that feeds them.

[MickYoumans]

The last I heard, the senate (or at least some Senators) sent a letter to the head of the FAA and told them this was an unfair user fee since money for this was already budgeted to cover the event. Considering the scope of this event and the financial impact it has on the aviation industry this would not be a good move. I would love to see a list of which Senators supported and the ones that didn't. It would have an influence on who I vote for next election.

[Hal Bryan]

I would love to see a list of which Senators supported and the ones that didn't. It would have an influence on who I vote for next election.

Here you go:

http://www.eaa.org/news/2013/releases/2013-06-06_letter-to-faa-eaa-airventure.pdf

[Richard Warner]

Nah....then we'd have a no fly zone for 2 days! Wouldn't need ATC.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Maybe some idiot will tell him that there are 300,000+ people at Oshkosh and he should go there and make a money raising speech. Shut my mouth for even thinking that!!!!!

[MickYoumans]

Here you go:

http://www.eaa.org/news/2013/releases/2013-06-06_letter-to-faa-eaa-airventure.pdf

Thanks Hal ! I had not seen the letter but heard about it.
Their letter was exactly my thoughts on the issue. Maybe some of our politicians are good for something after all...well maybe. :)

[Floatsflyer]

The FAA is just bluffing. AirVenture will go on as scheduled with adequate gov. supplied staffing.

Maybe yes, maybe no but are you/EAA willing to put it all on the line and accept any and all consequences? The options available to EAA are few but all very tough calls. I would not want to make any of them. Let's hope the current political barrage of the Administrator provides the needed pressure to have the FAA back down.

[scott f]

I agree with Marty, I think they will back down. But, just like any other Playground Bully or Thief, you have to have the stones to stand up to them. You back down, he is just gonna shake you down for your lunch money again. For WAY too long we in aviation have been acting like victims. The cooperative approach to government relations may have benefited some personally, but it has done nothing but erode our privileges. Cooperate with a Bully, he still takes your money. Challenge him, he may beat the tar out of you, but he likely will leave you alone as you are no longer an easy target - I don't know about you guys, but I am sick of aviation being an easy target.

Even if the FAA does not back down the airshow could go on as planned with the normal tower staffing and the air boss system - those that would be effected most would be the people flying in for the convention (and yes I am old - I still think it is a convention). As most of the revenue generated comes from the airshow relating items there would not be a catastrophic hit to revenues. people could still fly in and I think they could safely, the arrivals would just be slower.

But, make no mistake about it - the biggest aviation lobbying group in the country paying for service sets a precedent. Lost revenue from the above is recoverable, setting that paying precedent will not be recoverable. Make no mistake, this is Chicago politics being used here, EAA best fight back with some of it's own.

While things may look bad, the FAA has actually given Mr Pelton a huge opportunity here. If he stands and fights, it will likely unite most of EAA with a new cause, few people will say he did the wrong thing by calling these guys out. I in fact think it will generate new membership. It will also send the message that we are not going to be an easy "cooperative" target anymore. Conversely, pay this blackmail money, well then you lose a whole lot of the respect you have earned this last year and the FAA will be back for more.

However I go back to my original refrain - I pay EAA to protect me from user fees and other stupid and sundry FAA stuff. If they start paying fees on their own, well I certainly am not wasting my money paying a bodyguard that is afraid of bullies. Stated differently, fight these guys I will donate generously, pay them and I quit.

[rwanttaja]

AvWeb is reporting EAA has caved in on the demand. Bad move. EAA should have cancelled the show.
Well... I can see that cancelling the show would cause a lot of problems. Issuing refunds for exhibitor spaces, some folks with non-refundable airline tickets, vacations already scheduled, having to cancel acts like Chicago, etc. I can certainly understand Scott's take on this, too.

One issue is that EAA just didn't have enough warning: Some of you probably saw Dick Knapinski's posting; he says that the FAA wouldn't confirm that EAA would be charged until EAA sent a delegation to DC to ask them point-blank in person. With less than three months to the show, they really didn't have enough time to work out an alternative.

But it's still almost 14 months until AirVenture 2014. That should be sufficient time to develop a alternative. EAA should announce something like "It's too late this year, but we're never going to pay it again" and start working on a alternative system. They'll have a year, and vendors/exhibitors/fly-in attendees will have plenty of time to decide if attendance would be worthwhile.

Most of you know, I'm a historical kind of guy, and there's a big slogan from 210+ years ago that I think is appropriate here: "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!" I'd like to see EAA dig deep and go it alone, vs. paying the FAA's extortion. But I think they need some time to set it up.

Ron Wanttaja

[martymayes]

Maybe yes, maybe no but are you/EAA willing to put it all on the line and accept any and all consequences?



AvWeb is reporting EAA has caved in on the demand. Bad move. EAA should have cancelled the show.

Well, looks like it's time to make alternate vacation plans. In the end, it's not EAA paying for this crap, it's EAA members. I won't be one of them.

[Hal Bryan]

Nobody has paid anything at this point. This situation is far, far from over.

[Bill Berson]

President Reagan fired all 12,000 controllers in the 80’s. Catastrophe was predicted,but didn't happen, as I recall.
Sometimes it takes a bold leader.

[Floatsflyer]

President Reagan fired all 12,000 controllers in the 80’s. Catastrophe was predicted,but didn't happen, as I recall.
Sometimes it takes a bold leader.

Catastrophe didn't happen because there was sufficient time to put a comprehensive, almost seemless alternative plan in place to avert catastrophe that gave Reagan the hammer to fire them. At the moment they were fired the plan to replace them with military controllers immediately went into effect. It's wasn't about being bold at all, it was having the time to carefully think about alternative action and implement it.

The EAA in the fight with FAA has not been given the luxury of time to plan contingencies. That's why the FAA has us by the short and curlies!(so far).

[Bill Berson]

It seems to me this FAA demand for payment in advance, with short notice before Airventure is extortion. Only the Mafia has had this power in the past.
I don't think EAA should set a precedent and pay extortion money. The entire country is at stake here, not just Oshkosh.

[Floatsflyer]

I don't think EAA should set a precedent and pay extortion money.

Not the case. If EAA pays, they would be following the precedent already set by Sun n'Fun.

[Jim Rosenow]

The entire country is at stake here, not just Oshkosh.

Careful, Bill. You're getting too close to the truth. They're cataloging your phone calls and reading your emails....I think we can assume they're everywhere!! Been nice knowing you!! LMAO..........I hope :eek:

Jim

[scott f]

Not the case. If EAA pays, they would be following the precedent already set by Sun n'Fun.

Not quite the same thing Floats... Sun and Fun is a corporation that exists to put on airshows. EAA while they put on an airshow is the 2nd largest Aviation Lobbying group in the country.

[Floatsflyer]

[QUOTE=Bill Berson;31406]It seems to me this FAA demand for payment in advance, with short notice before Airventure is extortion.QUOTE]

I honestly would go a step further and characterize it as financial terrorism. Perhaps we could get Homeland Security involved in this debacle.

[rwanttaja]

President Reagan fired all 12,000 controllers in the 80’s. Catastrophe was predicted,but didn't happen, as I recall.
Sometimes it takes a bold leader.
I'm reminded about the froorah regarding the airport closures earlier this year. The main response in the pilot community was, "Meh." So they took it back and found something else to attack.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

Not quite the same thing Floats... Sun and Fun is a corporation that exists to put on airshows. EAA while they put on an airshow is the 2nd largest Aviation Lobbying group in the country.

I understand the destinction, but like Sun n' Fun, EAA Oshkosh to a much greater degree, is not only concerned about the impact on a daily airshow but much more importantly, the impact on the tens of thousands who fly in as attendees.

[Bill Berson]

Lakeland was a bit different because it was part of a nationwide tower cutback. Oshkosh wasn't on that list, as far as I know. So why single out one airport? The answer, I think is the administration wants to target GA and the jet set. That's why this so important.
EAA should strongly push the grass roots image now!

Did the FAA promise to shut down the tower if payment was refused? What is the FAA plan if payment is refused?

[FloridaJohn]

Lakeland was a bit different because it was part of a nationwide tower cutback. Oshkosh wasn't on that list, as far as I know.
Oshkosh tower was, indeed, on the list of potential closures. However, I will agree that SnF was a bit different situation, because the tower closures and ATC cutbacks were scheduled to begin right around the same time as SnF was to happen. I think, given the circumstances, that SnF did the right thing. If you think the timeline between now and the Oshkosh fly-in is short, you should have seen how little time SnF had to act. If I remember correctly, they had less than a month to figure something out. Of course, as we all know now, after they agreed to pay the FAA, congress restored funding for ATC, but by then it was too late for SnF.

I do think, though, that they inadvertantly taught the FAA how to extract payment from large fly-ins: wait until the last minute to announce the fee, giving the fly-in little opportunity to stop it or form an alternate plan.


Did the FAA promise to shut down the tower if payment was refused? What is the FAA plan if payment is refused?
I don't think the FAA has formally said anything about the consequences of non-payment. That's why I would like to see EAA call their bluff. Is the FAA really willing to put lives at risk to get some money from EAA? Especially if safety is their "mission?"

[Bill Berson]

John, thanks for that correction.
I think EAA could tell the FAA that it's not EAA's job to collect user fees.
Another suggestion would be to reduce the hours at Oshkosh tower now (if possible), and save the money for when the tower is really needed last week of July. I don't have the operation numbers (by time of day)for KOSH.
Airnav lists 249 operations averaged of 12 months for KOSH.
Arlington (AWO) is listed with 367 operations and doesn't have a tower!
And my sleepy local non- towered airport (0s9) lists 159 operations average.

But average doesn't mean much. I think all towers should only be staffed as needed during peak hours.
Less tower hours also allows sport pilots a chance to fly in the off hours.

[MEdwards]

Pleased to see both of my senators signed the letter.

[malexander]

Pleased to see both of my senators signed the letter.


So did mine. But then again, I'm from OK and wouldn't expect anything less. Inhofe especially.:thumbsup:

[Mayhemxpc]

Careful, Bill. You're getting too close to the truth. They're cataloging your phone calls and reading your emails....I think we can assume they're everywhere!! Been nice knowing you!! LMAO..........I hope :eek:

Jim

Sadly, from the news of this past week, they ARE in fact doing just that.

I live in the DC area, and more and more often lately, when glancing at the headlines in a newspaper, it is hard to tell whether I am looking at the Onion or the Washington Post. Sometimes the confusion persists well into reading the story under the headline!

"FAA charges users for required safety already paid for by Congress. Government adopts profit-centered business model used by Enron."