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Pete Capani
05-17-2013, 04:11 PM
If an aircraft is ELSA-compliant, for example, a Sonex or Kitfox, must it be registered as ELSA or can it be registered as an EAB aircraft, as in the manner of an RV-7, for example?

Can an EAB aircraft that meets all of the requirements of ELSA be flown by someone exercising the privileges of Sport Pilot?

Thanks,
Pete

martymayes
05-17-2013, 04:38 PM
If an aircraft is ELSA-compliant, for example, a Sonex or Kitfox, must it be registered as ELSA

I don't think either of those examples are eligible for ELSA.


Can an EAB aircraft that meets all of the requirements of ELSA be flown by someone exercising the privileges of Sport Pilot?


Yes, if it meets LSA requirements, it can be flown as such.

Pete Capani
05-17-2013, 04:51 PM
Thanks, Marty. The second question to which you posted an answer is the more important of the two to me.
--Pete

CarlOrton
05-17-2013, 10:20 PM
Hi, Pete; I'm also in Ft Worth. My Sonex is registered as an E/AB, but I fly it using the privileges of Sport Pilot. The Sonex *can* be registered as an ELSA; several have been registered as such. Sonex recommends going the E/AB route as it makes it easier to obtain the repairman's certificate without having to take LSA maintenance classes.

Bill Berson
05-18-2013, 09:28 AM
Carl,
As I understand the rule, an Experimental Light Sport Airplane is only available to aircraft that have had one example airplane comply with Special Light Sport Airplane consensus standards.
As Marty mentioned, I don't think Sonex has SLSA approval.
Can you clarify?

p.s. the ELSA words were also used for transitioning ultralights, but that option ended in 2010,I think.

CarlOrton
05-18-2013, 09:59 AM
Sorry, Bill; don't have the data. I know for a fact that I've conversed with pilots who've registered one as such, but couldn't tell you whether that was at Oshkosh, Crossville (the big Sonex fly-in), at the Sonex Open House, or at a smaller regional event. I have no idea what the FARs say about the "one example" item you cite. For me, it was a no-brainer, so I went with E/AB and never even studied what it would take for anything else. Sorry if I added confusion to the topic.

Pete Capani
05-18-2013, 02:35 PM
Hi, Carl! If I built a Sonex, I would probably register it as EAB. As I get older, though, I don't want to risk busting my medical and never flying again. That's why I am interested in whether a pilot exercising Sport Pilot privileges could fly an EAB if the EAB did not exceed the performance or operational requirements of an ELSA. A ramp check would be the worst time to "find out." I also want the Repairman's Certificate for it. Could I visit you and your Sonex? Please let me know.

CarlOrton
05-18-2013, 03:20 PM
Rest assured, Pete, a sport pilot can fly an EAB that meets LSA specs. I have a PPL but fly without medical as a sport pilot. Come visit anytime. I'm at Spinks. Give a call at 999-5720 ( our local area code)

Bill Berson
05-18-2013, 03:24 PM
Yes, you can fly an E-AB Sonex using sport pilot priveledges ( if the Sonex qualifies under LSA definition).
It might be best to say it like this to the FAA ramp inspector: " this Sonex is Experimental- Amateur Built. It qualifies as a Light Sport Airplane. A medical is not required, here is my drivers license."

Note, the Sonex qualifies as an LSA, but it is not an ELSA. The ELSA if for kits that qualify.
The only ELSA kit that I know of at this time is the RV-12

Yes, this stuff is very confusing. If I got it wrong, please correct.

signed
Bill Berson (retired tech counselor)

Pete Capani
05-18-2013, 03:50 PM
Great, Carl! We live in south FTW just a few minutes from Spinks. Will phone you soon.....P

Pete Capani
05-18-2013, 04:03 PM
Thanks for your comments, Bill. Insightful information on a very confusing topic! I hope I can keep flying safely but, lately, I "tremble" every time I go to the AME for my First Class and I've decided that it isn't worth it for me to go for a Third Class, either. Am I correct in assuming that my ATP AMEL will qualify me to fly Sport Pilot?
--Pete

Bill Berson
05-18-2013, 04:24 PM
Thanks for your comments, Bill. Insightful information on a very confusing topic! I hope I can keep flying safely but, lately, I "tremble" every time I go to the AME for my First Class and I've decided that it isn't worth it for me to go for a Third Class, either. Am I correct in assuming that my ATP AMEL will qualify me to fly Sport Pilot?
--Pete
Yep, you are qualified for sport pilot, no sign off or anything is needed other than perhaps a new airplane check out
( recommended, not required) and the usual two year flight review is still required.
And don't forget the flight limits. ( day, VFR, 10,000 feet, etc)

Pete Capani
05-18-2013, 04:35 PM
10,000 feet max, no night nor IFR will be tough but still better than being grounded....

Bill
05-18-2013, 09:11 PM
10,000 feet max, no night nor IFR will be tough but still better than being grounded....

Its not 10,000 feet max for those of us here in the West. CFR 61.315 (11) says for sport pilot privileges and limitations "You may not act as pilot in command .. At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL or 2,000 feet AGL, whichever is higher." So, in these parts, that gets you a lot higher than 10,000 feet. In Fort Worth, you may be limited to 10,000 feet, but just head to West Texas or New Mexico and you'll able to fly much higher. Around here, I can go any where from 11,500 to 14,500 feet depending on where I am and still be legal under sport pilot privileges. So you can find yourself flying as a sport pilot and still needing supplementary oxygen.

Pete Capani
05-19-2013, 04:40 PM
That's at least something.....P

S3flyer
05-19-2013, 08:57 PM
And it's not strictly day -- an SP gets civil twilight which gains about 1 more hour of flying in DFW this time of year :)

martymayes
05-19-2013, 10:14 PM
Sorry, Bill; don't have the data. I know for a fact that I've conversed with pilots who've registered one as such, but couldn't tell you whether that was at Oshkosh, Crossville (the big Sonex fly-in), at the Sonex Open House, or at a smaller regional event. I have no idea what the FARs say about the "one example" item you cite. For me, it was a no-brainer, so I went with E/AB and never even studied what it would take for anything else. Sorry if I added confusion to the topic.

Carl, some E/AB airplanes have been registered as ELSA that are not eligible to be such. DAR's goofed. They are human. However, have to remember, under 49 USC § 44709, the administrator can reinspect an aircraft and issue an order to amend, modify, suspend or revoke the certificates. Not that they ever will but why have that hanging over your had?

CarlOrton
05-20-2013, 10:21 AM
Carl,
As I understand the rule, an Experimental Light Sport Airplane is only available to aircraft that have had one example airplane comply with Special Light Sport Airplane consensus standards.
As Marty mentioned, I don't think Sonex has SLSA approval.
Can you clarify?

p.s. the ELSA words were also used for transitioning ultralights, but that option ended in 2010,I think.Received the following clarification from Sonex themselves (from SonexTalk forum): "There is currently no method for certificating a Sonex as ELSA. Under the current regulations, the only way a Sonex could be certificated as ELSA would be if Sonex had an SLSA prototype and sold kits specifically based on that prototype. (This is the method Van's uses to certificate the RV-12 as ELSA.)
Sonex does not have an SLSA prototype (and at this point doesn't plan on having one) so there is no path to ELSA certification for a Sonex.
There ARE some sonex aircraft that were certificated as ELSA during the period right after implementation of the rule (during that time when ultralight trainers were being converted). This includes one of the Sonex factory prototypes. So you may see a few Sonex aircraft with ELSA airworthiness certificates, but they would all have been issued during that "open enrollment" period." <<end Sonex quote
So, as speculated by several, the Sonex a/c that ARE ELSA made it thru via the early loophole. But at least I feel better that I wasn't totally off-base on my reply! ;-)