Value of a Piper J-3F Cub

[joen6171b]

Looked at a J-3F today, I believe its a 1940 or 1941 Franklin powered. Been flown very sporadically over the last 10 years. It has been stored in clean dry hangar for the last 30 plus years. The Fabric is at least that old. Airframe looks solid from just a quick look. It is being sold as is without a current annual, the annual is out by 8-12 months. Just looking at the ads, its tuff to find an old cub for sale, most are recent restorations. My guess is somwhere around $15K, as it very well could just be a complete project waiting for a Continental C-90 to be installed.

Whats it worth?:confused:

[martymayes]

Joe, when you look at these planes, remind yourself to take out your phone and take a pic of the data plate.

You want to know what it's worth? Or, what can I get the owner to take for it?

[cluttonfred]

Joe, is there a reason that you assume that you'll need to change out the Franklin for a C-90? My understanding is that the Franklins are solid engines and that parts are not as hard to get due to the more recent (than the 1940s) Franklin production under licence in Poland (PZL-F).

[joen6171b]

I've flown behind a 65HP Franklin on a J-3, super smooth running engine. Best case, it works great and you keep running it as is. I guess it would be doing a disservice by modifying a original J-3F...

[jam0552@msn.com]

Thirty year old fabric won't last much longer than that even if its kept in a hangar. That should be your critical path. Add the ever increasing cost of materials and about a year of part time labor, and that's provided you don't find cracks, corrosion or other flaws in the structure once you uncover it. Add it to the cost to purchase the aircraft before buying it. If you look on Barnstormers.com, Trade-a Plane, Cub Clues newsletter, etc, you can get a rough ballpark of what a used running cub is worth on the open market. You may find yourself looking at something someone has already spent a fortune restoring. The best value is an already restored aircraft, provided you have documentation, photos and references to validate what kind of job was done. The next best thing is to do exactly that yourself, namely buy a project, tear it apart, rebuild, repair and cover it. The last, most risky is to buy a used covered aircraft and take your chances. This opinion from someone who has completely rebuilt 3 fabric covered aircraft, including a cob.
-Joel Marketello

[PA11]

Sounds like the consensus is that you're looking at a pretty awesome project plane. I'd start the bidding around $10k, depending on how the airframe looks.

[JimRice85]

Over on the Cub board, the consensus is a Cub you can fly home to begin a restoration on is worth about $20-25,000. If incomplete and not flying, the price goes down, but even a complete airplane is worth about $15,000 even if it can't be flown. There is value in buying a complete airplane, even if you can't fly it home. It gets really expensive buying components to complete one.

[joen6171b]

I agree with your assessment, I wonder if the Franklin detracts from the price at all. I'm betting some buyers will not want to deal with the Franklin.



Over on the Cub board, the consensus is a Cub you can fly home to begin a restoration on is worth about $20-25,000. If incomplete and not flying, the price goes down, but even a complete airplane is worth about $15,000 even if it can't be flown. There is value in buying a complete airplane, even if you can't fly it home. It gets really expensive buying components to complete one.

[JimRice85]

Franklins are an acquired taste for most folks. There are certainly many Cubs still flying with them, but many more have been converted to Continentals. Realize the J-3F and J-3C are different Type Certificates. Converting to a Continental requires an STC. Easily available, but additional expense.

Also, IIRC, the F model gross weight is only 1170# rather than 1220# which is another modification requiring another STC and more expense.

Franklins are really pretty good engines. They are ver smooth running reliable engines. Parts availability isn't as bad as some lead you to believe. Crankshafts are the biggest issues. If one has a recent overhaul with new crank, I wouldn't be too worried about it.

If you are wanting something with more power, an STC to a Continental is the way to go. If you are okay with 65hp, there is nothing wrong with the Franklin. Understand, though, almost all Wag-Aero and Univair parts which aren't universal are Continental specific...cowling and such.

I have a J-3C-65 with C-85-12 installed via logbook entry because it is on the TCDS.

[joen6171b]

The saga continues...

went over for a closer inspection today. Last annual 5-11. Hasn't been started in a year. Pulled it through to check compression, one dead cylinder. Primed it, fired up on the second pull. Scared me to death :) Dead cylinder not dead after a 10 minute run.

Looked in the wings with a light, look beautiful. Airframe looks to have zinc chromate on it, looks to be in good shape. It has sealed struts and new tires.

Now for the funny part. FAA website says its an "F". It's got the original engine on it that was installed from the factory, according to the logs, But some genius stameped a new piper data plate as a J-3L. Now I'm really confused.
He's asking $20k with a fresh rubber stamp annual from the guy that's been working on it for the last 30 years.....

The fun never ends

[jam0552@msn.com]

FYI only the type certificate holder can issue a new data plate, and they never do unless it is lost and you have a letter from the FAA. So if someone has affixed a new data plate that doesn't match the airworthiness certificate or registration, I would investigate that before buying it. A dead cylinder that comes alive after 10 min run is probably the result of a stuck valve. In any event that cylinder should come off for inspection/repair/overhaul before flight. If someone annuals this aircraft in the condition you're describing, I'd be very suspect.
-Joel Marketello A&P, IA

[martymayes]

"F" and "L" are different type certificates. Replacement data plate will have FAA authorization letter in the file. Looks like red flags everywhere.

[JimRice85]

In years past, over stamping data plates on J -3s was pretty common. The FAA even changed the airworthiness cert from one type to another (J-3F to J-3C, et al) when engines were changed. It is not at all uncommon to see on the pre -war Cubs. In more recent years, this hasn't been allowed, but in the 50s and 60s, it was more prevalent than most would believe...with FAA approval. I've seen FAA letters approving the changes to data plates and the issue of new AWCs.