Graduates of the Moulton Taylor School of Aeronautical Engineering((at MIT)

[Floatsflyer]

Just gotta love those Terrafugia guys. They haven't delivered a single production version of their long in development Transition flying car as yet but they took the time to put out a press release yesterday for a newly conceived design of a 4 place, plug-in, hybrid, electric VTOL flying car. The picture is very cool and Star Wars-like.

CEO Carl Dietrich said, "This is the right time for us to begin thinking about the future of the company beyond Transition development. We are passionate about continuing to lead the creation of a flying-car industry..."

Carl, IMHO, you, your team and your investors have to give your collective heads a shake. "...thinking about the future beyond Transition..." How can you think about the FUTURE when there has not been a PRESENT??!! "...lead the creation of a flying-car industry..." WHAT INDUSTRY??!!

I appreciate and applaud your visionary qualities and your innovational mindset. It's exactly what GA needs but you have drunk too much of the cool-aid. Your smarts and talents would better serve GA in some other productive capacity. I'm afraid I must defer to the words of Lou Grant when he said to Mary Richards, "You've got spunk....I hate spunk."

[skier]

Personally, I'm starting to see Terrafugia as the next Moller Skycar.

2946 2944

[Bill Berson]

I think EAA should not allow the sale of production order deposits at Oshkosh for any of these new designs until the 40 hours test period is complete.
I know EAA Sport Aviation magazine has (or had) a plans for sale policy with similar requirements.


This business model of selling deposits before the testing is done often results in problems when the aircraft can't meet specs. There is a strong temptation to get the product sold, sometimes with major safety problems.

This latest outlandish VTOL announcement from Terrafugia makes me wonder if they ever had any actual intent to sell a real product at all.

[MEdwards]

Sorry, but I think the title of this thread does a bit of disservice to old Molt Taylor. His Aerocar was real, it DID fly, and he received several honors including induction into the EAA Hall of Fame.

[steveinindy]

Just gotta love those Terrafugia guys. They haven't delivered a single production version of their long in development Transition flying car as yet but they took the time to put out a press release yesterday for a newly conceived design of a 4 place, plug-in, hybrid, electric VTOL flying car. The picture is very cool and Star Wars-like.

Why should we encourage them to spend time on flashy Photoshop marketing rather than actually producing a practical model of their proposed product? Personally, I don't "love those Terrafugia guys". What they are doing is a huge waste of some very expensive engineering education and it appears that they could have gone to a third rate school and come out with exactly the same business model and the same god-awfully Quasimodo-esque project that doesn't appear to be either a good car or a good airplane. I do have to laud them for apparently finding someone to give them a masters class in bilking people out of research and development funding. Then again, it isn't hard to get people in the aviation community jazzed up by tossing the words "flying car" into your proposal. You say that and people start seeing the sky full of these contraptions without consideration for the operational, training or support infrastructure necessary. It might "revitalize GA" but it also might make your local airport have congestion that makes O'Hare during peak times look like a lazy Sunday drive in the country or finally produce sufficiently high enough body counts to give the enemies of GA the impetus and ammo they need to shut us down once and for all.



Personally, I'm starting to see Terrafugia as the next Moller Skycar.

Yup...it's a gigantic Ponzi scheme albeit one organized by some very well educated folks who have learned to prey upon the adolescent desires of a lot of men to own a "flying car".


This business model of selling deposits before the testing is done often results in problems when the aircraft can't meet specs.

It just makes me think of the Ford Pinto with the Cessna 337 wings and tail welded on (well....sort of welded on).


I think EAA should not allow the sale of production order deposits at Oshkosh for any of these new designs until the 40 hours test period is complete.

Personally, I wouldn't want anything to do with the sales of them before the pass a full FAA certification and flight test (with no exceptions; either it passes the standard or it does not...none of this weaseling out of spin recovery, etc) AND until after I see how one of them holds up to an Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash test or two. My money is on that it would be fare somewhere between "Cirrus versus tree at Chapel Hill" (if you haven't seen the picture of it from the NTSB, send me a message and I'll e-mail it to you; it's probably too graphic on the seats and wing to just post it here) and "SmartCar versus 18-wheeler".

[steveinindy]

Sorry, but I think the title of this thread does a bit of disservice to old Molt Taylor.

Molt was a heck of an engineer. A little too pie in the sky or Quixotic in some of his professional pursuits, but he definitely was a bright guy and I would be happy if some day I am 1/100th of the designer he was on his not-so-great days. I agree that it's an insult to compare this abortive MIT monstrosity to the Aerocar which while it was a complete failure in the practical sense, it was a failure due to things other than it being a poor design which is what has been overlooked and caused all subsequent designers to meet a similar fate. What's that saying about those who fail to learn the lessons of the past?


His Aerocar was real, it DID fly, and he received several honors including induction into the EAA Hall of Fame.

Technically, the original Terror-fugly-ia has flown too. Not very well in my book, but it got off the ground.

[SBaircraft]

I agree that it was foolish to aggressively market such ambitious plans, after so many delays with the Transition. I’m not sure what they were thinking. That said, they aren’t the only aircraft designers to recently discuss autonomous VTOL. Pipistrel recently shared a conceptual design for a single-place, electric VTOL. Pipistrel has the credibility that Terrafugia lacks.

As an aerospace engineer, I used to work with unmanned air vehicles, including one VTOL project. On a small scale, autonomous VTOL has improved by leaps and bounds in recent years. Electric quadcopters can catch, throw, and balance objects. They can dance to music, play instruments, move blocks, assemble structures, and fly in formations. Just maybe… it is no longer crazy to consider flying a 170 pound payload, from a home, to an office.

In the meantime, I’m not holding my breath for a flying car anytime soon. I get around just fine, with much simpler solutions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z01s9u6OQfY

[Floatsflyer]

Sorry, but I think the title of this thread does a bit of disservice to old Molt Taylor. His Aerocar was real, it DID fly, and he received several honors including induction into the EAA Hall of Fame.

The thread title was never intended to be insulting or disrespectful to Taylor, rather the opposite is the case. It was meant in the vien of being desciples of and paying homage to Taylor. The various Transition prototypes have flown and been driven on roads for over 3 years. Terrafugia has solved many design problems and overcome certain challenges associated with the practicality and enginneering of flying cars that Taylor didn't or couldn't 60 years ago.

This new design announcement just greatly increases the already present sarcasm, skepticism, ridicule and credibility issues targeted at the company. And to add further flames to the fire, they are presently considering issuing an IPO. If that is successful the result will not endear future investors to GA.

[steveinindy]

Terrafugia has solved many design problems and overcome certain challenges associated with the practicality and enginneering of flying cars that Taylor didn't or couldn't 60 years ago.

Such as?

[Frank Giger]

Such as breaking the one million dollar barrier in blind investment funds.

[Floatsflyer]

Such as?

The reference was in comparison to the Aerocar: All the design, technology and engineering features that make it a self-contained unit that eliminates assemblies and disassemblies.

[Floatsflyer]

Paul Bertorelli, Avweb writer, in response to the press release, says he's flying car fatiqued. He appropriately uses the Texas oil patch phrase, "big hat, no cattle" as a metaphor to describe Terrafugia's current status and futuristic initiatives.

[Joe LaMantia]

Well if they do actually get passed the FAA and can meet highway safety standards I'll become a believer. I did post something about aviation and dreams on another thread recently, so I'll suggest a theme song for their marketing effort...."Meet George Jetson"! While Molt was successful in creating a vehicle that flew and could be driven, it wasn't a great car or a great airplane, but he was working on this when "The Jetsons" were the public model of the future. We have had some educational experiences since Molt's time, like Mr. Bede, Enron, and the recent implosion in the banking industry to help temper our passion for the future.

Joe
:eek:

[steveinindy]

The reference was in comparison to the Aerocar: All the design, technology and engineering features that make it a self-contained unit that eliminates assemblies and disassemblies.

Once they come up with something that does that and doesn't look like it was designed by someone who never realized that aesthetics play a huge role in marketability, then we will talk. That thing is a perfect example of why all mechanical and aeronautical engineers should be required to take aesthetics or art courses.


Paul Bertorelli, Avweb writer, in response to the press release, says he's flying car fatiqued. He appropriately uses the Texas oil patch phrase, "big hat, no cattle" as a metaphor to describe Terrafugia's current status and futuristic initiatives.

I want to buy Paul a beer or dinner for summing up my feelings on the subject so succinctly. You have a few true believers (and those looking to bilk the true believers), a lot who think "that would be nice but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it" and those who are like "Oh not this **** again!". I fall squarely in the latter camp not because I don't believe it could be done from an engineering standpoint. My disdain comes from the lack of a market and the impracticality of mass operations of such aircraft.

[Floatsflyer]

Once they come up with something that does that and doesn't look like it was designed by someone who never realized that aesthetics play a huge role in marketability, then we will talk. That thing is a perfect example of why all mechanical and aeronautical engineers should be required to take aesthetics or art courses.

It's not so bad looking, given the mission and intended use it meets the widely held school of thought professing "form follows function" quite well.

Now I happen to think that the Flight Design CTS is in the top 5 of the ugliest airplanes ever. I do not understand for one moment it's appeal and popularity. But what the hell do I know--it just happens to be the best/most selling LSA in North America. Once again proves the addages, "Nobody knows nothing" and "there are courses for horses and horses for courses." Translation: there's a market for everything. Must be why there are menus in restaurants.

[steveinindy]

This is true I guess. However, I will say that I agree that the Flight Design is ugly as well.

[SBaircraft]

Aesthetics are not stopping roadable aircraft. There's no point in making it sexy if you can't first get it to work. I wouldn't expect the first generation of practical roadable airplanes to be sexy... perhaps that will be addressed by the second generation.

[steveinindy]

Aesthetics are not stopping roadable aircraft. There's no point in making it sexy if you can't first get it to work. I wouldn't expect the first generation of practical roadable airplanes to be sexy... perhaps that will be addressed by the second generation.

We are already on the fourth or fifth generation. The issue is that it's a solution looking for a problem. That it can fly and drive is not the problem. Molt proved that quite well several decades ago.

[SBaircraft]

We are already on the fourth or fifth generation. The issue is that it's a solution looking for a problem. That it can fly and drive is not the problem. Molt proved that quite well several decades ago.

I meant the first generation of "practical" roadable aircraft, if we ever get there. There have been approximately 2,500 documented designs and we are still far from matching the overall utility of a conventional airplane.

I agree with you about the solution, searching for a problem. Imagine if someone invented a teleportation watch. It would completely eliminate the need for air travel and yet, many of the same folks would continue trying to make their airplanes drive! That said, I do believe there is a serious problem. There are about 2,000 convenient destinations for my airplane, and about 20 million drive-in destinations for my car. We do need better ground transportation solutions, but perhaps roadable aircraft are not the most feasible solution.

[martymayes]

Aesthetics are not stopping roadable aircraft. There's no point in making it sexy if you can't first get it to work.

The concept works. Problem is, when in flying mode, you have a poor flying plane and in ground mode, you have a very poor performing car. I think that will always be the biggest challenge regardless of how the vehicle looks in either mode.

I've been waiting for the ultralight crowd to develop a flying motorcycle. Still no joy......

[Floatsflyer]

I've been waiting for the ultralight crowd to develop a flying motorcycle. Still no joy......

Your wait is over...sort of--it's in development(aren't they all). Seems whatever your dreaming of, someone somewhere is already doing it.

http://www.samsonmotorworks.com/

[Hal Bryan]

I've been waiting for the ultralight crowd to develop a flying motorcycle. Still no joy......

Butterfly's Super Sky Cycle is real and has been flying and driving (and selling...?) for quite a few years:

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/sscycle.htm

Then there's the PAL-V...

[Jim Heffelfinger]

The same problem exists in the marine world. RE doing two modes well ( or not).
There have been several dozen attempts at making sailboats work like powerboats - or is it the other way around?
Here is one iteration. It uses water ballast to achieve monohull stability which makes it very "tender" (tippy)under sail and the tiny sail area assures poor light air performance. It is a poor powerboat because it has water ballast and blows through fuel pretty amazingly. This is a sales video and the truth is this boat does work - just so poorly it is a joke in both worlds. Do we see this happening with flying cars?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VunIRO_s4
jim