GA and the TSA.

[WingsAloft]

There has been a question I've been wondering over for some time, and that is; Do GA pilots have to ever go through the same TSA ritual as the commercial passenger? Forgive me if this is a stupid question as I am at "ground school" stage and I've never been on a commercial flight. Now I know thaf at least in some cases this is not the case: at nearby LYH one could go though the commercial terminal which has TSA, or one could go through one of several FBO's where one experiences the perfect level of TSA scrutiny (which is zero). But LYH is a relatively small commercial airport. So what if I wanted to go to Chicago O'Hare? Now I know that that would hardly be necessary---as a GA pilot I would typically have better options. But what if I did land at O'Hare? Could I theoretically find a FBO where I need not go through TSA? Thanks for your input!

[WingsAloft]

Incidently, if one could reliably avoid TSA by flying privately, then this would explain the apathy on the part of the decision/political class (has it come to that?) toward the misery inflicted on the masses.

[David Pavlich]

My understanding is that big hubs like O'hare, Atlanta, LAX and so on frown on the little guys in their airspace. It comes down to speed. While a guy in a Skylane is on final at 70 knots or so, the 757 behind him is "loping" along at 140 knots. I would think a very experienced GA pilot could work through it. Also, it's my understanding that in order for an occaisional hop into high density air space, you have to get a reservation of sorts to get you into the airspace.

And if you happen to make a trip to Canada, you have to land at an airport that has a customs greeting committee to get you cleared. At any rate, I would think that it would be wise to keep to non-towered, class C or D airports.

David

[WingsAloft]

My understanding is that big hubs like O'hare, Atlanta, LAX and so on frown on the little guys in their airspace. It comes down to speed. While a guy in a Skylane is on final at 70 knots or so, the 757 behind him is "loping" along at 140 knots. I would think a very experienced GA pilot could work through it. Also, it's my understanding that in order for an occaisional hop into high density air space, you have to get a reservation of sorts to get you into the airspace.

And if you happen to make a trip to Canada, you have to land at an airport that has a customs greeting committee to get you cleared. At any rate, I would think that it would be wise to keep to non-towered, class C or D airports.

David
What if I were in a Learjet? Do you think that I could bypass the TSA body gropers through an FBO?

[wacoc8]

There has been a question I've been wondering over for some time, and that is; Do GA pilots have to ever go through the same TSA ritual as the commercial passenger? Forgive me if this is a stupid question as I am at "ground school" stage and I've never been on a commercial flight. Now I know thaf at least in some cases this is not the case: at nearby LYH one could go though the commercial terminal which has TSA, or one could go through one of several FBO's where one experiences the perfect level of TSA scrutiny (which is zero). But LYH is a relatively small commercial airport. So what if I wanted to go to Chicago O'Hare? Now I know that that would hardly be necessary---as a GA pilot I would typically have better options. But what if I did land at O'Hare? Could I theoretically find a FBO where I need not go through TSA? Thanks for your input!

At KORD (O'Hare) and at KBOS (Boston-Logan) there is only one FBO on the airport.....Signature Flight Support. Signature has hired their own version of TSA to scan GA passengers and crews coming and going and charge you $50 in addition to the usual facility fees for the privilege. I know of no other GA facilities that use security to scan passengers or crew except for the gateway program when using KDCA, and then those are real live TSA agents (oh joy) and approved air Marshall's, who must ride on the aircraft when arriving and departing KDCA.

[wacoc8]

My understanding is that big hubs like O'hare, Atlanta, LAX and so on frown on the little guys in their airspace. It comes down to speed. While a guy in a Skylane is on final at 70 knots or so, the 757 behind him is "loping" along at 140 knots. I would think a very experienced GA pilot could work through it. Also, it's my understanding that in order for an occaisional hop into high density air space, you have to get a reservation of sorts to get you into the airspace.

And if you happen to make a trip to Canada, you have to land at an airport that has a customs greeting committee to get you cleared. At any rate, I would think that it would be wise to keep to non-towered, class C or D airports.

David

When flying to Canada you call CANPASS, which is Canadian Customs, before you takeoff. You give them all your info, airport of arrival, pax names, ect, and the Customs agents may or may not come out to greet you upon arrival. You then call CANPASS again upon arrival, they issue you a report number and off you go to do whatever it is you flew to Canada to do. You can even land at airports that do not have Customs available on the airport, if they approve. Just requires a phone call. U.S. Customs is much more restrictive, when it comes to airplanes, anyway.

[WingsAloft]

At KORD (O'Hare) I know of no other GA facilities that use security to scan passengers or crew except for the gateway program when using KDCA, and then those are real live TSA agents (oh joy) and approved air Marshall's, who must ride on the aircraft when arriving and departing KDCA.
Is this program voluntary?

[champ driver]

wacoc8 is correct about ORD, Signature has a metal detector at the door way leading in from the parking lot, but no full body scan or groping that I know of. It doesn't make any difference if you fly in there with a C-172 or a Lear, still the same amount of screening. Of course you're going to pay the higher landing fees and fuel prices than at some smaller fields. If you fly into a smaller field with airline service and an FBO, then those areas are kept separate, meaning if you walk over to the airline side of the ramp from the FBO, the airline ground people will have a fit over it. I haven't been to DCA in some time, obviously since before 911, but they used to be busy, but they're a ghost town in comparison now. The vast majority of corporate owners will not put up with the requirements of landing at a gateway airport and having an armed guard on board into DCA. Yes, that's mandatory!

[OldGunbunny]

Is this program voluntary?

No

[OldGunbunny]

Incidently, if one could reliably avoid TSA by flying privately, then this would explain the apathy on the part of the decision/political class (has it come to that?) toward the misery inflicted on the masses.

As Jim Nabors, in his persona of Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise!" You've figured it out. Yes, I guess I am being somewhat sarcastic, but Security Theatre (aka TSA) is there only to harass the masses.

[Mike M]

...what if I wanted to go to Chicago O'Hare???

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

go to that webpage, type in ORD and search for 100LL. you'll see why you won't want to go there very often. nor to any Signature FBO, which doesn't list it on their website but usually charges a ramp fee just to be there and sometimes won't waive it even if one fills one's tanks.


...Do GA pilots have to ever go through the same TSA ritual as the commercial passenger????

Yes, when operating out of a TSA'd terminal. including pt135 and pt121 pilots, unless they are scheduled crew with company+airport procedures to fast track them. some terminals still require all people going through the checkpoints to go through the same procedures. don't ask about the illegal immigrant ground service personnel who used faked documents to work for the contractors that deliver food, fuel, empty the toilets, shovel snow, trim shrubbery, fix fences, etc, etc...they often don't go through any checkpoints at all, but don't worry about them. not a problem. ignore the man behind the curtain.

as to the procedures YOU use as captain of your own aircraft - many of my friends and neighbors normally fly with their spouses, so the passenger has had a strip-search already. flying Young Eagles, we're much less invasive. up to you.

[WingsAloft]

No

Is this a national program, and if so, who qualifies for the honor?

[WingsAloft]

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

go to that webpage, type in ORD and search for 100LL. you'll see why you won't want to go there very often. nor to any Signature FBO, which doesn't list it on their website but usually charges a ramp fee just to be there and sometimes won't waive it even if one fills one's tanks.



Yes, when operating out of a TSA'd terminal. including pt135 and pt121 pilots, unless they are scheduled crew with company+airport procedures to fast track them. some terminals still require all people going through the checkpoints to go through the same procedures. don't ask about the illegal immigrant ground service personnel who used faked documents to work for the contractors that deliver food, fuel, empty the toilets, shovel snow, trim shrubbery, fix fences, etc, etc...they often don't go through any checkpoints at all, but don't worry about them. not a problem. ignore the man behind the curtain.

as to the procedures YOU use as captain of your own aircraft - many of my friends and neighbors normally fly with their spouses, so the passenger has had a strip-search already. flying Young Eagles, we're much less invasive. up to you.
So one can expect tsa harrassment procedures if the airport is big enough? The FBO's at LYH don't have this problem.

[WingsAloft]

wacoc8 is correct about ORD, Signature has a metal detector at the door way leading in from the parking lot, but no full body scan or groping that I know of. It doesn't make any difference if you fly in there with a C-172 or a Lear, still the same amount of screening. Of course you're going to pay the higher landing fees and fuel prices than at some smaller fields. If you fly into a smaller field with airline service and an FBO, then those areas are kept separate, meaning if you walk over to the airline side of the ramp from the FBO, the airline ground people will have a fit over it. I haven't been to DCA in some time, obviously since before 911, but they used to be busy, but they're a ghost town in comparison now. The vast majority of corporate owners will not put up with the requirements of landing at a gateway airport and having an armed guard on board into DCA. Yes, that's mandatory!
So whaf do these corporate owners do? Fly to smalker airports?

[WingsAloft]

As Jim Nabors, in his persona of Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise!" You've figured it out. Yes, I guess I am being somewhat sarcastic, but Security Theatre (aka TSA) is there only to harass the masses.

Then there is a pretty much effective way to avoid TSA, and these people have found the secret?

[WLIU]

Fly your own airplane and you will only see TSA if you choose to. I have flown my airplane all over the east coast and never had to even see a TSA uniform.

Interestingly, I went to Washington DC last year and decided to try the train from MA to DC rather than fly the airlines. Big seats, can get up and walk around anytime, all the food you want in the snack bar car, no need to turn off cell phones or laptops, and the train station in DC is within sight of the Capitol building and around the corner from the hotels. No need to rent a car. Compared to airport parking, TSA, cramped seats, etc., the train felt pretty good. Will do it again. Never thought I would say that in 2013.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[champ driver]

OK WingsAloft, let me make this perfectly clear. The DCA requirement to fly in there is ONLY for that airport and no others. This is no honor, it's a requirement that most are not willing to put up with. That's why I said that the FBO at DCA is a ghost town. The security at ONLY a few places like ORD and BOS is minimal from the full TSA procedures at airline terminals. Airline terminals and FBO facilities are separate and are NOT mixed at all. Like I said before, if you walk out on the ramp from the FBO over to the terminal area, they will blow a gasket. Now remember this is at small airports, where sometimes the FBO and terminal are nearby to each other, NOT like at any of the bigger airports where they're sometimes on the other side of the field. Yes, corporate owners sometimes fly to smaller airports, or in the case of DCA they may fly to Dulles instead, a much bigger airport, but no security.

[CarlOrton]

...snip... Airline terminals and FBO facilities are separate and are NOT mixed at all. Like I said before, if you walk out on the ramp from the FBO over to the terminal area, they will blow a gasket. ...snip... And, I believe, it's a federal offense to enter a ramp area from an unsecured location. Isn't that what they busted that guy for up in JFK last year when his boat sank and he swam to shore, hopped the fence, and proceeded to the terminal? (may be wrong about the boat thing...)

[martymayes]

It was a jetskier and the only thing they could charge him with was trespassing.

[WingsAloft]

OK WingsAloft, let me make this perfectly clear. The DCA requirement to fly in there is ONLY for that airport and no others. This is no honor, it's a requirement that most are not willing to put up with. That's why I said that the FBO at DCA is a ghost town. The security at ONLY a few places like ORD and BOS is minimal from the full TSA procedures at airline terminals. Airline terminals and FBO facilities are separate and are NOT mixed at all. Like I said before, if you walk out on the ramp from the FBO over to the terminal area, they will blow a gasket. Now remember this is at small airports, where sometimes the FBO and terminal are nearby to each other, NOT like at any of the bigger airports where they're sometimes on the other side of the field. Yes, corporate owners sometimes fly to smaller airports, or in the case of DCA they may fly to Dulles instead, a much bigger airport, but no security.

Thanks for making that perfectly clear, champ driver. I already knew that at some airports like my own LYH the main terminal and FBOs are separate, thus making the TSA treatment unecessary. I have visited both areas of that airport (the main commercial terminal and Freedom Aviation). I have seen the Citation owner saunter in like the TSA didn't exist and had a pleasant conversation with his wife. No TSA. No fuss. But this is tooooo good to be true. You just can't have that much freedom left in America. So my question is this: Could the average GA pilot who only flies to FBOs expect to avoid the TSA or some similar setup? Or does the TSA insist that FBOs (at larger airports?) also bodily traumatize its customers? And let make this perfectly clear, champ driver: I find it the upmost honor to be groped by one of our brave TSA officers, ever vigilant in the face of terror, leading us on to a brave new world; a safer, more predictable, restrictive existance.

[Auburntsts]

Most TSA regulations, policies, and procedures are aimed at air carriers and commerical operators. They have parameters that drive what level of security must be employed. At most GA airports, that aren't serviced by a part 135 carrier, the requirements are IMO pretty transparent to the average renter or aircraft owner. In my experience that means some kind of Airport issued ID. Once you get above 12,500 lbs aircraft GW, the security requirements begin to grow. Of course, the Airport Management and airport businesses (like FBOs) always have more to deal with and its exponential based upon airport population and number/type of operations.

Here's a website with lots more info:

http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/subchapter-c-civil-aviation-security

[champ driver]

The average GA pilot who only flies to FBOs (where else would you go?) will never have to deal with the TSA. In all my 25 years flying all around the country, including JFK, LGA, BOS, DCA, ATL, DFW, SFO, LAX and everything in between, I've only had to deal with the metal detectors at ORD and BOS, and then, only if you leave the building towards the car parking lot. Now lots of FBOs have the door locked to the ramp and you only need to get the girl behind the desk to push the button to let you out to your plane. That's all there is. Now, if you liked to get groped, well, everyone needs a hobby.

[OldGunbunny]

Then there is a pretty much effective way to avoid TSA, and these people have found the secret?

Well, 'these people' and those of us who fly GA.

[steveinindy]

So one can expect tsa harrassment procedures if the airport is big enough?

No offense but judging by your posts, I have to ask the following: Have you ever tried going through a security checkpoint like you are something other than royalty who deserves to have his feet kissed? I fly commercially A LOT for my job (almost weekly...often more frequently when conferences are common in addition to crashes to go to). I have had one really bad experience with security procedures and that was the fault of the jerk behind me in the queue and not the TSA's fault. I've never been harassed, probed, poked, groped or otherwise abused or whatever you want to classify it despite that I set off the metal detector every time I go through because of orthopedic appliances in my foot and bullet fragments in my chest wall. I've always found the TSA agents to be professional and more often friendly than I did back in the days of "private" security at airports.

Plus, more than once, I have been pulled aside to answer why I have an actual human skull in my carry-on luggage.

Should be go towards the Israeli approach to security? Yeah....probably. Is what we have now less than ideal? You bet your butt. But I think it is made so much worse by people like yourself who whine, gripe and try to make themselves seem too important to be inconvenienced. One of my recent flights went through DCA and the person ahead of me in line was one of our senators. He never asked for special treatment, the agent didn't seem to recognize him and was treated just like the rest of us as it should be. I guess it's one of those matters of how one is brought up in terms of their attitudes towards the world and their place in it.

In other words....try being nice to the TSA folks and you'll probably find that they are a lot less likely to have a bad attitude given to you. I mean, it's the equivalent of cussing out a cop and not expecting to get a ticket. Even if you view it as an "honor" to be groped, etc...you still come across as a snob. Not sure if that is accurate or not but as my first sergeant used to like to say "When dealing with people who aren't scientists, perception is reality"

[skier]

I dropped a friend off at JFK in a C-172. There was never any reason to see the TSA.

As mentioned you will frequently need to get someone to unlock the door for you to access the ramp, but that's just someone sitting behind a desk.

[MEdwards]

No offense but judging by your posts, I have to ask the following: Have you ever tried going through a security checkpoint like you are something other than royalty who deserves to have his feet kissed?Well, apparently you didn't read all the OP's posts, like his original post where he said: "Forgive me if this is a stupid question as I am at "ground school" stage and I've never been on a commercial flight."

Consider his questions from that standpoint, and maybe you'll be a little more helpful to him.

[steveinindy]

Consider his questions from that standpoint, and maybe you'll be a little more helpful to him.

Then my advice still stands: Don't judge the TSA by what you hear and go in with the attitude that they are decent hardworking folks who have a rather unpleasant job because of the jerks (the public) they deal with. I mean, we've all heard what people say about light aircraft and choose to ignore it and rely upon our own experiences so why should this be any different?

I apologize that I came across as a little harsh but I just came back from a business trip and saw the exact opposite of what everyone talks about so far as the TSA is concerned, so the repeated use of inflammatory language based upon hearsay about these folks struck a nerve I actually was putting together a thank you e-mail to make sure the three TSA agents I saw at Memphis who were on their lunch break when the lady in front of me tripped. They stopped, got up and came over and helped us get her up. She wasn't hurt badly (at most a sprained ankle) but they insisted on being nice to her and getting her a ride on one of those indoor golf carts they have zipping around the airport. One of them rode with her, my fiancee and myself to make sure we all got where we were going (two separate gates not anywhere near each other mind you). I spent my first career working in public safety (EMS and fire) so I can tell when someone is just going through the motions and when someone is doing something because they genuinely want to help. These two men and one lady reflected pretty well upon their colleagues and upon the airport as a whole.

Sure there are a few jerkwad TSA agents. There are few jerkwad members of this forum (myself included a fair amount of the time), smart aleck cops, cranky nurses, whiny clerks, egotistical pilots, etc. Whenever I hear someone complain that they were mistreated by the TSA or any other service personnel, I immediately want to know what they did to provoke it because probably 95% of the time, the person griping is the person that started the mess in the first place. Keep that in mind when you hear someone talk about how bad they were treated...

[WingsAloft]

Steve, all I did was ask about TSA at FBOs, with a little nationally felt frustration thown in for lagniappe. That is not a bad thing. I think I speak for many Americans when I say I am dismayed at our country's rapid progress toward a police state, where we are compelled to always be ready to show the State that we have "nothing to hide". That is not whining. You say people like us make it worse when we try to make it harder for us to be inconvenienced---but what about people who try to make government intrusion go easier and smoother?? And you have the chutzpah to say people like us walk around around feeling like royalty expecting our feet to be kisssed? Okay, we'll take it, because, in reality, we are royalty and we citizens do deserve to have our feet kissed by the government, and not vice versa. I feel I have alot of other voices in unison with mine when I say there is something wrong when we are told to think it an honor to bear being prodded, or our duty to kiss the TSA's...feet.

[WingsAloft]

Judging from the posts so far, I see that GA pilots and their families and friends could travel without a need to go through TSA. This is important because I've got (highly polite) friends/relatives who've had terrible experiences with the TSA and knowing that they'll be willing to fly with me around the country will be something to look foreward to as I earn my certificate.

[martymayes]

Judging from the posts so far, I see that GA pilots and their families and friends could travel without a need to go through TSA. This is important because I've got (highly polite) friends/relatives who've had terrible experiences with the TSA and knowing that they'll be willing to fly with me around the country will be something to look foreward to as I earn my certificate.

With all due respect, the inconvenience of dealing with TSA for 3 min prior to a trip is hardly a reason not to travel by airline.

I think your friends are going to be less than impressed flying around the country at 110 kts in a 172 with a private pilot, or sitting in a podunk FBO for 2 days waiting for VFR weather so the trip can be completed (or if you're in the N.E. in the winter, sitting 2 weeks, lol). The old adage, "time to spare, go by air" will never be more true.

[David Pavlich]

Ummmm....I was in Winnipeg when the underwear bomber struck. I was in the security line for 2.5 hours, got a full pat down (hands against the wall), our flight was delayed, we missed our connection in Chicago and didn't get home until late night (was supposed to be home around 1PM). Airline flying is NOT fun anymore. Granted, your description of VFRing it around the country isn't attractive either, but a picture of blissful travel in a 737 is a thing of the past. Correct lotto numbers and NetJets. That's the ticket! David

[OldGunbunny]

With all due respect, the inconvenience of dealing with TSA for 3 min prior to a trip is hardly a reason not to travel by airline.

I think your friends are going to be less than impressed flying around the country at 110 kts in a 172 with a private pilot, or sitting in a podunk FBO for 2 days waiting for VFR weather so the trip can be completed (or if you're in the N.E. in the winter, sitting 2 weeks, lol). The old adage, "time to spare, go by air" will never be more true.

Actually, it's the 3 minutes with TSA, followed by hours dealing with the airlines and their employees that made me decide I'd rather fly or drive myself, that I really didn't need to go commercial air any longer.
I fly a 172 all around the country and have a great time doing so. I have no need to arrive before I take off, so a 172 is adequate. An instrument rating takes care of the clouds and I've only run into icing about 3 times in 10 years or so.

[WLIU]

I agree that the total airline experience has gone way downhill. Flying VFR around weather can still be a more satisfactory experience and given the way that airline flights are delayed or cancelled due to weather around hubs, a VFR guy often has the opportunity to do better than the airlines when you figure door to door time if the destination is under 600 miles away.

The thing that I find horrible is that we see or hear about awful incidents, which in a private company would not be tolerated by an employee, and the TSA just issues a press release saying something like "appropriate procedures were followed". Near as I can tell TSA is just theater and any real threats are taken care of or prevented by other agencies. But that discussion is for another thread.

Fly GA - You can keep your shoes on.

Wes
N78PS

[CarlOrton]

*snip*
Fly GA - You can keep your shoes on.

Wes
N78PSI grin every year at Oshkosh when I see the T-shirt that reads (and I can't recall EXACT words): Oshkosh: All of the planes, none of the TSA.

[Wilfred]

I might have posted a comment like this someplace before, but here goes:

The TSA gives superficial training to new employees, gives them a uniform AND A BADGE, and calls them OFFICERS !!!! What a sick joke !

[martymayes]

I fly a 172 all around the country and have a great time doing so.

I'm all for that, no further justification required.

Learning to fly so you can run a quasi airline with no TSA....that's hilarious.

[steveinindy]

Correct lotto numbers and NetJets. That's the ticket! David

With the current baggage fees, we are actually looking at whether it would be cheaper to travel to investigations by charter flight. I can tell you I hope it works out because it would be much nicer. Having access to deep pockets to fund your work is nice...


I'm all for that, no further justification required.

Learning to fly so you can run a quasi airline with no TSA....that's hilarious.

LOL Now to hit the lottery so I can buy, maintain and operate something big enough to actually get around on business trips.

[martymayes]

With the current baggage fees, we are actually looking at whether it would be cheaper to travel to investigations by charter flight.

Cheaper? Not much to look at. The answer is no.

[steveinindy]

Cheaper? Not much to look at. The answer is no.
I'll show you our equipment list and the weight list for our gear over dinner or beers some time. I think you're underestimating the amount of stuff we need to carry with us. Plus have you ever seen the cost of trying to book flights for two to four people with just a few hours notice? LOL

The other advantage is that it would be quicker. No waiting for the commercial flights to start moving in the morning if we have a crash after like 8 pm our time. Either way, I don't really care since I'm not paying out of my pocket...

[WingsAloft]

With all due respect, the inconvenience of dealing with TSA for 3 min prior to a trip is hardly a reason not to travel by airline. I guess that's true for someone okay with the possibility of getting a finger in their underwear.


I think your friends are going to be less than impressed flying around the country at 110 kts in a 172 with a private pilot, or sitting in a podunk FBO for 2 days waiting for VFR weather so the trip can be completed (or if you're in the N.E. in the winter, sitting 2 weeks, lol). The old adage, "time to spare, go by air" will never be more true.
Nah. My friends can't wait for me to get my license, uh, certificate so I can take them to one of several different popular eastern beaches. By car the trip is upwards of 5 hours. By Warrior---less than 2. And I guess the South would afford better weather then the North...at least till Summer! (man it gets HOT!) And I can always upgrade to IFR and a plane such as the upcoming Synergy. Oh, the places we'll go!

[martymayes]

I guess that's true for someone okay with the possibility of getting a finger in their underwear.

Yes, because that possibility is zero.


Nah. My friends can't wait for me to get my license, uh, certificate so I can take them to one of several different popular eastern beaches. By car the trip is upwards of 5 hours. By Warrior---less than 2. And I guess the South would afford better weather then the North...at least till Summer! (man it gets HOT!) And I can always upgrade to IFR and a plane such as the upcoming Synergy. Oh, the places we'll go!

You'll need a lot more "upgrading" to do the things you propose.

[WingsAloft]

Yes, because that possibility is zero. .
You're wrong: people have reported fingers up their underwear (and worse) many times.

[WingsAloft]

You'll need a lot more "upgrading" to do the things you propose.
You've never flown a Piper to a beach?

[martymayes]

You're wrong: people have reported fingers up their underwear (and worse) many times.

No, I'm not wrong.

[WingsAloft]

No, I'm not wrong.
Yes, they most certainly did. Including a mild-mannered school teacher I know.

[martymayes]

You've never flown a Piper to a beach?

Well, in the interest in keeping the horse before the cart, lets get lesson one under our belt before worrying with Sunny Beach Airlines.

[martymayes]

Yes, they most certainly did. Including a mild-mannered school teacher I know.

So they filed a police report?

[WingsAloft]

Well, in the interest in keeping the horse before the cart, lets get lesson one under our belt before worrying with Sunny Beach Airlines.
Marty, you are so right. Fact is, I am not a pilot. Yep. I am NOT a pilot. Marty? I'm not even a student pilot! Hah!

[WingsAloft]

Whoa, who do I think I am, anyway? How do I dare challenge an FAA certified pilot, anyway? Well, well; I think I should retire to my cloister and study my little beat-up copy of Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge!

[martymayes]

Whoa, who do I think I am, anyway? How do I dare challenge an FAA certified pilot, anyway? Well, well; I think I should retire to my cloister and study my little beat-up copy of Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge!

It's great that you're getting a head start reading the PHAK. It's great that you're participating in aviation forums. Sure wish I could have done that when I was a student pilot (BTW, you are a student pilot as soon as you start studying the art and science of flying, no license required).

[WingsAloft]

So they filed a police report?
I dunno. She and her husband (retired, in their 70's) were traveling during the Thanksgiving season...even her husband was disturbed (at seeing his wife discomforted, that is). But the agent was a jerk, anyway. There are rude people in any profession. It's not as if groping is specifically outlined in the TSA's SOP. But anyway, she said she looked for a "customer complaint area" (she thought the airport was a commercial entity that was responsible) and couldn't find one (and they were running late). On the return home she did make a point to approach a TSA person but they said something like "sorry ma'am about that" and "don't worry I don't think that'll hapoen again" and "we've had some complaints like that and someone's bound to remember the guy's name and file something" (she could not tell the officer the guy's name).
This was two or three Thanksgivings ago when the TSA was employing their "advanced search techniques" or something to that effect. I remember that November because one of my hobbies is listening to talk radio and everyone was mad.

[WingsAloft]

It's great that you're getting a head start reading the PHAK. It's great that you're participating in aviation forums. Sure wish I could have done that when I was a student pilot (BTW, you are a student pilot as soon as you start studying the art and science of flying, no license required).

Thanks.Ten years ago I bought Flight Simulator 2002 which had a "library" feature with alot of magazine articles in it. The first one I read was "Town and Country Caravan" ( the title tickles me to this day). As I read it I thought, "hey, these people are really neat. I'd love to get to know alot of these folks and do what they do..."