I am with the FAA this is a Ramp check.

[1600vw]

If you hear this from someone what documents must this person carry?

In other words can anyone from the FAA do a ramp check and can someone do this just because they do not like you?

[martymayes]

Lots of fascination with ramp checks lately......

If they haven't shown me already, I ask for the inspectors credentials, FAA Form 110A. Then I ask if they are ops or maint., if they are maint. I "accidentally" show them my A & P cert. first. This always lightens the mood then I present whatever they ask for and answer any questions they ask. After they take down the info they need, I usually ask a few questions and that's it. Never have any issues but then I keep my ducks in a row.

[Pearson]

Marty,

I would not show them anything they didn't ask for. The more you show them, the more they will dig. Of course, keeping your ducks in a row is the best policy. But you never know when they might find one that is out of line. I have never been ramp checked while operating part 91. I have had many of them while operating commercially. In almost every one of them the fed was just checking off squares on some kind of form to show he had performed a ramp check. Most of the time any questions were asked they pertained to deferred maintenance items.

[RV8505]

Lots of fascination with ramp checks lately......

If they haven't shown me already, I ask for the inspectors credentials, FAA Form 110A. Then I ask if they are ops or maint., if they are maint. I "accidentally" show them my A & P cert. first. This always lightens the mood then I present whatever they ask for and answer any questions they ask. After they take down the info they need, I usually ask a few questions and that's it. Never have any issues but then I keep my ducks in a row.

I have alot of interaction with the maintenance Feds and for the most part they are helpfull annd knowlegeable. Before I go to work I make sure my certificate is close at hand and I have all of the paperwork in order ( Maintenance Manual Refrences, MEL list, Aircraft Manuals and FAA 4313 ). You need to back up everything you do with a refrence. You need to be able to talk about your work inteligently if questioned. Sometimes if the company is giving me a hard time about parts I would call the local maintenance Feds and have them just drive around the ramp:). The skys clear and and people start thinking right! The only people that have to fear the Feds are those who ignore established good practices, look like they have something to hide and or Rude. Like pearson said, Don't show them anything they don't ask for.

[1600vw]

I am asking as a student just trying to learn more. So any body working for the FAA can give you a ramp check? Do they do these ramp checks at private airfields?

Again and I am making sure my ducks are in a row. I just want to make sure whom every tries this with me has thier ducks in a row also.

If a cop comes up to me and he is not in uniform I want to see ID. If someone wants to see my Pilot certificate I want to know whom is asking, and do I have to show my certificate to anyone whom asks to see it?

[Joe LaMantia]

1600vw,

I can't address "private airstrips" but if your just a basic Private Pilot, SEL, Fixed Gear and Prop you probably won't get a ramp check for a long time. I've been flying for over 20 years and have had only one at my local municipal airport. The FAA "inspector" was really coming out to see the FBO/Airport Mgr, who hand all kinds of certificates. He owned 2 Skyhawks, a Stearman, T-6, and a Piper Apache which he used to charter for several local businesses. He had all the pilot credentials through ATP along with the A&P certificate and Inspections stuff. I just happened to have rented one of the Skyhawks that Sunday morning and the FAA inspector was sitting around drinking coffee when I finished my flight and brought the keys into the office. I had my logbook with me, since my medical certificate is kept in a littler plastic baggie stapled to a blank page in my log book. My FAA plastic license is in my wallet, so the guy was happy just paging through my log book checking to see when I was due for my next bi-annual. When he was finished, about 10 minutes, I decided to ask him for his ID and his initial response was to check out the govt. plates on his car. The FBO Mgr, (also my flight instructor) laughed at my request and said he had known this guy for years and he was out on a "boon-doggle" from the Columbus FSDO! Just carry the basics and keep yourself "legal" and like the other postings just answer his questions. This ramp check thing is no big deal!

Joe
:cool:

[Tlim486]

The basic's they can ask for: AROW but can include more

The inspector is authorized to inspect:
√° The airworthiness certificate.
√° The aircraft registration.
√° The operating handbook.
√° The weight and balance information.
√° The minimum equipment list (if applicable).
√° Aeronautical charts (for currency).
√° The general airworthiness of the aircraft.
√° The ELT battery.
√° A VOR check.
√° The seats/safety belts.
AOPA suggests cooperating with the inspectors, and the following may help reduce the time and scope of the inspection:
√° Be courteous and cooperative.
√° Be busy; FAA inspectors are not authorized to delay you for any great length of time.
√° Do not volunteer more information than is absolutely required.
√° Keep in an easily referenced location at least the following information:
o Your medical and pilot certificate.
o Logbook (only for student pilots).
o Airworthiness certificate (displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance (91.203[b]).
o Aircraft registration.
o Approved flight manual or operating handbook.
o Weight and balance data.
o Current charts appropriate for flight (VFR and IFR).

[1600vw]

The basic's they can ask for: AROW but can include more

The inspector is authorized to inspect:
√° The airworthiness certificate.
√° The aircraft registration.
√° The operating handbook.
√° The weight and balance information.
√° The minimum equipment list (if applicable).
√° Aeronautical charts (for currency).
√° The general airworthiness of the aircraft.
√° The ELT battery.
√° A VOR check.
√° The seats/safety belts.
AOPA suggests cooperating with the inspectors, and the following may help reduce the time and scope of the inspection:
√° Be courteous and cooperative.
√° Be busy; FAA inspectors are not authorized to delay you for any great length of time.
√° Do not volunteer more information than is absolutely required.
√° Keep in an easily referenced location at least the following information:
o Your medical and pilot certificate.
o Logbook (only for student pilots).
o Airworthiness certificate (displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance (91.203[b]).
o Aircraft registration.
o Approved flight manual or operating handbook.
o Weight and balance data.
o Current charts appropriate for flight (VFR and IFR).


I take it some of this stuff is opp. Meaning I have no electric system so I do not need an ELT correct.

I ask this question because today I am located at a field with an RC club. This RC club has had this field to themselfs for many many years. Now I have come on the seen and the old timers do not like it.

By the converstation they had with me yesterday I believe a ramp check is in my future. They really do not like me.

[nrpetersen]

If your aircraft has an "N" number - it has to have an ELT.

[martymayes]

I take it some of this stuff is opp. Meaning I have no electric system so I do not need an ELT correct.

An electrical system is irrelevant to ELT. You have a single seat aircraft so an ELT is not required.



I ask this question because today I am located at a field with an RC club. This RC club has had this field to themselfs for many many years. Now I have come on the seen and the old timers do not like it.

By the converstation they had with me yesterday I believe a ramp check is in my future. They really do not like me.

I seriously doubt it but it's nice to dream.

[rwanttaja]

If your aircraft has an "N" number - it has to have an ELT.

As Marty posted: No. There are exceptions; I fly one of them.

(though the original builder installed an ELT, and I haven't been inclined to remove it.)

Ron Wanttaja

[Frank Giger]

...and I'm building one!

Hint: the FAA is only concerned with finding a potential passenger should a plane wreck. ;)

[Bill Greenwood]

As for ELT, if you have the old style, 121.5 one, I think you can keep it, unless the plane is sold, am I correct?

And I thought all planes needed an ELT except trainers flown within 50 miles of base?By the way, if you have the old style ELT and it works and the battery is current, I would certainly keep it. While I don't think satelites monitor 121.5 anymore, some search and rescue type planes may still be able to pick this up if you are overdue and they are looking for you. Many people downgrade ELTs and if you are flying in Florida or similar they may not be vital, but I know of many incidents in the west or mountainous areas where they saved people or their absence resulted in losses that might have been avoided.

PLEASE, if you are flying in remote areas make sure to file a flight plan. It is one of the few services that you get free from the govt., and worth its weight in gold if you go down enroute. It could also be an informal one made with a friend or FBO rather than an FAA one, as long as someone knows your schedule and where to send searchers if you are overdue.

As for the vor check which I think is every 30 days to be current, but only required if flying IFR?

[martymayes]

I would not show them anything they didn't ask for. The more you show them, the more they will dig.

The FAA is well aware of every airman certificate and authorization I hold.

[FlyingRon]

The basic's they can ask for: AROW but can include more

The inspector is authorized to inspect:
√° The operating handbook.

None exists nor is required for my aircraft.


√° The weight and balance information.

I have an equipment list with empty weight and the limitations from the original manufacturer as well as the change in envelope from a couple of STC's that involve flight manual supplements to the nonexistant flight manual, but there is no specific weight and balance paperwork NOR WILL YOU FIND ANY REGULATION THAT STRICTLY REQUIRES W&B PAPERWORK other than those that are included within the prescribed required operating manual or other paperworl. ARROW was always a DUMBASS acronym. THere never was a "W" item nor is there now a second "R".



√° Aeronautical charts (for currency).

What charts?

[NXK]

Good info but there's no such thing as a "bi-annual".


1600vw,

I can't address "private airstrips" but if your just a basic Private Pilot, SEL, Fixed Gear and Prop you probably won't get a ramp check for a long time. I've been flying for over 20 years and have had only one at my local municipal airport. The FAA "inspector" was really coming out to see the FBO/Airport Mgr, who hand all kinds of certificates. He owned 2 Skyhawks, a Stearman, T-6, and a Piper Apache which he used to charter for several local businesses. He had all the pilot credentials through ATP along with the A&P certificate and Inspections stuff. I just happened to have rented one of the Skyhawks that Sunday morning and the FAA inspector was sitting around drinking coffee when I finished my flight and brought the keys into the office. I had my logbook with me, since my medical certificate is kept in a littler plastic baggie stapled to a blank page in my log book. My FAA plastic license is in my wallet, so the guy was happy just paging through my log book checking to see when I was due for my next bi-annual. When he was finished, about 10 minutes, I decided to ask him for his ID and his initial response was to check out the govt. plates on his car. The FBO Mgr, (also my flight instructor) laughed at my request and said he had known this guy for years and he was out on a "boon-doggle" from the Columbus FSDO! Just carry the basics and keep yourself "legal" and like the other postings just answer his questions. This ramp check thing is no big deal!

Joe
:cool:

[JimRice85]

Wasnt there was a second R for the radio station license back when they were required?

[rwanttaja]

As for ELT, if you have the old style, 121.5 one, I think you can keep it, unless the plane is sold, am I correct?
Don't believe so.


And I thought all planes needed an ELT except trainers flown within 50 miles of base?
Actually, the list of exception to 91.207 is pretty long:
(1) No Longer Applicable....
(2) Aircraft while engaged in scheduled flights by scheduled air carriers;
(3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began;
(4) Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing;
(5) New aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to their manufacture, preparation, and delivery;
(6) Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to the aerial application of chemicals and other substances for agricultural purposes;
(7) Aircraft certificated by the Administrator for research and development purposes;
(8) Aircraft while used for showing compliance with regulations, crew training, exhibition, air racing, or market surveys;
(9) Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person; and
(10) An aircraft during any period for which the transmitter has been temporarily removed for inspection, repair, modification, or replacement....

Notice that (7) and (8) cover most of the experimental category OTHER than Amateur-Built.

Ron Wanttaja

[Jim Hann]

Good info but there's no such thing as a "bi-annual".
Biennial, but they don't call it that any more, since some pilots need a flight review annually. 14CFR61.56

Wasnt there was a second R for the radio station license back when they were required?
Yep, and we still need it internationally including Canada and Mexico.

None exists nor is required for my aircraft.

I have an equipment list with empty weight and the limitations from the original manufacturer as well as the change in envelope from a couple of STC's that involve flight manual supplements to the nonexistant flight manual, but there is no specific weight and balance paperwork NOR WILL YOU FIND ANY REGULATION THAT STRICTLY REQUIRES W&B PAPERWORK other than those that are included within the prescribed required operating manual or other paperworl. ARROW was always a DUMBASS acronym. THere never was a "W" item nor is there now a second "R".


What charts?

I consider the W&B data as part of the Ops Lims in my personal airplane, it is a separate page because it has been revised just a few times since the airplane rolled out the factory door in 1957. I was originally taught ARRO for that reason. At work, we are required by the company manual to carry the Weight & Balance to the destination, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm guessing if you don't have what they want they would just pull good ol' 14CFR91.13 out.

[Joe LaMantia]

If my memory serves me, ARROW was Air worthiness certificate, Operators manual, Registration, Radio license, and Weight and balance data sheet. That is what they taught and tested us on for the PPl back 20 years ago. Whatever they are calling a flight check these days, I am still required to get one every other year to remain current and the Ramp checker will make sure you are current.

Joe
:cool:

[WLIU]

Gentlemen and ladies,

Rather than speculate and pass around rumors and old wives tales, I would like to suggest reading the FAA manual on how inspectors are to conduct Part 91 Inspections. The FAA Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS) is online and public. You want to go to FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 6 Surveillance, Section 4 Conduct A Part 91 Ramp Inspection. The text that you will find is exactly how the FAA instructs its staff to conduct themselves, what info they ask for, and how they follow up.

Its all on the internet at .gov.

As an airshow performer, I was "ramp inspected", that is tech inspected, at every show. Part of the routine. If you know the drill it is not a big deal. Knowledge is power....

Enjoy,

Wes
N78PS

[FlyingRon]

Actually, it's always been 24 months on a flight review, though there are alternate means of compliance with 61.56.

The "annual" flight review was a boondoggle to appease the flight instructor lobby when they cried to the FAA over the fact that they were going to lose business to the reduced training requirements of the ever so popular Recreational pilot certificate. However, the FAA kept bumping the effective date forward until they gave up and deleted the provision.

[AmigoOne]

I've had a pilot's license since 1967 and have owned several aircrafts since 1975. Never got a ramp check until 2011 when I got 2 rc four months apart. In both instances the inspectors were courteous and the check was limited to my pilot's credentials

[Jim Hann]

Actually, it's always been 24 months on a flight review, though there are alternate means of compliance with 61.56.

The "annual" flight review was a boondoggle to appease the flight instructor lobby when they cried to the FAA over the fact that they were going to lose business to the reduced training requirements of the ever so popular Recreational pilot certificate. However, the FAA kept bumping the effective date forward until they gave up and deleted the provision.

Ron,
I remember doing a couple as a CFI in the early 90s, Private with less than 400 hours and Rec pilots IIRC. I'd have to go back and look in my records, its been too many years. As far as the Rec Pilot, yeah I think we did one (1).

Jim

[1600vw]

I've had a pilot's license since 1967 and have owned several aircrafts since 1975. Never got a ramp check until 2011 when I got 2 rc four months apart. In both instances the inspectors were courteous and the check was limited to my pilot's credentials

From this post maybe ramp checks are on the rise. If no ramp checks in all these years and then 2 within a couple years. If I was to graph this on a chart I believe you would see a rise in ramp checks.

But this thread is not about a rise in ramp checks but what " ID " does an FAA inspector have to carry on one's person , or does anyone working for the FAA have the right to do a ramp check.

I do agree with everyone, keep your paper work in order. But if I get ramped the person doing the check better have his papers in order also. I want to make sure I know what to ask for. I am not going to make this check easy, I will not interfere but I am not doing this check for just anyone in the FAA. People like to throw their weight around, I just want to keep those types in check.

[Check 6]

1600vw, not everyone working for the FAA may conduct ramp checks. They may be conducted by an Air Safety Inspector (ASI) (operations or maintenance) and there is another speciality and I forget the title, something like air safety assistant. Maybe another member can provide the title.

Their i.d. is FAA form 110A.

I have been flying for more than 45 years and have never been ramp checked. I don't think they are on the rise, especially considering furloughs and very limited overtime.

[martymayes]

But this thread is not about a rise in ramp checks but what " ID " does an FAA inspector have to carry on one's person , or does anyone working for the FAA have the right to do a ramp check.
But if I get ramped the person doing the check better have his papers in order also. I want to make sure I know what to ask for. I am not going to make this check easy, I will not interfere but I am not doing this check for just anyone in the FAA.

Well, the reg says "The Administrator" which is Michael Huerta and I doubt he carries a 110A ID badge. I recommend you not say "no" to him if he wants to see your documents, lol. Otherwise, FAA inspectors (who do have the 110A ID badge) have been delegated the authority to check your stuff, as well as an NTSB representative, which they have their own ID and any Federal, State or local law enforcement. I think all they have to do is show you their shield, lol.

I guess you can take the automaton approach but the only time I have come across an FAA employee who was not much fun was an FAA Special Agent who flashed me his "sheriff's badge" when we met. He turned out to be okay in the end. All the others have been okay to joke around with and many have done some very generous favors for me. I really see no reason to make enemies.


Oh, ref your earlier question about checking at a private airport, the FAA inspector will ask the owner of the property for permission to conduct their duties. They can not come on a private airport without permission because that would be tresspassing. If they are refused entry, they go back and report to their supervisor who determines the appropriate course of action.

[FlyingRon]

Ron,
I remember doing a couple as a CFI in the early 90s, Private with less than 400 hours and Rec pilots IIRC. I'd have to go back and look in my records, its been too many years. As far as the Rec Pilot, yeah I think we did one (1).

Jim

As stated, they ANNUAL requirement for the low time/non-ir pilot effective date kept getting pushed off into the future several times until they finally did away with it. NOBODY EVER was subject to the 12 month requirement.

[martymayes]

As stated, they ANNUAL requirement for the low time/non-ir pilot effective date kept getting pushed off into the future several times until they finally did away with it. NOBODY EVER was subject to the 12 month requirement.

Jim, Ron has it right. Original effective date of annual flight review was Aug 30, 1989, delayed via several amendments. Amt 90-4 put the enactment date at 9-1-91, by the time that date rolled around it was canned. Some of the commerical publications had published the rule as becoming effective on the original or amended dates, so it would not be impossible for someone to pick up a copy of a '90 or '91 FAR/AIM, see that and think it was a valid rule. I'm pretty sure I have an old FAR/AIM book that has 61.56 showing an annual fight review requirement but that is a misprint. The rule was never activated.

[pacerpilot]

[QUOTE=Check 6;29801]1600vw, not everyone working for the FAA may conduct ramp checks. They may be conducted by an Air Safety Inspector (ASI) (operations or maintenance) and there is another speciality and I forget the title, something like air safety assistant. Maybe another member can provide the title.

Their i.d. is FAA form 110A.

This is good info. I got ramp checked about 3 years ago by two "FAA" agents who had ID's but absolutely no knowledge whatsoever. I had just bought a Taylorcraft and rolled it out of the hangar when they drove up. They were dressed oddly (over the top "preppie") and didn't know what a Tcart was. I thought this odd but allowed them to eyeball it. The younger of the two was very distressed that I had to hand prop it claiming that wasn't airworthy. I explained-not completely convincingly I think-that is how it's started. Anyhow, now I know what credentials to ask for the next time.

[Check 6]

You can give the FAA feedback (good or bad) regarding a ramp check HERE (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/stakeholder_feedback/afs/).

8900.1 ramp check guidelines (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=B31EC5608DF9D7798525734F00766 694)

Form 110A and associated badge: http://i41.tinypic.com/2ake74p.gif

[Jim Hann]

Jim, Ron has it right. Original effective date of annual flight review was Aug 30, 1989, delayed via several amendments. Amt 90-4 put the enactment date at 9-1-91, by the time that date rolled around it was canned. Some of the commerical publications had published the rule as becoming effective on the original or amended dates, so it would not be impossible for someone to pick up a copy of a '90 or '91 FAR/AIM, see that and think it was a valid rule. I'm pretty sure I have an old FAR/AIM book that has 61.56 showing an annual fight review requirement but that is a misprint. The rule was never activated.


As stated, they ANNUAL requirement for the low time/non-ir pilot effective date kept getting pushed off into the future several times until they finally did away with it. NOBODY EVER was subject to the 12 month requirement.

Yep, it would have been 1990-91 and that is what happened, we all read up on our regs and never checked with the FAA about it. I received my CFI ratings between April and November of 1989, so it was probably a topic on my FIA ride. The school I landed at didn't have any CFI candidates in that time period either so we were further insulated from talking to Feds. We all had the ASA FAR/AIM books, if they were wrong, we were wrong.

[WLIU]

For what its worth, since you are not obligated, and some think it is not wise, to carry your pilot log books, your currency and BFR status are not required info during a ramp check. You are also not obligated, and again it is not wise, to carry the aircraft logbooks. So that annual status is not a normal topic of the usual ramp check either. As with all government exams, only answer the question asked and no more.

I will observe that most folks do not get into trouble for violating a regulation or law. They get into trouble for pissing off the cop. So read the FSIMs and know the right answers to the quiz and you will do fine.

I wiil also note that not only are private airports off limits without the owner's permission, an FAA inspector can not go into your airplane without permission. If your doors are closed and you are not present, they can only look at the outside. I flew with a pilot who after 30 years of interacting with the FAA as a flight test pilot, chose to go to the men's room or head for the airport cafe whenever an FAA staff member was on the field and he was on his personal flying time. A perfectly OK thing to do. The FAA can only "inspect" pilots and aircraft that are in the act of committing aviation. Sitting in the cafe is not committing aviation...

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Joe LaMantia]

So, The $100 hamburger is a good deal!

Joe
;)

[WLIU]

My flight test friend would tell you that the $100 hamburger can be a GREAT deal.

BUt right now, with the sequester having every FAA employee taking one unpaid day off every pay period, the FSDO's do not have a budget for Aviation Safety Inspectors to be in the field on the weekends. And GA is lower on the priority list than air carriers. So you will only see them M-F 9-5 these days if then. Weekend warriors are unlikely to meet an ASI unless you have been issued out of the ordinary paperwork like me.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[Frank Giger]

However, that is a sweet looking badge.

[Richard Warner]

Another note on required equipment. If the Aircraft Type Certificate Data Sheet/Aircraft Specs., requires an FAA APPROVED FLIGHT MANUAL, this is not necessarily the Pilot or Aircraft Operating Manual that the manufacturer provides. It may or may not be. If it doesn't have "FAA APPROVED" on it and you are required to have one in the aircraft, you may fail your ramp check. Also, I don't beleve you are required to have current aeronautical charts in your aircraft unless you are operating IFR, unless this has been changed very recently. Its not too smart not to have the latest, but I don't think it is required.

[Tanille Elaine DeLair]

I was just ramp checked yesterday. I fly an experimental amphibious seaplane called an Aventura II by Aero Adventure. The FAA asked to see 'the limitations'. I said "Well, I have a POH that was made by the builder." They kept saying no, that to be legal to fly I needed to have the 'Limitations'. I opened up the POH and it did say the word limitations on the title page of the POH. I said, "The acronym is AROW, not ARLOW" and they smiled. After a small conference between the two of them they said that I was all good but that I should look into getting a copy of the limitations and carrying it in the plane in the future. Is this an FAA experimental requirement - or is it a couple of FAA guys that dont get to ramp to many experimental aircraft and not have something to pick on? They were charmingly nice.

[CarlOrton]

Tanielle,

Yes, for an experimental, you are required to carry a doc called Operating Limitations. Phase 1 limitations are used during the flight test period. Phase 2 are used for post flight test activities.

They are generated by the DAR during the airworthiness inspection.

You might contact the original builder to see if they still have them.

You were lucky they didn't come down harder on you.

[martymayes]

The FAA guys are correct. Part of the special airworthiness certificate is a set of operating limitations which must be carried on board the aircraft at all times. Having someone list various limitations in a handbook is all well and good but not a substitute for the FAA issued operating limitations. I would imagine you do indeed have this document.

[WLIU]

The Operating Limitations for an experimental amateur built aircraft are generally just 2 or three typed pages. They tend not to look like much but as noted above they, or a copy, have to be in the aircraft.

If you can not find a copy of your operating limitations locally, then I believe that they are part of the aircraft records at the FAA Aircraft Registry in OKC. For a very nominal fee they will send you a computer CD with their files for your aircraft.

As I noted above you do not have to carry a copy of your operating limitations or Airplane Flight Manual with original signatures on it. In fact, most airplanes that carry ops lims or AFM's do not have originals. So you are free to make a couple of copies and put at least one in a safe place with the rest of the aircraft records.

Best of luck,

Wes

[CarlOrton]

Wes, we all know there's a wide range of opinions within the FAA. Not disputing you, but my DAR said absolutely positive, I had to ensure that I had the original signed papers, not copies. Maybe that was for Phase 1; I don't recall. I also haven't bothered to see if there's any FAR out there that says it one way or the other.

Like you, I'm apprehensive about having the originals there, but am following the instructions from my DAR. This was a DAR representing the Ft Worth FSDO (before they were merged).

[WLIU]

I too used to think that. But one day I was prompted to go looking through the FAR's and FAA docs to find out whether I was required to have an original Airplane Flight Manual in the airplane signed in blue ink. And I went looking, and I looked in FAA Order 8900.1, and I found no such thing. The Part 23 airplanes that I fly have a printed AFM with reproduction signatures. The factory doesn't provide an AFM with original signatures.

I am open to someone digging deeper than I did to find specific guidance, but all of the guidance that I have been able to find says that an AFM, or in the case of an experimental the Operating Limitations, for that individual airplane must be in the airplane. A lawyer will tell you that the language does not say the original must be in the airplane. And since a copy is good enough for Part 23 airplanes, and there is no difference specific guidance for experimentals, what am I missing?

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS that came from the factory with crappy copy AFM

[Mike M]

Carl, you're not the only person told one must have the original ops limits in the aircraft. "What do you need to do if your operating limitations are missing or lost? The operating limitations are a part of the aircraft’s permanent file at Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, so getting a copy is as simple as calling the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch. You can reach them toll-free at 866-762-9434. You’ll need to provide them with the N-number, builder name, and serial number of the aircraft. They’ll be happy to fax you a copy of the operating limitations." http://www.eaa.ca/experimenter/articles/2010-12_darside.asp

when one follows Joe's advice, one is then carrying a copy of the original. to me it makes more sense to keep the original in the aircraft logbook and carry a notarized copy of the original, since my bank provides free notarization services for customers.

your mileage (and the correct answer) may vary.

[1600vw]

Carl, you're not the only person told one must have the original ops limits in the aircraft. "What do you need to do if your operating limitations are missing or lost? The operating limitations are a part of the aircraft’s permanent file at Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, so getting a copy is as simple as calling the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch. You can reach them toll-free at 866-762-9434. You’ll need to provide them with the N-number, builder name, and serial number of the aircraft. They’ll be happy to fax you a copy of the operating limitations." http://www.eaa.ca/experimenter/articles/2010-12_darside.asp

when one follows Joe's advice, one is then carrying a copy of the original. to me it makes more sense to keep the original in the aircraft logbook and carry a notarized copy of the original, since my bank provides free notarization services for customers.

your mileage (and the correct answer) may vary.

:thumbsup:..

[FlyingRon]

Notarizing doesn't make anything official, it just attests for the signature made by the person appearing in front of the notary as being verified.
The requirement is that the limitations be carried. They don't need to be the original or even a photocopy of the original, just that they convey the same text. I.e., you could reformat them and make your own operating manual out of them. I'd keep the original one as signed by the inspector SOMEWHERE for proof if there ever is an issue.

[1600vw]

Notarizing doesn't make anything official, it just attests for the signature made by the person appearing in front of the notary as being verified.
The requirement is that the limitations be carried. They don't need to be the original or even a photocopy of the original, just that they convey the same text. I.e., you could reformat them and make your own operating manual out of them. I'd keep the original one as signed by the inspector SOMEWHERE for proof if there ever is an issue.

Ron by calling that number listed can one get that signed document from the FAA? Lets say someone lost the original from house fire or x-wife, or dog ate it.

Tony

[Dana]

When I bought my plane both the airworthiness certificate and op limitations were missing. The local FSDO issued me a new original airworthiness certificate, and gave me a print copy (from a scan or fax) of the op limitations. If I needed anything more than that copy I presume they would have told me.

Certainly you're required to have the original AC in the aircraft, but I'm very leery of leaving original documents in an open cockpit airplane... souvenir hunters steal the damnedest things sometimes. I know you're supposed to have the original, but I think if you're reasonable with an inspector he should hopefully understand.

[WLIU]

You can call or go online to the FAA Registration Branch and they will send you a computer CD of the records for your aircraft that they have on file. This includes the operating limitations. The docs are in PDF format. You print the operating limitations pages. The signatures in the PDF are good enough. I believe that the FAA now destroys the paper after they scan it in.

Oh, for what its worth, the FSDO data processing system is not connected to the Registration Branch data processing system. So if you go to the FSDO, it turns out that they send the same request that you do to the Registration Branch and get the same computer CD. Every FAA division is an island and a "different" FAA. So if you go to the FSDO, it just drags out the process.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS