EAA Tri Motor Flights - Rip off

[Brian247028]

EAA sent me an e-mail about their Ford Tri Motor flight. $70 a person. I thought cool and sent it to 9 people that I know would have gone. This would have filled the plane. Worse case if people declined we would still have a pretty good size group.

I called EAA to find out how long the flight is. It's 15-20 min! WHAT? They want $140 (wife and I) for 15-20 min flight. No thanks EAA. That price is unrealistic and a complete rip off.

I e-mailed everyone and said forget it.

EAA must be banking on the coolness factor or something. I know there is a plane cost associated with it but raise the price to make it an hour ride. A 15 min ride is you are up, make a circle and land. That doesn't sound exciting to me and not worth $140 out of my pocket book.

For the $140 we will rent a 172 for an hour with a pilot. It's not a tri motor but I'm in the air for an hour.

[Chick]

My wife and I went up a couple of years ago. Our local chapter hosts the Ford every year. It was wonderful! I was in the cockpit and even got a few minutes yoke time. I did a couple turns and some straight and level. It was an amazing experience! Well worth every penny.

[Hal Bryan]

Wow, Brian - obviously we disagree. I'm sorry to hear that you think the price is too high, but you should know that the Tri-motor flights have been so popular that we actually had to make arrangements to add a second airplane, thanks to our friends at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo.

Yes, we're absolutely counting on the "coolness factor" - if people just want a scenic flight, they can find that any place. But a lot of people relish the experience of flying in a restored 80+ year old airplane, and getting a small taste of what that part of our aviation history is all about. For them, an hour in a 172 just isn't the same thing.

[Brian247028]

Wow, Brian - obviously we disagree. I'm sorry to hear that you think the price is too high, but you should know that the Tri-motor flights have been so popular that we actually had to make arrangements to add a second airplane, thanks to our friends at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo.

Yes, we're absolutely counting on the "coolness factor" - if people just want a scenic flight, they can find that any place. But a lot of people relish the experience of flying in a restored 80+ year old airplane, and getting a small taste of what that part of our aviation history is all about. For them, an hour in a 172 just isn't the same thing.

Hal - I will have to save this for the day then when I have a $140 burning a hole in my pocket and have 15 min with nothing to do. I can tell you that won't happen.

My complaint isn't about the cost. It's about the cost vs the time in the air.

I've gone hot air ballooning a few times which isn't cheap. Figure that is $50 every 15 min per person. For the $200 per person I was in the air for about an hour.

If I want a coolness factor and I am paying for it give me more time in the air with it.

[Brian247028]

My wife and I went up a couple of years ago. Our local chapter hosts the Ford every year. It was wonderful! I was in the cockpit and even got a few minutes yoke time. I did a couple turns and some straight and level. It was an amazing experience! Well worth every penny.


There is no doubt that it would be cool but not for the price they want compared to the time in the air. What do they show for an in flight movie? A commerical? ha ha.

[Tom Charpentier]

Just FYI, the fuel burn alone for our larger Ford is 80 GPH. Split 10 ways for a full flight (not always the case) that's about $16 at $6 a gallon (pretty low for 100LL) for a 20 min flight. After the costs of insuring and maintaining an 80 year old airframe (you should see the kind of ingenuity our volunteers put into fabricating and installing parts that haven't been manufactured in half a century), not to mention flying non-revenue at 80 GPH all over the country to our tour stops, there honestly isn't much left over for us.

The cost to run the plane really does scale significantly by time, so for an hour ride you're talking about a price point that would attract far fewer passengers than we get today. Our air tours operation is focused on sharing the experience of flying in these aircraft to as many people as possible and the flight times and prices are carefully considered with that in mind. As Hal said, it's been a successful program so far.

I'm a private pilot with time in a bunch of different airplanes, including 172s. I had the opportunity to ride the Ford over Oshkosh last year and there's truly nothing like it in the world. It's a living time capsule - one of the first airliners ever built - and our two represent about a third of all airframes of the type still flying.

If what you're after is purely flying time I certainly understand, but at least to me to me not all time in the air is equal. The 20 minutes I spent in the Tri Motor were more memorable than most hours I've spent in anything else in GA.

[Tom Charpentier]

Also, you wouldn't want to be in that plane for an hour. It's LOUD and after awhile you're just boring holes in the sky. It's more than "take off, circle, and land," you fly low over the surrounding landscape at about 1000 AGL or lower and get some great photo ops before returning. The 15-20 minute flight is a satisfying experience and I wasn't left wanting afterwards.

[Todd copeland]

Actually, that sounds very reasonable. I think I will look for an opportunity to take advantage of it.
Todd

[RickFE]

I have been hoping for an opportunity to take a ride in the Tri-Motor with my Grandson, who has taken quite the shining to almost all things aviation. I think later when we talk about it, it will be more about the uniqueness of the event than exactly how much time we spent airborne in it. Later in his life I am hoping he will have a unique experience to talk about and recognize the historical significance of the plane itself. Not saying anyone is wrong to question the price, but I think there is more to the event than how much time you spent aloft.

[Kyle Boatright]

It would be a rip-off if they didn't tell you the price or the duration of the flight. But they do, so you get to choose whether the trimotor earns your discretionary income.

If you don't like it, vote with your feet.

But you'll be missing a unique experience that I found well worth the expense.

[malexander]

I've never taken a ride. To me, it was too expensive. But, you'll never hear me complain about it. It sounds so cool just listening to it takeoff and watching it lumber off into the sky. I know there's people in there looking out at the crowd saying "they don't know what they're missing".

[martymayes]

My oldest son took a ride in it when it traveled through MI 2 yrs ago. He liked the whole experience. I don't have much interest in "riding" but given a chance to fly it, I'd be all over it.

[JimRice85]

Having flown, restored and maintained antique airplanes and warbirds, $70 for the Trimotor is a ver reasonable price. It would beat the socks off a 172 flight any day.

My dad owned the Stinson Trimotor N11153 (now owned by Greg Herrick) when I was a kid and I flew in it a great deal. I'd pay $70 for a Ford Trimotor ride.

For comparison, look what a ride in a B-17, B-29 or P-51 will cost you. The Trimotor is far cheaper...and much more rare.

[Jim Hann]

Two rides so far, first solo then with my two older children. I'd do it again in a heartbeat with all five of us. A 172 will never give you the experience the Ford does!

Thanks to all the EAA volunteers that keep the old birds flying!

Jim

[Brian247028]

It sounds pretty cool flight. This can be broken down though to two perspectives. Those that see this as a piece of history and want to pay the dollare to experience it no matter how long the flight is. The second would be those that want to expereince it for the flight, in an older plane but this isn't at the top of their priority list.

I fall into the second. I will probably head up there to see it fly and grab some photos of it. Who knows maybe I will be hooked once I'm there but I still wish the flight was longer or EAA would give you the option for a longer flight.

It would be nice to consider other options. If there are two planes keep one at the 15 min flights and have the other plane do morning flights that are 30 min to an hour. If as stated above is true that this audiance would be smaller then maybe just offer 2-3 longer flights.

I'm sure there is a piece of the market being missed by the high price for short flight method. I can tell you that of those that responded to me about turning this into a family event I have a total of 4 no's. Not at that price for that short of time.

Please also don't get me wrong. I'm glad the volunteers/EAA do this and put this together to keep the plane flying.

[Bill Greenwood]

The last post is a good idea. I would like a little longer flight, say 25-30 min and would be willing to pay a little more for it, but not double.
I'd like to have the flight circle the airport grounds as well as fly over the town.
By the way, make sure you and Your Kids have ear plugs or you may damage your hearing as it is about the noiseiest plane I have ever been in.

We ride on the Tri Motor almost every year, if the line is not too long.
I particularly like that the Tri Motor comes right up to the flight line an Oshkosh like the B-17 used to. I am not likely to go all the way to Appleton to get a ride, and going over to Pioneer to wait on the helicopter rides is less convenient also.

One thing one of the TRI motors needs desperately is a prop balance. When we rode in it last year it shook so badly that it was frightening. I think this was the other one, not EAAs. I tried to tell the pilot about it , but he wasn't interested in hearing anything, said some nonsense like ''all these old planes shake" which is not true. I have flown one at Lakeland, and ridden in perhaps 4 or 5 times and never felt it that bad.
A prop balance is only about $200 and saves wear on the whole plane, all the metal parts as well as the instruments,and it should be done before Airventure.

[FunInAviation]

Been there, flew that. I'd do again and again. Flying in a piece of history is worth paying for. When I take my young son up in the Tri Motor, I'm paying for a wonderful memory for him, not thinking about my billfold.

[Antique Tower]

I'm guessing Brian wasn't around when they were charging $500 for a one-hour flight in the Concorde....

[pittsdriver3]

Most of the bombers are $400-500 for a 20 minute ride. A mustang or P-40 is $700-800 for the same. I spent $1000 an hour to fly a mustang in 1991 and my friend's thought I was nuts. That was the best $3000 I ever spent. If you have a passion for old airplanes and know how much it costs to keep them in the air most of these ride programs are very reasonable. Don

[Brian247028]

I didn't know about this but at least it was for an hour.

[Brian247028]

I have been thinking about this some more. The flight is 15 min long for $70. Lets assume in an hour they get in 3 flights. I mean you do have to land, taxi, let people off, get new people on, taxi, take off. Those 3 flights per seat is $210 an hour that they are bringing in. Change the flight to 30 min. Charge $100 per person. You doubled the flight time for only a $30 increase in ticket price. You make $200 per hour per person. Granted this may be off since you still have to change people, taxi time etc but you get the idea. Keep in mind I'm fine with the $70 price. It's the 15 min that to me is the rip off.

[rwanttaja]

I have been thinking about this some more. The flight is 15 min long for $70. Lets assume in an hour they get in 3 flights. I mean you do have to land, taxi, let people off, get new people on, taxi, take off. Those 3 flights per seat is $210 an hour that they are bringing in. Change the flight to 30 min. Charge $100 per person. You doubled the flight time for only a $30 increase in ticket price. You make $200 per hour per person. Granted this may be off since you still have to change people, taxi time etc but you get the idea. Keep in mind I'm fine with the $70 price. It's the 15 min that to me is the rip off.
You also end up flying 1/3rd as many people. I suspect most folks want *a* ride; making it ~10 minutes longer isn't probably going to make much difference to them. What "extra experience" do they gain, with ten more minutes aloft? At what point does it just turn into sightseeing and a stronger case of Tin Goose Tinnitus at $200/hour?

Ron Wanttaja

[JimRice85]

Collings Foundation charges $425 for ride in bombers. $2200 for half an hour dual in their P-51C. $3200 for a full hour.

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/cf_flightexperiences.htm

[Ozzie]

Amazing! These rare aircraft come to you and you think that it is all to expensive for the amount of time you spend aloft.
What a narrow view. Many countries do not have aircraft like the B52 and the Tri Motor P51 etc available to fly in let alone have rules to allow them to carry passengers. My rides in the B52 and the Tri Motor came with a $3000.00 flag fall.
That's how much it cost me to get there. So work out how much per minute it cost me to do a quick lap around Oshkosh.
For me it was worth every cent. Booo on you. Thanks EAA and all who keep these old birds airworthy.
Ozzie from Downunder.

[JimRice85]

Give some folks $20 and they will complain it should have been $50.

[Flyfalcons]

EAA sent me an e-mail about their Ford Tri Motor flight. $70 a person. I thought cool and sent it to 9 people that I know would have gone. This would have filled the plane. Worse case if people declined we would still have a pretty good size group.

I called EAA to find out how long the flight is. It's 15-20 min! WHAT? They want $140 (wife and I) for 15-20 min flight. No thanks EAA. That price is unrealistic and a complete rip off.

I e-mailed everyone and said forget it.

EAA must be banking on the coolness factor or something. I know there is a plane cost associated with it but raise the price to make it an hour ride. A 15 min ride is you are up, make a circle and land. That doesn't sound exciting to me and not worth $140 out of my pocket book.

For the $140 we will rent a 172 for an hour with a pilot. It's not a tri motor but I'm in the air for an hour.

No offense but it sounds like you have no idea what it costs to operate an antique machine with three radial engines.

[RV8505]

I have been thinking about this some more. The flight is 15 min long for $70. Lets assume in an hour they get in 3 flights. I mean you do have to land, taxi, let people off, get new people on, taxi, take off. Those 3 flights per seat is $210 an hour that they are bringing in. Change the flight to 30 min. Charge $100 per person. You doubled the flight time for only a $30 increase in ticket price. You make $200 per hour per person. Granted this may be off since you still have to change people, taxi time etc but you get the idea. Keep in mind I'm fine with the $70 price. It's the 15 min that to me is the rip off.


That funky math is cool However the flight is 70 for 15 min. It is what it is. If you don't want to pay no one is forcing you to play.

[Rv8tor]

Brian, although you math is correct your assumption is not. You assume everyone would receive a longer ride but the reality is many people would not receive a ride at all. When we hosted the Tri-Motor in Midland, MI it flew hops all day for two days with only short breaks for fuel (pilot and plane). Anyway, I respect your choice. I chose to ride and probably will again.

Pat

[Pearson]

Brian,

Hearing your thoughts on the value of a $70 ride in the EAA's Ford Trimotor reminded me of a conversation I had with a guy about joining my local EAA Chapter. He asked me, "well for that much annual dues, what do you get out of it". I told him he was looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. It wasn't about what I got out of it. It was about what I had the opportunity to put INTO it. He ended up joining and hasn't missed a meeting since. EAA isn't about what you can get out of it. It is about what members can put INTO it. Some of us just go to the meetings, shake hands, smile and participate. Some of us take charge of little projects and do little things here and there. Others just pay $70 for a short ride in a rare antique airplane. No one is better or worse for doing their part for EAA, each in their own way.

I don't do nearly as much for my local chapter as I would like to. I have been unemployed for five years. I couldn't afford a two minute flight in the trimotor if it was ten cents an hour. But I do my part by acting as a recruiter for my local chapter. I also make sure that newcommers are introduced and made to feel welcome when they take the time to show up for their first meeting.

So make your own contribution in your own way. I think you will find that the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it.

FLY SAFE!

[Floatsflyer]

Hey Brian, if you could do this in the Tri Motor, would you spend the 70 bucks??

http://imageevent.com/okbueno/mopic;jsessionid=af55ft0wc3.camel_s?p=22&n=1&m=-1&c=10&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

[Victor Bravo]

Our EAA chapter has hosted the B-17 several times, and we specifically asked for EAA to send the Tri-Motor out here as well. We got a response back that it is too far (West Coast) for the Tri-Motor to go.

I have to disagree with the EAA's decision. If the Tri-Motor is so popular that they added another airplane, then it is also popular enough that they can take advantage of its profitability at stops along the way here and back. There are 40 or 50 places between Oshkosh and Los Angeles where the Tri-Motor shopuld do very well. So it might take a month instead of two weeks, it would be profitable and promote part of EAA's mission.

The Tri-Motor fills a niche for an historic aircraft flight experience that is less than half of a B-17 ride, and represents a different historical era than warbirds do. It costs a lot less to operate than the B-17, and probably requires less ground and air crew.

$70 for a flight in the Tri-Motor is not excessive in my opinion. I agree the flight should be longer than 15 minutes.

To address Mr. Charpentier's post, the non-revenue flying hours for the Tri-Motor could be a lot less than the non-revenue hours for the B-17. There are more profitable venues in between major stops, it can oeprate out of smaller airports, and it will appeal to those thousands and thousands of people who cannot afford a B-17 flight. I think that the old Ford could be more profitable, reach out to more people, and spread EAA's message further.

[pacerpilot]

It costs me $12 just for gas to run my Corvair powered Junior Ace that long. I'd say $70 is very reasonable.

[Buzz]

EAA must be banking on the coolness factor or something. I know there is a plane cost associated with it but raise the price to make it an hour ride. A 15 min ride is you are up, make a circle and land. That doesn't sound exciting to me and not worth $140 out of my pocket book.
I took B-17 price a couple years ago. It thought it was well worth it.

[They also had an option where you could actually bomb something. I thought that would have been nice but it was outside the family budget...]

[somorris]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Brian. I have a C-150 that I can fly whenever I want for however long I want (and have time), but I still paid for a ride in the Tri Motor. I thought it was worth the money. It's not about getting in the air, it's about flying in one of our first airliners. You can go for a lot of airplane rides, but the chance to ride in a classic like the Tri Motor doesn't come along very often.

[Wrongway Feldman]

The only beef I have about the EAA Tri Motor Flights.
The one time I could take the ride was right before the afternoon air show 2:30 PM
I wanted to get up there and take some photos of the AirVenture grounds,
Their normal flight pattern takes you out east over lake Winnebago then south, then back west towards the
AirVenture grounds, Then they go north past AirVenture grounds (time to take some photos) then lineup to land.

The problem is they changed the flight pattern right before for the afternoon air show
and start flying north over Oshkosh then west then south then east back to the north runway.
If I new that they were going to change to a northern flight pattern I would have waited until they resumed the normal east south west north pattern.
L&L = Live and Learn
They could advise you of this prior to sliding the plastic.

[sautewes]

I just read in the latest issue of Sport Aviation about the forum comments concerning flights and their costs on EAA's tri-motor. There were some comments about the $70 per person cost with the suggestion it was a "rip-off".
In the early 30's, my father took my brother and me to the Northeast Philadelphia Airport where we took a ride on a Curtiss Condor piloted by Clarence Chamberlin, the second pilot to fly non-stop to Europe. It was a great experience that I will never forget and I'm now 87 years young. The cost for us to fly with Mr. Chamberlin was $5.00 each. In today's value, that $5.00 is worth over $78.00. "Rip-off"? I think NOT.

[Gil]

I don't look at it as a rip-off at $70 for a short ride. For some folks, it is a memory they want. I flew in the Air Zoo Trimotor some years ago, with two of my friends up front in the cockpit, and that made it kind of special... but the ride itself was pretty vanilla. Take off, make a big rectangle around the city and land. There is nothing magical other than the surroundings and the airplane itself. Glad I did it, don't recall what I paid, but would not go out of my way to do it again and wouldn't recommend it to someone who did not already have the desire to check that box.

[crusty old aviator]

You're looking at this from your perspective, only, Brian. If a lot of people want a ride, how long are they going to wait for that ride, no matter what the cost (time is money)? With 15 minute rides, the wait is tolerable, and $70 for a seat in an aircraft this rare isn't that bad without hearing protection.
If you want to whine about rip-offs related to EAA's Ford Tri-motor, complain about how Paul Poberezny ripped off EAA donors on the purchase of the third tri-motor engine by insisting the restoration project buy his unairworthy engine for over twice the price of what we found a freshly overhauled engine for. Liberals may decry this as Paul abusing his position or at least a conflict of interest, but Rush Limbaugh's ditto-heads would aplaud it as good ol' boy capitalism. Keep your ideological affiliation and opinions to yourself, please, as this is not a political rant, it's just a footnote in EAA's history. Paul was being paid a measly $250K+/year back then and had numerous private expenses to cover, so he needed the cash. Hey, we're all human. We do what life requires of us.

[Flyfalcons]

If you want to whine about rip-offs related to EAA's Ford Tri-motor, complain about how Paul Poberezny ripped off EAA donors on the purchase of the third tri-motor engine by insisting the restoration project buy his unairworthy engine for over twice the price of what we found a freshly overhauled engine for. Liberals may decry this as Paul abusing his position or at least a conflict of interest, but Rush Limbaugh's ditto-heads would aplaud it as good ol' boy capitalism. Keep your ideological affiliation and opinions to yourself, please, as this is not a political rant, it's just a footnote in EAA's history.

Interesting. You give a blatantly political opinion, then ask others to keep their politics to themselves.

[donwmack]

I remember when the Concord used to come to Oshkosh and you could get a flight in it. I thought it was too expensive at the time (not overpriced, I just didn't have the $). Now I will never know the experience.

[Frank Giger]

Seventy bucks for a 15 minute ride?

I've had dates that cost more and got me less.


:P