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AndyNZ
09-02-2011, 05:27 AM
I would be keen to see what everyone is flying these days - what, why and for recreational or competitive flying or both?
Myself and two mates are rebuilding a Pitts S1 from the ground up, lots and lots of work going into this rebuild. Won't post any pics just yet.

I do most of my aerobatic antics in these two machines so I won't lie, would love to see everyone else's ragwing machines in particular. :)
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David J Pilkington
09-02-2011, 08:28 PM
This is what I normally fly these days:
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frank_rv4
09-23-2011, 12:05 PM
I am new at full scale aerobatics - have done tons in RC plane - of course not quite the same experience. After owning a fair number of mundane - certified Non - aerobatic aircrafts - last spring I finally got myself my first RV4. The RV4 is a half decent aerobatic plateform for fun flying and perhaps some competion aerobatics but limited to the sportsman - and or perhaps the intermediate catagory. I did my first aerobatics in a Citabria from a flying school near by - and totally loved it - from that first loop I was hooked! ya hoo. this is what I've always dreamed of. It's funny hearing myself say that - since I've read some similar stories in the Sport aerobatic's mag - from other aerobatic pilots and how they too got their starts. I know I was destined to do this - when riding all the coasters - waiting for that marverlous front seat position - was starting to get boring - and wanting more thrills - and G's. haha So this is my megar start into the sport of aerobatics - hope to try and get to compete with my own plane perhaps here in BC and or Alberta with the IAC chapters - we don't have much going on re: acro around here unfortunatly. I need to do some work to my plane over the winter to install an Ellison Throttle (inverted carb) - I already have the flop tube which dosn't do much good with a down draft carb! As well either a Raven or Christen inverted oil system - I was thinking of the Raven so it can work in conjunction with my exisitng wet sump - and hopefully mange to fit under my cowl as there is not much room there. Without these things my aerobatics is limited to pos. G manuvers only - so I'm currently working on trying to perfect my sportsman class aerobatics and so far I can do most of those - I'm a bit nervous about the humpty bump only becasue if I back off on the stick over the top - it's going to go into the neg's very quickly and my motor starts to spit and sputter etc... well I'm sure we've all been there. Hammerheads also a bit of a challenge to remain positive. I think once i get the Ellison throttle installed and the Raven inverted oil that will make doing most of these aerobatic's farily easy - without the worry of making a mess from the vent line and damage to the motor and or - stalling the engine!

Here's a photo of My RV4. Currently configured with a simple - 0320 lycoming E2D - with 150HP - and a sensich all metal prop. climbs at 2000feet per min - at 110MPH. 1800 at 120MPH. cruises at 170 - 180MPH. 2350 - 2500RPM. 8gal per hour fuel burn. 975lb Empty wieght. My daughter's Fav. Show is seasame Street so I decided that a giant ELMO would make an excellent Co - pilot. haha Dosn't say much - and is very light! keeps me in the aerobatic Catagory. haha under 1375lb gross.

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flyhound
09-25-2011, 07:30 AM
You're a lucky man to have access to these 2 great birds. Too bad you aren't closer to Virginia, USA - I'd be bugging you for a partnership in one of them!

Stinson Pilot
10-10-2011, 10:20 PM
1979 Steen Skybolt

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AndyNZ
10-11-2011, 02:59 AM
There are just so many impressive machines out there. :)

frank_rv4
10-12-2011, 11:35 AM
I have been reading this book that my old friend dropped on me - at our local flying club - at first I thought it would be out of date etc... and totally boring - wow was I wrong. As this book could and likely is still hailed as the bible of modern day aerobatics - although it was written back in 1975 by a Neil Williams. The title is simply Aerobatics. I will say that he's one excellent resource - and I have learned lots by reading his book - I have also tried some of the techiques he talks about to improve our aerobatic figures - and the success rate of our aerobatics. It's worked out very well for the most part - biggest difference was most of the plane's he's flown back in the day - the stampe - and the Zlin - etc... are european aircraft and the prop's spin the other way - there fore - when he say's you need a bit of XX rudder to compesate for P factor etc... and you go and try that out with our planes - you will learn quickly that's not right! haha - Tried that in a hammerhead and wow ended up on my back - falling out of the sky! wow did something wrong there. I figured out what it was - too. Corrected my mistake and the procedure worked just as he said it would now my hammerhead's are 100% positive G - no more falling out of the sky - nicely controlled - stall turn's as he calls them. Great book - anyone doing aerobatics should read it. Lot's of great tips - if you are a weekend ACRO - enthusist and or heavlily into competition aerobatics. Just thought I would share this with my aerobaticlly inclined friends.

AndyNZ
10-13-2011, 03:05 AM
Couldn't agree more. It was the first book I ever bought on aerobatics, and definately the best. As you said, the fact that Neil spent most of his time flying less powerful aircraft like the Stampe, Jungmeister and Zlin 526, means most of us can relate to his techniques.
I also still enjoy referring to Duane Cole's books 'Conquest of Lines and Symmetry' and 'Roll Around a Point'.

frank_rv4
10-14-2011, 10:00 AM
I will jot that one down as well - something I've wanted to do - or more like destined to do all my life - but now finally having the resources to be able to do - no doubt many can also relate to that situation! I'm in a great flying club - however just as Neil aludes to in his book - people look at you very strange - you do what?? are you crazy? haha Now going out and doing some loops and rolls and spins - etc... cuban 8's - etc.. are part of my normal daily fun fly without which I would feel that it was like a drive in the car to walmart and back. I'm still at the beginning stages looking at some of the amazing pilots out there doing some much much more advanced stuff thinking perhaps some day - maybe - I have the interest and the stomach for it for sure - but I will need a better plane and more training of course. I think I will go to one of those cozy spots in the states where you can do some serious aerobatics with an instructor - and enjoy the amazing - warm weather etc... arizona or florida has to get some one on one training in a pitts or a extra. Soon I will have more time to dedicate to my new found hobby and love - when I can finally retire from government - and do much more flying and aerobatics. Thanks for your tips. appreciated. Frank.

frank_rv4
10-14-2011, 10:34 AM
Here's a link to my first published aerobatic video. Remember I'm learning so I'm not a hot dog - etc... flying 10feet off the ground and I'm trying to do the aerobatics well so that some day I can compete in competitions with the IAC. I have already found many restrictions to what I can do with this plane due to a number of factors - no inverted oil system - I have a flop tube with is great but without a pressure carb or EFI etc... inverted fuel system - it does not work well in any Neg. G. so I've had to train myself to be very careful to remain positive - particularily hard are hammerheads - or stall turns - as it's very easy to kick late and end up falling back - ie) ending up in neg. g - and stalling the motor. happend only once to me and I will say hurdling toward the ground silently wtihout having the motor running is a tad freaky - of course as most say it will - it started up on it's own pretty quickly - but still - do you want to depend on that? NOPE not me. Landing in a farmers field with an rV4 would be a really bad day I think. So I'm playing it on the cautious side - although I've had people see me do this stuff and say - wow that's some extreme aerobatics. I explain to them this is basic stuff! still fun - don't get me wrong - but you got to start somewhere. so this is my first video - the camera is a fairly cheap - little video camera - so the quality although it's supposed to be HD - is not too great - works OK though - this time I've got it faced back so you can see the tail of the aircraft - I may mount another one facing out towards the wing for my next video.

Here's the link to my video on youtube - for anyone who is interested.
http://youtu.be/4JyDmV7og-M

I would like to be flying a Laser or something like that maybe a design one or similar - capable of decent intermdiate - perhaps advanced aerobatics in the next few years.

isis67
11-08-2011, 12:43 PM
838 I fly a 7KCAB Citabria out of McMinnville Oregon & have just started acro training!

frank_rv4
11-09-2011, 10:56 AM
That's the type of aircraft I did my first loops and rolls in too - lots of fun. What I learned from taking the lessons is the proper way to do the aerobatic procedures and truly understand what the aircraft is doing. I am flying an RV4 now - and it's a bit more fun then the Citabria - more capable - quicker rolls - tighter loops etc... but it's all good - now that I can do more with my new plane I want more still! I would like to compete at the sportsman level then get some different type of aircraft so I can do more advanced aerobatics - perhaps a laser - or design one or similar type - something that can do unlimited aerobatics or at least advanced aerobatics. The school where I took my aerobatics recently closed down and I've lost touch with my aerobatic's instructor unfortunatly - as well - to boot I'm I think the only one in a large flying club who's into aerobatics at all. 130 members - most fly cessna's etc... and are not at all interested in acro. No other clubs near by either - best one I know of is in Alberta - which is quite a way's from here - 2 hours flight but over HUGE mountains - not one range but multiple ranges. Not the easiest to get to from where I live in BC. Although I do wish I had gone to the Rocky mountain house contest last fall. Best of luck with your lessons. I wish my RV 4 had the rudder authority that the citabria has. Great for hammerheads etc... snap rolls too. and spins.

fliinverted
11-12-2011, 09:37 AM
Christen Eagle II in Saint Louis MO. This has been a wonderful airplane and I would recommend one to anyone. Fast, comfortable, and much more capable than I currently am so it keeps me learning constantly.
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frank_rv4
11-15-2011, 11:15 AM
What can I say - but I'm jealous! totally beautiful AC - you have there. A fellow came through with a black Christan Eagle II at our home airport this summer - it also was an amazing looking plane - I was astonished when he told me he did'nt do aerobatics. I'm having fun with my RV4 but pretty much at the limits as to what it's capable of - since I don't have inverted fuel system other than a flop tube and also no inverted oil - yet anyways. I can install an elison carb and either a christan or raven inverted oil system which would allow me to do more figures and more inverted stuff - which would be nice still however I feel I could do more with a plane such as yours. Here unfortunatly we have winter. haha snow sometimes - so an all metal plane does much better and when hangers are 100G and up - it's pretty expensive to own one. I am lucky to have a paved spot - steps from the club house so I'm not complaining. Maybe I'll take one of those aerobatic courses in the US where they have Eagles and or Pitt's etc... seems that there are lots of those places. Safe flying!

Piloto
11-15-2011, 09:26 PM
Pitts S2A. Third owner. Previous two good acquaintances, mature, never abused the airplane. Have owned it for three years, and, having gotten over the incredible initial intimidation, I still fly it with full attention at all times, as well as with a conservative approach to altitudes and manouvers. I enjoy competing at the sportsman level, and look forward to the intermediate.
I have flown many aircraft, to include a five-year stint in DC-3's as a freight dog, Lockheed 12, Cubs, Barons, Cessna 180, floats, and everything in between. I can categorically say that Mr Curtis Pitt's creation is one of the most fascinating, challenging, fun, and addictive aircraft one could ever master. No doubt that quality aerobatic instruction is a must, as well as a pretty good checkout on landings, but the Pitts is a whole other aviation dimension and chapter. Anyone interested in what it can do would do well to add the Pitts experience to his or her logbook.
This iconic aircraft not only elevates the pilot to an enviable status among his peers; it is an irrestistible magnet that will get conversations flowing even from the most aloof bystanders.
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isis67
11-16-2011, 12:45 AM
I'm somewhat frustrated at the lack of aerobatic instruction in my locale and have taken to my own research online and starting up with my primary CFI. He's awesome, one of those XX,XXX hours pilots, Quiet Birdmen, flown everything. But admits he's not an aerobatics instructor. I think for the Primary maneuvers, we can figure things out in the 7KCAB but I'm wondering if others are somewhat "self taught"?? And there must be some kind of basic book out there, any suggestions for a Citabria? Couldn't find anything specific on Amazon or Ebay... How did you all learn??? (thanks)

isis67
11-16-2011, 12:48 AM
1002 Your Pitts is wearing Decathalon paint!! Wonderful, never seen a Pitts with this scheme (this is my Citabria paint as well, funny, we should fly together!)

isis67
11-16-2011, 12:57 AM
oh, thank you frank. i will try to find this book!

Piloto
11-16-2011, 06:41 AM
The books Fly for fun, by Bill Thomas, and Better Aerobatics, by Alan Cassidy have been great. Nonetheless, the benefits of a good number of sessions with a recognized school are something all aerobatic pilots should seek.
Your Citabria is beautiful.
TN

RetroAcro
11-16-2011, 08:52 AM
I'm somewhat frustrated at the lack of aerobatic instruction in my locale and have taken to my own research online and starting up with my primary CFI. He's awesome, one of those XX,XXX hours pilots, Quiet Birdmen, flown everything. But admits he's not an aerobatics instructor. I think for the Primary maneuvers, we can figure things out in the 7KCAB but I'm wondering if others are somewhat "self taught"?? And there must be some kind of basic book out there, any suggestions for a Citabria? Couldn't find anything specific on Amazon or Ebay... How did you all learn??? (thanks)

How much do you spend on your airplane each year, all things considered? The cost to make a little over 1 hour x-country flight and get some real aerobatic instruction in a similar aircraft seems pretty insignificant.

www.flipsideaerobatics.com/ (http://www.flipsideaerobatics.com/)

Does your CFI have significant aerobatic experience at all? If not, forget it. Tens of thousands of straight-and-level hours sitting in a cockpit are completely irrelevant when it comes to doing acro. You mention you both attempting to "figure things out". Not saying you're necessarily going to get yourself killed, but there's no reason to do this, and is just not advisable. If you're worried about cost, realize that you can very quickly get to the point of doing the basic maneuvers safely. It's kinda like simply getting a plane up and down without killing yourself on your very first solo...just getting through the maneuvers safely takes minimal training and is not hard to do - but the real work comes in gaining knowledge, developing your skills, and flying with precision.

frank_rv4
11-16-2011, 11:38 AM
I also agree with the last thread - you have to find a good instructor - I also first learned in the Citabtria - and I did 5 hours or so of instruction before I sold my old non aerobatic certified plane and bought the RV4 I have now. I can do all the same aerobatic's with the RV4 I did in the citrabtria and I find it's faster and more fun - I have added new aerobatic manuvers - that my plane and I are capable of - by doing research - reading etc... the book I have read - so far is called "aerobatics" it's from this guy named - Neil williams - and apparently this book was at one time hailed as a bible for aerobatically inclined folks such as us. Although it was written in the 70's - many of the chapters are easily transfered to what we are still doing today - - only the plane's have changed . Of course at the higher level's such as the un limited or advanced class - things have changed but he still goes into some of that stuff. Understanding Aresti - being able to put together your own sequences etc.. it's all good. I have been able to put together 15 or so manuver's into a sequence that lasts about 5 min or so - lots of fun and you get good by practice and by making mistakes and figuring out what you did wrong. My plane dosn't have inverted fuel except for a flop tube or inverted oil system so I have to work within those constraints - I plan to change that soon! I would love to add more figures and more inverted figures to my porfolio of sequences I can do. There is also a good segment on G's and what that does to you - one warning I've heard time and time again - and I'll tell you about this in case you end up in this senario - never - go - negative - even for a bit - then positive imediatly afterwards - what he's referring to - is - say - 1.5G neg for 2 - 3 sec's or less even - then doing say a loop or other positive manuver that would say produce 3 - 4G's- - normally you would be fine usually I have not problems with even higher then 4 - but if you do the neg's first then imediatly go into the positive G manuver - you will likely black out! I have experienced the tunnel vision thing that happens with extended positive G - say a tight Min radius turn- holding 3.5 - 4G for an extended period and a few times in Spilt S's - since they seem to pull a bit more G then my usual loops do. Just a warning I've heard about. Also practice your aerobatics at a safe altitude - say 4000feet or so - well depends on the ground elevation of course but here it's about 1000 feet our airport - we have a couple of known practice areas I usually call out that I will be in one of those areas for 15 - 20 min - at 3000 - 5000 feet sort of deal.

I hope that you can find a decent instructor in your area - even if you have to fly a away's a way - I did that I had to fly down to get lessons - in a city about 100miles to the south. It was well worth it as there are no aerobtic instructors near here. Get invovled with the IAC - chapter in your area as well if you want to learn more about aerobatics and contests etc... I hope to compete next summer in sportsman in my RV4 - which is about as high a catagory I can hope to do with this plane. Some day I hope to have a better aerobatic machine. BEST of LUCK! keep safe.

NZSlackie
11-16-2011, 01:42 PM
Hey Andy... good to see KHM resurrected... is it based in Wanaka now?

isis67
11-16-2011, 01:56 PM
thanks, RetroAcro, i know Will Allen and his Washington partner, Rochelle...they share in a Super D & my original plan was to take a little vaca to Tucson this February or so and train with Will...BUT he is selling the D for a Pitts. i'm not ready for a Pitts yet....:eek:
i could go down to Santa Paula and train in their Citabria or Super D also and i likely will follow up on one of these options. i just wanted a little time under my belt first, some basics.
We have a ton of talent in our local IAC chapter but everyone is hesitant to "teach" a new acro student and i guess i understand.
this morning i was warned away from practicing barrel rolls, as with a loop or hammerhead, i could "get into trouble" (i assume an inverted flat spin)...
so i'll stick to up and down lines on the 45, competition turns, standard entry spins, um....aileron rolls.

and landings, seems no matter how many i do, i need to improve!

(buying the Alan Cassidy book & there is one from Goulian recommended, as well, Citabria has one on aerobatics).

Cheers!

Jim Ward
11-18-2011, 12:04 AM
I'm somewhat frustrated at the lack of aerobatic instruction in my locale and have taken to my own research online and starting up with my primary CFI. He's awesome, one of those XX,XXX hours pilots, Quiet Birdmen, flown everything. But admits he's not an aerobatics instructor. I think for the Primary maneuvers, we can figure things out in the 7KCAB but I'm wondering if others are somewhat "self taught"?? And there must be some kind of basic book out there, any suggestions for a Citabria? Couldn't find anything specific on Amazon or Ebay... How did you all learn??? (thanks) There are so many perils with teaching yourself acro; one is, the "instructor" has no experience getting you out of a jam. Sooner or later, you'll be looking at the airspeed or tach needle dashing toward red-line and think, "golly, this can't be good!" Only in different words. I wonder if you've consulted IAC's online list of aerobatic flight schools. It's at http://www.iacusn.org/schools . And if it's a trip to Tucson you want, right, Will has his eyes set on an S-2, but there is another instructor at Marana teaching in a Decathlon. I don't know him or his aircraft and so can't offer a recommendation, but I think he has a presence online. Fwiw, there's also an IACer on the field teaching in his Extra 300L. Good luck! Jim

QuietLooper
11-20-2011, 07:03 PM
I do my aerobatics in a Pilatus (Glider, not turbine engine...) Also on an L-23 Super Blanik (another glider) I don't own anything powered. As soon as the FAA accepts the EAA/AOPA proposal for Drivers License Medical I will probably pursue something with a few pistons attached to it. The aerobatics are solely for my own pleasure and the pleasure of those I give rides to.

Rick

jb92563
11-21-2011, 02:54 PM
The Fournier RF4D is a motor glider with a 40 HP VW 1400cc.
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-04_fournier.asp
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-05_fournier.asp

It certainly is economical at 3.1 gal/hr at full throttle.

Its all wood construction with a very beefy spar that has be tested to 13G without failure.

We have a good self support group at the Fournier Forum. http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl

I am new to Aerobatics and in fact still need to take some lessons on the primary manuevers.

Here is a sample of an RF4D doing its thing with Bob Grimstead at the helm:

http://youtu.be/BnTPTKgipxI

I had once thought I might get a power license but at this point it seems moot.

Ever since my initial Glider pilot training in Ontario, Canada where Spin training is mandatory, I was immediately hooked on the unusual attitudes
and aerobatic.

Ray

fliinverted
11-22-2011, 08:45 AM
Now that is cool!

Dan

frank_rv4
11-23-2011, 10:52 AM
Great video thanks for sharing - it reminded me of another glider pilot I watched at an airshow many moon's ago - this was a non - motorized high performance glider and he did a similar type of aerobatic show. What's amazing about it - is the grace and beauty - this is the eccessnece I think of display flying and aerobatic's. For some it's pulling the G's - and doing crazy stuff normal plane's just don't and or can't do - for other's it's more about the grace and beauty and art of aerobatics. I think for me I am in the middle - I like yanking G's and learning new figures - although currently I'm fairly limited in my AC - but also I'm learning to put together a program like the sportsman - in hopes maybe next summer I may compete at one of the IAC contests nearby. We have a fairly active Glider club here in vernon CYVK - it's mostly associated with the Air Cadet's I believe. Personally I will have to say I have a ton of respect for those willing to go up in glider's not sure if I would do so well without a motor!

WTTN 16
12-01-2011, 02:53 PM
Sweet planes!

Hiperbiper
12-05-2011, 11:28 PM
This is my Baby.
Pretty much self taught. I was shown upright and inverted spins and read Duane Cole's books. Also conversed with his brother Marion (as well as other local acro pilots) in hanger flying bull sessions. Unbelieveably informative!
It doesn't take 10 hours of professional acro training to become a good acro pilot. It danm sure doesn't hurt, but it ain't mandatory! IMPO!

WLIU
12-06-2011, 06:59 AM
Nice Hiperbipe. Did you build it?

I would offer you a character building exercise. There are lots of "good" aerobatic pilots out there. "Good" is a very fuzzy adjective. The Hyperbipe is a very capable IAC Sportsman level aircraft. I invite you to participate in an IAC Aerobatic Contest and see how "Good" measures up against your fellow pilots. We all go through the process of posting our first score and finding out that our first try at "Good" is a lot sloppier than that of our peers. Anyone can make the airplane swap ends and call it a loop. But to get a really good score you have to fly a wind corrected vertical circle, without veriations in roundness or wandering off heading.

At the end of each of our first contest, each of us gets to decide whether we really want to fly precise "Good" aerobatics, or whether flopping around is good enough.

I encourage you and everyone reading this post to move beyond mere "Good".

My personal favorite aerobatic figure is a rolling circle. Four coordinated and continuous rolls inside while changing heading 360 degrees, while holding altitude and trying to arrive back on the original heading at the exact moment that the fourth roll reaches wings level (Thanks Leo!). How about you?

See you at the box.

Wes
N89PS

RetroAcro
12-06-2011, 09:13 AM
Nice Hiperbipe. Did you build it?

I would offer you a character building exercise. There are lots of "good" aerobatic pilots out there. "Good" is a very fuzzy adjective. The Hyperbipe is a very capable IAC Sportsman level aircraft. I invite you to participate in an IAC Aerobatic Contest and see how "Good" measures up against your fellow pilots. We all go through the process of posting our first score and finding out that our first try at "Good" is a lot sloppier than that of our peers. Anyone can make the airplane swap ends and call it a loop. But to get a really good score you have to fly a wind corrected vertical circle, without veriations in roundness or wandering off heading.

At the end of each of our first contest, each of us gets to decide whether we really want to fly precise "Good" aerobatics, or whether flopping around is good enough.

I encourage you and everyone reading this post to move beyond mere "Good".

My personal favorite aerobatic figure is a rolling circle. Four coordinated and continuous rolls inside while changing heading 360 degrees, while holding altitude and trying to arrive back on the original heading at the exact moment that the fourth roll reaches wings level (Thanks Leo!). How about you?

See you at the box.

Wes
N89PS

+1, very well said. Wes is subtly challenging you to increase your skills - it's not necessarily a question of ability. Two different things. I've known a number of "good" pilots who have gotten into competition acro after doing largely self-taught acro on their own for years. Those first ground critiquing sessions can be very humbling. As Wes mentioned, even the first contest experience after quite a bit of time preparing and practicing can also be. For those who are not quickly turned off by the initial ego deflation quickly take their skills to new levels. It's all in the interest of the challenge and satisfaction associated with improving and learning to fly with more precision. But you have to be the type of pilot who DOES care about this, otherwise it's probably not for you. Not making any judgments, but some just like flopping around, "hotdogging", or just lazy fun flying, which is fine. Aerobatics is very easy to do. Doing them with a high level of precision is not. I think ego may prevent some folks (who may have flown recreational aerobatics for years) from getting involved with competition. They may have never had any training beyond the basics, and definitely never had any expert ground critiquing. They might feel they are pretty "hot", but deep down are uncomfortable with having their skills measured in such a public way against pilots they know are already experienced with contest flying.

For those who feel this way, I can only say that the real competition is with yourself, not with other pilots. Many folks who have never flown a contest obsess about how well they will do, how uneasy they are flying in front of judges and all their peers, and how they may not like the "competition" atmosphere. Basically, they take it way too seriously before actually experiencing what contests are really like. You'll get over this after your first flight in the box. What contests are really like is different from what many expect. Everyone is friendly and welcoming and eager to help you. There's practically no competitive juice BETWEEN the pilots. It's just like golf, you're competing against yourself. And what keeps most pilots involved becomes less about the "competition flying", but the friends you make, the camaraderie, and the chance to spend a long weekend hanging out and flying with like-minded folks. It's really a small community. For folks who have serious interest in aerobatics, I've never understood not getting involved, given how few and far between real acro nuts are.

So Hiperbiper, there are two contests near you each year - IAC 24's Sherman, TX contest - about an hour flight for you, and IAC 3's Grenada, MS contest - maybe an hour and a half. Everybody loves seeing unusual types at contests, and yours would be very capable in Sportsman. You might look at the sequence and think nothing of it, but I guarantee you that flying the figures well enough to get good scores, INSIDE the box, and presented well in the box is quite a challenge. I'm sure you have the ability, but nobody has a chance at flying well without experienced help from the ground. I guarantee you there will be many things to tighten up that you did not (and could not) realize from flying on your own. I think a lot of folks get a little bored doing recreational aerobatics on their own, because they've lost the ability to find new things to improve on.

Eric
IAC 19

frank_rv4
12-06-2011, 11:23 AM
I had 4 hours or so - of training in a citabria - we got to doing hammerheads - cuban 8's etc... loops - rolls - spins etc... mostly sportsman catagory stuff. I got my RV4 - about 6 months or so later - had to go back to flying my tommie I had for about 3 years or so until I got the RV4 here. To fly that I went down to Oregon and took 5 hours of dual with a Mike Seager who has about 12000 hours on these Van's aircraft. Since I did'nt have huge amounts of tail time I thought it prudent that I get some dual time with a pro - before hopping into that RV4. That was all I needed - I flew it back in from the US myself - on a import ferry permit from Tran. Canada. Then got a good AME to do my annual - and check it over prior to the Tran. Canada - MDRA - inspection - it's quite the process. Anyone considering brining a plane in from the US - into Canada - think twice. Huge amount of work - and paper work - red tape etc... Took me about 3 months and cost about 10G by the time it was all said and done. Since then I've been up about 40 times or so with my RV4 - that's since August. I do pretty much all that plane can do in it's current config. I now want more power and a fully inverted system - I'm almost half thinking of selling it and or trading it for a pitt's or christan eagle - or other type of full acro machine I love acro that much. RV4 is awesome don't get me wrong but it's designed as a multi functional - sport aircraft - for sport touring - and for light aerbatics. not full out - acro.

What type of AC is that plane featured in the above photo? I have not seen one like it?

Hiperbiper
12-06-2011, 02:52 PM
Wes and Eric,
I have no desire to compete in a contest. I fly to please myself and practice the maneuves I want to fly to the level of precision I wish to achieve!
I've been married for 11 years and don't need anyone else telling me I'm not doing something right...

Thanks for the invite but no thanks...I like my Flip-Flop-Flying.

RetroAcro
12-06-2011, 03:32 PM
Wes and Eric,
I have no desire to compete in a contest. I fly to please myself and practice the maneuves I want to fly to the level of precision I wish to achieve!
I've been married for 11 years and don't need anyone else telling me I'm not doing something right...

Thanks for the invite but no thanks...I like my Flip-Flop-Flying.

That's perfectly fine. There are many who enjoy aerobatics just as you do. We were simply responding to your statement about not needing outside help to become a "good" aerobatic pilot. At the end of the day, you only have to be good enough to avoid killing yourself. Nothing else truly matters if you are enjoying yourself. But "good" is a meaningless adjective without comparison. And BTW, all pilots think they are "good". :-) In reality, half are below average. :-)

Regarding choosing your own level of precision, there are many manuevers that you really won't know how precisely they are actually being flown until you get some good dual or expert help from the ground so that you can learn what certain things actually look like vs. what you think they look like. You might be surprised. This is where expert help can be a great asset. So you might become "good" on your own, but you can sure be a helluva lot better with a little help. Viewing expert help as simply someone telling you you're "not doing something right" is not a great attitude. It's not about that at all. That's exactly the ego hang up that I mentioned in my previous post. I would rather someone tell me what I'm doing wrong so that I can fix it and then know I'm flying well, rather than just go about assuming I'm flying well, when in reality I'm likely not flying as well as I'm hoping or assuming I am.

I'm not flaming you...this really isn't some "who's is bigger" argument, because flying is about satisfaction and personal freedom. Nobody's saying how you approach that end is wrong. We just might disagree a bit about the value of coaching from other experienced and knowledgeable aerobatic pilots. Many of the greats are self-taught...Younkin, Loudenslager, and others. But I guarantee you Leo Loudenslager would have never won a world championship without some external critiquing.

WLIU
12-07-2011, 06:57 AM
frank_rv4 - The RV-4 can fly Primary and Sportsman programs. Aerobatics Canada is smaller than IAC, but they are a great group of folks. I am sure that you will be very welcome at their events. Out east here, I go up to Quebec when they host a contest, and there are some Canadians who are regulars at the US contests. Great people and great pilots.

Every airplane can teach you something and you do not need a high horsepower super ship for your first contest flight. In fact, it is better to start in a lower performance airplane because then you really learn to fly the figures. A pilot with good skills can post a good score for a figure in any equipment. As with any athletic activity, taking short cuts early in your skills development results in great frustration later. Waiting just makes you older.

So since you have such a large investment in your current airplane, I encourage you to come to the dance with the date that you have. Its fun, humbling, and enriching, all at once. And, as a wiser man once said "Adversity introduces you to yourself."

See you at the box.

Wes
N78PS

frank_rv4
12-08-2011, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the input - truly appreciated - I've been in contact so far with the folks up in Rocky Mountain house - which I'll guess is about 1.2 - 1.4hours or so from here by air - but over some nasty mountains - I fly in similar mountains almost every day but I also respect that there are few days when it's actually safe for us in these Light aircrafts to simply breeze across the Rockies - and or the coastal range - if you are headed to Vancouver or the Island. They have a nice contest each year in Rocky mountain house I was invited to go last year but had only got my plane - certified for flight in August - so not quite ready yet for that. Now I am - or near ready - and of course anyone can continue to benift from the exerience of other's - no matter if they are a experienced maybe retired - commercial airline pilot - and or a CFI - etc... I'm aways open to learning . This is a nice stepping stone to bigger and better - acro machines - I'm already beginning to think that rather than pumping more $$ coin into this RV4 - once I get my feet wet in competition etc... I will likely want to sell it and get a pitts and or a laser or something else I can fly safely - but also compete at higher levels and do more challenging figures as well. The RV4 is'nt bad - but it has it' s limitations - it's not just power - it's basic design it for a fun - and relativily easy to fly - sport aircraft - that is inexpensive but for the money is fast and fun. it's all that for sure - going from my tommie to this was a great move for me - I've had cherokee's - cessna's etc... but this by far is the most fun I've had yet flying. I knew that aerobatics would be for me - because my son and I are roller coater "finantics" and have been to many of the "big" one's through the US. flying aerobatics for me is like most people doing normal circuts - it's normal. Not only do I love it - but I'm pretty good at it - becuase it comes natural to me and it's not "scary" - or freaky - although most of the poeple I talk to are pretty freaked out - I try and explain it's like anything else - if you do it correctly it's not more dangerous than normal flying. Yes I can't wait to do more! I was thinking of posting my RV4 - on Barnstormer's not so much for sale but for trade - for someone that has a one seat - aerobatic machine that say wants to up grade to a 2 seat sport aircraft. Yes I can put more power under the bonnet - and add - fuel injection or an ellison carb and inverted oil system etc... costing me maybe 15G or so total to do this - or more. But it's still what it is - it's designed to go 200mph not 140 - 160mph and be fully aerobatic - also it's got a high lift airfoil - good for slow flight and landings - but not great for aerobatics - especially for inverted manuvers. I definetly get lots of attention with this plane here though - as I have the only RED one around these parts.

Happy flying!

RetroAcro
12-08-2011, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the input - truly appreciated - I've been in contact so far with the folks up in Rocky Mountain house - which I'll guess is about 1.2 - 1.4hours or so from here by air - but over some nasty mountains - I fly in similar mountains almost every day but I also respect that there are few days when it's actually safe for us in these Light aircrafts to simply breeze across the Rockies - and or the coastal range - if you are headed to Vancouver or the Island. They have a nice contest each year in Rocky mountain house I was invited to go last year but had only got my plane - certified for flight in August - so not quite ready yet for that. Now I am - or near ready - and of course anyone can continue to benift from the exerience of other's - no matter if they are a experienced maybe retired - commercial airline pilot - and or a CFI - etc... I'm aways open to learning . This is a nice stepping stone to bigger and better - acro machines - I'm already beginning to think that rather than pumping more $$ coin into this RV4 - once I get my feet wet in competition etc... I will likely want to sell it and get a pitts and or a laser or something else I can fly safely - but also compete at higher levels and do more challenging figures as well. The RV4 is'nt bad - but it has it' s limitations - it's not just power - it's basic design it for a fun - and relativily easy to fly - sport aircraft - that is inexpensive but for the money is fast and fun. it's all that for sure - going from my tommie to this was a great move for me - I've had cherokee's - cessna's etc... but this by far is the most fun I've had yet flying. I knew that aerobatics would be for me - because my son and I are roller coater "finantics" and have been to many of the "big" one's through the US. flying aerobatics for me is like most people doing normal circuts - it's normal. Not only do I love it - but I'm pretty good at it - becuase it comes natural to me and it's not "scary" - or freaky - although most of the poeple I talk to are pretty freaked out - I try and explain it's like anything else - if you do it correctly it's not more dangerous than normal flying. Yes I can't wait to do more! I was thinking of posting my RV4 - on Barnstormer's not so much for sale but for trade - for someone that has a one seat - aerobatic machine that say wants to up grade to a 2 seat sport aircraft. Yes I can put more power under the bonnet - and add - fuel injection or an ellison carb and inverted oil system etc... costing me maybe 15G or so total to do this - or more. But it's still what it is - it's designed to go 200mph not 140 - 160mph and be fully aerobatic - also it's got a high lift airfoil - good for slow flight and landings - but not great for aerobatics - especially for inverted manuvers. I definetly get lots of attention with this plane here though - as I have the only RED one around these parts.

Happy flying!

Frank, you can win in Sportsman with your non-inverted system RV-4 as is. But it will take lots of practice and critiquing to get to this level. Even if you bought a Pitts or Laser, it would take the same amount of effort to learn to fly the figures at this level. The Pitts or Laser will simply allow for the potential to move a couple categories higher than Sportsman should you really get hooked. My advice would be to to hold onto the RV for the moment...which is maybe the best all-around flying sport plane period. Work on flying it at a level that would score well in Sportsman (whether you actually want to fly a contest or not). This will give you a great foundation. It sounds like you're getting a little "bored" with RV aerobatics. Competition precision will give you quite a bit to work on until your skills truly outgrow the airplane. The brief negative G exposure during Sportsman maneuvers won't hurt anything. Just be wary of (and monitor) potential oil loss during long practice sessions if you do this.

And it doesn't have to be about competition. I used to fly an RV-3, and got to the point where you are now. I ended up buying a Pitts, not specifically to compete, but partly because I wanted more capability...but mostly because I've wanted a Pitts my whole life. I will admit that in the 5 years I flew aerobatics in the RV, I did not actually get to the point of being "better" than the airplane, even though lots of folks told me I was "good". Looking back, I would not consider my skills that "good" at the time. The thing is, that the better you get, the higher the level you compare yourself to, and you might not ever consider yourself truly "good"...at least I don't. When I win a world title, I might say differently. :-)

If you do "upgrade", to a Pitts or Laser type, I would suggest do so because it's simply what you want, without consideration to possible competition aspirations. Think of competition as possibly something you also "get" to do with your airplane, rather than the sole focus of your aerobatic flying. Not many people (even in the competition community) are that hardcore. Most don't fly more than a couple contests a year. You've gotta enjoy your airplane the other 50 weeks out of the year. :-)

WLIU
12-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Getting back to the original purpose of this thread.

The photo below is me and my Pitts S-2A at the IAC National Championships in September 2008. That year I came home able to claim that I was one of the top 10 Sportsman pilots in the US.

1227

And yes, I fly a Pitts because I can. Thank you Curtis.

Wes
N78PS :)

AndyNZ
12-11-2011, 02:31 AM
1230Gidday Slackie,

It has gone full circle. Re-registered STX, and did pt 135 out of Rangiora for a short time before returning to QN to be operated by the Wakatipu Aeroclub. I have been helping out with ratings/spin training etc. The new eng is going great, but it will need a big birthday sooner or later I think. Fabric getting a bit tired particularly on the top wing..
Hows things up your way?

Some gorgeous aeroplanes folks, don't know where to start!
Have attached a photo of our machine, an S1C with sparcraft wings, taken in the late 1970s. Photos to follow in the months ahead as we get through the re-build. We have owned it 2 years and it hasn't flown since 1992. It will be quite a unique machine once we're finished with it!


cheers,

Andy

RetroAcro
12-12-2011, 08:57 AM
My 1976 factory Pitts S-1S. When I was a kid, I thought this was just the sweetest little airplane ever. Still do.

Eric

1234

frank_rv4
12-12-2011, 11:41 AM
Sweet plane - these are starting to grow on me for sure. The more I get into Acro - the more I'm thinking of getting one. Apparently my AME - (A&P) who did my 100hour maintance has one that is in need of full rebuilding -it's disassembled - would be a fun project. He has an awesome shop to do it in as well - since he builds piper's from scratch. If I only had the time!
My 1976 factory Pitts S-1S. When I was a kid, I thought this was just the sweetest little airplane ever. Still do.

Eric

1234

frank_rv4
12-12-2011, 12:21 PM
That is some excellent advise. I think we all learn something each time we go out - conditions are never exactly the same - etc... I'm having fun with this for sure and it's a great little plane for the money I've spent on it - about 42K all said and done - what it's capable of - you can't beat it. I have a yearning for more - and well that will happen some time. I'm not worried or conserned - about competition - I thought it would be fun to do some - if I can get to one near me - that is - like Rocky mountain house - or here in BC or nearby WA state. Next summer I will try to get to some. Here's a video I did yesterday - I call it dancing in the clouds - I've done it a few times but never with my video camera on - so this time I filmed it - and added some music etc.. clipped it down from 39min to only 5 min - tryed to take out the boring stuff. I don't have a mount to mount the camera - above my head - so off to the side seems to be pretty good - elminates the prop - and not to mention the back of my head! But the view out the front was the best. Hope you like it. It's also a sample of some of the aerobatic's I have been doing and practicing in my RV4. Some may consider - doing this - dangerous - - well some would also think that even doing aerobatics is dangerous - my highest G - this time was 3.7 - so well within the AC limitations - I was flying at about 6500 - 8000feet ASL - the ground below - is at 1000 - 3000feet aprox. So lots of space to play - the clouds are basically - weak - cumulous - development - thin - wispy - and very little turbulance - and small in size - perfecly safe to cut through - in this location and at this ALT. http://youtu.be/KvsIxts3W7I

Hope you like it - I've only flown my RV4 now about 30 hours total time. One problem I have is that I have an outdoor spot - no hanger - I have covers etc... it's paved which is nice but that pretty much restricts me to a all metal type of AC I think - as the pitt's would not like being outdoors - especially in the winter time - snow and ice etc... and cold. I would hate to do that to a beautiful aircraft. I usually only fly mine when it's warmer then 0 C - so just above frezzing as the heater is not great. But one can't complain about the power! makes it feel like it's got 200hp. cool.

Merry xmas to all as well.





Frank, you can win in Sportsman with your non-inverted system RV-4 as is. But it will take lots of practice and critiquing to get to this level. Even if you bought a Pitts or Laser, it would take the same amount of effort to learn to fly the figures at this level. The Pitts or Laser will simply allow for the potential to move a couple categories higher than Sportsman should you really get hooked. My advice would be to to hold onto the RV for the moment...which is maybe the best all-around flying sport plane period. Work on flying it at a level that would score well in Sportsman (whether you actually want to fly a contest or not). This will give you a great foundation. It sounds like you're getting a little "bored" with RV aerobatics. Competition precision will give you quite a bit to work on until your skills truly outgrow the airplane. The brief negative G exposure during Sportsman maneuvers won't hurt anything. Just be wary of (and monitor) potential oil loss during long practice sessions if you do this.

And it doesn't have to be about competition. I used to fly an RV-3, and got to the point where you are now. I ended up buying a Pitts, not specifically to compete, but partly because I wanted more capability...but mostly because I've wanted a Pitts my whole life. I will admit that in the 5 years I flew aerobatics in the RV, I did not actually get to the point of being "better" than the airplane, even though lots of folks told me I was "good". Looking back, I would not consider my skills that "good" at the time. The thing is, that the better you get, the higher the level you compare yourself to, and you might not ever consider yourself truly "good"...at least I don't. When I win a world title, I might say differently. :-)

If you do "upgrade", to a Pitts or Laser type, I would suggest do so because it's simply what you want, without consideration to possible competition aspirations. Think of competition as possibly something you also "get" to do with your airplane, rather than the sole focus of your aerobatic flying. Not many people (even in the competition community) are that hardcore. Most don't fly more than a couple contests a year. You've gotta enjoy your airplane the other 50 weeks out of the year. :-)