See the tower at Oshkosh may be closed???

[Kevin O'Halloran]

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Facilities_Could_Be_Closed.pdf

I'm sure it would be open during airadventure---could make it interesting if you came into Oshkosh early on a IFR flight plan:(
Kevin

[Frank Giger]

I think they threw that in as a spoiler for the fiscal fight.

No way they wouldn't have tower operations during Oshkosh.

[Mike M]

agreed, Frank. does anyone else wonder what the traffic counts are at those facilities? last I heard it took 80k ops annually to qualify for a tower. (remember, a touch&go counts as two ops) do not know what it takes to keep one open. but i suspected there is a reason the count was not on the list.

http://aspm.faa.gov/opsnet/sys/Tower.asp

i live in florida. ECP, GNV, LEE, OCF, PGD, SUA, & TLH have been open all year, all have counts below 80k. yet ECP, GNV, & TLH aren't on the closure list even with with counts as low as 60k. CRG, EVB, FPR, HWO, ISM, OMN, OPF, ORL, SGJ, TIX, & VQQ are all over 100k and are on the closure list. looks political, not safety-related, to this casual observer.

what a surprise.

[gbrasch]

Look at the length of that list, no way.......

[CarlOrton]

Back to the original topic, remember that all of the Pink Shirts (FAA) are VOLUNTEERS the entire week. No pay involved at all. Not a factor....

[Bob Collins]

There's politics and there's good data. yesterday was politics. Notice that LaHood was addressing tower closings but aiming it at airline passengers and talking about giant delays and using words like 'calamity.' Most of the towers being closed have very little to do with airline passengers, nor do many of them have enough IFR activity that it would ripple back in the system. He was asked about why the tower closings would impact airline travelers when the "big" towers aren't going to be closed and he danced a bit. He didn't answer the more pertinent question of controller staffing at centers and sectors. My guess is the immediate impact of the sequester will not be felt on airline passengers; it'll be felt on GA. Flight following? Not a chance. But you can't get the American people all worked up and panicked by talking about flight following, or anything else involving GA. It was political gamesmanship yesterday. Nothing more. It's the way the game is played.

[CarlOrton]

...<snip> ....the more pertinent question of controller staffing at centers and sectors. My guess is the immediate impact of the sequester will not be felt on airline passengers; it'll be felt on GA. <snip>
Centers will be impacted. The result to airline traffic, I dunno. As stated in the media, some operations may operate with increased distances between traffic. Sectors within a center will probably be consolidated, meaning one set of eyeballs potentially watching quite a bit more traffic, hence the increased spacing. Does that mean a total system fiasco? Probably not, just some delays here and there.

Another thing to consider: most center controllers undergo background checks, since they'll potentially be involved in AF1 and troop movements. If a controller is living paycheck to paycheck and takes a 10% hit, that could suddenly impact his/her clearance. "Can't pay the bills" is an invitation to provide some 'splaining to the 3 letter agencies. The question then becomes, does a supervisor knowingly put his/her controllers at risk of losing their clearance, or will there be special dispensation since this will be a nation-wide situation.

Or do we assume that Congress will get it in gear and provide quick resolution? I'm betting on the latter (most likely another extension...).

[FlyingRon]

Oshkosh isn't that busy outside of Airventure. I've been there in March. I could volunteer a few towers to be closed around here. They could start with FDK.

[Mike M]

Back to the original topic, remember that all of the Pink Shirts (FAA) are VOLUNTEERS the entire week. No pay involved at all. Not a factor....

and the rest of the year, atc gets paid at osh. so not a factor for the show, but other times........

[rwanttaja]

Back to the original topic, remember that all of the Pink Shirts (FAA) are VOLUNTEERS the entire week. No pay involved at all. Not a factor....
Yes, but: What will the FAA do to mothball the facility if it's closed? Will they shut down the power to everything but security systems and minimal AC to keep the place dry? Wrap the consoles in plastic to protect them? Remove key equipment for common storage with that of other facilities being closed? If they shut off the power on March 2nd, what's the odds that it'll all power-up normally on July 25th? If it doesn't, will there be technicians/tools/replacement parts available?

[CarlOrton]

Hmmm... good point, Ron. Although, in ignorance I wonder what more would be needed other than a comm setup and of course, a/c, for "the show."

Perhaps there will be some type of maintenance provided, such as keeping systems on or cycling them periodically. I would think (again, ignorantly) that no one really assumes this will go on very long.

[rwanttaja]

Hmmm... good point, Ron. Although, in ignorance I wonder what more would be needed other than a comm setup and of course, a/c, for "the show."
Dollars to donuts says the FAA has regular technician checks that are required on all comm equipment in order for it to be used in "Live" ATC. For instance, if a radio hasn't received its frequency stability and transmission power checks in the last 90 days, the FAA operational standards might not allow it to be used.

As you say, though, the FAA may cut back on the operational budget while keeping the maintenance budget intact. That would make sense, in that if the budget problems are suddenly fixed, the equipment is ready to go and they don't need to wait while it all gets calibrated or whatever.

But one does wonder what contingency plans EAA has in mind for Airventure....

There is a lot of political extortion involved, of course...the senators and representatives from Wisconsin will be strongly motivated to ensure Oshkosh tower is operational in July (lotsa bucks poured into the state during Airventure). Similarly, the FAA has proposed to shut down the towers used at all Boeing factory locations in Washington state, PLUS the tower at their remote flight-test base. The tower at the primary flight-test base (Boeing Field) will remain, but the nighttime hours would be eliminated. You can bet the Washington state congresscritters have been reminded what effect this would have on one of the biggest companies in the state. And all the states that rely on airlines to bring in the tourists (hello, Hawaii, Florida, and California) would be harmed, too. It's quite possible some sort of temporary funding will be found "in the interest of aviation safety."


Ron Wanttaja

[1600vw]

Yes, but: What will the FAA do to mothball the facility if it's closed? Will they shut down the power to everything but security systems and minimal AC to keep the place dry? Wrap the consoles in plastic to protect them? Remove key equipment for common storage with that of other facilities being closed? If they shut off the power on March 2nd, what's the odds that it'll all power-up normally on July 25th? If it doesn't, will there be technicians/tools/replacement parts available?

Do you really thing the goverment would close something then shut the power off. They will leave the lights on for "security" reasons. Us tax payers will pay the light bill for a lot of empty buildings. I am sure the goverment has a lot of closed buildings that have power in them today. I could be wrong.

[1600vw]

I think the goverment does need to look at where its wasting money and try to do something about it. Saying that I also believe this is a scare tatic to get the american public talking about how our leaders are doing nothing but taking days off or should I say weeks off when we need them at work.

But some of these towers as we have seen from the posts on other forums really are not needed. I believe this list of towers was already compiled or researched. I bet these towers have been on the "Radar" of closers for a while. I also bet they do not close them all but some are going no matter what.

I could be wrong.

[PaulDow]

... remember that all of the Pink Shirts (FAA) are VOLUNTEERS the entire week. No pay involved at all...Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the volunteering aspect was that they applied to go to the busy Oshkosh area during the Convention. They're still getting paid their salary, and possible overtime, for the hours they work.

[rwanttaja]

Do you really thing the goverment would close something then shut the power off. They will leave the lights on for "security" reasons.
Which is what I said in the post you quoted. "Will they shut down the power to everything but security systems and minimal AC to keep the place dry?"

I am sure the goverment has a lot of closed buildings that have power in them today.

As a taxpayer, I do *not* want them to shut the building down completely. If they do, the interiors will be quickly stripped. Just last week, thieves stole wire that powered runway lights at Sea-Tac airport. Which is a fully-operational, TSA-protected international airport.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mike M]

But one does wonder what contingency plans EAA has in mind for Airventure....

they use temporary towers at other airshows all over the nation.


the FAA has proposed to shut down the towers used at all Boeing factory locations in Washington state, PLUS the tower at their remote flight-test base. The tower at the primary flight-test base (Boeing Field) will remain, but the nighttime hours would be eliminated

i was wrong about pure numbers of ops being the criteria for starting/stopping towers. google FAA-APO-90-7 to find out all about it. and to find out that the administration will be violating CFR 14 section 170.15 if they shut down towers based on numbers, as they proposed. so any shutdown will be "temporary" not permanent - yeah, right.

seriously, there are nine WA airports with below 70k ops a year, such as MWH with 39k, YKM with 37k, and ALW with 25k. TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND OPS A YEAR AND THEY HAVE A TOWER? do those nine REALLY need to be open?


....all the states that rely on airlines to bring in the tourists (hello, Hawaii, Florida, and California) would be harmed, too.

scheduled airlines regularly service American airports without towers, so what's a few more with low volume? big deal.

[rwanttaja]

they use temporary towers at other airshows all over the nation.
I didn't clearly state my rhetorical question. I should have said, "But one does wonder what contingency plans EAA has in mind for Airventure if the FAA refuses to operate a tower."

Will the FAA step up? First, we'd have to assume that the FAA's austerity budget includes moving and supporting a temporary tower. Seems like that portion of the budget would be an early victims of cuts. Second, we'd have to assume that the FAA would be willing to control a show as big as AV from a ground-level facility. That'll really hurt the visibility of the controllers.

Third, we'd have to consider whether, in an austerity environment, the FAA would dare to allocate resources to a privately-operated airshow. This may not go over well to folks outside of Wisconsin.

So...if Wittman Field is turned into an uncontrolled airport, what will the EAA do? I can't see them cancelling the show, but there'd be a huge liability with all those planes coming in.

This sort of issue may rise to a head earlier than one might think: I see that Lakeland airport is also on the block for closing. Sun-N-Fun is less than two months away....

Ron Wanttaja

[CarlOrton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the volunteering aspect was that they applied to go to the busy Oshkosh area during the Convention. They're still getting paid their salary, and possible overtime, for the hours they work.

You are correct, Paul; an esteemed senior member of EAA wrote me to assure me that the controllers are in fact paid during their week at AirVenture.

Sorry, folks, if I flexed fingers before having the correct information.

[JoesPiper]

The tower will be open as per the FAA and Dick Knapinski (EAA Comm. Advisor)