Parking in the North 40

[eaajen]

Hello all,

Many years ago, I used to go to Oshkosh and park in the North 40, around RWY 27. Then we started flying antiques or Contemporary, and we've parked in the S. 40 for many years.

Now, however, I've bought a modern S-LSA, a SportCruiser, in an effort to save money on operating costs, and I'm guessing it will be sent to the N. 40...

PROBLEM IS..........

In the N 40, they T the planes together, mostly, for parking, and my plane is small.

Why does that matter? Because I've had trouble, in the past, finding room to place the tent by the plane. If guy on one side places his tent on his right side, and the other guy places it on his left, then I have no where....... Depending.

I enjoy the experience at Oshkosh, and enjoyed Rod, etc., but I am concerned about cramped conditions in the N. 40.

And my views are not antiquated. I've gone up there to look every year, in my wanderings. I see they're still T-ing there.

(By contrast, the South 40 rarely fills up, never has closed that I know of... It's the North 40 that fills, cramps, and T's.)

Tks

[eaajen]

Oh, and I should say I'm probably more familiar than most with the parking at Osh, as I've helped them park in the South 40 many years in the past. There, they have wide open spaces, and they don't T planes, leaving more room for tents, etc.

I know: they could re-allocate, change the years of manufacturer that determine parking and place more in the S. 40, fewer in the N. 40....And I DON'T MEAN TO TRY TO GET THEM TO CHANGE THAT, but I think I"m just putting this information out there seeing what ideas some of you have per the parking in the N. 40, for my SportCruiser. Me being smaller, means I'll be physically closer to the next planes, less room for tent, more congested, as it were....

I value input from others, and I may get some ideas that are helpful.

Thank you

Jen

[Wilfred]

I agree. I too have been badly cramped as to where I can place my tent....have to have it so close to the wing of the plane so that when it rains (as it often does) the water can drain down on my tent. This is in the home-built parking area, but it causes the same problems as eaajen mentiones.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

there is no rule that states you have to go to the north 40 if you fly a LSA
I know several guys with Bonanzas that go to the south 40 because of the reasons you mentioned
Some park on the flight line and camp near the trees in the vintage area.
Lots of options
The formation groups get packed together like sardines--we have learned to deal with it
Kevin

[John Carrier]

Thank you for your message and I can certainly appreciate your perspective. Understand that aircraft is parked in the order it arrives, placed in a location designated by Flightline Operations (FLO), based on appropriate signage (see the AirVenture NOTAM) and ground/weather conditions at hand.

Yes, it does get tight on the N40. One of the main objectives in the N40 area is to maximize parking space. We do this to give the N40 experience to as many campers/parkers as possible. Garrett Nievin, chairman of the N40 FLO, stated it quite well in a November 2012 Sport Aviation article ("Right This Way"). "If we don't do a good job parking everybody efficiently, if we're sloppy and park planes wobbly and spaced apart, that's going to be a family and another family and another family that have to camp in Fond du Lac, and that's not the experience they want. They came here to camp at Oshkosh." With that said, it was observed that FLO did get a bit overzealous in packing some planes in. I have spoken to Garrett about it and they are reviewing their parking procedures for this year. Their goal in camping is a comfortable space (e.g., 6' or a bit more), between wings; however, parking is a judgmental activity and it's tough to be precise. The tailing will continue in most areas, except where space prohibits safe taxing or areas where larger/heavier aircraft are parked.

[rleffler]

You might try having a sign ready for the person directing you at your parking location that you have a 10'x13' (or whatever your tent dimensions are) large tent that you need room to put up. The person parking you can't read your mind, so a sign is probably the only effective way to communicate to them your needs.

[FlyingRon]

I believe they only T em in in the North 40 when it's particularly soupy and they've lost parts of the camping area and need to pack people in tighter in the remaining space.

LSAs and other aircraft can only park in Vintage (South 40) if they were built in 1970 or earlier. Those Bonanzas have to be old enough. Some LSA's qualify (like the LSA Ercoupes). THings like Sport Cruisers need to go North. Yes we do look up the registration numbers in the FAA/TraponrtCanada databases to verify they're legal.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

I thought the south 40 was the area south of the show plane parking ( some people call it North fond du lac )
Vintage was west of the taxi way in the area south of aero shell square--goes untill you hit the ultra light area???
So your telling me that the south 40 is vintage????
then what is the area beyond the curve south??

[FlyingRon]

Vintage parking is everything from the green Communications building / Red Barn down south with the exception of the ultralight/rotorcraft area over by their runway/barn. It covers both sides of the road all the way town to the south end of the field. There are a couple of VIP rows right up by the judges trailers. We park the planes there, but only after someone else in the EAA approves the credentials. Vintage divides it up into several regions which ends up being fluid from year to year: past grand champions, other select non-camping aircraft, non-camping aircraft, large twins, pre-1945 antiques, certain prearranged type club spaces, the 195's.

A decade ago, it was Vintage parking and Showplane camping (homebuilts camped in there as well) and there was a 'vintage only' section there between the hangar cafe and the theatre-in-the-woods. The homebuilts got their own camping area up north, so it's all vintage now.

[John Carrier]

You might try having a sign ready for the person directing you at your parking location that you have a 10'x13' (or whatever your tent dimensions are) large tent that you need room to put up. The person parking you can't read your mind, so a sign is probably the only effective way to communicate to them your needs.

You can try this, but don't assume it will be honored. FLO priority is safety, efficient traffic flow, and effective parking. Conditions will dictate what can be accommodated and FLO will really only be looking for official (see the AV NOTAM, Preflight Planning section) signage (e.g., GAC, GAP, and FBO). Best follow the rule of thumb - your tent should mainly fit within the span of one of your wings, understanding that there is some tolerance beyond (roughly 1 foot or so).

[John Carrier]

I believe they only T em in in the North 40 when it's particularly soupy and they've lost parts of the camping area and need to pack people in tighter in the remaining space....

Tailing has been common practice since the early 80's simply given demand for real estate. The only time FLO deviates from this is when conditions affect safety of aircraft or people (e.g., wet grounds), the area cannot provide an appropriate taxiway, or the weight, size, or type of aircraft necessitates special handling.

[Cary]

I've camped in the North 40, the South 40 (north Fon du lac), and the far North 40.5 (north side of 27), and I've never felt cramped anywhere, with a 4 person Big Agnes tent with vestibule. I generally place my tent on the left (pilot's) side of the airplane, either forward of the wing or behind the wing, depending on what the nearby tenters have done. It fits either place. Unless you're carrying a portable palace, there's plenty of room, regardless of T-ing.

Cary

[turtle]

Best follow the rule of thumb - your tent should mainly fit within the span of one of your wings, understanding that there is some tolerance beyond (roughly 1 foot or so).
So three people in a Tri-Pacer are expected to use a smaller tent than three people in a 172. Makes perfect sense. :rollseyes: Maybe we should all duct tape air mattresses to the end of our wings as soon as we land so we can be treated equally.

One more reason why AV 2012 was my last.

[fentho]

Why do these seemingly intelligent forums need to degerate into trite snipe comments? You don't like a suggestion? Say so politely and come up with one of your own (or leave the discussion to those of us who enjoy solving issues thru adult discourse!).

[Cary]

Well, let's see. A short wing Piper has a wingspan just over 29', the cabin is about 40" wide, so each wing must be about just under 13' wide. A typical 4 person tent is about 10' long. Where's the problem?

Being able to fly is a blessing. Being able to enjoy the camaraderie of others who enjoy flying is a blessing. Being able to camp with them is a blessing. Life is so short. Why do some folks always find something to complain about?

After last year's mid-week storm, which destroyed a number of tents, I had some tent poles bent, but they were fixable, and my sleeping bag got wet. My "neighbor" to the east had his family's whole camping outfit literally destroyed--not fixable at all. I was commiserating with him at the laundromat as he and his wife were attempting to dry out their belongings. I made some comment that this sure bungled up their vacation, and his comment said it all: "Yeah, but things happen." Then he said that it was time to replace all of their stuff anyway, it was all several years old and getting pretty worn, and maybe we'd see each other next year.

A bit different from Turtle's approach to life, huh?

Cary

[eaajen]

Hi. I've been there in person many times, of course, and I've had bad parking experiences in the N 40, but I also looked at a satellite photo of Google Earth, there, of the N 40.

I'm seeing what I've remembered: Wingtips are perhaps 2 feet from the wing of the adjacent airplane, facing same way, and the T'd airplanes are also spaced maybe 2-3 feet apart, facing the opposite way---meaning that the wings of one airplane facing East (say), are only 2-3 feet from the elevators of planes facing the opposite way, also. (I note some rows with some twins in them are not T'd.)
2811
You can see this, yourself, by using Google Earth.

I see tents in places cramped together, and one tent actually nudged (what I think is) too far out into the taxilane, because it is surrounded by 4 tents near it that are crowding it out. (If I were a parker, there, I'd probably think we'd need to help him move his tent to somewhere not in the taxilane. I see a white one, by a moving twin, a purple one a row to the West behind another moving twin...)

CONCERNS AND NOTE:

NOTE:
I spoke with Rod about this last year at OSH: The problem ISN'T one of trying to fit everyone in. Wrong. The problem is in the year-of-manufacture they've designated can go to the SOUTH 40 to relieve congestion. The South 40 almost never fills, and they don't T because they have lots of room. I have volunteered there for years, in years past, as a biker/parker. If they changed it from 1970-cut-off to a 1980-cut-off, or so, then that would relieve congestion in the N 40. They may still T, but may be able to do so with greater wing-tip spacing---getting more planes in, utilizing space in the S 40.

CONCERNS:
I have parked in the N 40 many times, in past, and walked the area every year I've been there. Conditions are too cramped. A little elbow room is very helpful to a lot of things (from preventing people trying to put their tents in taxilanes all the way up to, and never forgetting, attendee enjoyment, which is why they come and spend their money, right?) I have had a number of concerns about the cramped conditions, and this year, I hope to come, again, thogh this time I'll be in my 2009 SportCruiser, an LSA, which I think needs to park in the N 40. It's a small plane. I've had a problem in years past with my tent leaking during famous OSH rains, and I've been told to get a Cabellas tent, which I now have. It's not huge, but it's larger than will fit if we're packed tightly, or will be actually adjacent to neighbor's or something.

And I'm thinking: Why? So the South 40 guys can keep wide open fields?

I fear the S 40 likes it's space and won't want to give it up, but all the land at OSH should be enjoyed by all the attendees, and I see no reason why an adjiustment can't be made.

That said, I would rather expect an adjustment won't be made, so I'm just hoping someone will say something that will help me figure out a way to have a more enjoyable stay. (I fly in from L.A., a long way, and seeing OSH means a lot to me.)

Having a sign to show them enroute to parking is a good one, though I fear of limited and unreliable use. If cramped, departing VFR and arriving again to take chances at another spot is possibility. I get there usually 2-3 days before show starts, trying to get better parking..., so I could fly out and return. And then, if it's really bad, just leave and try again next year.

And all so So 40 can keep its fields?

Rog Hightower agreed. Hopefully sometime the wheels will turn. :)

Jen

[FlyingRon]

Well that's not quite true. It's been peaking out almost right at capacity the past few years. It just about hits the end of the field when people start leaving further up and we start backfilling. There were a couple of years ago when the show was doing real good that we ended up shuffling people out past the "burn line" south of the end of taxiway P (where the "grass runway" is now). The main show has been encroaching on the South 40 steadily. Last year we got some chalet for a luggage company plopped right down in the middle of the taxiway which meant we had to lose two rows of parking to relocate it.

Note that some of the empty spaces in the south 40 isn't available for parking. The area off the end of the ultralight runway is clear space. There's several rows of ultralight parking and exhibition area that is largely a ghost town since light sport took off. There are several rows of EAA mandated VIP parking not under Vintage's discretion. Most of the area to the west side of the road south of aircraft repair is held open for the pre-show weekend for pre-arranged type club arrivals. This year a large hunk of prime real estate was reserved for the mass cub arrival (which got filled). We also lost 20' feet of each row on the flight line after the dumbass forgot to lock the tail wheel on takeoff in the DC-3 and ended up in the ditch. Thank god we didn't lose more when Jack Roush dropped his jet nearly on top of where I usually stand during airport operations.

The south 40 eligibility is based on year of manufacture under the judging rules for Vintage. It's steadily crept up over the twenty years I've been coming from the end of 1965 to the end of 1970.

[eaajen]

...and the South 40 is still WIDE open compared to the cramped North 40, never really filling, because they don't T there.

Nearly fill in recent years?

The N. 40 fills and shuts down every year, it seems, while the S 40 doesn't T....

I've worked parking planes in S. 40 many years, and whatever is thought of "filling" there is a wide-open walk in the park compared to the N. 40.

[John Carrier]

There is no argument that the N40 parks tighter than the S40. The N40 is intended for general purpose aircraft parking and camping. The S40 has been designated for parking and camping of the showplane categories (e.g., Warbirds, Homebuilt, IAC, Vintage, and Seaplane). Spacing is more generous given the need to view / judge aircraft and a general desire to keep the flighline area less congested for safety reasons. In addition, many of the aircraft in this area are tailwheel types, which require additional clearance and visibility to taxi and park. The further south one goes, the grass surface becomes less refined, which can also be a problem for nosewheel aircraft (e.g., ground clearance of prop, steering ability).

On a positive note, the N40 does enjoy some amenities that those past the end of 36 ("God's country") can only dream off (e.g., shower facilities, food venue, proximity to the grounds, etc.).

[Bill Greenwood]

Sell that Tri Pacer and buy a motorglider to fly to EAA next year. Viola, plenty of wing area to park under.

[eaajen]

However you slice it, the N 40 is cramped, and the S 40 is very open, and I think that calling the Cessnas and Bonanzas that park in the S 40 "showplanes" is semantics, there being no substantive difference between those of the '60s and the '70s, and the planes are largely not treated as showplanes. People just fly in and pitch a tent. 99% of them do not put out a display plaque or sign, don't clean the planes, nothing, for the show. It looks like the N 40, except that it's more wide open.

I'm sure the S 40 likes their elbow room, but I do think that, as the years have marched on, adjustment needs to be made to reallocate parking/camping availability, as newer planes are as valued to the show as older ones, and pay just as much money to be there, camp, etc.

Keeping the flight line more open? Makes no sense per this discussion. There is very little traffic through the South 40. I've witnessed that for 20 years. The area of congestion is Show Center, where there is no airplane camping by anyone. Flight line operations rarely use taxilanes through camping areas--and I say rarely, optimistically. I've never seen air show planes taxying through vintage camping areas, between planes with tents. If it happens, it's rare. Like I say, I've been going for.....since 1989.

Safety? The congestion in the N 40 far surpasses the openness of the S 40, and planes come and go much more frequently up there, because of the congestion--and around more tents and pedestrians, again due to the congestion.

Discussion in favor of keeping things cramped in the N 40, of not adjusting the year to 1980 or something for planes to go to the S 40, of keeping the S 40 open like it is, seems less based on the needs of the show than on

(1) the desire of the S 40 to keep its elbow room, and
(2) inertia, of keeping things as they are, even though years march on with more newer planes needing to find parking.

Jen

[Rick Rademacher]

For many times in the eighty’s, I was happy just to be able to land at Oshkosh. The north 40 was so much better than having to land and camp at Fond du Lac. When EAA changed the years so that my 1959 182 would be guaranteed a space at Oshkosh, I spent a lot of time camping in the south 40. In 2003, my 46 Piper Cub was parked on the runway side of the south 40 taxiway which didn’t allow me to camp under my wings. That was one of the last aircraft saturated years.
So, things have changed in recent years as fewer aircraft fly into Oshkosh and as people have more sophisticated needs and desires. Just don't asked to be parked where the round engines have always been parked if your engine is not round!

[Cary]

Since the only "choices" for camping according to the annual NOTAM are GAC and VAC, I'm curious how anyone can say that those who camp in the South 40 do so because of increased room. My first few visits to OSH, we parked in the North 40, because we put up the GAC sign, and that's where we were directed to go. When we camped in the South 40 the first time, it was because of the preceding week's rains that virtually flooded the North 40, and so having an older airplane meant we could camp at OSH and not elsewhere, so we put up the VAC sign. We taxied where we were told to taxi, and mostly we were thankful that we got to camp on the OSH grounds--there were many that year who had to camp at other airports.

When I camped there the second time, I put up the GAC sign, and I still ended up in the South 40, because that's where I was directed to go. Had I had a choice, I would have preferred the North 40, compared to being in the 3rd from the last row south in the South 40--it was quite a hike just to the bus stop, after they moved the stop farther north after the first big rain of the week, and the shower trailer was a good block away, also.

Last year I again put up the GAC sign, and this time I was directed to the North 40.5, north of 9-27. That was convenient to the BP station to get ice and to Friar Tuck's and the other restaurants close off the grounds, but a long way from the show. But the bus service was good, and I had my bicycle, too, so it wasn't any problem to get around.

And yet, although the amenities were a bit more inconvenient in either the far South 40 or the North 40.5, how could I complain? Or why would I? Regardless of where I was camped, I was at OSH, I had a great week with lots of fun, met a lot of great people, and thoroughly enjoyed myself as always.

So I guess what I'm saying is that except for the GAC vs. VAC choice, there really isn't a whole lot of choice when pilots have to go where they're directed to go by the volunteers. So instead of complaining about this or that, just be glad to be there! None of us knows when our flying days will be curtailed, whether by the government, economics, or our health. Enjoy it while you can!

Cary

[rawheels]

The south 40 eligibility is based on year of manufacture under the judging rules for Vintage. It's steadily crept up over the twenty years I've been coming from the end of 1965 to the end of 1970.

So, in 20 years the date of vintage aircraft has only increased by 5 years? Is that because of the flood of Cessnas that would be in vintage if it had crept up year for year over that time? (Would be aircraft mfr'ed through 1985 now).

[FlyingRon]

It's up to Vintage to decide what membership they want to address. What you have to realize is the stuff in the North 40 is NOT showplanes. Every other camping/parking section represents a distinct membership organization in the EAA: Custom (homebuilts), Warbirds, Ultralights, IAC, Vintage. I suppose if they created a late model spam camp division of the EAA, they could lobby for their own showplane area as well.

[JimRice85]

Why do they change the year at all? 1945 has been the cut off for antiques for decades. My 1946 Swift and J-3 Cub, classics are older now, 65 years, than a 1931 Stinson was when Vintage was started. They haven't changed the criteria, yet, they created contemporary and continue to expand it. Funny, antiques at one time was anything 50 years old or older. Why aren't straight tail and fast back 172s, 108 series Stinsons and Tripacers antiques and allowed to park with the rich big dogs with the Wacos, round engine Stinsons and Staggerwings?

[eaajen]

It's up to Vintage to decide what membership they want to address. What you have to realize is the stuff in the North 40 is NOT showplanes. Every other camping/parking section represents a distinct membership organization in the EAA: Custom (homebuilts), Warbirds, Ultralights, IAC, Vintage. I suppose if they created a late model spam camp division of the EAA, they could lobby for their own showplane area as well.

You know, half the planes who are "vintage" are not "showplanes," either. It's just a decision to allow them to park/camp in the S 40 due to their year. It's arbitrary, semantics.

And the discussion isn't about different membership organizations in the EAA but the space allocated for parking/camping during Airventure.

The N 40 is cramped, T'd parking, as I've shown in a posted overhead photo....while the space in the S 40 is soooo roomy.

It's not about each organization having itself; it's about how much space is allotted for them.

The cramped, crowded conditions in the N 40 could be relieved in a number of ways:


Since the calendar keeps on creeping on, "Vintage" could be moved up from 1970 to 1980. I think the crowd would not know or care that planes up to 1980 got to park south, and crowding in N 40 could be lessened. It would also increase membership in Vintage. (What is "Vintage" has to change, I'd think, as the calendar marches forward.)
Some section of the land in the S-40 could be re-allocated to newer planes, even if the years for Vintage were not adjusted.
There are areas south of show central that are not on the S 40 flight line, either—such as the field S of the field S of Theatre in the Woods, yet also West of Wittman Road, hidden by trees, where tourists rarely even go, that are not affected by any airshow or flightline concerns at all—that could be used for more modern aircraft...
Other ways if willing and creative.


If more comfortably accommodating all EAA members / paid attendees who fly in was a consideration, it could easily be done, and I'm in favor of it.

It's crowded in the N 40. For those who didn't see the overhead photo, here it is.
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Jen

[FlyingRon]

By EAA definition, homebuilts, warbirds, ultralights, rotorcraft, and vintage ARE showplanes regardless of how pretty they are. Your late model spam can is not. I know you don't think it's fair, but that's the way the EAA runs. People don't come to see an 80's era POS Cherokee.

All the parking south of the COM shack/ Vintage Red Barn with the exception of the Ultralight area and three rows next to the Zaugs trailers is Vintage. The area you are talking about (between the Theatre in the woods/Red Barn back to the Hangar Cafe area, is prime Vintage real estate. The first four or five rows of that are reserved for the pre-1945 stuff as well.

Admittedly show plane parking got scrunched when the FAA made us give more clear space to the taxiway after the DC-3 excursion into the ditch. Such is what you have to do if you want an airshow (they weren't even real happy several years ago when the field was soupy and we parked people in the paved ditch). They wanted those planes (no people were present) out of there before the airshows. Vintage got a little space back when they moved the homebuilt camping up further north. Of course, both homebuilts and Vintage are losing space again because the chalets are getting built in what was parking areas for these groups. Vintage also freqently loses rows up near show center when there are special displays. These USED to go across the road but the EAA has found paying exhibitors for that space.

[Cary]

Your late model spam can is not. I know you don't think it's fair, but that's the way the EAA runs. People don't come to see an 80's era POS Cherokee.This is really unnecessary name-calling. I for one (and there are many others like me) enjoy wandering the lines in the North 40 and the South 40 to see airplanes, period. The owner of any 20 or 30 year old airplane which has been lovingly maintained or restored doesn't need his/her pride and joy villified by calling it a spam can or POS anything.

As it happens, my 50 year old airplane has been mistaken many times for a much newer airplane--in fact, the first time I parked in the South 40 because it qualified for VAC, I had some arrogant know-it-all snidely ask how it was that I was able to park there with my newer airplane.

Perhaps we can all agree that EAA should revisit how airplanes are parked at Airventure, but the North 40 isn't nearly as tightly crowded as some have suggested here, nor is the South 40 a hugely desirable luxurious wide open area--it gives up the desirable luxury by being as far from the activities as it's possible and still be at OSH. Here's a Google maps pic of the 2011 set-up: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oshkosh,+WI&hl=en&ll=43.978055,-88.556671&spn=0.02452,0.048666&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=54.621153,99.667969&vpsrc=6&hnear=Oshkosh,+Winnebago,+Wisconsin&t=h&z=15&iwloc=A. At the time it was taken, the rows south of my airplane had grown to 8--there were 3 rows behind my row when I was first parked there on Sunday. The fact is, when you choose to fly into the busiest airport in the world, parking will not be perfect. But you'll be there, and with the right attitude, you'll have a good time. Really! :D

Cary

[FlyingRon]

I've got no problem withe the EAA adjusting things. They HAVE adjusted things continually in the twenty four years I've been attending Oshkosh.
Sorry about the POS comment, but that doesn't change the fundamental fact that will be TOUGH to change at Oshkosh. The north 40 "GA" aircraft are NOT part of the show. While they finally have a liaison appointed, they are not represented by the an EAA membership organization like WOA, IAC, Vintage, UL, etc... It is essentially nothing more than a parking lot, no different than the auto lots for people attending, rather than being PART of the show.

[eaajen]

By EAA definition, homebuilts, warbirds, ultralights, rotorcraft, and vintage ARE showplanes regardless of how pretty they are. Your late model spam can is not. I know you don't think it's fair, but that's the way the EAA runs. People don't come to see an 80's era POS Cherokee.

All the parking south of the COM shack/ Vintage Red Barn with the exception of the Ultralight area and three rows next to the Zaugs trailers is Vintage. The area you are talking about (between the Theatre in the woods/Red Barn back to the Hangar Cafe area, is prime Vintage real estate. The first four or five rows of that are reserved for the pre-1945 stuff as well.


Hi ron,

1. I know all planes in those groups are by definition show planes. What I am getting at is the determination to include them in the category is semantics, arbitrary, and it's leaving acres free and open in the S and cramped conditions in the N.

2. I am NOT talking about that field. I said the field south of that field, the one surrounded by trees. It's even rather hidden. It's NOT the field you mentioned.

3. "Late model spam can..."? "'80s era POW Cherokee"? I feel you are being derogatory, and that is uncalled for. I'd like to ask you to please refer to us with dignity, please. We are as much a part of the EAA as anyone.

4. If Vintage, Warbirds, etc., can have their own group within the EAA and designate themselves showplanes, then MODERN aircraft should be able to, as well: A "Modern Aircraft Association," a division with in the EAA as well as any other.

My plane is a 2009 CSA SportCruiser, not an "'80s POS Cherokee." It's an S-LSA, production aircraft. When I stop for fuel anywhere, I get people looking at it, remarking that it looks sleek... It looks rather like a metal version of a Glassair, though it only goes 134 mph. It's quite different. People ask what it is..... I've owned a variety of aircraft in Vintage for 20 years, and none of them have gotten the looks this one gets, and it's the NEW, MODERN DESIGN that's doing it.

There are a lot of such newer planes that people like to see. The new, modern designs are turning heads....

....not so much a 1968 Bonanza, or a 1965 Cherokee, both of which are designated by Vintage as showplanes.

Like I'm saying, the definition of what is and what is not, is arbitrary, by agreement. And the newer ones are turning heads.

So why can't we be given as much consideration?

If it's needed we have our own association within the EAA, then why can't we?

Jen

[RickFE]

I like the N 40. It may be a bit tight but my 3 man tent seems to fit behind the left tent ok, along with my cooler etc. One year we even had two tents and it worked out nicely.

I have a 65 Cherokee so I guess I have the option of doing VAC but I felt that the nice facilities and closeness to things trumped the VAC area. I could live with either but still think I will ask for the GAC N-40 again this year. Besides, I don't spend much time there anyway except at the end of the day when I crawl in my bag and snooze out until the next fun filled day.

Flew to S n F this year. If I do it again next year, I think I will go VAC though. Just seems closer to the things I want to get to.

[eaajen]

I think that, even if Airventure wants older planes (pre '70 ish) to be "showplanes" and have an area for them, then the space still needs to be re-allocated, as the North 40 is so very cramped. You can see what I'm talking about on Google Earth.

North 40 planes are T-ed, overcrowded. Sometimes a plane puts out multiple tents. Sometimes tents crowd into the taxilanes -- see the google earth site for yourself.......

....All this so that acres of open, usually un-used space is available for Vintage or other?

If a 1969 172 is a showplane, then why isn't a modern SLSA?

I think the idea of having older planes be part of the show is great. Truly. But I think time marched on, and space-allocation needs to march with it.

Jen