Rogue Major Warbird Gathering Scheduled During Oshkosh

[Floatsflyer]

:mad:
Is somebody sending a loud message to AV? The organizers to provide slot holders with revenue sharing, subsidization of fuel costs plus free food, beer and wine!

Can't be an accident that it's scheduled Aug.1-4 although the organizers say they've been in communication with AV about the date early on in the planning stage.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Warbird_Gathering_Topeka_208107-1.html

[Zack Baughman]

From the organizers' website:

"WHY THESE DATES?

Due to the many conflicting industry conventions and Airshows during other times of the year, these dates (August 1 – 4 , 2013) represent the least schedule conflict, and the most opportunity for all. In addition, and strategically speaking, “the Gathering” could be used by those warbird operators in the western half of the United States that may want to attend Airventure 2013 and still make their return trips south and westward towards their home base at the end of that show in northern Wisconsin. For information purposes, Airventure starts early this year on Monday, July 29 – with emphasis on being there early. According to the EAA web site, all Airventure tickets purchased for Monday (the 29th) include free access to the grounds for Sunday the 28th. The gathering of Legends and Warbirds is in full support of Airventure and Mr. Jack Pelton, Chairman of Airventure 2013 (i.e. Oshkosh) who is not only a true pilot and aviation enthusiast, but also is a true friend to aviation and a Warbird supporter. Communication was established early on during the initial planning stages of the Topeka gathering, should these dates be out of line in any way. At this time of communication with Chairman Pelton he was invited to enter discussions regarding these convention dates, (AUG 1 – 4) We salute Mr. Pelton for his team thinking, leadership, and his form of input into this process and agree with him that these dates (August 1 – 4) will provide another great nationwide choice for pilots, owners, and aircraft history buffs not necessarily able to afford the expenses, or longevity of Airventure.

Additionally, others may find Topeka a more informal and less restrictive environment as an affordable refuge after attending an early arrival, setup, and mid-week departure from Airventure 2013, and would normally be completing a full fourth day on Wednesday at that convention. The organizers of the Gathering of Legends and Warbirds fully supports and endorses those operators who elect to choose to attend Airventure 2013 only, or possibly both, and wish them all Godspeed, tailwinds, and the fortune of additional options regarding their preferences. Those operators (That hold a valid slot award) that elect to participate in both could still depart Airventure after the airshow on Thursday and easily make the short flight non-stop to Topeka to be in time for free dinner on the ramp, free beer, and fuel at $2.00 per gallon. These dates seem to make a perfect match yielding the most options for each warbird operator."

[FlyingRon]

If you don't think the warbirds have been disappearing towards the end of the week even without the offer of free beer you've not been paying attention the past few years.

[MEdwards]

How could this not impact the "Warbird Spectacular" shows on Friday and Saturday, which already are considerably less impressive than in former years? I know people seeing them for the first time love it, and I do too, but still there were fewer aircraft and there was less variety in 2012 than in previous years I've attended.

[RV8505]

:mad:
Is somebody sending a loud message to AV? The organizers to provide slot holders with revenue sharing, subsidization of fuel costs plus free food, beer and wine!

Can't be an accident that it's scheduled Aug.1-4 although the organizers say they've been in communication with AV about the date early on in the planning stage.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Warbird_Gathering_Topeka_208107-1.html


I don't blame them going for $2.00 per gallon gas and all the free stuff but if your one of the aircraft not being subsidized why would you want to go? I could see dropping by on the way home if you could get some of that $2.00 per gallon gas action. It all sounds well and good but what happens if it rains and or they don't get the take at the gate they are expecting. Somebody is going to be on the hook for a lot of gas.

[Floatsflyer]

From the organizers' website:

"WHY THESE DATES?

Due to the many conflicting industry conventions and Airshows during other times of the year, these dates (August 1 – 4 , 2013) represent the least schedule conflict, and the most opportunity for all."

This statement from this new Topeka warbird show site on "why these dates" doesn't pass the smell test. In an attempt to convince everyone(including Topeka and EAA) that there is no animosity between the inaugaral show and AV and that the kids are playing nicey nice in the sandbox, what is being sold here is smoke and mirrors.

This statement is simply not supported by the factual reality. At World Airshow News which lists every event for 2013 world-wide, there are only 2 US shows that dare conflict with AV: The Boeing Airshow way out in Seattle(Aug 2-4) and The Milwaukee Air & Water Show(Aug 3-4). These are general shows. To compare the more relevant apples to apples, i.e. Warbird centric conflicting shows, there simply is nothing. According to Warbirds & Airshows.com, the last show before this new Topeka one is July 12-14 & July 13-14(Geneseo Show in New York state & USAM Presents a Gathering of Eagles in Willoughby, Ohio respectively) and the next one is not until Sept 7( the Waukehan Show). Far from "many conflicting....Airshows..."

They can say what they want but there is another agenda at work and it seems much much clearer in reality. I wish the Topeka organizers were more honest about their motives. It would reflect what most already know here on this forum about "Why These Dates?"

[Bill Greenwood]

I can say that a quite awhile ago, late 80s, I went to an airshow at Topeka at Forbes Field and we were very well treated. They have a nice museum there and the people were friendly. It was standard airshow reimbursment for those times, not any short of a share the revenue plan. I recall a part of the museum was a display of a allied hut in a German pow camp.

If you are just looking for a warbird show, there are somethings that EAA lacks, but there is much more to Osh than that.
If I couldn't go to Osh, I might plan on Kansas, or if it was on my way home, I might leave Osh Sat afternoon and have Sun at Kansas.
I don't know Scott Glover, but he owns a C-47, so that is great.

But Osh is the only place I have been every year since I began.

[Marc_CYBW]

Never did figure out what warbirds and home built aircraft have in common, other than being aircraft. Maybe something to ponder as EAA redefines its purpose and re-focuses.

[kscessnadriver]

Never did figure out what warbirds and home built aircraft have in common, other than being aircraft. Maybe something to ponder as EAA redefines its purpose and re-focuses.

Because the general public isn't going to show up to Oshkosh without those warbirds flying. Face it, Joe Q Public couldn't care less about 16 RV-whatevers doing overhead breaks while wearing flight suits in military colors.

[Bill Greenwood]

Marc, which would you like EAA to do without, all the warbirds or all the homebuilts?

I like the idea of EAA as a big tent.

Many warbird owners have another more mainstream gen av airplane also, and many homebuilt owners would like to have a B-17 or P-51.

[WLIU]

I don't know if any of the readers here have done a nose count at the warbird area of OSH, but if a few go south, it will NOT be empty. The Topeka show has a limited number of slots. That speaks to their physical capacity and their budget. I suspect that if 10 B-17's show up asking for 1000 gallons of discount gas each, their budget might fail.

The WW II aircraft are not THAT much of an endangered species. And the the demographics are shifting. My generation remembers SPADs (A-1 or AD Skyraider depending on your age) and Phantoms and Hueys. Misty and Raven and Carbine. The WW II aircraft are great but are a less visceral connection to the Vietnam generation. I have a memory of looking up to see a SPAD enter the pattern overhead at 2000' and do a 720 circling approach (two complete orbits descending to avoid ground fire). P-51's are pretty but that is all. And the pilots who did the hard work are not the ones flying them today. I remember being able to meet a guy named Gregory Boyington at OSH. That's one reason I keep going.

But I would like to see Leo Thorsness or John Morrissey standing next to an F-105 on the ramp at OSH. Go look them up.

The EAA convention is a big tent that evolves and can surely handle a smaller "boutique" show running at the same time.

Regards,

Wes
N78PS

[Kevin O'Halloran]

If you look at pictures of the very first EAA flyin--there were spam cans and warbirds there--more so than homebuilts.
It all came down to the love of flight and airplanes (all kinds)--so it would be stupid to try and exclude anyone now
Kevin

[Floatsflyer]

I don't know if any of the readers here have done a nose count at the warbird area of OSH, but if a few go south, it will NOT be empty. The Topeka show has a limited number of slots. That speaks to their physical capacity and their budget. I suspect that if 10 B-17's show up asking for 1000 gallons of discount gas each, their budget might fail.

The WW II aircraft are not THAT much of an endangered species. And the the demographics are shifting. My generation remembers SPADs (A-1 or AD Skyraider depending on your age) and Phantoms and Hueys. Misty and Raven and Carbine. The WW II aircraft are great but are a less visceral connection to the Vietnam generation. I have a memory of looking up to see a SPAD enter the pattern overhead at 2000' and do a 720 circling approach (two complete orbits descending to avoid ground fire). P-51's are pretty but that is all. And the pilots who did the hard work are not the ones flying them today. I remember being able to meet a guy named Gregory Boyington at OSH. That's one reason I keep going.

But I would like to see Leo Thorsness or John Morrissey standing next to an F-105 on the ramp at OSH. Go look them up.

The EAA convention is a big tent that evolves and can surely handle a smaller "boutique" show running at the same time.

Regards,

Wes
N78PS

The Warbird area at OSH will not be empty but it will be "emptier" and such has been the case year over year since 2008, the beginning of the recession. And I'm not speaking about the multitude of L4 types but rather the Allison and RR engined types. 65 slot aircraft(+others that are sure to attend without benefits) is NOT a "boutique" show by any measure. Of course they have a budget but it must be a calculated open concept one because the website says the VIP benefits(revenue sharing, free stuff and $2.00/gal. gas) accorded to the slotted pilots and passengers is "virtually unlimited". This is an incredible, hard to resist incentive to apply for a slot and attend. If I was an owner/operator of one of these warbird money pits I'd be there in a Hollywood minute.

There is no chance 10 B-17's will be showing up looking for cheap fill-ups. There are aircraft type categories of slots with maximums for each(take a look). Only 1 slot each for a B-17 as well as other 4 engine type bombers.

The organizers make it clear that they're not looking for the most number of warbirds but rather some of the most rare types. They state they want to attract the most talented pilots/crews and provide them with extraordinary support and appreciation that they deserve. It's the most fundamental aspect of human nature--we go where we are loved, appreciated and wanted(and throwing in $$$ incentives doesn't hurt)

[Bill Greenwood]

Wes, did you really mean what you wrote, "P-51s are pretty, but that's about all"

That's just silly. Yes 51 are pretty, so is an Italian Macchi, sp?

But a 51 was a major fighter in a major war, and it was a justified war if any of them were justified.
The 51 was the premier fighter of the last phase of the war, when the Alllies moved from the defensive Battles of Britain and Malta, etc. and when on the offensive with long range bomber missions both in Europe and even more so to Japan.
There are other fighters that may be as good or even better in close, Spitfire, but none in the same class as a 51 for range.
And 51s even fought in Korea, only a few piston fighters did that, Fury, Seafire, Corsair, but not 47s or P-38s.

You mention the Vietnam war as a memory for younger vets and the AD and 105. The war itself was nowhere nearly the equivalent of WW II, and served mainly as a 15 year example of what not to do.
In WW II we fought against a technologyicaly advanced major military and industrial power, Germany, and we won. In Nam we invaded, on bogus Bay of Pigs propaganda, a 3rd world country, at best, and we lost.
In WWII we had the support of most of our population, especially after Hitler invaded France and after Pearl Harbor. We had disenters like Lindberg, but we did not shoot them. The most uncivil thing we did was the internment of Japanese Americans.
During Nam, our domestic scene became a disgrace. We lost pubic support for the war, and it was carried on by Nixon long after he had public support. We had the shooting of unarmed students at Kent State and Jackson State and all the Watergate type attempts to stifle public opinion and free speech.
If you graded wars on perhaps 10 categories, like Did we enter the war for a just reason and on the riight side, and How many men did we lose, and Did we win? ; then Nam would fail on all 3. It might only pass on the effort and courage, by many individual soldiers, and perhaps on developing some new weapons.
We went into WW II for the right reason, were supported by most of the free world and had our reputation enhanced by the war. Not so for Nam, few other countries, even Britain sided with us and we lost prestige in most of the world.

I don't care for the looks of a Skyraider, sort of a big truck., though I understand some of them fly well. And a plane, a weapon can be good and not be sleek, like and A-10.
But surely neither the AD or 105 had as major an impact on that war as 51s had in WW II.

And in civilian use today,there are very few AD s flying, no 105s that I know of while the 51 is one of the most useful civilian flown warbirds. And it sounds a lot better than either an AD or a 105, and smells a lot better than a 105.

One of my best friends, Maj. Warner Giles flew in combat in Nam, in both F-4 and gunships. Great guy, not a great war.

[WLIU]

Well, if you want to hijack this thread, the men and women who flew over SE Asia did the best that they could with the equipment on hand. They did their job without regard to the politics of the time just like all fighter pilots do. Go look up the Red River Fighter Pilots Association and read what some of those folks did. I am privileged to fly with some of them and they are an under appreciated story.

But my larger point is that if we all want to get the attention of the baby boomers, their attendance, support and $$, then you have to move forward in time. Yeager was not the last fighter pilot.

I do not know if there is a population of Vietnam era folks who will come to Airventure if there were more 1960's warbirds on the line. But for the younger audience these days, I will suggest that the 1940's are ancient history, maybe just after the fall of Rome. So in terms of attracting an audience to the big show, its worth a discussion.

As for me personally, everyone's perspective is different. P-51's are nice, but for me a SPAD is a big sturdy tough beautiful machine. For the last 30 years, no country has fielded a competitive air superiority challenge, but I know lots of pilots who spent a lot of flight hours hunting SAMs and trucks and tanks and other ground targets while dodging glowing BB's. And when one of the guys I fly with went down outside Hanoi, seeing a SPAD overhead was a wonderful thing. My step son would tell you that the A-10 that he flew halfway across the globe and into the center of Iraq during the recent unpleasantness, is THE beautiful jet. Most folks don't know that the A-10 is the current successor the the SPAD and uses the same call sign.

And for my generation, I can sort of steal the movie line and say "I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning".

Anyway, time moves on and to keep the big show fresh, we all need to recognize that.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[RV8505]

I think it is a matter of who made who, Without the pilots that flew them in combat, the P-51 is just another airplane. It is nice people can afford warbirds but they don't really garner any respect in comparison to a genuine military pilot who flew combat. Most of the greatest generation is gone or is shortly about to pass but we still have valiant (Korea, Vietnam, Grenada Desert Storm, Cold War) aviators among us and they also have a story to tell. We need to celebrate them and hear what they have to say. Anyway, most of the warbirds out there flying are mostly shadows of their former selves. They are stripped of military hardware and were never painted that nice in combat zones. They were just tools of war to be used, abused, and thrown away.

[WLIU]

F-105 restoration news..... http://collingsfoundation.org/enews/enewsletter_105.2010.htm

[Bill Greenwood]

Wes, no one doubts the amount of effort that many U S soldiers and airmen made in the Vietnam war, but if wars were judged by effort alone, then how about the effort made by many German pilots? All the top aces were German with 10 times as many kills as Yeager, etc. and none of their efforts made Hitler or the Nazis in the right.

How would you score the efforts of the VC or NVA who, mostly by sheer determination finally defeated and expelled the strongest military nation in the world?

[Floatsflyer]

And for my generation, I can sort of steal the movie line and say "I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning".

One of the best iconic movie lines of all time is actually, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it smells like victory." From Apocalypse Now.

And further more, if some of you guys want to have a pissing match over which era warbird is better(bigger?), or which war was more justified or which era combat pilot should be more valued or revered today then start a new thread!!

IMO, the implications of the competing scheduled Topeka show are important enough to have an impact(negative? positive?) on the presentation of AV as well as the expectations of attendees this year. It deserves our attention to discuss without going off on questionable tangents.

[RV8505]

One of the best iconic movie lines of all time is actually, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it smells like victory." From Apocalypse Now.

And further more, if some of you guys want to have a pissing match over which era warbird is better(bigger?), or which war was more justified or which era combat pilot should be more valued or revered today then start a new thread!!

IMO, the implications of the competing scheduled Topeka show are important enough to have an impact(negative? positive?) on the presentation of AV as well as the expectations of attendees this year. It deserves our attention to discuss without going off on tangents.

I wouldn't worry about it. If they don't collect enough money at the gate, it has all the makings of a spectacular train wreck. They have to fuel all of those planes! I'm glad it's not my problem. Look at the planes they have signed up, Nothing really great! Nor do they seem to have any real sponsors. Not that I wish them ill but I don't think they are going to get the attendance they need. Lots of things happen at Airventure on Thursday, Friday and Saturday and who can pass up the night Airshow! Also the Warbird banquet is on Saturday. I'll probably stay up again late on Saturday for the night airshow, wake up late and see a few friends and fly out before the Sunday airshow starts. I'm pretty airshowed out at the end of Oshkosh. I'll go by Topeka around 6:00 or 7:00 P.M. Sunday night on the way home. It probably wouldn't be a bad time to stop by there as the crowds will be gone. Maybe we could get some flat beer, stale sandwiches and free camping with some of the remaining pilots on the airfield. Maybe we could talk to the local EAA chapter in to having a late Sunday night pancake breakfast.

[Floatsflyer]

I wouldn't worry about it. If they don't collect enough money at the gate, it has all the makings of a spectacular train wreck. They have to fuel all of those planes! I'm glad it's not my problem. Look at the planes they have signed up, Nothing really great! Nor do they seem to have any real sponsors. Not that I wish them ill but I don't think they are going to get the attendance they need. Lots of things happen at Airventure on Thursday, Friday and Saturday and who can pass up the night Airshow! Also the Warbird banquet is on Saturday. I'll probably stay up again late on Saturday for the night airshow, wake up late and see a few friends and fly out before the Sunday airshow starts. I'm pretty airshowed out at the end of Oshkosh. I'll go by Topeka around 6:00 or 7:00 P.M. Sunday night on the way home. It probably wouldn't be a bad time to stop by there as the crowds will be gone. Maybe we could get some flat beer, stale sandwiches and free camping with some of the remaining pilots on the airfield. Maybe we could talk to the local EAA chapter in to having a late Sunday night pancake breakfast.

Thanks for bringing it back on track.

I'm not worried but there is very good reason to be concerned. In business, if you ignore or don't pay attention to the competition(especially a new competitor), then that's called hubris and arrogance and you will be doomed to be overtaken by them. They're 6 months away, way too early to determine or conclude success or failure. I'll be scanning their site in the coming months for updates.

I'd like to go there after AV as well as we too fly back on Sunday(or Sat. if the forecast is better) but we have a non-stop haul of 4 hours almost due east over a couple of large Great Lakes.

[RV8505]

Thanks for bringing it back on track.

I'm not worried but there is very good reason to be concerned. In business, if you ignore or don't pay attention to the competition(especially a new competitor), then that's called hubris and arrogance and you will be doomed to be overtaken by them. They're 6 months away, way too early to determine or conclude success or failure. I'll be scanning their site in the coming months for updates.

I'd like to go there after AV as well as we too fly back on Sunday(or Sat. if the forecast is better) but we have a non-stop haul of 4 hours almost due east over a couple of large Great Lakes.

Like I said I wish them luck.. Maybe those guys in the DC-3's can get some flying time in. I put on a couple airshow events once and everything is fine while the sky is blue. However, it rained once and I about had a heart attack. Anyway, I sent them a Email about them hosting a mass fly-in of GA aircraft from Oshkosh departing before the Sun Airshow direct to Topeka. No way am I going to forgo the night Oshkosh airshow! I usally leave Oshkosh before Noon on Sunday Anyway. I also asked him if it was possible to keep the museum open late as well. I think it would be cool place to stop, No crowds, Food, Fellow Aviators, and a good nights rest before the long flight home. One of the guys sent me a Email back and they seemed receptive to the Idea. Personaly I think they should knock off Thursday, Friday, and add a Monday.

If you think about it Sun and fun isn't a destination but merly a stop for those heading to South Florida. I tried to look at some planes there but alot of them they blast off right after the Airshow and head for the Keys.

[Mayhemxpc]

Just my few cents:

1. Warbirds of America at AirVenture does a great job of making WB pilots feel special, no matter what warbird you fly (I fly an O-2). I appreciate it and it makes me want to come back.

2. There are over 300 warbirds that come to AirVenture (not all might truly be warbirds -- e.g., Navions painted up like L-17s) but it is a LOT

3. Most of them leave on Saturday. (My plane was REAL lonely on Sunday when we left.) So if things started on Saturday, there would be no noticeable loss at AirVenture

4. Those who already spent a week at AirVenture may not have the stamina for another few days elsewhere. (But what do I know?)

5. I am in favor of anything that gets the public more aware of aviation as a positive thing. Warbirds draw the crowds, allowing them to learn about all kinds of aviation. Planes are easier to move than crowds. (If you have any doubts, watch a 380 being loaded at Heathrow.) Oshkosh is great, but we need to bring the airplanes to where the people are.

6. That said, it is the opposite direction from where I want to go, and I will have been away from home long enough by then.