medical exemption killing LSA

[Tlb67]

The wait on the exemption and possably just the thought of the exemption is killing LSA manufactures. Just wait and see how many will me gone before the ruling does or ever passes

[Kyle Boatright]

The wait on the exemption and possably just the thought of the exemption is killing LSA manufactures. Just wait and see how many will me gone before the ruling does or ever passes

I've said the same thing. That said, the LSA spec is arbitrary and resulted in a set of aircraft and manufacturers that wouldn't exist without that arbitrary set of rules. The last thing LSA manufacturers want is for their design point to go away.

[Hiperbiper]

This is true should the FAA rule in the affirmitive on the Rule.
People owning the "purpose built" LSA's (Remos, Flight design ect.) will take a huge hit.
On the flipside maybe the days of the $40-50K Piper Cub and Airknocker will wane...
I also know of 2 pilots who will have much pulling of hair and grinding of teeth...they sold RV-8's to go light sport...

So should the rule actually happen there will be winners and losers just as in any game. It sucks and it doesn't suck. It depends what you own/want to own.

I still contend (as long as it didn't reference any speeds) that a cap of 200HP would be more in line with the current "more than 200HP is considered High Performance" standard already in vogue in the FAR's.



Alas nobody asked me...

Chris

[akroflyer]

The medical issue is not what is killing LSA, its the $130,000 price tag!

[Tlb67]

Yes a brand new LSA is expensive , but take alook at material cost alone to build one
Tenn- Air is tring to offer a SLSA for 75,000 price range
you are talking roughly 20,000 for the kit /materials , 25,000 aprox for engine , at least 7,000 to 10,000 for avionics thats over 50,00 already with out any labor costs or paint(paint is cost are very undestimated)
Pete`s 750 is very reasanable cost wise . I know the cost of composite material make the composite type aircraft higher
I am not saying they are cheap!! I couldnt afford anyone but Im saying right know at this moment in time with the possable exemtion you have customers that would buy one , holding off and waiting for a ruling and the manufatures are really hurting It seems it has always benn dificult to be in the airplane buisness

[Joe LaMantia]

Well yes of course some buyers will take a wait and see, but let's remember that there are some people who can't afford to get a PPL but can afford the Sport Pilot License so there is a market. In addition, many of the the guys who will benefit from the "waiver" can't afford a new LSA. I'd bet most of the people who take advantage of this new rule, if it comes to pass, will just continue to fly what they have been flying and save a few $ on the Medical Certification. All those Doc's who have AME certificates will be losing customers as well. The reality of the whole LSA thing is it was founded with the hope of building up the shrinking pilot population. It took too long to pass and the impact of "aircraft economics" reduced the potential market size. There have been many articles written recently forecasting a "shake-out" in the LSA industry, too many players fighting for too small a market. This will happen for more than one reason, it's called the "Free Market" and demand will increase when price falls just as prices rise when demand increases. The LSA market is not large and that is not due to the proposed waiver. I would argue that the waiver proposal is a direct response to the failure of the LSA effort to generate the impact that inspired its creation.

Joe
:cool:

[martymayes]

The wait on the exemption and possably just the thought of the exemption is killing LSA manufactures.


How did you arrive at that conclusion? I will offer LSA manufacturers are being killed by a continuing bad economy.

[Kyle Boatright]

How did you arrive at that conclusion? I will offer LSA manufacturers are being killed by a continuing bad economy.

That too, but who wants to spend $100k+ on an LSA when new rules could come out tomorrow which would let you fly a much more capable airplane without a medical. That would instantly substantially devalue and obsolete the $100k LSA.

[martymayes]

You guys do realize the third class exemption is dead? DOA? Nada? Not happening?

[akroflyer]

Third class exemption is dead? Thats news to me!

[Racegunz]

Yes a brand new LSA is expensive , but take alook at material cost alone to build one
Tenn- Air is tring to offer a SLSA for 75,000 price range
you are talking roughly 20,000 for the kit /materials , 25,000 aprox for engine , at least 7,000 to 10,000 for avionics thats over 50,00 already with out any labor costs or paint(paint is cost are very undestimated)
Pete`s 750 is very reasanable cost wise . I know the cost of composite material make the composite type aircraft higher
I am not saying they are cheap!! I couldnt afford anyone but Im saying right know at this moment in time with the possable exemtion you have customers that would buy one , holding off and waiting for a ruling and the manufatures are really hurting It seems it has always benn dificult to be in the airplane buisness

HAHA! 75k reasonable? that's funny, I mean really funny!, first off the engines should be 10k not 20-30k the price is SOOOOO inflated,Labor is only high (if it's high at all) because of poor production methods, painting processes are regulated but again it's about the volume and methods, you can justify it because of the overwhelming regulation and legal costs but it still doesn't make it "reasonable". I have a little over 20k in my experimental and I can assure you my building was anything but efficient.

[kscessnadriver]

HAHA! 75k reasonable? that's funny, I mean really funny!, first off the engines should be 10k not 20-30k the price is SOOOOO inflated,Labor is only high (if it's high at all) because of poor production methods, painting processes are regulated but again it's about the volume and methods, you can justify it because of the overwhelming regulation and legal costs but it still doesn't make it "reasonable". I have a little over 20k in my experimental and I can assure you my building was anything but efficient.

Yes, you don't have to carry the insurance a manufacture has to carry, because they will be sued sooner or later.

[martymayes]

I have a little over 20k in my experimental and I can assure you my building was anything but efficient.

But it was educational...

[Kyle Boatright]

HAHA! 75k reasonable? that's funny, I mean really funny!, first off the engines should be 10k not 20-30k the price is SOOOOO inflated,Labor is only high (if it's high at all) because of poor production methods, painting processes are regulated but again it's about the volume and methods, you can justify it because of the overwhelming regulation and legal costs but it still doesn't make it "reasonable". I have a little over 20k in my experimental and I can assure you my building was anything but efficient.

Here's another way to look at it. The kit for an RV-12 is about $70k. That's everything but the paint. It doesn't include any assembly labor. Certainly, Van's and the others in the supply chain have a profit built into the kit price, but I'd look at $70k as the materials cost for a metal LSA aircraft. Add in labor (call it 500 hours at $50/hr to account for shop space, tools, utilities, etc.) plus $10k for painting the thing and you're at $105k before corporate overhead, taxes, insurance, and profit. Looking at it that way, $125k seems like a reasonable retail price for a similar LSA. Not that it is a reasonable value, but it is a reasonable price.

[David Pavlich]

After reading this and a similar thread on a different forum and then reading the FAA regs on blood pressure, I'm beginning to get just a bit nervous. I've been on BP meds for about 15 years which is analopril, 20mg, once a day. It's contolled just fine with the meds. Does this mean that I have little or no chance at a private certification or do I have to find a doc that will pass me as long as I pay a "fee"?

Thanks!

David

[Mike Switzer]

As long as your BP is controlled by meds it is fairly easy, you just need a status letter from your GP, a EKG, & possibly a couple other blood tests depending on what meds you are on.

[Mike Switzer]

Third class exemption is dead? Thats news to me!

The FAA told both AOPA & EAA sometime last summer "No way, No how" yet they keep acting like it is a possibility. Some of the AMEs had a plan using the same standards required for a commercial driver's license but AOPA at least (not sure about EAA) rejected it as too restrictive.

[David Pavlich]

As long as your BP is controlled by meds it is fairly easy, you just need a status letter from your GP, a EKG, & possibly a couple other blood tests depending on what meds you are on.

Thanks, Mike. I'm also on a staten, Vitorin 10/20, and take a physical once a year. As a matter of fact, I do my blood draws this Tuesday and the physical the following week (not FAA, just my yearly deal :-)). My liver function, a critical test for anyone on a staten, has been fine. My BP is fine on the meds. Still, this makes me just a bit nervous. I'll still start the lessons when the time comes and just hope that the local FAA approved doc is ok. Maybe I ought to go on a diet now that the holidays are over. Well, after Carnival season, maybe.

David

[zaitcev]

The question was raised many times before. The official line from the leading LSA manufacturers is that they'll be all right, competing with other makers of new airplanes. Even Icon may win with this, by taking a certification route, while keeping their customers.

[Hal Bryan]

The FAA told both AOPA & EAA sometime last summer "No way, No how" yet they keep acting like it is a possibility.


You guys do realize the third class exemption is dead? DOA? Nada? Not happening?

Not true. The exemption is still under review by the FAA as we published here:

http://eaa.org/news/2013/2013-01-10_FAA-still-reviewing-medical-certification-exemption-request.asp

[Mike Switzer]

Not true. The exemption is still under review by the FAA as we published here:

http://eaa.org/news/2013/2013-01-10_FAA-still-reviewing-medical-certification-exemption-request.asp

I understand that it is still LEGALLY under review, but when both the Federal Air Surgeon & the then-acting (recently confirmed) head of the FAA both said it was a non-starter do you really think there is any chance of the proposal going anywhere?

[Tlb67]

Oooh Im not saying you cant build one cheaper,Im just saying the have fixed cost on parts that are not under their control( engine, avionics,materials,labor) the price for a factory LSA is going to be at least costs,markup is up to them. The hole statement Im making is that before the excemtion possability ,LSA companies where selling and after the orders and sells fell off the cliff and I pesonally know one that will be gone shortly

[Racegunz]

Oooh Im not saying you cant build one cheaper,Im just saying the have fixed cost on parts that are not under their control( engine, avionics,materials,labor) the price for a factory LSA is going to be at least costs,markup is up to them. The hole statement Im making is that before the excemtion possability ,LSA companies where selling and after the orders and sells fell off the cliff and I pesonally know one that will be gone shortly

Well I hate to see aviation continue it's decline no matter what the reason, and of course everyone in business needs to make a profit, but to do that they need to make sales and grow their market. Van's is doing it "apparently" and at what I consider high prices but it's all perspective and this is just mine. I was hoping the Medical exemption would go through just so vintage LSA qualified aircraft would come back down to a price that would make them attractive to own and be worth saving, again just my reason, I feel it will indeed "kill" the LSA/SLSA market. It won't kill the sport pilot program though I'm pretty sure that's here to stay. As for insurance I am sure it's a large burden that once again would be offset by volume....which isn't there.

[cub builder]

The wait on the exemption and possably just the thought of the exemption is killing LSA manufactures. Just wait and see how many will me gone before the ruling does or ever passes

Older pilots are leaving aviation in droves thanks to the ridiculous and unnecessary requirements of the third class medicals. The LSA class was created with an arbitrary set of numbers to keep pilots involved in sport aviation as well as to use as a stepping stone to get more pilots into aviation. However, new LSA Aircraft are prohibitively expensive. Is it better to continue driving down the number of pilots to save the LSA class, or allow more aircraft to be flow under similar rules to keep more pilots involved in aviation and to introduce more pilots to aviation by making it more affordable?

Additionally, the low gross weight and light wing loading of the LSA class has lead to a very high accident rate in those aircraft. The FAA has recognized this and 2 years ago had their FAST teams out talking to LSA pilots about the problems. Allowing pilots to continue flying the heavier aircraft as proposed in the 3rd class medical exemption will help reduce that accident rate. So, do we want to protect an industry class or do we want to protect pilots and keep them involved in aviation?

-CubBuilder

[martymayes]

Not true. The exemption is still under review by the FAA as we published here:

What you mean is they are still following the rulemaking process. At the completion of the 'review,' no action will be taken and the proposal with wither and die. The problem is proponents have failed to prove their case that safety will not be compromised by lack of medical certification.

[tonycondon]

LSA was created to bring "fat" ultralights into regulated aviation where they belonged. any other "reason" was invented by EAA, AOPA, and anyone else who was hoping to make a few bucks building LSA compliant airplanes.


Older pilots are leaving aviation in droves thanks to the ridiculous and unnecessary requirements of the third class medicals. The LSA class was created with an arbitrary set of numbers to keep pilots involved in sport aviation as well as to use as a stepping stone to get more pilots into aviation. However, new LSA Aircraft are prohibitively expensive. Is it better to continue driving down the number of pilots to save the LSA class, or allow more aircraft to be flow under similar rules to keep more pilots involved in aviation and to introduce more pilots to aviation by making it more affordable?

Additionally, the low gross weight and light wing loading of the LSA class has lead to a very high accident rate in those aircraft. The FAA has recognized this and 2 years ago had their FAST teams out talking to LSA pilots about the problems. Allowing pilots to continue flying the heavier aircraft as proposed in the 3rd class medical exemption will help reduce that accident rate. So, do we want to protect an industry class or do we want to protect pilots and keep them involved in aviation?

-CubBuilder

[Joe LaMantia]

Here's a couple more thoughts;

Kyle has put together a pretty helpful cost estimate, I'd add that Van has stated many times that the basic airframe cost for a 2 place aircraft is about the same for his LSA and any of this non-LSA kits. He presented that thumb-nail back when the RV-12 was introduced. As for the LSA market, it will live in the training world with a reduced market beyond that if the 3rd Class waiver passes. Cessna has invested in the Skycatcher as the new C-150/152 replacement, sure the company would like to sell as many of these as possible in the USA, but the big growth market is really China. I'd sure like to hear what Jack Pelton has to say on this subject, maybe Hal can poke the bear on this topic! Every time we get a thread on the LSA we get a bunch of guys grousing about the cost...wake up and smell the coffee. Low volume production with high purchased content is not a formula for low prices. Everybody in the chain has to recover all their costs plus get something extra for their stockholders.

Joe
:cool:

[martymayes]

In a press release last summer, Cessna says they are moving certification of the C-162 Skycatcher from LSA to Primary Catergory. Apparently, this will facilitate sales in Europe. Not sure how it will affect sales in other parts of the world but clearly Cessna is not counting on a large chunk of future Skycatcher sales being here in the U.S.

[Tom Charpentier]

I understand that it is still LEGALLY under review, but when both the Federal Air Surgeon & the then-acting (recently confirmed) head of the FAA both said it was a non-starter do you really think there is any chance of the proposal going anywhere?

I'd be curious to know what your source is for that statement because we have heard absolutely nothing to that effect. The simple truth is that there are over 16,000 comments that the FAA is required to pick over. Add to that the significance of the request and you have a timeline that is likely to be longer than most petitions we have filed. Petition requests do not "wither and die" as you may be used to seeing with legislation on the Hill. The FAA is by law required to give us a written response, whether their answer is positive or negative. We believe we have made a strong case and the FAA's response to our joint petition will bear that out.

[Mike Switzer]

I (and others) heard that from a senior AME who was on the advisory council & heard the statement made. I'm not going to try to quote him on a public forum since I don't remember the exact words that were used.

[David Pavlich]

I'd like to resurrect this thread for a bit. I read through it again and was wondering how many accidents happened over the last, say, 5 years due to physical ailments? I'm going to do a Bing search, but in the mean time, someone here may already know. I ask only because the accident reports I've read of late all have something to do with pilot error/bad decisions and not a health crisis in flight. My regular physical was fine again, but it sure would be nice if they'd wave the current medical requirement.

David

[rwanttaja]

I'd like to resurrect this thread for a bit. I read through it again and was wondering how many accidents happened over the last, say, 5 years due to physical ailments? I'm going to do a Bing search, but in the mean time, someone here may already know. I ask only because the accident reports I've read of late all have something to do with pilot error/bad decisions and not a health crisis in flight. My regular physical was fine again, but it sure would be nice if they'd wave the current medical requirement.
My 14-year database of homebuilt accidents shows 14 cases where pilot incapacitation was the major cause of the accident. Four of those cases involved alcohol or illegal drugs. Five were associated with cardiac events. The rest are strokes, hypoglycemia, aneurisms, and some where incapacitation was likely but nothing was revealed during the testing.

On the most interesting case, the NTSB report noted that the pilot had a past medical history of "hypercholesterolemia, hypertension, obesity, sleep apnea, gastroesophageal reflux disease, prostrate carcinoma, radiation colitis, a possible cerebrovascular accident, and mild dementia of Alzheimer's type." (LAX04LA110)

Another case involved a pilot who suffered a heart attack in flight, yet managed to pull off a no-damage forced landing. CPR was performed, but he died in the hospital. Gotta admire the man. (CEN12IA050)

About half the cases involved aircraft that would have met the standards for LSA, but most of these occurred prior to the implementation of Sport Pilot. In both the above cases, the pilots had valid Class III medicals.

Ron Wanttaja

[pacerpilot]

The wait on the exemption and possably just the thought of the exemption is killing LSA manufactures. Just wait and see how many will me gone before the ruling does or ever passes

Who can afford one of the "new" LSA's anyway. Their price alone, compared to existing LSA compliant factory planes and experimentals, will be their ruin.

[David Pavlich]

Thanks, Ron! I haven't dug into it yet. As a matter of fact, I just came in from my observatory. I took another image this evening. Anyway, out of the 14 you listed, 10 were from illness since the 4 were more or less self inflicted. However, it's still a good study. I have to wonder about the pilot that had 9 maladies. Maybe with my controlled high BP, I'll actually pass my physical!

David

[rwanttaja]

Thanks, Ron! I haven't dug into it yet. As a matter of fact, I just came in from my observatory. I took another image this evening. Anyway, out of the 14 you listed, 10 were from illness since the 4 were more or less self inflicted. However, it's still a good study. I have to wonder about the pilot that had 9 maladies. Maybe with my controlled high BP, I'll actually pass my physical!
I haven't even tried, since Sport Pilot was implemented. If I pet my toothbrush and rub the wife's cat over my teeth, I figure I'm in no condition to fly.

I have little medical knowledge, so can't really address the medical issues. If you'd like to do your own research, you can access the NTSB's accident database here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx

Go down almost to the bottom, and in the field labeled "Enter Your Word String Below," enter "Incapacitation." I get about 329 reports coming up, running back to 1965. Entering "Cardiac" comes up with 116 hits, but sometimes those are referring to negative results.

If you want to look at the homebuilt cases I mention, enter one of these numbers into the "Accident Number" field:

CEN12IA050
CEN11FA346
SEA04LA024
DEN00LA163
DEN00FA005
NYC04LA178
LAX04LA110
IAD02TA081
FTW99LA007
CHI00LA207
MIA99LA149
ERA12FA107
FTW00LA222
ERA11LA300

Ron Wanttaja

[pointwithinacircle]

Yes a brand new LSA is expensive , but take alook at material cost alone to build one
Tenn- Air is tring to offer a SLSA for 75,000 price range

Or, you could build a Sonex for half that.

Perhaps a huge factor in this debate is the cost of one's ego. My ego nearly destroyed my dream of owning an LSA. It kept demanding more avionics and bigger engines. Finally I realized that I would rather fly something than let my ego price me out of the game. If someday you see an imperfect little homebuilt with only a single radio and a compass on the instrument panel, stop by and say hi.

[zaitcev]

Who can afford one of the "new" LSA's anyway. Their price alone, compared to existing LSA compliant factory planes and experimentals, will be their ruin.
Randy Schlitter promised that RANS S-6ELS is going to roll out the door RTF for $63k in 2013. This is cheaper than many RV-12s. It is exceptional, but then Aerotrek will sell you a stripper A-240 for $80k. Allegro is about there, too. So the price of new S-LSAs is actually well in ballpark of common experimentals. What they are more expensive over is the price of truly cheap experimentals such as KR-2s, low-end Sonexes, and former fat ultralights such as Kolb, GT-500, etc. So, cheap LSAs can easily compete with existing LSA-compliant airplanes, including experimentals. Not everyone is ok with a 1946 antique!

[zaitcev]

Another case involved a pilot who suffered a heart attack in flight, yet managed to pull off a no-damage forced landing. CPR was performed, but he died in the hospital. Gotta admire the man. (CEN12IA050)
There was also a guy who landed a Cessna Mustang after having a stroke some time in 2010 or so. Medics took their sweet time getting to him, and he died on the ground.

[Mike M]

As long as your BP is controlled by meds it is fairly easy, you just need a status letter from your GP, a EKG, & possibly a couple other blood tests depending on what meds you are on.

"...YOU JUST NEED.."

"just"??? what, couple hundred bucks extra on every medical? but in most states you can buy a big ol' bus RV and drive down the road at 70mph missing tractor-trailer tankers full of gasoline or nuclear waste by less than six feet - headon- with no medical and nobody gives a darn. go figger. and yes, i agree, the third class exemption will negatively affect light-sport. but if y'think the new LS are expensive, you haven't been paying attention to the cost of camper busses and boats and heck even tahoe/suburbans or mercedes/bmw/caddies lately. most people buy stuff for the utility or the fun quotient. LS are not utilitarian for most people, and aviation regs plus the airspace plus the scare factor from the media/political/legal complex suck the fun out for many "newbie" people real fast. so smile when you fly young eagles or old buzzards and show how you can USE an airplane!

[Mike Switzer]

I was just responding to the guy that asked what he needed to do. Everything that is required is stuff your GP should be doing anyway if you have high BP.

[jedi]

LSA was created to bring "fat" ultralights into regulated aviation where they belonged. any other "reason" was invented by EAA, AOPA, and anyone else who was hoping to make a few bucks building LSA compliant airplanes.

An equally important reason was to allow the import of the foreign ultralight/light aircraft certified under their standards but not Part 23 compliant.