AOPA Webpage fatal accident study

[David Pavlich]

http://www.aopa.org/asf/acs/acs_intoodeep/?WT.mc_id=121221epilot&WT.mc_sect=tts&cmp=ePlt:Phto

I watched this video this morning and it has been buzzing around in my head. I own a tennis shop and while stringing away, I was trying to think of what this pilot should have done or could have done. First, I'm only thinking about getting my license, so my thoughts may be all wet. At any rate, I wanted to talk this through and figured you veteran pilots would add a lot to my thinking.

First, he should have been getting continual updates on the weather and when it was obvious that his destination was degrading, he should have either turned around or diverted. That didn't happen, so...

He was in a Cirrus SR20 so the chances are excellent that he had either the Garmin Perspective avionics or the Avidyne with something like the Garmin 430W. He supposedly had some IFR training. Here's where I probably go off the rail, but I've viewed enough videos and tutorials that without even sitting in a glass cockpit, I could program an IFR flight plan. And there in lies one of my questions: In this situation, when the pilot saw the weather going downhill and even though he wasn't fully IFR trained, had he known how to program the avionics and using the autopilot, could he do an IFR flight plan "on the fly" (bad pun)? I thought that if he could have done that, he could have been vectored in a certain direction, eased up on his cruise speed and programmed in an IFR flight plan to get him back to DuPage? Again, being a Cirrus, it was probably WAAS capable and could have done a coupled approach and at least got him lined up with the runway.

Or am I all wet? Anyway, this incident and how it played out has really got my though processes churning. Thanks for your indulgence to a wanna' be pilot.

David

[Bill Greenwood]

I hope everyone will go to the AOPA website and take the few minutes to see and hear this video.
It is chilling and is the waste of 4 lives, especially the Father killing his 2 daughters,and the young man.

I don't fly a plane with all that fancy Avidyne or Garmin panel stuff, so I am not an expert on it.
BUT I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THE IDEA THAT THE PROBLEM WAS THE NOT PROGRAMINGTHE FANCY AVIONICS OR THAT THEY WERE THE SOLUTION.

FIRST, AND ABOVE ALL ELSE , THE PILOT HAD PRECIOUS CARGO IN THAT PLANE, HIS DAUGHTERS WHO WERE DEPENDING ON HIM FOR THEIR SAFETY AND THEIR LIVES.
SO DON'T TAKE ANY CHANCES, FLY IN GOOD VMC OR NOT AT ALL. So you must use more caution and be twice as safe as if you are flying solo. Either don't take off or at the first sign of IMC get to an airport or turn back to home base if that is good VMC.

This pilot was low time, only 207 hours, not instrument rated,not in his own plane, and it is obvious by his radio talk that he was really unfamilar with what he was doing, and perhaps even tower airports or the area and other airports.

He was lucky enough to fly right over Dupage and see it in the mist. He should have landed right then. Instead he sort of wandered around seemingly with no plan and no direction.
The controller several times gave him weather at Palwaukee Executive that was decent VMC, I think 1500 and 3 or 5 miles, but he would not take the hint and go there or perhaps he was trying to put the airport identifier in his GPS to find how to go there. I wonder if he had a sectional, if he had any course lines and headings and any alternates identified on the secitonal.
I'd bet not, that he had all the fancy gadgets on the panel and ended up lost.
He seems to have kept control of the plane, even in the clouds at times for quite some time before losing it. Probably he was using the autopilot for the cruise part of the flight.
He never declared an emergency or asked for any real help other than a few weather updates.

A horrible shame.

One thing I am not sure of is how high the obstacles are in the Chicago area, if he could have gotten below the clouds in good vmc at 900 or so and still cleared the surroundings.

[David Pavlich]

My way of thinking is they should have not departed in the first place with the marginal weather. My question about the progamming in flight was more an exercise in "what could he have done to arrive safely" and not to use electronics to justify making a poor decision to depart in the first place. It is a very somber video that surely makes one think about what drives a person to make a certain decision knowing what the consequences could be. The narrative is very good at pointing out that very thing; concerns about periphreal things and not the most important topic...safety.

David

[Bill]

The real problem is that there are too many competitors for a Darwin Award in the aviation community and they don't care about the effects on others.

[Pearson]

I agree with David, the flight should have never left the ground. My heart goes out to the families of the deceased, but the pilot should not have taken the risks he did that day. Those who do not have an instrument rating do not realize what is involved in earning that rating. I flew for 10 years as a private pilot with an instrument rating. Then I started doing it for a living. Something that has really stood out in my memory was when the examiner giving me my ATP checkride asked me if I knew what the requirements were for the license. I started telling him about the needed hours and the cross country time, etc. Then he asked me if I knew what FAR 61.153 (C) was. I had no idea. He enlightened me that to obtain an ATP you have to "Be of good moral character". That really struck a chord with me. I told him what a great guy I am and asked how this applied to passing my ATP checkride. The example he gave was something about not going below minimums on an approach. I think he gave a second example, but it has been too many years ago. This guy really made an impression on me, and it motivated me to be the absolutely best pilot I could possibly be. He instilled in me that when a non pilot get into a plane with you, they are trusting you with their lives. Maybe if they had a similar FAR requirement for a private pilot license, it could make an impression on a few people to be more responsible. On another note, the airlines and even corporate flight departments are preaching "risk management" to pilots these days. Maybe a few questions on the private pilot written exam regarding risk management could instill in future pilots the importance of addressing risk.

[Sonex1517]

I live in Chicagoland and am a pilot, and this one has stuck in my mind since we heard the news...

I remember the weather that day vividly. There is no way anyone who was not instrument rated and current could have expected to make it to their destination VFR that day. The clouds were low and what VFR conditions did exist were short lived and dicey at best.

When we heard the accident report on the radio here, shortly after it happened, I was stunned. I turned to my wife and said "VFR into IMC."

The pilot was offered help - we listened to the conversation online shortly after the accident. That conversation nearly made me physically ill....ATC did all they could to help him. He refused their advice. The result killed three innocent people. Three young people who had no idea of what the pilot had gotten them into.

This one should be a landmark accident for any pilot of any experience. It should never have happened.

[1600vw]

Myself I believe this goes deeper then flying into IMC. I told a friend this when he said he wants to get a two seater and fly his family. Understand this man is still in training for his LSA certificate, has maybe 40 hrs flying at the most.

This is just me but I would not fly anyone besides myself in anything with the amount of hours I have logged, over 200. I told him fly a single seater for about 500 hrs before thinking about getting a dual seat or two seater.

He mumbled some stuff about how good he is and walked away. As he was walking away I shouted to him to tell every person he flies how many hrs he has and let them decide if they want to fly with him.

Last time I saw this man he would not speak to me.

H.A.S.

[1600vw]

One more thing on this subject......That CFI whom helped him plan this trip......Shame on you.....Your hands are not clean, you where a part of this....This CFI should have stopped this flight before they even fueled the bird.

This {CFI} man or woman knew this man was not rated for IMC and also this person {CFI} knew enough to know the conditions on a day like that can change in min's from VFR to IFR....Poor decision making on the CFI's part since this man {Pilot} asked for help in planing this trip.

H.A.S.

[rosiejerryrosie]

As of this time, no one has really answered David's question as to whether or not it would have been possible to file an IFR flight plan and continue under those conditions. Yes, Dave, it is possible to file a 'pop up' IFR flight plan and continue the flight, if the pilot was qualified to do so. I do agree with everyone who has posted thus far, this guy was not qualified and should have never pulled the plane out of the hangar....

[David Pavlich]

Thanks to all of you! This video has been going in and out of my thoughts as time passes. I guess the fact that even with 250 or so hours, one would think that his judgement should have been on the side of caution and was not is what perplexes me. Ego? Not wanting to disappoint? We'll never know.

Jerry...thanks for answering my question. This has been very eye opening.

David

[Joe LaMantia]

I haven't watched the video, but based on the comments above, it's clear this guy either didn't have a set of "Personal Minimums" or just ignored them. The day I got my license (1993) my instructor reminded me of the minimums he set for me during my cross-country training. We talked about the "License to Learn" and I set 3500 feet and 5 miles as my minimum for departing my home base pattern. I plan my cross-countries keeping those minimums and create a "trip book" with all the airport facility guides that cover my route. As I fly along I will dial up the AWOS frequencies to stay alert to the weather ahead. VFR pilots should be looking at the big picture regarding weather for several days before any planned cross-country. You just can't have too much information regarding fronts, cloud cover, winds aloft, temperatures, and pressures. I would not fly a long cross-county at or near my minimums, I look for improving conditions along my route or just wait until the weather move out. I am familiar with the area west of O'Hare, there is a VFR "corridor" through the west side of that class B airspace that passes about a half mile east of DuPage. You can get an ATC clearance through there "at or below 2500" and will be instructed to contact DuPage tower before entering that airspace (Class D). I know of no low level obstructions in the area, but it is a well "developed" urban landscape, and if your going to fly through any Class B airspace you should have a Terminal Chart along and hopefully have reviewed that chart before departing. There are a lot of airports along that route which takes you north through the Class B to Wisconsin. It is really sad to hear of yet another avoidable accident killing a family.

Joe
:(

[steveinindy]

One more thing on this subject......That CFI whom helped him plan this trip......Shame on you.....Your hands are not clean, you where a part of this....This CFI should have stopped this flight before they even fueled the bird.

This {CFI} man or woman knew this man was not rated for IMC and also this person {CFI} knew enough to know the conditions on a day like that can change in min's from VFR to IFR....Poor decision making on the CFI's part since this man {Pilot} asked for help in planing this trip.


Agreed. I know the CFI in question (not well, but I know who it is as we have mutual friends) and have given them a similar earful via a mutual friend. The message consisted of a reminder that I hope the figurative blood never washes off the hands of those who did not have the courage to speak up and try to stop this flight. Hopefully the CFI will use this case as what happens when you think technology is a substitute for being a competent pilot. Cockpit glass is no more of an excuse for shoddy flying than flaps, shock absorber equipped landing gear or seatbelts are.


I told him fly a single seater for about 500 hrs before thinking about getting a dual seat or two seater.

Agreed. However, I believe it should be two fold.

One should have quite a few hours (at least a couple of hundred) in something without an autopilot before stepping into something that does have one. Likewise, one should have a hundred or so hours in type before hauling passengers unless you have a specific full type rating for that aircraft and are flying dual pilot.

Even as a person who is designing an aircraft with enough "glass" to make a Cirrus look like a Taylorcraft, I still realize that what makes one a pilot is the skills you keep sharp for the times when the chips are down and not what you are flying. I can't stand hands on cruise flight (I find it about as appealing as the idea of stabbing myself in the eye with a rusty shrimp fork) but I still do it because I need to keep those skills up since my passengers rely upon me. I don't like aerobatics and prefer to keep the airplane dirty side down but I still go and seek out unusual attitude training because the lives of those who put their faith in me may rely upon it.


I guess the fact that even with 250 or so hours, one would think that his judgement should have been on the side of caution and was not is what perplexes me. Ego? Not wanting to disappoint? We'll never know.

Part of it goes to the market that Cirrus selects to focus on even though it makes sense from an economic standpoint. You look at doctors, lawyers, engineers and higher end business types. You don't often get there by being overly cautious or excessively risk averse. Most of them are severe Type-A personalities and are loathe to admit when they are in over their heads. Combine that with a marketing scheme that consists largely of "This plane can do anything an airliner can do so you will get where you're going and fast" and the end result is somewhat predictable.

[Bill Greenwood]

As for the CFI, I don't know how much blame, if any, he has. At 207 hours the pilot has the legal qualfications to plan and make his flights, and may not take well to any negative advice. We don't know how much planning help the CFI was asked for, and in any case the weather got worse in route. I doubt if the CFI told him to continue flight into IMC conditions if they were encountered.

There are two other psychological matters, at least. The fllgiht school would be motivated to rent the plane, but they would hope to have it back at the end of his time in order to rent it to the next guy. Perhaps that is why he said that he didn't want to get stuck somewhere, he was worried about getting the plane back in time. Of course the school would much prefer him to land safely somewhere, even if they had to send another CFI down to retrieve the plane, or wait till the next day for him to fly back.
He was really reluctant to take the suggestions of the controller to fly to PWK where it was decent vmc weather. I suspect that he feared entering the Class B (TCA) airspace that is over that area, and that is why he turned NW and into worsening weather.. The difficulty went on for some time, it was not an instantaneous emergency, and it could and should have been handled.
ATC even offered flight following. If he accepted it they could have given him a heading and a clearance with a transponder code and he could have flown to VMC conditions at Palwaukee, and probably landed safely. Instead he mumbled some babble that made no sense and wandered off into worse weather.

I think there may be some truth to what Steve says about Cirrus marketing. They have done a good job of getting people interested in these planes that may have not come up through the normal learning route. But the downside it that a mindset may be there which overlooks or downplays that is light gen aviation, there are many times when you just can't go or at least should not persist in a flight.Type A may work well for fullbacks and linebackers,but not so well for pilots. There are, of course many doctors and lawyers that are fine pilots, my orthopedic doctor is a partner in the FBO here and is a former Navy doctor as well.

The shame is that while this short flight would have been a fun way to get the daughter to school, it was not in any way vital. They could have driven the 200 mile trip in under 4 hours.

[steveinindy]

As for the CFI, I don't know how much blame, if any, he has. At 207 hours the pilot has the legal qualfications to plan and make his flights, and may not take well to any negative advice. We don't know how much planning help the CFI was asked for, and in any case the weather got worse in route. I doubt if the CFI told him to continue flight into IMC conditions if they were encountered.

Legally, no blame there but at least the CFI should have verbally dressed him down for thinking about this flight especially with passengers on board. It would be one thing if he were instrument rated and considering a marginal VFR flight. It's entirely another when you have a VFR only rookie pilot. To me it is no different than telling someone that they can take off with an active oil leak if they agree to land if the engine seizes. You might not stop him but you have a moral obligation to watch out for fellow pilots and if nothing else, at least you can have some defense for your own conscience by having tried to do the right thing.


They could have driven the 200 mile trip in under 4 hours.

I know for a fact that in the weather the day of the crash, the drive from Indianapolis (about an hour south of the airport the flight departed from) to Woodstock, Illinois took three hours and thirty five minutes. I happened to have taken that drive that day for work and I pulled my records because I thought it might be helpful.

[David Pavlich]

Another thought...again, not to use electronics as an excuse for poor judgement but in this case, possibly prevent the accident. The Cirrus Perspective has a button on the center stack that is made for spatial disorientation. Press the button and the plane returns to straight and level flight. I don't know...I guess I'm trying to work my way through this and figure out how he could have gotten out of it. If anything, he should have been up with his instructor working on his IFR rating, not flying the mission that he did.

David

[1600vw]

This is what amazes me. Someone will get a few hrs under thier belt then want to fly loved ones around. Myself I will not fly any passengers until I get close to 1000 hrs.

Becuase of this and my age I will never fly anything but a single seater. If I do go up in a two seater or bigger, I am a passenger along for a ride. If I get a little stick time thats great, if not oh well.....This is just me....

I have a Motto I wish more would take on..It is.........I refuse to be a Statistic......

H.A.S.

[martymayes]

..I guess I'm trying to work my way through this and figure out how he could have gotten out of it.

David, the problem with that kind of thinking is there are no limits. If the pilot could extricate himself from inadvertent IFR, that would become routine thus allowing him to advance to the next level of hazards. What the pilot did was expand his envelope in a very undisciplined manner until he reached his level of incompetence, then crash. Frankly, I'm surprised he got this far.

[David Pavlich]

David, the problem with that kind of thinking is there are no limits. If the pilot could extricate himself from inadvertent IFR, that would become routine thus allowing him to advance to the next level of hazards. What the pilot did was expand his envelope in a very undisciplined manner until he reached his level of incompetence, then crash. Frankly, I'm surprised he got this far.

I completely understand your reply. For certain, he should have left the plane in the hangar. Unfortunately, he wasn't thinking, at least not clearly. This has been a great experience for me. I have yet to take my first lesson, yet it's like I've received terrific instruction without being in a classroom or a cockpit.

David

[steveinindy]

Press the button and the plane returns to straight and level flight.

I believe that system, like most, has limits so far as recovery from excessive pitch, roll and yaw is concerned and it is very easy to get disoriented and wind up beyond those limits before you realize you're actually in trouble. You also have to account for the panic that often accompanies an upset. The other issue is that a lot of pilots are hesitant to cede control in an emergency (or even under normal conditions) to "George". He probably thought he could recover right up until the moment he popped out of the bottom of the cloud a couple of seconds prior to leaving the sort of mark on history that those of us in the aviation safety community and a landscaper can fully appreciate.


If anything, he should have been up with his instructor working on his IFR rating, not flying the mission that he did.


Agreed. However, we need to get away from the "mission" mindset in GA. I think too many of us take our flying so seriously that we shut out other options (diverting or not launching at all) in order to complete the "mission". Nothing we do in GA is so important that we HAVE to do it which makes us different from the military-style mission mindset that traps so many of our colleagues.


David, the problem with that kind of thinking is there are no limits. If the pilot could extricate himself from inadvertent IFR, that would become routine thus allowing him to advance to the next level of hazards. What the pilot did was expand his envelope in a very undisciplined manner until he reached his level of incompetence, then crash. Frankly, I'm surprised he got this far.

Well said Marty.

[martymayes]

David, I don't want to bore you but I had an experience eerily similar to this one.

When I was a young CFI, I taught an 'older' gentleman (upper 40's, lol) how to fly. He had been passed from CFI to CFI, all out just to empty his wallet. None of them had any intention of letting him progress to first solo, so at 40 hrs of dual one CFI decided he needed a dual X-C.

Then I started flying with him. We started at the beggining. To say he was a challenging student is an understatement. But I got him to solo. Then another. Then I soled him on the requisite x-c flights. Then I prepped him and got him passed his checkride. After that we sat down and had a long talk. I "advised" him to avoid marginal wx conditions. Same with night. Fly only on good VFR days. Then I told him to stay in simple airplanes, those with only two seats. This was all based on my experience flying with him. I knew his weaknesses.

About 6 months later, he purchased a Cessna 172L. He wanted me to check him out in it. So I did. Older but well cared for plane. We parted ways and I gave him the same advice, good VFR only, >5000/5, no night, don't fill up the seats with passengers.

Well, one fall Sat. in 1983, he loaded up his dad, adult son and daughter and flew from Louisiana to College Station, TX for an A & M football game. (What is it with planes and football games?) They came back home around 7pm, very dark night due to low ceilings (BKN 007), light rain, reduced visibility. He ended up about 50 miles N. of where he should have been, recognized he was lost, circled, called for help, received assistance in the form of radar vectors but became spatially disoriented and crashed in a steep nose down attitude. There were no survivors.

The IIC told me that while his poor choices got him into a bad situation, he was doing everything right to get out of it -apparently he had a good CFI (his words). Unfortunately, he couldn't control the plane by reference to instruments long enough to end the flight successfully. I knew that would happen if he ever inadvertenly entered IFR for more than a couple minutes. Maybe I'm not such a good CFI after all.

So I have spent a lot of time over the years thinking what could I have done differently. Any ideas? Could this have been prevented?

[steveinindy]

So I have spent a lot of time over the years thinking what could I have done differently. Any ideas? Could this have been prevented?

My last CFI up in Michigan was training me to be more or less instrument qualified before I was ready to solo. Then again, he took me along on business trips (he was a lawyer) so I just had to buy lunch in exchange for the lessons and the time building. I think more time teaching "emergency" situation resolution skills including how to fly either an ILS with vectors or a ground controlled approach should be included in the basic private pilot curriculum. Upset recovery/unusual attitude training should also be included even if it means farming the student out to an aerobatic instructor. That would be my approach if I were designing a training program.

[EDGEFLY]

I feel that steveindys' Type A analysis covers this whole situation. The AOPA presentation is much more effective than the normal NTBS paper wrap-up and most importantly to the pilots not into or just starting their training, let this be a part of your development as a competent pilot not the reason to not become a pilot.

Edgefly

[David Pavlich]

David, I don't want to bore you but I had an experience eerily similar to this one.

When I was a young CFI, I taught an 'older' gentleman (upper 40's, lol) how to fly. He had been passed from CFI to CFI, all out just to empty his wallet. None of them had any intention of letting him progress to first solo, so at 40 hrs of dual one CFI decided he needed a dual X-C.

Then I started flying with him. We started at the beggining. To say he was a challenging student is an understatement. But I got him to solo. Then another. Then I soled him on the requisite x-c flights. Then I prepped him and got him passed his checkride. After that we sat down and had a long talk. I "advised" him to avoid marginal wx conditions. Same with night. Fly only on good VFR days. Then I told him to stay in simple airplanes, those with only two seats. This was all based on my experience flying with him. I knew his weaknesses.

About 6 months later, he purchased a Cessna 172L. He wanted me to check him out in it. So I did. Older but well cared for plane. We parted ways and I gave him the same advice, good VFR only, >5000/5, no night, don't fill up the seats with passengers.

Well, one fall Sat. in 1983, he loaded up his dad, adult son and daughter and flew from Louisiana to College Station, TX for an A & M football game. (What is it with planes and football games?) They came back home around 7pm, very dark night due to low ceilings (BKN 007), light rain, reduced visibility. He ended up about 50 miles N. of where he should have been, recognized he was lost, circled, called for help, received assistance in the form of radar vectors but became spatially disoriented and crashed in a steep nose down attitude. There were no survivors.

The IIC told me that while his poor choices got him into a bad situation, he was doing everything right to get out of it -apparently he had a good CFI (his words). Unfortunately, he couldn't control the plane by reference to instruments long enough to end the flight successfully. I knew that would happen if he ever inadvertenly entered IFR for more than a couple minutes. Maybe I'm not such a good CFI after all.

So I have spent a lot of time over the years thinking what could I have done differently. Any ideas? Could this have been prevented?

Boring? More like heart wrenching! Being the one here that isn't a pilot, I would say, yes, it could have been prevented, but only by a very different decision than flying home after the game. It would have likely been avoided had they stayed in College Station that night and flew home the next day under better conditions. Symptoms: Night flight with degrading weather. What could be worst? Well, icing, but that's not what happened. What he did was contrary to your best advice.

Reading this, I hope that you're still not beating yourself up over it. I can imagine that any CFl with an ounce of compassion would feel rotten if a student parishes in an accident. It's not my place to say since I wasn't there, but you did your job, seems to me. Beyond sitting in the right seat everytime he went up, what could you do? Humans have free will and for better or worst, we exercise that every time we get out of bed. Choices have consequences no matter how much our culture tries to convey a message of victimhood. Responsibility lies with the person that has made the decision. The pity is that sometimes that decision affects others negatively. This whole thread is a testament to you pilots that have made the right decisions when you leave the hangar. It's obvious that you have had good instruction and/or you have good ole' common sense. I hope that when my day finally arrives, I have the temperment that you all have shown.

David

[Flyfalcons]

This is what amazes me. Someone will get a few hrs under thier belt then want to fly loved ones around. Myself I will not fly any passengers until I get close to 1000 hrs.

Becuase of this and my age I will never fly anything but a single seater. If I do go up in a two seater or bigger, I am a passenger along for a ride. If I get a little stick time thats great, if not oh well.....This is just me....

I have a Motto I wish more would take on..It is.........I refuse to be a Statistic......

H.A.S.

If you need 1000 hours to become a safe pilot then that is scary.

[1600vw]

If you need 1000 hours to become a safe pilot then that is scary.

I fly safe and will not subject anyone to a low time pilot in the left seat as PIC. Just the way I do things. Say what you want, it does not bother me one bit....If this scares you, I feel for you......

What scares me is a low time pilot acting as PIC.....Look at the statistics.....They speak volumes.......Its pilots that think this way that kill people.....

You want to fly passengers there should be a min amount of logged hrs flying before you can take anyone up....

I hope Steve from Indy rings in on this, he see's what a low time pilot will get you......KILLED is what it will get you.

H.A.S.


You must be better then me...Thats ok for I am sure you are the best.

[martymayes]

If you need 1000 hours to become a safe pilot then that is scary.

I agree, it's not quantity that makes you a better pilot, it's quality.

A 100 hr, well trained and disciplined pilot can be much safer than a 1000 hr pilot.

[martymayes]

My last CFI up in Michigan was training me to be more or less instrument qualified before I was ready to solo. Then again, he took me along on business trips (he was a lawyer) so I just had to buy lunch in exchange for the lessons and the time building. I think more time teaching "emergency" situation resolution skills including how to fly either an ILS with vectors or a ground controlled approach should be included in the basic private pilot curriculum. Upset recovery/unusual attitude training should also be included even if it means farming the student out to an aerobatic instructor. That would be my approach if I were designing a training program.


Adding 40-50 hrs of pre-solo training simply isn't practical. Learning how to tune and fly and ILS is great, however, unless a pilot practices flying by reference to instruments on a regular basis, he will likely lose control long before he ever gets anywhere near the ILS.

The same is true for upset training, if it's not rehearsed on a regular basis, those skills atrophy quite rapidly. Can't do it one time and be good to go for the remainder of your flying career.

[Joe LaMantia]

Marty and Steve,

I totally agree, and Steve has some great suggestions, but in the present environment it is doubtful that any of those changes would be considered, let alone adopted. Given the state of "politics" and the state of general aviation economics adding time and requirements to training for the PPL is not realistic. I am a simple low time pilot with most of my hours doing low and slow within 100 miles of my home base. I've accummulated about 430 hrs in 20 years of flying. I am retired and my "schedule" doesn't set me up for "get homeitist". I think that newly minted low-time VFR pilots need to keep safe through the recognition that flying demands planning, practice, and recurrent training if we are to remain safe. It is up to each pilot to evaluate his abilities and stay within his skill limits. This guy had 200 plus hours and "some" instrument training, but was not IFR rated. What set him up for this accident is just another "classic" case of a VFR pilot continuing flight into IMC. In my opinion, a 60 Hr pilot knows that IMC is a no go and the number 2 issue to be avoided is running out of fuel, add in low level gymnastics and overloaded take-offs and you've got the bulk of what gets low-timers killed. This isn't rocket science, it's all about keeping away from this stuff through personal discipline. It is unfortunate that this happened, but it isn't the first time and won't be the last. In the end, its still up to the individual pilot to make decisions in flight and the only hour in your log book that counts is the next hour your going to fly.

Joe
:cool:

[martymayes]

I think that newly minted low-time VFR pilots need to keep safe through the recognition that flying demands planning, practice, and recurrent training if we are to remain safe. It is up to each pilot to evaluate his abilities and stay within his skill limits.

That is correct, but we need to teach pilots how to do this.

[David Pavlich]

It all boils down to common sense. The latest issue of Flying magazine has a couple of good articles about weather and electronics and how electronics can bite you as well as help. In the end, error on the side of caution and the odds go way up that you'll have an uneventful take off and landing.

David

[Mayhemxpc]

ILS, aerobatics, flight time, etc., these are all nice things that you can measure. The important thing -- as others have alluded to -- is judgement. Keeping the shiny side up and the greasy side down in good weather isn't hard. Hopefully, none of us would have solo'd a student if they could not do that PREDICTABLY well. The key is whether that pilot understands the limitations of his or her skill (regardless of hours logged) recognizes the hazards that will exceed those limits and assesses the likelihood of encountering those hazards, and then makes a prudent decision about managing those risks. How do you assess judgement? How do you (as a CFI) help people to develop the risk management skills upon which sound judgement is based?

If only I had taught him how to fly an ILS (although I would argue better to know how to call for help and fly vectors to a PAR)
If only he had more flight time (WWII pilots flew in combat and horrible weather with far fewer hours)
If only he had actual experience in recovering from from an accidental Lumshovak (on instruments)

We need to stress using superior judgement to avoid having to demonstrate superior skill. This is where I entirely agree with the FAA's scenario based training program. (Even though I have some serious concerns with other aspects of it.)

[Bob Dingley]

I certainly agree with everyone that a well equipped airplane is no match for poor judgement. No point in my piling on too. Low experience & poor judgement were the overwhelming factors on this one. The next one may well follow the familiar single point failure scenario. I'm recalling the Carnahan crash about a dozen years ago. FAA sent ADs to me on the Parker Hannifin vacuum pump as long as I owned my Beech.

Just look at the number of folks flying IFR in planes with only one attitude indicator, one alternator, no autopilot, no co-pilot and arriving safely. No headlines on those guys. I confess to be one of those guys. I once flew a Cherokee 10 hours solo and logged 7 hours IFR. But there was no time on that flight that I could not get back on the ground safely if anything or everything failed. Proper prior planning prevents poor performances. My wife has a talent for focusing me when aboard. No airman certificates, but I value her judgement. She has a special way of saying "Just what do you think you're doing?" at those critical times.

Some neat backups are showing up on the market. I'm impressed with the Dynon D-1 Pocket Panel at a price everyone can afford. There are others. With one of these, some planning, some training and perhaps a helpful co-pilot, the odds swing in your favor.

Bob

[pacerpilot]

Really 1600? 500 hours? At an average of 50 hours year I guess we could all count on taking our grandkids flying huh? You also suggest a single seater. I guess you're not a big fan of dual instruction. Also, there aren't to many production single seaters available so you're promoting low hour pilots hop into potentially dicey experimentals without the benefit of training. NOT GOOD ADVICE! I gotta be honest, with 200 hours if you're not confident yet, please don't fly over my house! I don't blame him for not speaking to you-sorry.

[steveinindy]

I hope Steve from Indy rings in on this, he see's what a low time pilot will get you......KILLED is what it will get you.


Even as someone who deals with the oft disturbing aftermath of crashes and the concept of risk mitigation for a living, I think you are being a little overly cautious which can be just as potentially hazardous as being flippant about safety. It can lead you to avoiding opportunities that could make you a better pilot. Flying for 500 hours alone in an airplane does not prepare you for hauling three passengers and their bags around. In many aircraft, the handling characteristics can change with the associated shifts in CG. You train like you fly and fly like you train to paraphrase a military expression. If you want to build applicable experience without passengers on board, you can always use sandbags or something similar to approximate the masses of your passengers.

Actually, what is interesting is that while low hours often correlate with crashes we often treat it as thought is causative. The problem is one where people fail to realize that there is a distinct difference between correlation and causation. A low hour pilot is at risk because of the way the numbers are broken out. If you are lumping those undergoing instruction in with those who are newly certificated, you make it seem that pilots who just completed their training is as dangerous as someone with 10 hours. While overall experience is important, what really probably matters most in terms of time is experience in the type of aircraft you are talking about (Cirrus for a Cirrus, RV for an RV, Cessna 172 for a Cessna 172) and currency of that experience. If you are a 10,000 hour pilot who only flies 50 or a hundred hours per year in a wide variety of aircraft, there is a distinct risk you are more of a hazard to yourself and your passengers than a person who has flown a single type of aircraft for 200 hours per year ab initio. Thinking that a few hours per year and a BFR combined with thousands of hours of total time makes you a safe pilot is a great way to wind up as a set of data points in my research into crash survivability. Proficiency means more than total time.

A low hour competent, conscientious and well trained pilot is inherently no riskier than someone with a thousand hours who is treating their experience (in terms of total time) as a measure of their proficiency. One of the best studies on the subject was carried out by Dave O'Hare at the University of Otago in New Zealand. There is actually an INCREASE in crash rates at around 1,000 hours because people are traditionally upgrading into faster, more complex aircraft around that time. It may also be that people treat, perhaps subconsciously, the milestones of 500 or 1,000 hours as a watershed moment that erodes fear or discomfort leading to one taking more risks by tolerating lower minima, more complex terrain, etc.

To ask a related question: Would there be any interest in me writing a full article on the subject of "experience" for the Experimenter? I am always looking for ideas for articles to follow my current and upcoming series on homebuilt safety.

[1600vw]

Steve write that article sounds like a good one.

This thread started over a man whom with low hrs takes his kids and a friend up on a long X-Country and..well we all know the outcome.

Then others jump on here and state how they took such and such up for a ride right after their checkride....this is on another thread about the same subject.

What people are loosing here is this...I am Not talking about going around the patch or flying 30 miles with a passenger. This is about a few hundred mile trip as a low time pilot.

Everyone else do what you will. If I had a few hundred mile trip to make and the pilot was new I would drive, just me. You folks do what you want....

Many are loosing the point of a few mile trip with a passenger and a few hundred mile trip with a passenger. Sure if you just receive your ticket and asked me to go for a ride around the patch or so I would jump at the idea, but have that same new pilot ask me to go on a state to state ride...I will drive, now if another pilot is along I might go but me and a new pilot, I will walk first.

Just me..You do what you want.

I had a woman whom found out I fly want to go for a ride...the very first thing she asked was...How many hrs I have flown....I told her do not worry about it..I fly no one but me.
She said..My dad was a pilot, he told me do not climb in any airplane if the pilot has under 300 hrs. So I am not the only one whom thinks this way.

I just get so upset or emotional when I read articles like the one that draws us all here. This low time pilot with his kids on board and someone elses child..we know the rest..So say what you want, its in black and white and the NTSB website is full of pilots just like this man.

One man on another thread stated this scares him......Good it should scare you..It scares the Bajeezes out of me.
Merry Christmas Everyone
H.A.S.

[1600vw]

Remember everyone we are talking long x-country trips not flying around the patch or local trips.

We have restrictions on new drivers and for a very good reason, for saftey. Is it asking to much for a new pilot to get sometime flying those long X-county trips before they take loved ones on those trips. I guess it's one of those.....It will not happen to me things.....Or....... I am to good for that to happen to me....I bet that man thought the same thing...

H.A.S.

[1600vw]

The other thing that bothers me is a High time pilot or someone whom should have known better helped him do this. If that man would have had personal limits on how far a new pilot should fly he would have never helped.

Am I wrong here? I have been wrong before.

H.A.S.

[martymayes]

The other thing that bothers me is a High time pilot or someone whom should have known better helped him do this. If that man would have had personal limits on how far a new pilot should fly he would have never helped.

Am I wrong here? I have been wrong before.


Well, most of your argument is irrational and being directed by emotion, not facts. That's pretty much how I would classify the accident pilot's decision making.

1600VW, If you're interested in increasing your knowledge, gaining REAL experience with how to operate an airplane and be safe without making a "no-go" decision at every turn, you should seek out additional training. I'll be more than happy to work with you at 1/2 my normal instructional fee.

[danielfindling]

So I have spent a lot of time over the years thinking what could I have done differently. Any ideas? Could this have been prevented?

To quote Ernest Gann: "Fate is the Hunter". Maybe it could not have been prevented.

Notwithstanding, this AOPA safety video reminded me of myself (a 45 year old private pilot with 250 hrs) and reminds me of the need for good ADM. Something I feel I do a good job at. However, I also know I am human and make mistakes in judgment. We all do.

We have checklists for every airplane we fly, maybe the last line of every checklist should include the reminder to: "Use good judgment" and include your personal minimums. It's should be read out loud before every flight.

Adding humility to the aviation culture - I propose, will improve safety.

I am confident that the horrific experience you described improved your ability to teach safety to pilots - unfortunately, fate may, notwithstanding intervene without explanation.

Daniel

[Mayhemxpc]

One poster has, both here and in another thread, mentioned that new drivers have to drive a certain number of hours before they can carry passengers. (This is not true for every State.) Funny thing about this. I am going through this with my 15 1/2 year old son. When I saw the rules I thought, "Great, they are applying similar rules to that which we already have for pilots!" Again, we already have those rules. Unlike in cars, student pilots fly ALONE. They have a minimum amount of time for flying alone (20 hours) before a CFI can determine that they are ready to pass their check ride, and fly with passengers. Most student pilots get somewhat more than the minimum solo time before being approved for their check ride. I understand that the person who posted the new driver analogy believes that this 20 hours, followed by a review by an experienced and competent instructor pilot, followed by an oral and practical examination by someone with much more experienced and with more opportunities for evaluating judgement than any DMV examiner, is inadequate. That is his opinion and he has a right to hold it. But, his analogy between new drivers and new pilots is inapt.

Now, should a new pilot carry a non-rated passenger on a long cross-country? Probably not. I don't think 100 miles (about an hour flight time), however, is very long. The new pilot did better than that in his training -- and was evaluated -- and passed that evaluation. Did I carry non-rated passengers (my wife) on a 300 mile cross country flight (landing in the Chicago TRACON area) before I had 200 hours? Yes. Was I safe? Arguably yes. Should a new pilot find a pilot buddy to make such long trips with first (which I also did). Good idea. This is all about judgment, however -- not flight hours.

One more point: At just over 200 hours I had my commercial certificate. That is when the FAA says that, not only can I get paid for flying, I can get paid for flying passengers. As PIC.

[WLIU]

I will speak up as someone who has spent a thousand or so hours driving under-equipped light aircraft around in crappy weather amongst tall rocks. The first rule I learned was to expect that the weather forecast was just a guess and the winds and ceiling will, not may, be different. And expect Mother Nature to throw you a curve ball on a regular basis. Where you really need to know the weather, there will not be a reporting station. So always launch with a backup plan and a hard limit of what weather will trigger going to plan B.

The second rule I learned was that when it was time to go to plan B, do it. You never every "gotta" get home today. The folks at a thousand small airports offer great sympathy and hospitality to wayward aviators. You meet wonderful people at unscheduled stops.

Then I learned that I do not have to fly a straight line to get to my destination. Some days, running 100 miles in a different direction from my desired course line will allow me to get where I want to go rather than flying up to some bad weather and sitting stuck while a big glob of low ceilings takes its time moving overhead.

Finally, the best decision making is done before you crank up and start taxiing. Know before your wheels leave the ground that it is OK to launch to look at the weather but decide before the throttle goes forward how just far you will go to look at the weather. Plan where you will go as soon as the weather gets worse than a limit you have set for yourself.

If you can make yourself think about the enroute weather, make a plan, make a backup plan, and then make yourself follow the plans, you can work your way home through surprisingly challenging weather. But only if you understand that its a step-by-step process and that process does not guarantee that at the end of that day you will be at your destination airport. If you are flying an VFR airplane and absolutely have to get somewhere, drive or buy an airline ticket.

In my small airplane travels, I have managed to cajole Mother Nature into letting me fly small airplanes with no equipment from Boston to San Francisco and from Montreal to Galveston. But Mother Nature is ruthless, gives the test before the lesson about it, and should always be viewed with a little paranoia as you study at her College of Aeronautical Knowledge.

The only way to build experience is to fly. Don't fly the same one flight 1000 times. Fly 1000 different flights and build your knowledge one bit at a time.

Merry Christmas,

Wes
N78PS

[steveinindy]

What people are loosing here is this...I am Not talking about going around the patch or flying 30 miles with a passenger. This is about a few hundred mile trip as a low time pilot.

While there are more points to check out the weather for in the longer flight, but if you can't do the work for it, you have zero business leaving the ground as a solo student. As I said, the issue is not one of knowledge or skill being dependably predictable by total time. Anyone turned loose for their checkride- hell, for their solo training- should know how to plan any flight within the range of their aircraft.


Just me..You do what you want.

That's your prerogative. However, as someone else pointed out, you are letting fear dictate your activities where reason should reign.


I had a woman whom found out I fly want to go for a ride...the very first thing she asked was...How many hrs I have flown....I told her do not worry about it..I fly no one but me.
She said..My dad was a pilot, he told me do not climb in any airplane if the pilot has under 300 hrs. So I am not the only one whom thinks this way.

I had a racist grandmother who swore she would never ride in a car or bus driven by a black man because (in her misguided opinion) they were not smart enough or trustworthy enough to handle a vehicle in which she was riding. The point of this story is that "traditional" thinking is not necessarily correct. There are plenty of other examples of this in aviation alone.


I just get so upset or emotional when I read articles like the one that draws us all here.

I hate to say this but if you get that emotionally perturbed by a simple discussion of a crash, I must question how you would respond as a pilot to an emergency. That is not something that more time is going to cure. It's a matter of the mental makeup of a person for the most part.


This low time pilot with his kids on board and someone elses child..we know the rest..

Given the mistakes he made, it probably would not have mattered if he had 200 hours or 20,000 hours. Stupidity seldom gets better with time. In fact, in some ways, it gets worse as people become more confident in making the same asinine mistakes with an ever increasing level of confidence.


So say what you want, its in black and white and the NTSB website is full of pilots just like this man.

It is also full of 10,000 hour pilots who made the same poor choices. As I said, you need to check the fear and recognize that anecdotal evidence is not conclusive.

[Hiperbiper]

Maybe BFR's that consist less of honing the skillz your PPL "thinks" he has and a bit more of a reality check would work...
Rent a plane that Is IFR capable and pull him into the clouds. No foggles. REAL. Climbs. Decents. A 180* get the hell out turn. As he loses control for the third time admonish him that he and any friends or loved ones he had been flying with would be dead due to HIS ego.
Some people need to have the holy crap scared out of 'em to convince them they're not as smart as they think they are.

My wife of a few months was a smoker. She developed pneumonia and didn't tell me. I came home to find her in the pyramid position in bed and gasping for breath. To the ER we went. Long story short; the docs told her that if she kept smoking she would most likely end her days feeling that same way she did that day in bed; unable to draw a breath no matter how much she tried.
She never smoked another cigerette. Ever. No patch, No support Group. Simply Scared Straight.

When you pass your FAA PPL you need to display a modicum of IR capability (climb. dive. recovery) but in the back of your mind you know you won't be allowed to die. For some people this doesn't equate to a future danger.

If I were re-writing the FAR's i would make sure EVERY student got REAL IFR exposure for a couple of hours. Foggles are a video game. Real IMC not so much.


Chris

Besides; look how many training flights could occur...after all, when going after a PPL the weather is crappy 1/2 the time...

[steveinindy]

Maybe BFR's that consist less of honing the skillz your PPL "thinks" he has and a bit more of a reality check would work...
Rent a plane that Is IFR capable and pull him into the clouds. No foggles. REAL. Climbs. Decents. A 180* get the hell out turn. As he loses control for the third time admonish him that he and any friends or loved ones he had been flying with would be dead due to HIS ego.
Some people need to have the holy crap scared out of 'em to convince them they're not as smart as they think they are.

Darn straight.


If I were re-writing the FAR's i would make sure EVERY student got REAL IFR exposure for a couple of hours. Foggles are a video game. Real IMC not so much.

I couldn't agree more. I had something like 25 hours of real IMC time prior to Dave (my last CFI) and I coming to realization that I probably should go ahead and solo. I enjoyed his company while flying so much that it became less about "punching the clock and checking off the boxes" and more of a fun and productive time with a friend. His death from a massive coronary just before my solo really hit me hard.

[1600vw]

Steve I have to agree with everything you say. I put it all out on the table and leave nothing back. Not like most whom like to hold thier cards close to the body, I show my hand, honest upfront.

To date I have had 6 engine outs and one complete catastrophic failure, all flying single seaters so that would be, I was alone and on my own. I get ask..did you get scared....no time to think about it, you have a job and you better do it.

Do I think those events make me a better pilot, not to sure, but I am a smarter pilot.

Hope your Christmas was a good one for you and your's.

H.A.S.

[1600vw]

Steve I have to agree with everything you say. I put it all out on the table and leave nothing back. Not like most whom like to hold thier cards close to the body, I show my hand, honest upfront.

To date I have had 6 engine outs and one complete catastrophic failure, all flying single seaters so that would be, I was alone and on my own. I get ask..did you get scared....no time to think about it, you have a job and you better do it.

Do I think those events make me a better pilot, not to sure, but I am a smarter pilot.

Hope your Christmas was a good one for you and your's.

H.A.S.


I posted this in the wrong thread...Sorry about this people....I should know..... never post before coffee.

H.A.S

[Pearson]

H.A.S. I have read your posts on the video about the guy who crashed and also about taking passengers up. I find your viewpoints very interesting. I also find what you posted about having 6 engine outs and a catastrophic failure amazing, all while flying single seaters. Do you mind if I ask a little more about these situations? I have been flying for 40 years, most of that time as a professional pilot, and I don't think I have had as many engine failures as you. Were all of these engine failures in the same airplane? If so, I am curious as to what kind it was. What did you find as the cause of these failures? Please share your stories with us. Maybe we all can learn something from your experience.

I am also facinated by your posts on carrying passengers. I agree that if you don't feel comfortable carrying passengers until you have 500 or even a thousand hours, then you shouldn't. But if you are flying a single seat airplane how will you ever develop the experience of flying a two seater, even if that seat is empty. I would think it would be better to fly a two seater by yourself for awhile, so you could gain the experience to get you comfortable to fly with a passenger. Of course, if you have no desire to ever fly a passenger it doesn't matter. I have found aviation to be a lot like sex, it is more fun with a partner. :-) I applaud you for developing your own minimums regarding flying passengers and staying within them. I was very comfortable with the instruction I received and flew my first passenger just a few days after my PPL checkride. When I got my instrument rating, I used it to go on a pleasure trip very soon afterward that required flying through the clouds. If I hadn't felt comfortable doing this, I would not have. I believe that when anyone takes flying lessons they should be learning much more than just how to operate the controls. They should be learning about themselves, how they think and process information, what they are comfortable with and what makes them uncomfortable. I used to tell my students, when I was a flight instructor, that they have a gauge they carry around with them at all times. It is their gut. If it is talking to them, they should listen. If your gut tells you the weather ahead is more than you want to take on, do something about it. To the best of my knowledge, none of my students ever crashed. I really feel for the poor guy in that video. I bet his gut was yelling at him during the last few minutes of that flight.

[steveinindy]

Steve I have to agree with everything you say. I put it all out on the table and leave nothing back. Not like most whom like to hold thier cards close to the body, I show my hand, honest upfront.

No worries man. That's all anyone can ask of you in that regard. I've had three or four engine failures in my time- one in a Cessna 172 due to a maintenance error and the rest in ultralights- but the make takeaway point was that you need to use your flying time to build your skills and not wait for a certain number of hours to fly passengers or take longer (but still reasonable) trips.


To date I have had 6 engine outs and one complete catastrophic failure, all flying single seaters so that would be, I was alone and on my own. I get ask..did you get scared....no time to think about it, you have a job and you better do it.


Might I ask what you are flying that has had so many failures? If these are all on the same type of powerplant, it might be time to consider a different model or at very least consider the way in which you are handling it.



Do I think those events make me a better pilot, not to sure, but I am a smarter pilot.

Nothing scrubs away undeserved positive opinions of oneself like staring risk in the face....or landing an ultralight in someone's front yard and having to meekly ask "Do you mind if I use your phone?" as I had to do on one occasion after my engine started giving me problems.


Hope your Christmas was a good one for you and your's.
I don't personally observe it per se (since I am Jewish) but thanks for the sentiment. My fiancee and her family had a nice little private celebration of it which I attended. It is always nice to get to spend time with those you care about regardless of the reason or the season. Merry Christmas to you and your friends and family. Fly safe in the new year!

[martymayes]

the docs told her that if she kept smoking she would most likely end her days feeling that same way she did that day in bed; unable to draw a breath no matter how much she tried.
She never smoked another cigerette. Ever. No patch, No support Group. Simply Scared Straight.
...

Neighbor had triple bypass and docs said if he kept smoking he would be dead in 6 mos. He got a new doc that wasn't so adamant and kept smoking. Some people are invincible. That seems to be the case with the Cirrus pilot.

Which one would you rather fly with? Your wife or my neighbor?

[Frank Giger]

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental, but I don't really see the difference between an hour "around the patch" and three hours in cross-country, other than duration and change of airports.

I do the same weather analysis for both.
I have the same contingency plans for both (yes, I've diverted on a "local" flight to another airport).
I have my sectional out and check my waypoint landmarks for both.
I pre- and post- flight the same way.
In the air, I check fuel levels, weather, engine conditions, clouds, etc. continuously.

I also fail to see how something can be less or more dangerous if there is a passenger in the aircraft. The aircraft doesn't care, the weather doesn't care, and there's still only one person working the controls.

If a pilot is competent to fly it himself - and is honest about his limitations - I don't see what the big deal is.

Then again, I work on the starting premise that it isn't a good day to fly and then list all the mitigating factors to the risks until they are acceptable.

[edit]


Might I ask what you are flying that has had so many failures? If these are all on the same type of powerplant, it might be time to consider a different model or at very least consider the way in which you are handling it.

I got a dollar it was a two cycle Rotax. Everyone I know that has flown with them has had multiple "unscheduled landings" due to them conking out.

[Bob Meder]

I will speak up as someone who has spent a thousand or so hours driving under-equipped light aircraft around in crappy weather amongst tall rocks. The first rule I learned was to expect that the weather forecast was just a guess and the winds and ceiling will, not may, be different. And expect Mother Nature to throw you a curve ball on a regular basis. Where you really need to know the weather, there will not be a reporting station. So always launch with a backup plan and a hard limit of what weather will trigger going to plan B.

The second rule I learned was that when it was time to go to plan B, do it. You never every "gotta" get home today. The folks at a thousand small airports offer great sympathy and hospitality to wayward aviators. You meet wonderful people at unscheduled stops.

Then I learned that I do not have to fly a straight line to get to my destination. Some days, running 100 miles in a different direction from my desired course line will allow me to get where I want to go rather than flying up to some bad weather and sitting stuck while a big glob of low ceilings takes its time moving overhead.

Finally, the best decision making is done before you crank up and start taxiing. Know before your wheels leave the ground that it is OK to launch to look at the weather but decide before the throttle goes forward how just far you will go to look at the weather. Plan where you will go as soon as the weather gets worse than a limit you have set for yourself.

If you can make yourself think about the enroute weather, make a plan, make a backup plan, and then make yourself follow the plans, you can work your way home through surprisingly challenging weather. But only if you understand that its a step-by-step process and that process does not guarantee that at the end of that day you will be at your destination airport. If you are flying an VFR airplane and absolutely have to get somewhere, drive or buy an airline ticket.

In my small airplane travels, I have managed to cajole Mother Nature into letting me fly small airplanes with no equipment from Boston to San Francisco and from Montreal to Galveston. But Mother Nature is ruthless, gives the test before the lesson about it, and should always be viewed with a little paranoia as you study at her College of Aeronautical Knowledge.

The only way to build experience is to fly. Don't fly the same one flight 1000 times. Fly 1000 different flights and build your knowledge one bit at a time.

Merry Christmas,

Wes
N78PS

This ^^

This particular accident hits home for me, which is why I'm writing this instead of a postition article for NAFI Mentor Magazine. Part of it is because I fly in and out of Indianapolis fairly often (my wife's sister and her husband live about five minutes from Indy Metro). Part of it is because this accident occured in what I consider my "home turf" - I got my private certificate (not "license", although that's an argument for a different thread) at Waukegan Regional what seems like a million years ago and because I also work full time for the railroad that goes through that area.

But more than that. Way back in May of 2000, my wife and I flew from St. Louis back to Waukegan to see family in the northern Chicago suburbs. There were two fronts, as I recall, that were joined together south of St. Louis and were formed a giant "V" that straddled our planned route of flight, with a separation of about 150 - 200 miles on either side of Chicago. I think they were both cold fronts, or the leading one was a cold front and the trailer was a warm front - the latter makes more sense to me, given the conditions.

At Spirit of St. Louis, the bases were about 1,000, with reported tops of about 8,000. We filed for 9,000 and launched. At 9,000 feet were were literally right on top of a stratus layer. Looknig up, I could see stars - out to the left and right, I could see the reflection of our nav lights. It was like this most of the way to Chicago, although around Peoria, the tops did go down a little.

As we were being handed off from Kansas City Center to Peoria Approach, I heard ATC say to a TWA flight "There's a VFR Bellanca stuck on top and he sounds scared - do you have time to help him?" I thought briefly about offering, but I wasn't a CFI at the time and the TWA flight was probably in a better position, crew-wise, to provide assistance. I also did not want to clutter the frequency needlessly. So, off to check in with Peoria.

When we returned from St. Louis and were attending Missouri Pilot's Association picnic the following week, my instructor took me aside and asked me if I heard about the Bellanca that crashed over the weekend. With a sinking feeling, I told him no. It turns out that the non-instrument rated pilot and his passenger were killed in conditions that any instrument pilot wouldn't have tried at an airport without approaches - it would have been a challenge to land at the nearest airport with a precision approach.

The reason that this grieves me is not that I could have saved the day by jumping on the radio - far from it. At the time, I would have had no business trying to do so, and I probably would have made matters worse. No, it's because the narrative seems depressingly familiar. There seems to be an ethos in this business where some people will push to do impossible things, given the limitations of themselves and/or their airplanes. I will say that even the most capable of transport category aircraft, be it Boeing, Airbus, Brazilia, whatever, can be brought down by bad judgement.

Where am I going with this? I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I have far more respect for a pilot that has the courage to say "Nope, this ain't for me" then I do for the "pilot" that says "Whew - wasn't sure we were gonna make that one!" And it's not the number of hours. It is the quality of training, and, more importantly, the quality of thinking that goes into any flight, whether it's spinning around the patch or going on a transcontinental trip.

As Wes said, there is no compelling reason to ever take off. Even if it means getting fired from your job because you're late. Those of you that are AOPA members can find an article I wrote in Flight Training where I tell the story of getting stuck for week at my in-laws because I simply refused to risk a flight I felt a simple 172 couldn't handle. No, I didn't get fired - in fact, a lot of people in my office were impressed that I had the moxie to say "Oh, well." To add to that, one thing I ask all of my students when it comes to marginal weather (which might be different for VFR and IFR training): "Show me the emergency take off procedure for that airplane."

We, in GA, whether in the experimental faction or in the "spam can" world, must adopt the attitude the real pros, the airlines and business aviation communtiy, have and simply not fly beyond our capabilities. And the equipment and the airplane cannot replace judgement or skill - they are merely tools for our use, that's all.

We also have to adopt a culture where it's OK to listen to our peers when they say "Are you sure about this?" Rod Machado, in his collection Plane Talk has an article entitled "Time to Speak Up" that touches on this. Even if we don't like what we hear, we have to take it into consideration. And the person that cares enough to say something shouldn't be treated as a meddler; instead they should be thanked for caring enough to say something, even if we disagree.

OK, that was a bit disjointed, but I think you get the gist. Fly safely and encourage safe behavior, please, and have a wonderful New Year.

[danielfindling]

Fly safely and encourage safe behavior.

This phrase should be an integral part of EAA's culture.

[1600vw]

Solo'ed 7-12-09, My first bird was a 80's something quicksilver, after 3 engine outs with that I sold her. I then purchased a Brand new bird, engine and all, brand new.
At the 4 hour mark and at 1000' the engine came apart. I lost the complete reduction unit and prop. I had logged about 30 hrs solo by this time. This too was an ultralight.

The owner of the company where the engine was made told me he had a design flaw. He thought all old stock engines where gone, well I got one. It was brandnew, NOS { New Old Stock}. His new design had more bolts to hold the reduction unit on, the first design he said would fail..I said no shit. When I purchased this bird this engine was on it.

He said he thought all those engines where gone, guess not. He blamed everyone but himself for this, cussed me up one wall then the other for flying with this engine, would not stand behind his product and charged me over 1 grand to fix this engine. I sold it, bird and all.

I will tell you what saved me here was a radio. I was flying with friends all in our own birds. Myself and one other friend we had radio's. When I announced I had a catastrophic failure he talked me down. First he asked what happened, I did not know at the time, I just knew it was like a brick hit me and I was going down, but flying.

He told me where I was putting the bird down,watched me land, then went for help. I landed ever so nicely in a field with corn about 2 inchs tall. I can tell you I would not of landed their. I would have glided past this point and after this was nothing but tree's. I thought I was to high to make that field, today I would slip her in but back then I never had done a slip, never even knew about doing one.

Conversation on the radio....

Me.......Mayday Mayday I am going down......

Lynn....What happened?
me....No Idea but I had a catastrophic failure and it felt like a brick hit me.
Lynn..ok....you are landing right dwon thier in that corn field.....
Me....That field right below me....
Lynn...Yes...
Me..OK
Me..I am goinmg to fast I am going into those tree's....
Lynn...As soon as you touch the ground pull that stick back hard and let that tailwheel dig into the dirt..My bird had no brakes....
Me....Pause..
Lynn...You think you will go airborn again....you won't no thrust...
Me...OK.
Lynn....Great job and I am proud of you..
Me.. Thanks...as I step out and fall to the ground thanking the Lord for letting me live.

One friend followed the prop to the ground and Lynn stayed with me. After it was over and I was back in my hangar they told me I was calm and cool on the radio. I said not time to be anything but. It was after standing on the ground waiting for someone to come and get me my knees started to shake and it all set in what had just happened.

I walked those fields of tree's looking for that prop and reduction unit, for all fields around where tree's but this one field I landed in. I never did find that prop and reduction unit. I can just see the person whom finds it and then starts looking for an airplaneto go with it...lol

All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

H.A.S
P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

[Auburntsts]

Solo'ed 7-12-09, My first bird was a 80's something quicksilver, after 3 engine outs with that I sold her. I then purchased a Brand new bird, engine and all, brand new.
At the 4 hour mark and at 1000' the engine came apart. I lost the complete reduction unit and prop. I had logged about 30 hrs solo by this time. This too was an ultralight.

The owner of the company where the engine was made told me he had a design flaw. He thought all old stock engines where gone, well I got one. It was brandnew, NOS { New Old Stock}. His new design had more bolts to hold the reduction unit on, the first design he said would fail..I said no shit. When I purchased this bird this engine was on it.

He said he thought all those engines where gone, guess not. He blamed everyone but himself for this, cussed me up one wall then the other for flying with this engine, would not stand behind his product and charged me over 1 grand to fix this engine. I sold it, bird and all.

I will tell you what saved me here was a radio. I was flying with friends all in our own birds. Myself and one other friend we had radio's. When I announced I had a catastrophic failure he talked me down. First he asked what happened, I did not know at the time, I just knew it was like a brick hit me and I was going down, but flying.

He told me where I was putting the bird down,watched me land, then went for help. I landed ever so nicely in a field with corn about 2 inchs tall. I can tell you I would not of landed their. I would have glided past this point and after this was nothing but tree's. I thought I was to high to make that field, today I would slip her in but back then I never had done a slip, never even knew about doing one.

Conversation on the radio....

Me.......Mayday Mayday I am going down......

Lynn....What happened?
me....No Idea but I had a catastrophic failure and it felt like a brick hit me.
Lynn..ok....you are landing right dwon thier in that corn field.....
Me....That field right below me....
Lynn...Yes...
Me..OK
Me..I am goinmg to fast I am going into those tree's....
Lynn...As soon as you touch the ground pull that stick back hard and let that tailwheel dig into the dirt..My bird had no brakes....
Me....Pause..
Lynn...You think you will go airborn again....you won't no thrust...
Me...OK.
Lynn....Great job and I am proud of you..
Me.. Thanks...as I step out and fall to the ground thanking the Lord for letting me live.

One friend followed the prop to the ground and Lynn stayed with me. After it was over and I was back in my hangar they told me I was calm and cool on the radio. I said not time to be anything but. It was after standing on the ground waiting for someone to come and get me my knees started to shake and it all set in what had just happened.

I walked those fields of tree's looking for that prop and reduction unit, for all fields around where tree's but this one field I landed in. I never did find that prop and reduction unit. I can just see the person whom finds it and then starts looking for an airplaneto go with it...lol

All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

H.A.S
P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

Ahhh context - a beautiful thing. This puts a lot of the discussion into perspective.

[Mayhemxpc]

Previous comments: IMC training in prep for PPL: Absolutely. It doesn't take much, just enough. As a CFI it is always fun to sit back, and look at the student's face as they penetrate the cloud. (Keep your hand ready to counteract the student's reaction to pull up.) It gives them a whole new perspective.

The post about people not learning until they got scared enough. Oh, I love training teenage boys (CAP cadets.) They come at it as Flight Simulator aces. Takes what, 4 hours, before you can reach the point where they admit that they don't know how to fly? THEN they can learn. (You can't tell them, or show them. They have to figure it out for themselves.) Teenage girls are easier to teach. There is nothing sexist about that comment. It is entirely cultural. They don't come at it trying to prove to me that they already know how to fly. Saves the first 4 hours. The BEST is when the student does not yet have a driver's license. Little to "unlearn."

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

2 genuine engine failures due to fuel contamination and I unexpectedly ran a tank dry once (plenty of fuel in the other tank.) Landed on airport in the first, twin engine in the second (fortunately contamination was only in that tank) and for the third, OH it is amazing how fast you can go through the bold face "engine out" procedures. (And then feel like a fool.)

[Sam Buchanan]

All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

H.A.S
P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

Yes, context does explain a lot, and I suspected your background was with non-certificated engines when I saw your signature. But man.....you have had a most unfortunate flying "career" even for someone flying two-strokes!

I hope you are eventually able to relax and enjoy aviation, sounds like up to this point you haven't experienced the freedom and fun of aviation like most of us due to your "adventures" and understandable intimidation. And I encourage you to complete your private pilot training if you have not done so. This will do more than anything to instill confidence in your abilities and in the fact that most aircraft are not looking for an excuse to fall out from under us.

Who knows, you might start having so much fun that you will revise your "1000 hr requirement" for sharing the skies with a passenger. It would be a shame for you to miss one of the most incredible aspects of flying our aerocraft :)

[1600vw]

I had a stator go bad on a rotax. This was in a Hi-Max. The plane and engine had 25 hrs on them. So off came the stator. I order a Brand New stator for this engine. If you never purchased one of these let me tell you they are not cheap.

As soon as this Stator arrives I install it. I do a complete run up with the bird tied down, starting and running, then shutting down then doing it all over again. I ran her for about 1 hr on the ground. She always started right up and ran great.

I untie the bird and go and taxi her. I spend another 30 mins taxing around doing crow hops. I shut her down, do another preflight and head to the runway thrushold.

Check for traffic, slowly apply throttle and head down the runway. Just as I am getting ready to break gravity all went quiet. I knew right off what happened, and to say I was pissed was not saying enough.

I pull the bird over and get out. Then I reach in and unplug my ignition module and plug it into the other side of the stator. She fires right up. I taxi to the hangar for I will not fly this bird with this engine.

So off comes the engine and I buy a new engine then sell the bird. I was done with two strokes.

Here is a short video of this bird. This is the new owner flying her right after he purchased her from me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGro7gJfy8

H.A.S

[1600vw]

I looked in my log book and I did fly that bird again before pulling that engine. I came back the next day and pulled her back out.

After about 40 mins of flying above my field a freind " Lynn" flew in in his bird. I form up on his side and just as I do the engine goes almost to an idle. I head straight for the runway, as I land she stops running. I get out and the engine was siezed, it was then I was done with two strokes, that was engine out 6 in under 3 years.

I believe it was fuel oil seperation, the rear cylinder siezed.

H.A.S.

[Flyfalcons]

I fly safe and will not subject anyone to a low time pilot in the left seat as PIC. Just the way I do things. Say what you want, it does not bother me one bit....If this scares you, I feel for you......

What scares me is a low time pilot acting as PIC.....Look at the statistics.....They speak volumes.......Its pilots that think this way that kill people.....

You want to fly passengers there should be a min amount of logged hrs flying before you can take anyone up....

I hope Steve from Indy rings in on this, he see's what a low time pilot will get you......KILLED is what it will get you.

H.A.S.


You must be better then me...Thats ok for I am sure you are the best.

Either you're safe and stay within your limits or you're not. Taking 1000 hours of flight time to become safe is well behind the curve.

[Flyfalcons]

Nevermind. I see from your other posts where your fear comes from. There is a clear distinction between someone who has received the bare minimum instruction necessary to fly an ultralight, and someone who has received actual instruction and completed their Private training (minimal as that may be too).

[WLIU]

For all of our complaining about the FAA, the above makes you appreciate the study and training required for the Private Pilot Certificate.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

Nevermind. I see from your other posts where your fear comes from. There is a clear distinction between someone who has received the bare minimum instruction necessary to fly an ultralight, and someone who has received actual instruction and completed their Private training (minimal as that may be too).

I hold a LSA Student Certificate.

Its the fool whom keeps doing the same thing but expects different results.

We talk saftey....Want better saftey...But just go about doing the same thing.

Just trying to state maybe just maybe if we change something we will not be loosing good people as we do.

If I error in the name of safety I will live with that.

H.A.S.

[WLIU]

I will suggest that your LSA Student Pilot Certificate puts you on the road towards becoming a competent aviator. It may not be obvious to you today, but if you keep studying, you questions and concerns will be answered. You do not need to fret about the level of competency required to carry passengers, or the margins of safety. Simply studying, doing a lot of listening, and practice will get you where you want to go. Unlike many aspects of life today, it is not instant gratification. And Mother Nature will not be hurried.

Patience grasshopper.

Wes
N78PS

[1600vw]

I will suggest that your LSA Student Pilot Certificate puts you on the road towards becoming a competent aviator. It may not be obvious to you today, but if you keep studying, you questions and concerns will be answered. You do not need to fret about the level of competency required to carry passengers, or the margins of safety. Simply studying, doing a lot of listening, and practice will get you where you want to go. Unlike many aspects of life today, it is not instant gratification. And Mother Nature will not be hurried.

Patience grasshopper.




Wes
N78PS



Being a Student I read everything I can. I will look at the NTSB reports and try to understand what happened and not repete it. I am sure most everyone does this.

A friend tells me I read to much. I just want to have fun and be safe.

H.A.S.

[Flyfalcons]

I hold a LSA Student Certificate.

Its the fool whom keeps doing the same thing but expects different results.

We talk saftey....Want better saftey...But just go about doing the same thing.

Just trying to state maybe just maybe if we change something we will not be loosing good people as we do.

If I error in the name of safety I will live with that.

H.A.S.

A student certificate represents the bare minimum to solo an airplane. It is a far cry from completing the private pilot training. If you want to err in the name of safety, then the best way to do that is to get more training with a competent instructor. It'll go a long way for your confidence and skill.

[WLIU]

Aviation is learned by doing, much more than by reading. Reading gives you background and theory. Doing lets you see how theory relates to the real world and where theory falls short. Mother Nature does not respect the internet or folks who write a lot and fly little. One of the things that you learn when you fly a lot is what really works vs what is good for hangar conversation or internet posting.

Go fly.

Wes

[Bill Greenwood]

I disagree with some of what Wes is saying, that doing and not reading about flying teaches you as a pilot, particularly a new pilot.
Doing, can give you certain skills, like hand and eye coordination, but it can also be just repeating the same mistakes or improper procedure again over and over.

Reading, if it is the right sources, gives you the experience and learning of those who have gone before.
When I was a student pilot, I had the time and interest to read much about flying, and I still do a lot.
I also have spent a lot of time at airports or airstrips watching others fly and learning from that, both the good and what not to do.
And being able to talk to others about flying is a big part of it also.

[WLIU]

You are welcome to disagree. In the last 25 or so years of aviating one thing that Mother Nature has taught me is that you don't know what you don't know. Reading about density altitude, or hearing someone talk about density altitude, is not the same as launching from Sheridan Wyoming on a warm day at gross weight with the DA at maybe 6,000'. And reading about orographic lifting only partly prepares you for picking your way around tall rocks on a marginal weather day. Study is important. Listening to the older heads is important. But flying is real life, to paraphrase Steve McQueen.

Go fly.

Happy New Year.

Wes
N78PS

[Frank Giger]

Hmmm, may I suggest a middle proposition for the study vs. experience debate?

I'd say it depends on what one is reading and how one is flying that makes the difference on whether or not either is going forward in helping the pilot become an aviator.

I'm a Sport Pilot with low hours - around 50 or so - and am very, very aware that my ignorance far outweighs my knowledge/experience base. Not to say I'm not competent within the personal minimums I've set for myself, mind you - I've brought along some really Ace guys with me that have a lifetime of flying in all sorts of aircraft including Champs that say I'm "pretty good." And in our circles that's as high a praise as I can think of.

Knowing about density altitude and gross weight on a hot day by reading or talking through it with an experienced pilot gives one a heads-up on what to expect....which translates to better performance in the aircraft, as one knows that it will take more of that strip to take off and a longer climb time.

One of things I do is have a point to every flight (I fly mostly local) and tie it to something I've read or heard. Sometimes it's ground reference manuevers, others it's compass navigation, occasionally slow flight, etc.

As part of the low and slow association, a big part of my flying is ensuring that there's a decent place to land if the Big Fan goes quiet. Last time up I decided to put my judgement to the test and pull carb heat, idle down, and see if I could make my designated spots. Not too bad, but then I cross-checked with some older hands and found out that while some of my places were better than trees or the river, the ground was actually more marsh than field and I'd of most likely flipped it. The river had been up - minor flooding - and had just gone down to bring the fields back to the sunlight; picking a place another 500 feet from where I'd selected from the river would have been much, much firmer ground.

Factoid to put in my head - translate recent past weather into how it will effect the fields along watersheds. Maybe it might save my life some day.

I also read that power lines are often invisible over roads. Hmmm, maybe little ones, but the big, thick black powerlines? So I took her down to 200 feet AGL along a road (in a rural area with no structures or people around) and flew alongside a road I thought was clear of lines and looked. Yep, they're invisible....until it would be too late to do anything but shout an obscenity.

So it's a mix.

If all one ever does is read but doesn't tie it to actually flying, it's just academic and as important to flying as is good penmanship.

If one never reads or seeks counsel from others and learns only by trial and error, it's unnecessarily risky.

With a few exceptions. Nothing can really prepare a pilot for a spin but actual spin training, IMHO; talk it though with an instructor and then go do it. And wake turbulence? One can do everything to avoid it and it can still grab one...and it really has to be dealt with in order to know how to deal with it.

[David Pavlich]

Frank, what you say is so true. A person has to be able to apply what he's read to make the reading worth while. I own a tennis shop and have been stringing racquets for quite a while. I've actually strung a bit on the ATP/WTA tour. I consider myself a professional with about 18,000+ racquets strung. I was able to apply all that I read about stringing and it is a big help. However, my proficiency took a while to get to the point that I can do a racquet in about 15 minutes at cruise speed (pardon the analogy) by doing. I can speed up if needed, but it's not as comfortable. The reading was a basis, the doing made it what it is.

So...it just adds to the argument that what is read is useless if it's not applied properly.

David

[WLIU]

Sounds like you are working on the flying part. All good stuff.

I will offer an agricultural tip. The books say when over a plowed field, land with the furrows, but then most pilots say land into the wind. Corn is plowed about 9" deep and if you land into the wind across the furrows you will likely just have a bumpy landing. But around where I am, potatoes are plowed 18" deep and a friend discovered the hard way that if you land into the wind across the furrows of a potato field your landing gear will dig in and you will flip onto your back.

So the "book" offers the guidance to land on plowed fields with the furrows, but not enough emphasis as to why that is more important than landing into the wind if you want to use the airplane again sometime soon.

Knowledge is also regional. I have seen a bunch of "flatland" pilots come to grief when flying around tall rocks. They just did not know what they did not know and did not respect that the airplane will happily take them places where their lack of knowledge will hurt them.

So go fly. Poke your nose into challenging places a little bit at a time. Fly in marginal weather close to home so you know what it looks like and how it acts, but can land as soon as it gets too interesting. Climb up high and carefully explore what the manual says the airplane can do. Mother Nature loves to try to find the holes in your knowledge and take advantage of them. First the test, then the lesson.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[pacerpilot]

I hold a LSA Student Certificate.

Its the fool whom keeps doing the same thing but expects different results.

We talk saftey....Want better saftey...But just go about doing the same thing.

Just trying to state maybe just maybe if we change something we will not be loosing good people as we do.

If I error in the name of safety I will live with that.

H.A.S.

Howdy 1600VW,

You might want to consider starting a new thread that addresses your concerns about pilot experience and passenger carrying; i.e. pilot certification requirements. I've read your posts and it seems you've had a significant amount of misfortune in your very "young" aviation career and have developed impressions/attitudes that may actaully be detrimental to your flying. Just a thought since there's an absolute world of info and experience within the EAA.