Thunderbirds at Osh 2013?

[glider90]

Schedule from ICAS says yes, on July 31st. That would certainly be a first....
~Jim Buxton
Columbus Ohio

[Zack Baughman]

This is just a wild guess with no factual information behind it, but I'm thinking that they could do an abbreviated show with some formation fly-bys and perhaps some single ship demos. My understanding is the aerobatic box isn't big enough for a full show because of the businesses and homes on the east side of the airport. I'm sure we'll get an update soon.

Zack

[Joe]

With the big cut in the defense budget and see what is on at our air base, I would not be surprised if the Thunderbirds do not come to AirVenture, or we see alot of military aircraft on display, as well.

[scuba72]

According to the Thunderbird's web site they are scheduled in Oshkosh for the 31st of July. It doesn't say it will be the full show or just one F-16 as in the past though

[Mayhemxpc]

Friday will tell. All military demo teams will be grounded if the budget isn't resolved (along with 40% of the surface warfare fleet unable to sail.)

[Joe]

3/1/2013 - WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- As the Air Force braces for potential sequester, leadership has cancelled all aviation support to public events for at least the remainder of the fiscal year and is standing down the Thunderbirds aerial demonstration team to save flying hours to support readiness needs.

Effective today, active-duty, Reserve and Guard units will cease all aviation support to the public. This includes the cancellation of support to all air shows, tradeshows, flyovers (including funerals and military graduations), orientation flights, heritage flights, F-22 demonstration flights and open houses, unless the event includes only local static assets.

Additionally, the Air Force will cancel the Thunderbirds' entire 2013 season beginning April 1.

The Thunderbirds and Heritage Flight crews will complete their certification procedures for safely flying aerial demonstrations in case the budget allows resumption of scheduled events in 2013, but and the Air Force will cease participation in Heritage flights following certification.

The Air Force will reduce flying hours by as much as 18 percent -- approximately 203,000 hours -- and impacts will be felt across the service and directly affect operational and training missions.

"While we will protect flying operations in Afghanistan and other contingency areas, nuclear deterrence and initial flight training, roughly two-thirds of our active-duty combat Air Force units will curtail home station training," said Chief of Staff Gen. Mark A. Welsh III.

Since all aerial support to public and military events is flown at no additional cost to the taxpayer using allotted training hours, the Air Force had no choice but to cancel support to these events.

"Engaging with the public is a core Air Force mission and communicating and connecting with the public is more important today than ever before. However, faced with deep budget cuts, we have no choice but to stop public aviation support," said Brig. Gen. Les Kodlick, the director of Air Force Public Affairs. "The Air Force will reevaluate the program at the end of the fiscal year and look for ways to curtail the program without having to cancel aviation support altogether."

The Air Force will continue to seek additional ways to remain engaged with the American public.

[glider90]

Sorry to bring up the old thread, but since the sequester knocked it off in 2013...the T-birds are on the schedule again now for 2014, this time two days?

[Kyle Boatright]

Sorry to bring up the old thread, but since the sequester knocked it off in 2013...the T-birds are on the schedule again now for 2014, this time two days?

Nothing says Grass Roots Aviation like a military demo team that makes it impossible to carry on a conversation, participate in a forum, or read peacefully in the shade for the duration of the performance.

[krw920]

Nothing says Grass Roots Aviation like a military demo team that makes it impossible to carry on a conversation, participate in a forum, or read peacefully in the shade for the duration of the performance.

They are scheduled to be there the last Sat & Sun, so most of the "grass roots" people are long gone by then! Besides, what person who loves aviation doesn't get exited by the Thunderbirds? I think ALL aircraft are cool, from the smallest and slowest, to the biggest and loudest! I would love to fly in them all!

[Floatsflyer]

... what person who loves aviation doesn't get exited by the Thunderbirds?

KRW...ahhhh, that would be me. Not just them but all jets. I'm a prop guy, jets don't do much for me. And I'm way beyond loving aviation, it's actually my mistress(extreme amounts of attention and money)!

[Kyle Boatright]

They are scheduled to be there the last Sat & Sun, so most of the "grass roots" people are long gone by then!

Which raises the question - Are we putting on the show for EAA members or the general public from Milwaukee, Green Bay, and Appleton?

[PaulDow]

That question was answered a long time ago when the flightline was opened to everyone.
Since the dues have stayed at $40 for many years, I guess it's not a bad tradeoff.

I see Aero-news is showing the T-Birds are working to do a full show. They often just post press release type information.
I wonder how that will be done with the limited space? Maybe the performance can shift south to the ultralight strip so activity and turns are done over the open areas south of the airport.

[jjhoneck]

That question was answered a long time ago when the flightline was opened to everyone.
Since the dues have stayed at $40 for many years, I guess it's not a bad tradeoff.

I've often wondered why that decision was made.

At our first OSH fly-in, 32 years ago, as non-members we were kept from the flight line where all the cool planes were. So, despite the fact that we didn't have a pot to pee in, Mary and I anteed up, and joined EAA.

The rest is history, and I thank my lucky stars for that decision -- but I often wonder what would have happened had we just been able to walk out to the flight line, the way we do now.

Would I have joined EAA? Probably not, meaning that I would have missed out on the chapter experience, and all of the subtle (and not so subtle) influences that ultimately convinced me to take flight lessons, despite the financial hardships. (Even with all those influences, it would be another 11 years before I could do it.)

Or maybe I would have found another way. We will never know, of course -- but I wonder if EAA is doing themselves a disservice by allowing non-members on the flight line at OSH.

[Tom Steber]

I have been told for years that we couldn't have a jet team like the Thunderbirds/Blue Angels fly their routine at Oshkosh because of the airspace. And the close proximity to the surrounding neighborhoods. But yet, I remember seeing the Snowbirds (in either the late 70's or early 80's) and Frecce Tricolori (mid 80's) fly their whole routines. Granted much slower aircraft, but still faster than most piston formation groups that we have now. I would love an "official" explanation to set the record straight. I hope it will be a full performance this coming year. I believe it will bring attendance way up on those days. I for one will want to catch the Saturday show.

[CarlOrton]

I always have a soft spot in my heart for the Thunderbirds.

I was fresh-out of school and was in my first week of employment at a certain aerospace firm. After about the 3rd or 4th day, my manager told one of the old hands to give me a tour of the facility. After checking out the simulators and chicken gun, we eventually make it out to one of our integration labs which was located about 300' from the edge of the runway of the AF base with which we shared a runway.

As we're walking between facilities, a zinc-chromate colored F-16 starts his takeoff roll in full AB. By the time he's abreast us, he pulls it up 90 degrees into a perfectly vertical ballistic climb with us standing relatively underneath him. Made my career.

As it turns out, that bird was one of the first Thunderbird F-16's after they made the transition. While we always painted aircraft in the customer's colors, the Thunderbirds were only painted by their USAF crews.

You know you work amongst a group of plane geeks when, even after 30 years, all heads in the parking lot turn when something takes off in full AB. Funny how an F-16 or '18 will set off a few car alarms in the lot, but when a B-1 goes up, EVERY alarm goes off!

Yeah, you can't converse or hear anything else when one of the jets is performing, but for me it's the same exhilarating, chest-pounding sensation you get when strapped into a '60's muscle car with a large-block V8 and open headers, or firing a .357, or having a great bass riff of a great rock band pounding into you. It's not just aural, it turns physical, enveloping you. Total immersion.

I love piston aircraft, have owned a few, and have built my own. They're all a thrill to fly, but that doesn't stop my from loving the others.

[Jeff Boatright]

I've often wondered why that decision was made.

At our first OSH fly-in, 32 years ago, as non-members we were kept from the flight line where all the cool planes were. So, despite the fact that we didn't have a pot to pee in, Mary and I anteed up, and joined EAA.

... -- but I wonder if EAA is doing themselves a disservice by allowing non-members on the flight line at OSH.


I don't know why that decision was made, either. I've always wondered if that decision also coincided with changes to how close attendees are allowed to approach the runway and the performing planes. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I swear that when I first attended in '85, members were allowed to get extremely close to everything. I recall being one of a crowd that was crowding around the Harrier as it landed, thinking "Uh-oh, I'm think I'm TOO close!" I skipped a few Oshkoshs in the 90s, and then when I got back, it seemed that nobody was allowed near anything! Anyway, I've always wondered if members were allowed a certain leeway that went away once everyone was allowed onto the flight line.

[TedK]

Which raises the question - Are we putting on the show for EAA members or the general public from Milwaukee, Green Bay, and Appleton?

The General Public. We want more of them so we can charge them to help offset the FAA Extortion. Particularly if they come at the end of the week.

[flibmeister]

I have been told for years that we couldn't have a jet team like the Thunderbirds/Blue Angels fly their routine at Oshkosh because of the airspace. And the close proximity to the surrounding neighborhoods. But yet, I remember seeing the Snowbirds (in either the late 70's or early 80's) and Frecce Tricolori (mid 80's) fly their whole routines.

The rules regarding air shows have changed substantially since the full jet team performances allowed in the '70s and '80's, plus there's been more buildup around the airport, so it's a whole new ballgame these days. But here are the basics, last I checked:

1. Jet's are Category I.
2. Category I aircraft performing aerobatics need an aerobatic area devoid of non-essential people that's at least 1500' from the show line on each side (so, 3000 feet total), although under some circumstances, one side of that can be reduced to 1200' (so, 2700 feet total).
3. Length of the aerobatic area can vary, but the jet teams usually have a 6000 foot minimum.

So, for the Thunderbirds to perform an aerobatic routine at OSH, a way would have to be found to provide them an area with minimum dimensions of 6000' x 2700', that could be rendered sterile of all people during the performance. Buildings, roads, parked airplanes, etc., are all okay-- there just can't be any people there. The placement of the runway doesn't matter, as long as it's at least 500' from people.

Trivia: I can't tell you exactly when the rules regarding jet aerobatics changed, but it was in the mid to late '80's. I was sitting next to Bob Hoover at the HoJo's bar when he was told about it, by a pair of embarrassed GADO (now FSDO) IIC's, tasked by the FAA to explain to BOB HOOVER that, even though he'd brought the Sabreliner to the show planning to do his full aerobatic routine in it, they were not going to allow it. The ensuing conversation was, um, "interesting"-- and, as we all know, not Bob's last encounter with the FSDO muckety-mucks bureaucratic wonderland.

For those interested in learning more about the requirements to obtain waivered airspace for an air show, use Google to find a copy of FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 3, Chapter 6:

ISSUE A CERTIFICATE OF WAIVER OR AUTHORIZATION FOR AN AVIATION EVENT

[FlyingRon]

Yeah, I remember when the Blues performed at Frederick, they even closed down I-70 during the show.

[PaulDow]

The rules regarding air shows have changed substantially since the full jet team performances allowed in the '70s and '80's...
The rules were changed after the 1998 Ramstein crash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_airshow_disaster)where planes collided during a maneuver toward the audience. 68 people were killed and 346 injured.
Even the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome had to move people back from the runway. Formations can't be done toward the crowd either. The Thunderbirds do that redirection where your attention is focused in front, and then the single plane comes up from behind with afterburners on. I must have seen their show over a dozen times. I know it's coming, yet it always startles me.


...At our first OSH fly-in, 32 years ago, as non-members we were kept from the flight line where all the cool planes were. So, despite the fact that we didn't have a pot to pee in, Mary and I anteed up, and joined EAA.

The rest is history, and I thank my lucky stars for that decision -- but I often wonder what would have happened had we just been able to walk out to the flight line, the way we do now.

Would I have joined EAA? Probably not, meaning that I would have missed out on the chapter experience, and all of the subtle (and not so subtle) influences that ultimately convinced me to take flight lessons, despite the financial hardships. (Even with all those influences, it would be another 11 years before I could do it.)

Or maybe I would have found another way. We will never know, of course -- but I wonder if EAA is doing themselves a disservice by allowing non-members on the flight line at OSH.Looking at the price list, it seems that 1 day for 2 adults and 2 children is the break-even point for becoming an EAA member. Anything more than that, and you save on admission by paying the $40 for a membership.
A few of those members may learn to become active participants, but I'm sure many won't even read the magazine when they get it.

[FlyingRon]

You didn't have to be a member to get on the flight line. All you had to do was be a pilot or a member of the EAA or some other aviation group (like AOPA).

[flibmeister]

The rules were changed after the 1998 Ramstein crash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_airshow_disaster)where planes collided during a maneuver toward the audience.


While it's true that a lot of air show rules were changed as a result of the Ramstein crash, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the incident that resulted in OSH losing the ability to host jet teams; that change took place several years earlier. I was a controller working OSH the year I eavesdropped on the feds conversation with Bob (in those days, controllers and performers were put up at the same motel and we all drank at the same bar), so that would put it in the time frame of '80 to '91.

IIRC, it had become more and more difficult to ensure that the homes and other buildings on the east side of 18/36 were unoccupied. We'd had problems with that in past years-- homes that were supposed to be vacated instead had people sitting in lawn chairs in the back yard, watching the show. I think the feds just chose that year to go with a strict enforcement policy: there was no way to ensure all the homes were truly vacated, so the FAA refused to issue the Category I waiver. There was no jet team scheduled that year, so Bob's performance in the Sabreliner was the only one affected. There may have been an effort to fix the problem in one of the succeeding years, seems like there was one more year when we had a jet team fly-- but the same problems arose, and there hasn't been an aerobatic jet demo there since (with the exception of the BD-5 Jet, which is considered a Category III, so only needs 500' from spectators instead of 1500').

[PaulDow]

.
...in those days, controllers and performers were put up at the same motel and we all drank at the same bar), so that would put it in the time frame of '80 to '91.I'm shocked; shocked to find that drinking is going on in here!
I don't know how many houses and businesses would need to be cleared, but that's got to be pretty impossible to get 100% to agree and comply. I would think being able to hold a party at your house or business would be a trade-off from dealing with the crowds and traffic for the week.

[Mayhemxpc]

There has got to be ways around that. Some years ago (a few more than ten but less than 15) I was in Chicago at the same time as the wings and water event on the lakeshore. I was on the observation deck of the Sears Tower when the Thunderbirds started their routine. They use the Sears tower as their turning point. It was awesome to look DOWN on the jets as they made the turns.