An autopilot in a Waco.........huh?

[iFLYblog]

I pontificate on the subject of putting an autopilot in a 30s era biplane clone - what has the world come to?


http://iflyblog.com/2012/11/02/waco-classic-won-autopilot-approval-really/


Here's the headline that drove me to madness:
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2012/11/01/71216/

I posted this on some other forums, but I thought I would throw it out to the EAA crowd to see what you thought. Personally, I'm perplexed.

[WingsAloft]

You're from Ohio. Please go vote.

[WingsAloft]

..and the Waco? Yeah, that kinda ticks me off. What's next, air conditioning?

[iFLYblog]

You're from Ohio. Please go vote.

Yes sir! Will do.

[WingsAloft]

You're from Ohio. Please go vote.
Thanks!!!!!!

[WeaverJ3Cub]

I pontificate on the subject of putting an autopilot in a 30s era biplane clone - what has the world come to?



Haha, that's exactly what I thought!

[steveinindy]

..and the Waco? Yeah, that kinda ticks me off. What's next, air conditioning?

What's wrong with air conditioning?

Even as the type of pilot who prefers automation, putting an autopilot in a Waco is a bit much. As much as I think cruise flight is a pain in the butt and like being able to punch a couple buttons and hand it off to George, one with that attitude doesn't normally fly a Waco.

[Louis]

Then there's the Waco with the glass cockpit: http://ext.dynamiteinc.com/waco/waco2.html I wonder when the turbine version is coming out?

[rwanttaja]

What's wrong with air conditioning?

Even as the type of pilot who prefers automation, putting an autopilot in a Waco is a bit much. As much as I think cruise flight is a pain in the butt and like being able to punch a couple buttons and hand it off to George, one with that attitude doesn't normally fly a Waco.

But if the owner is planning on actually *flying* somewhere, an autopilot is not a bad idea. The Waco won't get there fast, and I can see the advantage of being able to let George do it. One doesn't HAVE to let the autopilot fly the plane at all. But it's a nice thing to have, in some situations. Long trips in open cockpit airplanes sound romantic, but they're actually a bit of a pain.

I rebuilt my Fly Baby's electrical system last spring, and came within an RCH of installing a Dynon EFIS. The only thing that stopped me (I had permission to spend the money from CINCHOME) was that I would have had to completely rebuild the panel structure. Decided I didn't want to fiddle with it.

Ron Wanttaja

[steveinindy]

One doesn't HAVE to let the autopilot fly the plane at all. But it's a nice thing to have, in some situations.

Agreed.


Long trips in open cockpit airplanes sound romantic, but they're actually a bit of a pain.

Long hand-flown trips in just about anything are a pain.


The Waco won't get there fast

Then again, if you're flying a Waco, you probably aren't looking for speed. ;)


I had permission to spend the money from CINCHOME

Love the acronym. My CINCHOME is helping with the design process and wants to help with the build. She's a keeper I tell you!

[pittsdriver3]

They do come with glass cockpits. I talked to the factory once and asked them why almost all of them came with full IFR panels with dual 530's etc. He said their main customers were ex-airline types and that's what they wanted. Why would you be flying open cockpit in conditions that would warrant that kind of equipment. I like the N3N I fly, very basic instruments a COMM and a TXP. I do like using a handheld GPS as reading and folding maps can be a pain in open cockpit. As for autopilot just bring a friend along.

[steveinindy]

Why would you be flying open cockpit in conditions that would warrant that kind of equipment. I like the N3N I fly, very basic instruments a COMM and a TXP. I do like using a handheld GPS as reading and folding maps can be a pain in open cockpit.

Because the airline pilot crowd looks at a basic glass cockpit the same way we look at the "basic six-pack"?


As for autopilot just bring a friend along.

George is a friend. ;)

[rwanttaja]

They do come with glass cockpits. I talked to the factory once and asked them why almost all of them came with full IFR panels with dual 530's etc. He said their main customers were ex-airline types and that's what they wanted. Why would you be flying open cockpit in conditions that would warrant that kind of equipment. I like the N3N I fly, very basic instruments a COMM and a TXP. I do like using a handheld GPS as reading and folding maps can be a pain in open cockpit. As for autopilot just bring a friend along.

Like I mentioned in an earlier posting, I almost replaced the steam gauges on my Fly Baby with a Dynon. If I were building a new Fly Baby, I'd definitely use one instead of steam gauges. The installation is SO much easier, and lighter to boot.

Ron Wanttaja

[Ernie]

Does everyone here always use every piece of equipment in their airplane every flight? The Classic Waco YMF-5(C or D) is an airplane with a solid basis in the '30s. It's built with the type certificate from the era. It is also built in the 21st century and takes advantage of that. Surprise! They don't cover it in cotton. It has an alternator, modern brakes, a steerable tailwheel and several other changes from the original. You can specify it with a glass panel and an autopilot. Well, see, you can fly it for close to four hours with reserve, IFR at night. I very much enjoy flying my "C" on cross countries. Did I mention mine has fuel injection, and electronic ignition has replaced the old points and condenser on one side (the "advance" side on which one starts the Jake.)

The glass panel has the significant advantage over the gyros in mine in that when you go play and do spins and larosas you don't do any damage. The autopilot would extend the time I would feel comfortable in IMC. Would I use it VFR? Probably not, even on a long cross country (well maybe when I wanted to eat lunch).

I would love to have an antique Waco, specifically a Taperwing. It would be pretty basic and have minimal stuff on it, but I probably would spring for LED lighting. I bought my YMF-5C in Oregon, and flew it home to TN via southern CA and Tucson, AZ about 2,200 miles. Had a friend up front and he did a lot of the flying. But the same trip by myself would make a good argument for an autopilot. I guess I don't understand the angst expressed here. The Classic Waco is a very special airplane, and I feel very lucky to have one. It is aerobatic, IFR/VFR, day/night and above all a blast to fly. Why wouldn't you put an autopilot in it if you could?

Ernie

[Louis]

In my case, the "angst" is only sour grapes because I can't afford one!:(

Seriously, though you're right. The Waco wan't a cheap airplane in the 30's and the few who could afford them would have likely equipped them with the latest and greatest gear for that time. It's a continuation of an airplane design from the 30's, not an attempt to bring back the 30's (I still hope they don't put a turbine on one though!)

IFR capability would be nice, but if I flew up here there wouldn't be too many times I could penetrate clouds without getting a quarter inch of rime on my goggles and moustache. Like mentioned above, the first generation of pilots who consider a glass cockpit to be normal is already here. " Conventional" instrumentation will soon become unconventional, just like "conventional" landing gear did. Time and technology moves on.

I wonder how long new "steam guages" will even be available for sale?....Louis

[Joe LaMantia]

Interesting conversation and topic.

Having only flown with an autopilot a couple of times, I will attest that it is really nice on a long cross-country. I fly our club Archer from Ohio to Wisconsin without "George" and it can be work on a bumpy or windy day. I also fly a '58 TriPacer mostly locally which is a rag and tube kite w/o any mechanical help. If I could afford a new YMF-5 or even a Carbon Cub I would want to add the autopilot so I could free my hands for coffee, a snack, or eventually using Sporty's "Little John"! If your going to use the airplane for what it was designed for then adding modern technology for comfort and safety makes sense...If your just going to set a Classic in front of your hanger for passers by to admire then save your money and keep it "pure".

Joe
:cool:

[Jim Clark]

Have to put my 2 cents in on this one. Don't want to sound like the old Dan Quayle - Lloyd Bentsen debate but; I know Waco's. Waco's are friends of mine, and sir, a Waco Classic is not a Waco.

When you are selling a NEW 2012 Airplane for almost half a million bucks your client probably wants glass and an autopilot.

You won't see an autopilot in my 1929 Waco CSO or 1939 Waco EGC-8 and both have been flown across the country.

[Frank Giger]

The reason for the autopilot and the glass panel is simple - when performing a mail run between Chicago and Dayton at night in bad weather it will really help out. Charles Lindbergh fully approves of the upgrades.

It's the owner's aircraft, not mine, and so long as it's safe enough that he isn't hitting me in the air or crashing into me on the ground I don't have a dog in the hunt. Paint the thing in a pink Hello Kitty scheme for all I care.

I do think it's funny that anyone would buy a Waco with the notion that it would make for a good first choice when it came to long cross country flying.

[Ernie]

Jim,
It is hard to argue with what you say. I personally love the true antiques and if I ever have the time to fly more, want a Taperwing and an RNF. Neither would have an autopilot or a glass panel. The Classic is a different animal. As someone else said in an earlier post, it is an evolving machine not a replica of anything. They have now been building the YMF in Michigan since 1986 and the "C" which was a major mod since 1991. The "real" Waco company never built any model that long. Different FAA, different labor cost. Waco built so many models it can be confusing, and they built many models of which less than 10 examples came off the line. The original YMF-5 was 15 if I recall correctly, with a much smaller number of UMFs with a Continental. In many ways, Classic is following the original Waco business model. OH Waco built what their customers wanted with whatever the customer wanted. Most of their customers were "special" - they had money in the middle of the Great Depression. In 1935 not very many people could have afforded the YMF-5. In 2012 that is still true. I don't think the MI factory sells the airplane to people that think it replaces a true antique. They do make a base model for the ride hoppers, one of the markets they have. These are mostly toys, for people that can afford them, and it is actually a pretty capable airplane. It is not a Bonanza or Mooney, but can do most of what they can, only a lot slower. I have flown, and will continue to fly, cross country in my YMF-5C and I won't spend the money for an autopilot, but I wouldn't mind having one in the airplane, and it wouldn't detract from it that I can tell. Every autopilot I have ever used has had an off button.

There is a reason Baskin Robbins makes all those different flavors.


Have to put my 2 cents in on this one. Don't want to sound like the old Dan Quayle - Lloyd Bentsen debate but; I know Waco's. Waco's are friends of mine, and sir, a Waco Classic is not a Waco.

When you are selling a NEW 2012 Airplane for almost half a million bucks your client probably wants glass and an autopilot.

You won't see an autopilot in my 1929 Waco CSO or 1939 Waco EGC-8 and both have been flown across the country.

[Ernie]

Color me funny, I love going cross country in it when I have the time. It is slow, and I consider 600 miles as a good daily limit, but I use it for personal and business trips whenever the weather cooperates. :)


SNIP I do think it's funny that anyone would buy a Waco with the notion that it would make for a good first choice when it came to long cross country flying.

[Joe LaMantia]

Ernie,

I can relate to your comment having read a really fun book this past summer by Stephen Coonts. He bought a restored Stearman and spent a summer flying all over the US. If you enjoy cross-country flying "old School" pick-up "The Cannibal Queen: A flight into the heart of America".

Joe
:cool: