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View Full Version : Arrival Question - Slow Airplanes



Kyle Boatright
08-18-2011, 07:36 PM
Is there a way to create an arrival procedure for slow aircraft? I mean really slow aircraft like 2 stroke Kitfoxes, J-3's, etc.? One of those aircraft (which I love to see at the show) can really stack up the arrival process, creating the opportunity for a dangerous situation behind the slow-flyer.

Certainly, the guy/gal flying the Comanche (for instance) has options other than following the train at 70 mph, at gross, and maybe S-turning, but people become so arrival fixated that they sometimes lose sight of the big picture (safety) and press bad situations.

And no, I have no idea how to integrate a dedicated "slow" arrival pattern with everyone else.

Bob Meder
08-18-2011, 09:44 PM
Good point. In 2007, I think, I was behind a Kitfox in a 172SP arriving on 9. I had 10 degrees of flaps from Fisk to the runway trying to keep some spacing. At the threshold, the controller working that runway said "blue and white Cessna, go around to the right - the 310 behind you is coming up too fast".

My biggest concern, of course, is tangling with someone I don't see. The year I flew in in a Cherokee Six is a case in point - at 90 KIAS, that long snoot is horsed up a fair amount and leaves a pretty good blind spot.

Rick Rademacher
08-19-2011, 07:56 AM
Stay tuned as we are trying to discern the best arrival plan for about 100 plus J-2/J-3 cubs next year for the 75th anniversary of the cub.

Gary.Sobek
08-31-2011, 06:01 PM
The procedure works very well and has for years. It does not need changed. This was my 12-year flying into AirVenture Oshkosh.

I once got behind a slow aircraft. I turned out and re-entered at RIPON. IF you get behind a slow aircraft, just turn out and re-sequence at RIPON.

Kyle Boatright
08-31-2011, 07:11 PM
The procedure works very well and has for years. It does not need changed. This was my 12-year flying into AirVenture Oshkosh.

I once got behind a slow aircraft. I turned out and re-entered at RIPON. IF you get behind a slow aircraft, just turn out and re-sequence at RIPON.

Not everyone makes good decisions like that, and the slow airplanes are a problem when you're in an aircraft which is incompatable with their arrival speeds. I can think of two fatal accidents that were caused by the chain of events I described in my first post. IMO, that doesn't speak well for the pilots involved OR the procedure which put them in that situation.

We need to find a way to avoid mixing aircraft in the arrival sequence which don't have compatable performance envelopes. The grossed-out Comanche behind a J-3 is a bad situation and might be proceduraly avoidable. I'm all for that if it can be done.

FlyingRon
09-01-2011, 05:46 AM
While it's not published, I've seen a breezy fly an even lower transition than the 90 knot 1000 AGL one and it worked out well.

They did institute a grass runway this year (roughly on the extended centerline of Taxiway Papa down south of the GS antenna, etc..) but I don't think it was in the notam nor were there any special procedures for it. This was done for the few arrivals of old or looks old things that don't have tail wheels (just skids).

Rick Rademacher
09-01-2011, 07:29 AM
I have flown into Oshkosh 12 times in a 59 Cessna 182, 3 times in a 76 Cessna 210 and once in a J-3 Cub. I firmly believe that an approach for aircraft that can’t fly at 90 knots is needed for the safety of all.

Once when flying the tracks in the 182 on a very hazy day, the aircraft in front disappeared as the separation increased. I would not want to come upon a slow aircraft in that situation and then make for Ripon with others doing the same in low visibility.

When flying the Cub in 2003, I was trail in a flight of two cubs. Several aircraft tried to stay behind wallowing around in the air. Then everyone would pass on the right to continue the approach. No one that I saw went back to Ripon.

Remember, Cub speed is 70 to 75 M.P.H and not 103 M.P.H. (90 knots). The Pietenpol I once owned and never flew to Oshkosh was slower than the cub.

So, if an arrival procedure for slow planes can be devised, it should make everyone happy and provide for safer flying for all. More people with slower aircraft might then want to make the pilgrimage to Oshkosh.