Where are all the young pilots?

[Rootski]

Does anyone else read Flying Magazine? Martha Luken's article this month touched on the problem the declining interest in GA, specifically citing airport closures and the decline in student pilot starts, especially among young people. Most poignantly (to me), she writes of a student pilot: "Finally, he completes the test -- and then, what?"

Exactly. I'm 24 years old and just put my first BFR on my private license. I think it's interesting that the term "catch-22" has its roots in aviation, because that's exactly where one exists now. The cost of flying is exorbitant, and the best way to lower my costs would be, after crunching my numbers, to buy an experimental, and share the costs with a partner. This, for a new pilot, can't reasonably be done - almost every financier and insurer wants almost triple the hours I have. Renting might be viable, even comparable to the cost of payments and operating costs, except that money is put toward hours alone, not to a tangible asset from which capital may be eventually recouped. Flying professionally requires a commercial license which requires an instrument rating which requires 30-40 additional hours at most schools to even begin - another $6000-$8000 on top of the $8000 an IFR ticket will cost me. And all of this is on top of college debt. You need a huge amount of money up front to even get to the point where you might be able to fly for cheap!

Is it any wonder that interest in flying is waning? The future predicted pilot shortage isn't due to lack of desire, but lack of means. Martha Luken mentions cost as an afterthought to her blame on iPods, video games, Facebook, the parental coddling of my generation, and the rest of the played-out "damn kids these days!" rhetoric. I don't buy it - because the cost of aviation is making it so I can't buy anything. It's the money, honey.

Focus: how does a young pilot, hungry for hours, manage to build some? And more importantly, how do we revolutionize aviation costs so it doesn't have to be like this anymore?

[hydroguy2]

go find 3-4 others...pony up $5000 each and get you a trainier. either a 150 or cherokee 140, etc. Do your training in it, fly it around the country, build your time. Then sell out your share to a new guy. sharing expenses with others is a economical way to log some hours and build experience.

[malexander]

Does anyone else read Flying Magazine? Martha Luken's article this month touched on the problem the declining interest in GA, specifically citing airport closures and the decline in student pilot starts, especially among young people. Most poignantly (to me), she writes of a student pilot: "Finally, he completes the test -- and then, what?"

Exactly. I'm 24 years old and just put my first BFR on my private license. I think it's interesting that the term "catch-22" has its roots in aviation, because that's exactly where one exists now. The cost of flying is exorbitant, and the best way to lower my costs would be, after crunching my numbers, to buy an experimental, and share the costs with a partner. This, for a new pilot, can't reasonably be done - almost every financier and insurer wants almost triple the hours I have. Renting might be viable, even comparable to the cost of payments and operating costs, except that money is put toward hours alone, not to a tangible asset from which capital may be eventually recouped. Flying professionally requires a commercial license which requires an instrument rating which requires 30-40 additional hours at most schools to even begin - another $6000-$8000 on top of the $8000 an IFR ticket will cost me. And all of this is on top of college debt. You need a huge amount of money up front to even get to the point where you might be able to fly for cheap!

Is it any wonder that interest in flying is waning? The future predicted pilot shortage isn't due to lack of desire, but lack of means. Martha Luken mentions cost as an afterthought to her blame on iPods, video games, Facebook, the parental coddling of my generation, and the rest of the played-out "damn kids these days!" rhetoric. I don't buy it - because the cost of aviation is making it so I can't buy anything. It's the money, honey.

Focus: how does a young pilot, hungry for hours, manage to build some? And more importantly, how do we revolutionize aviation costs so it doesn't have to be like this anymore?



100% spot on. I've been saying this for years.

[Racegunz]

Careful, (leans over and whispers) "there are others on this forum that feel if you don't have the means, then you don't belong in the aviator's community"
You know after WWII the number of pilots was huge and planes were still expensive, but alot were sold to working class ex-military pilots. What's the difference now? you may ask. The regs, the insurance drama, and the endless line of people all sticking their hand in your pocket along the way that weren't there 60-70 years ago. I'm relatively new to aviation (2009) and there is no way it is going to get any better any time soon because aviators are our own worst enemy. I (working class electrician) just don't fit in to the local EAA chapters and pilots, all either wealthy business men or retired folks who worked for companies in the day that paid well.
Want my advice? buy an unfinished (but well documented...very important!) project and build your own, be self insured (that's called assuming responsibility) and fly the heck out of it and have a blast!

[kmacht]

So why are there only old folks hanging out at the airport and very few younger people. It is a simple matter of time vs money.

The 20's: Either during college or maybe even right before you have all sorts of free time but very little money. Paying for school, books, beer, girls, etc tends to take up what little money you might be making working for minimum wage. Some are able to scrape up enough to get their license but then learn that once you have it you are still paying $100+ an hour just to go bounce around the pattern ever few weekends and loose interest.

The 30s: You are in your first real job out of college and finally making some money. Unforturnatly you are now getting married, buying a house, and having kids. When you get some free time you rarely have the money to go flying and when you are able to save up some money you are suddenly hit with a home repair, doctors visit for your kid, or some other unexpected expense. If you are lucky you aren't up to your eyeballs in college debet.

The 40s: Your kid is getting older and more self sufficient. You are also starting to make better money at your job. Unfortunatly most people are now heavily into their job trying to climb the corporate ladder spending 60+ hours a week working. The little free time you do have on the weekends is usually spent at kids soccer games, working on the house, etc. Your bank account is growing but there is no time to go spend it on flying.

The 50's: That kid you had back in your 30's is now ready for college. Things are probably slowing down for you career wise as you reach a comfortable level and can start envisioning retirement. You have lots of free time now but all that money you saved is suddenly paying for a $30,000 a year college tutition and anything else left over is going towards retirement.

The 60's: Your kid has graduated and is living on their own, you have a small wad of cash saved and you are retired. You can finally afford to buy a small plane and spend the days at the airport. It has only taken 40 years to get there.

The 70's: Unfortuantly you just failed your medical and are now relegated to hanging around the airport hoping to get a ride with someone just like back in your 20's.



Keith

[martymayes]

Focus: how does a young pilot, hungry for hours, manage to build some? And more importantly, how do we revolutionize aviation costs so it doesn't have to be like this anymore?


Rootski, I was wondering the same thing back in the '70's when I learned how to fly. While the $ numbers were smaller, flying was relatively expensive. The regulations back then were more restrictive, which made it difficult and costly to earn advanced ratings. Sure, if you fly enough, the hourly cost of owning a plane becomes less than renting. But at that point, you'll need a healthy aviation budget regardless. The tangible asset argument for owning a plane is weak as there is very little capital tied up in a small light plane. And right now, it won't go UP in value, more likely it will depreciate even more. To paraphrase the Clinton political quote "It's the operating cost stupid!"

Back then, to fly a much as I could, I rented the least expensive airplane I could find. Old, no fancy paint, interior or avionics. On another forum, a guy was complaining that all rentals at his airport are ragged out antiques. Well geez, if you want to rent a fancy new plane, rental cost goes up! For him that is not a factor so apparently, not everyone shares your concern about costs. He would rather pay more and have all the blinking lights, moving maps, etc.

The decline in pilot activity is more complicated than finances. When MS Flight Simulator first came out, I was at an aviation trade show. Kids were crowded around the "simulator" flying booth and not so many looking at the real airplanes. I think that underscores much of the problem. Why put forth all the effort required with real airplanes when you can just sit at home and simulate? Much easier, low operating costs and it provides instant gratification.

[Joe LaMantia]

Good Topic!,

Lots of interesting comments, I think hydroguy2 has a good idea. I got my license 20 years ago in a C-150 that belonged to a local club. Flying Clubs are the best way to learn and build time as well as save money. Back in 1992 I put up $3500 in equity and rented the club C-150 for around $25/hr wet. After getting the license I moved up to the club Archer and that rented for around $35/hr wet. In 2000 I moved to Ohio and got my $3500 refunded, by then I had built-up 200 hours in my log book. I flew rentals until retiring and was looking to buy a C-150 as my retirement hobby, but I found another club in 2008. We have a TriPacer and another Archer and best of all only $500 refundable insurance deposit to join. Fuel costs have risen substantially since 1992, the club Archer cost $100/hr wet in today's economy. The downside to club flying is paying the monthly "dues" which cover fixed costs, these costs are equally divided amongst the active club members whether they fly or not. My first club had about 35 members but only 12 to 15 actually flew regularly, so we were "subsidized" by the non-flying club members. If you can't afford to fly a couple of times a month then you won't be saving much over renting.

Saturday I flew our club Archer to a Young Eagles rally at the Sidney Airport (I-12). We had over a 100 kids and at least 8 aircraft flying from noon to 4:00PM, there is still interest in real flying. The kids were all smiles and full of energy...the parents very appreciative of the pilots and organizers, money is the problem and "kmacht" has laid out a good life model in this economy.

Joe
:cool:

[martymayes]

I'd love to find a flying club nearby. Unfortunately, not any options within a 1/2 hr drive.

[rleffler]

I'd love to find a flying club nearby. Unfortunately, not any options within a 1/2 hr drive.


I'm willing to bet that there are, you just don't know about them. I used to be ATC at PTK and belonged to a club. There were quite a few of them at PTK. I know that there is at least on in Ann Arbor, becuase I looked at a Cherokee that they had for sale. I suspect there are others at the other airports on the west side of Detroit. The same for Lansing and Brighton. I don't know your area well, but these should all be under an hour away from Clarklake.

My recommendation is to show up at the local FBO on Saturday morning and ask the old cronnies sitting around drinking coffee if they know of any clubs. I'm sure that they'll be able to rattle the names off the top of there head.

If that doesn't work, find four or five buddies in Clarklake and go out and from a club. It really depends on how bad you want to fly and keep your costs to a minimum.

[holmes540]

When I was 12 I joined the Royal Canadian Air Cadets. After working hard in their program for 5 years I was lucky enough to receive scholarships to spend a summer getting my glider license and then the next summer getting my private license. What a great program! The problem though is hardly anyone that graduates the cadet program with a PPL can afford to keep flying.

During Engineering school I spent most of my summer savings on flying to stay current. After graduating I started working in the Fort McMurray oilsands up here in Alberta to afford to be more serious with aviation. Last month I finally was able to purchase a flying Cassutt for less than 10k that I plan to race at Reno. I'm 23 now.

I found ways to fly as a young person. It isnt easy though. Without lots of luck and some sacrifices I know for sure I wouldnt be where Im at.

[Hangar10]

Want my advice? buy an unfinished (but well documented...very important!) project and build your own, be self insured (that's called assuming responsibility) and fly the heck out of it and have a blast!

I agree... build your own... even if you start from scratch. That is what I am doing. I got my ticket at age 33 (now 40) and went through the same scenario you are talking about a few years back. My wife and I discussed the options, and while we could probably afford to purchase a Cherokee, the insurance and operating expenses would pretty much consume all of our entertainment budget. The only option I could come up with that wouldn't destroy the family budget (or patience) would be to build something. Will I get to fly right now! Well, yes and no. While my project is a long way from being airworthy, I have met a bunch of great people, and I occasionally get offered a ride to breakfast or a fly in. I am having a ball building my own airplane while learning about the people in my community, our chapter and a whole BUNCH of new skills.

Now before you say, "yeah, but a new RV or Zenith could cost $100k!" ... keep in mind that there are a LOT of options that can't always be found in the magazines. For example, I am building a Pietenpol Air Camper... not your thing? Ok, maybe a Wittman Tailwind, or Buttercup, a Fokker D-7, a Hatz biplane, a Parakeet, a Super Ace, or an EAA Bipe, or... well, you get the idea... there are a LOT of options, and many outperform those factory offerings that cost you $100+/hr.

You mention that it is "the money, honey", and you also suggest that all the "damn kids these days" comments is a bunch of rhetoric. While I don't totally disagree with you, I can also see a lot of the instant gratification mentality even among my age group. It blows most people's minds that I would consider a project that might take me 5 or 6 years, or longer. I guess some of us aren't so short sighted. Honestly, many of them are taking notice as my pile of wood starts to look like an airplane, but still, many insist that they just couldn't do it. Well, ok... so they obviously weren't meant to fly either. Perhaps PC solitare is more their speed. My point is, that one way or another it is going to cost you something to fly, whether it be time, money or both (one in the same to me)... just like it would cost you something to be involved with shooting sports, amateur radio, remote control hobbies, bass fishing rig, you name it... big boy toys aren't cheap, but they can be affordable. The building approach (if you have the patience) not only offers you a much better understanding of the craft you plan to pilot, but it also allows you to start/stop as your budget dictates. You would be surprised how much entertainment (and education) your dollar will provide when you are scratch building. Not only that, but the old timers apparently love to help out the younger builders (parts, suggestions, material, etc.)... especially once they see progress being made (i.e. not just talking about it at Saturday coffee... actually making sparks and sawdust).

Perhaps I'm veering all over the place here... my main point is, embrace the spirit of our hobby. Do you think that all of those guys back in the 50s and 60s were buying Cubs, Champs, 150s, etc.? Indeed, some were... just as there are some doing the same today, but take a look at all the homebuilding that was going on during those years. Honestly, with the economy the way it is, I hope that more people will consider homebuilding rather than walk away from our hobby. Speaking of camaraderie, not only will you find it at your local airport or EAA chapter, but if you choose to build, you will likely find a friendly and knowledgeable support group (type group) online. Not only will they become your friends, but they know your project better than anyone else and can help you through any tough spots.

Just an option... one that many choose to pursue rather than fret over the fact that they can't fly three hours a week in the local rental. Let's just say you flew once a week in a $100 rental... that’s $5200/yr. A nice airplane could be built in just a few years on a budget like that, and operating costs shouldn't be anywhere close to that annual figure once you are in the air, yet you could still fly it whenever you want. Look a little further down the road and ask yourself what kind of flying you want to be doing. Do you have a desire to fly professionally? Buckle down and get busy training... now! Do you have a need to fly cross-country? I guess you better figure out a way to accommodate that. Do you just want to fly out for pancakes, go to fly ins and chase your buddies around the clouds? You could do that with a homebuilt... and then just rent that cross country machine when you need it, which in my case is never.

Oh, I also have an 8 year old son (started a little later than my 20s)... but fortunately he LOVE this stuff, and so does my wife.

I don't mean any of this to sound combattive... like I said, I've been right where you are, and I've come to the conclusion that aviation, while not cheap, is still available to everyone with a desire.

How bad do you want to fly? Just some things to consider.

[Joe LaMantia]

WELL SAID HANGER10!

You have the real spirit of EAA and that is exactly what motivated the founder in the first place. As a former Cost Analyst I will tell everyone right up front that you can't cost justify personal flying for pure fun. I justify the activity based on the value I place on it in my own life. I'm looking at 70 candles on my next birthday cake, quite a bonfire! I've been flying as a pilot for 20 years and I "budget" my time and $ so I can log a few hours each month. It get peace of mind in the "low and slow", but still haven't had 2 flight that were identical. If your young, get involved to the level you can afford and don't waste a lot of time and energy on the things you wished you could afford. If you have already acquired a license you know how great you feel in having accomplished that milestone, imagine how it would feel to fly something you spend months or years building!

Joe
:cool:

[martymayes]

I used to be ATC at PTK and belonged to a club. There were quite a few of them at PTK.

Bob, I'm sure of that. You have to remember that Oakland county has more airplanes than the rest of the state combined. I'm tuned in and there really isn't anything available unless I want to drive ~1 hr or more each way.


It really depends on how bad you want to fly and keep your costs to a minimum.

Well, it isn't about me at all. I have a teenage son who is interested in airplanes. I'd like to let him do some regular flying so he can see what it's all about. And I'd like to let him sit in the left seat (but clubs and rentals frown on that suggestion). My wife is also a non-current private pilot who would like to fly on occasion. Since I taught her how to fly initially, I think I'm qualified to work with her on recurrency but similar problems with that plan.

BTW, I was in a club over in AA for about 6 months. Due to a back injury I asked to switch to "non-flying" member status but somehow that didn't happen until my account was drained via monthly dues and other fees. So depending on how you look at it, I either made a big donation to the club or rented a 152 for a few hrs @ ~$225/hr. :(

[tonycondon]

potential young pilots are busy paying school loans, then comes love, marriage, and a baby in a baby carriage, and there isn't much point in trying to get them into flying until they are at least 45.

[rleffler]

Well, it isn't about me at all. I have a teenage son who is interested in airplanes. I'd like to let him do some regular flying so he can see what it's all about. And I'd like to let him sit in the left seat (but clubs and rentals frown on that suggestion). My wife is also a non-current private pilot who would like to fly on occasion. Since I taught her how to fly initially, I think I'm qualified to work with her on recurrency but similar problems with that plan.


Ah, more details..... I would have a different recommendation and something that I did for awhile. I purchased a Cherokee 180 (I'm too large to comfortably fit in the smaller 140). I used that to become current after being idle for 20 years. I then proceeded to get my IFR rating and my 16 year old son proceeded to get his PPL. Becausing of all the training, it was getting flown quite a bit and cost significanlty less than the rentals. Also not dealing with booked rentals and a known maintenance schedule was just icing on the cake. I even invested $20k in the panel and replaced the old loran, broken dme, and ADF with a Garmin 430, Garmin 340, and an engine analyser. I sold it after about 4 years and broke even on my capital expense. Obviously variable expense for maintenance and fuel were basically all it cost me to fly for four years. I did hang onto the Cherokee until I was about 2 years into my RV-10 build. I had to sell it to fund the engine and avionics for the RV-10.

I was lucky in the fact I sold the Cherokee just before the market tanked. I don't know if you can still pull this off with the current economy, but it may be worth the try. The magic number, if you weren't aware is about a 100 hours. If you can fly 100 hours a year, it's usually less expensive to own instead of rent.

[Rootski]

All industries are contingent on demand to survive. If the next generation of pilots can't really come to pass in the current environment, what's to become of GA? I predict that the FAA, insurers, and manufacturers have all accidentally conspired to price themselves out of existence in 20-30 years if something doesn't change.

[Hangar10]

potential young pilots are busy paying school loans, then comes love, marriage, and a baby in a baby carriage, and there isn't much point in trying to get them into flying until they are at least 45.


Join the military... earn a scholarship... or otherwise look for more affordable ways to earn an education or pilots license. Student loans aren't a necessary fact of life. The military isn't for everyone, you say? Well, neither is flying, or a variety of other things in life.

I will stand by this fact... where there is a will, there is a way. It may not be easy or cheap, but nothing worth doing ever is. It is possible to fly... even on a budget. Sure, I too would love to fly a P-51 Mustang... better yet, and F-4 Phantom... but that isn't likely to happen. You have to be realistic, you have to determine your needs//wants/goals, and you have to set realistic expectations based upon those goals. If you have determined that you can't afford to fly that $100 rental, well you are probably right... it's time to survey other options. Several have been offered in this thread.

By the way... love, marriage, baby and carraige... all decisions that have consequences and carry certain obligations. Not everyone chooses to have a family... not everyone chooses to live in a 4000sq ft house... not everyone chooses to drive a brand new car... and not everyone chooses to fly the $100 rental. Choices, we all make them.

[tonycondon]

i agree Mark. I have made decisions and understand that the consequences of those decisions allow me to fly. there was also a fair amount of good and bad luck that led me to where I am.

Fact is most young people (25ish) are just too busy trying to get their heads above water financially to be able to even think about flying as a hobby. 50 year olds (kids out of school) have much more disposable income on average.

[Louis]

I'm just wondering, is it really more expensive for young people to fly than it used to be? I started flying in 1976. The price for a Citabria or C-150 was $24.00/ hour solo and $34.00/hr. dual. I was making between $3.00 and $4.00 an hour working at the airport and restaurant jobs. What is the ratio of cost of aircraft rental to entry level job wages now? ....Louis

[Floatsflyer]

With apologies to Pete Seeger:

Where have all the the young pilots gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the young pilots gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the young pilots gone?
Taken young wives everyone.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

[martymayes]

Fact is most young people (25ish) are just too busy trying to get their heads above water financially to be able to even think about flying as a hobby. 50 year olds (kids out of school) have much more disposable income on average.
I did it different. I owned 3 airplanes between the age of 25-40. I didn't become a dad until age 42. My kids will be teenagers when I hit 60 so owning a plane is tough for now. I think when they leave the nest I'll get an ultralight and fly that until I'm done with flying.


I'm just wondering, is it really more expensive for young people to fly than it used to be? I started flying in 1976. The price for a Citabria or C-150 was $24.00/ hour solo and $34.00/hr. dual. I was making between $3.00 and $4.00 an hour working at the airport and restaurant jobs.
Wow! Is that AK prices? In '76 I was paying $19/hr for dual in a C-150, $17 solo. After I got my private, I found an old C-150 for rent for $12/hr, so I flew it as much as possible. One of my side jobs to get extra $$ for flying was moping floors in a church.

[martymayes]

I was lucky in the fact I sold the Cherokee just before the market tanked. I don't know if you can still pull this off with the current economy, but it may be worth the try. The magic number, if you weren't aware is about a 100 hours. If you can fly 100 hours a year, it's usually less expensive to own instead of rent. Yea, owning a plane isn't in the budget Bob. Or, I guess I should say operating a plane isn't in the budget. Ponying up for the purchase isn't a big deal but with uncertainties, like the price of fuel over the next couple years, have to make due with rental.

[Green Goggles]

Focus: how does a young pilot, hungry for hours, manage to build some? And more importantly, how do we revolutionize aviation costs so it doesn't have to be like this anymore?

Age 27 here. I got my ticket about 4 years ago.
In the past 3.5 years, I have logged just under 200 hours. Almost 100 of those were in my first year. So, yes, I've only averaged a handful of hours per year since my initial training.

I agree, it is difficult to build time. Like so may others, my main barrier is cost. I'd fly every day if funds permitted.
So, right now, my main focus is on my career. When it improves, my flying time will increase. http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/cheers2.gif

[Rootski]

Join the military... earn a scholarship... or otherwise look for more affordable ways to earn an education or pilots license.

I am in the military. Not everyone gets to fly... even the people who really, really want to.

[kmacht]

I'm just wondering, is it really more expensive for young people to fly than it used to be? I started flying in 1976. The price for a Citabria or C-150 was $24.00/ hour solo and $34.00/hr. dual. I was making between $3.00 and $4.00 an hour working at the airport and restaurant jobs. What is the ratio of cost of aircraft rental to entry level job wages now? ....Louis


Well I can answer that. I am assuming that the $3 to $4 an hour was close to minimum wage. Here in CT minimum wage is $8.25 an hour so wages have about doubled since then. If you assume that the plane rental inflation rate was the same as wages then that $34 an hour dual should be double at $78 an hour. The cessna 150 at the danbury airport here in CT rents for $117 an hour plus $50 an hour for instruction for a total rental rate of $167. That is over twice the inflation rate. So the short answer is yes, flying has gotten more expensive, about twice the cost.

Keith

[Hangar10]

I am in the military. Not everyone gets to fly... even the people who really, really want to.

I wasn't suggesting that the military would offer immediate options to fly... my point was more about earning an education, like many have done, and not required the assistance of student loans. I know several people who have taken this route and have afforded themselves the opportunity to fly. If it is not possible right now, start looking down the road and figuring how you might make it possible later on... otherwise you'll be on here next year, and the year after telling the same story about how it isn't possible.

[Hangar10]

Well I can answer that. I am assuming that the $3 to $4 an hour was close to minimum wage. Here in CT minimum wage is $8.25 an hour so wages have about doubled since then. If you assume that the plane rental inflation rate was the same as wages then that $34 an hour dual should be double at $78 an hour. The cessna 150 at the danbury airport here in CT rents for $117 an hour plus $50 an hour for instruction for a total rental rate of $167. That is over twice the inflation rate. So the short answer is yes, flying has gotten more expensive, about twice the cost.

Keith

$50 an hour! Yikes! Hey, here is another option to consider... just like you might consider for a job, cost of living, climate, etc... MOVE! I guess I'm fortunate to live in the boring ol Tulsa, Oklahoma area (I say that jokingly)... but at least there are a lot of airplanes in the sky.

[Green Goggles]

$50 an hour! Yikes! Hey, here is another option to consider... just like you might consider for a job, cost of living, climate, etc... MOVE! I guess I'm fortunate to live in the boring ol Tulsa, Oklahoma area (I say that jokingly)... but at least there are a lot of airplanes in the sky.


I live in a much more boring piece of Oklahoma than Owasso, but you are right, location can help improve costs. Fuel is reasonable, hangar rent is very low, and I can be to the airport in just minutes. If I had to fight with hassels of traffic and increased fuel price/hangar rent in other areas, it would severely hamper my flying.

[Louis]

Wow! Is that AK prices? In '76 I was paying $19/hr for dual in a C-150, $17 solo. After I got my private, I found an old C-150 for rent for $12/hr, so I flew it as much as possible. One of my side jobs to get extra $$ for flying was moping floors in a church.[/QUOTE]

That was in Anchorage during the pipeline construction and pretty much everything was inflated except for my wages! I was lucky I was able to get my private and get started on my commercial when I was still living with my parents. I think rates weren't as high as they could have been. The flying school business was fairly vibrant then and there was a lot of competition. Many of the flight schools were aircraft dealers who were selling new planes like hotcakes. A number of the customers chose to lease their new planes to the schools so there were a lot of new Citabrias, C-150's etc. available for rent. I think Alaska is bound to always be a little high because of the insurance.

When I got my advanced ratings, Alaska had a generous student loan program that covered flight training along with college. I joined the Air National Guard (hoped to fly for them but was too tall) they covered half of my flight training. I think that was the policy of the individual Guard unit, but if you have any inclination toward part time military service you might ask about education benefits if you have a Guard unit near your location. I also got enough aircraft maintenance experience with the Guard to qualify for my A & P.....Louis

[Louis]

Well I can answer that. I am assuming that the $3 to $4 an hour was close to minimum wage. Here in CT minimum wage is $8.25 an hour so wages have about doubled since then. If you assume that the plane rental inflation rate was the same as wages then that $34 an hour dual should be double at $78 an hour. The cessna 150 at the danbury airport here in CT rents for $117 an hour plus $50 an hour for instruction for a total rental rate of $167. That is over twice the inflation rate. So the short answer is yes, flying has gotten more expensive, about twice the cost.

Keith

Thanks. I haven't rented a plane for quite a while and didn't know what the rates were. Things certainly haven't gotten any cheaper! I used to rent a C-172 or Cherokee whenever I visited family in Maine but was probably more than 15 years ago. Family, a house project and an Aeronca Sedan rebuild kind of took away all the loose change that I used to have for airplane rental....Louis

[Dana]

In the late 1970s I was renting a C-150 for $15 and a Stearman for $50 (as a broke college student I didn't fly the Stearman much)... now my $2500 ultralight with its 3.3gph auto gas appetite makes me smile as I listen to my friends talk about the cost of avgas and their multi thousand dollar annuals... :)

[Jeremy Leasor]

I see the rental prices on your side of the pond and don't know whether to laugh or cry, or move to the US. When I learnt to fly in 1976 a C-150 was £14.50 ($23) per hour and a de Havilland Tiger Moth was £16.50 ($26.50). A PA-28 is now between £165 and £205 ($265 to $330, roughly) and a Tiger Moth £250 ($400). With these rates, and with the UK and Europe in deep recession, I am constantly surprised, but cheered, by the number of people, and particularly those in their 20s, from all kinds of different backgrounds, learning to fly.

[Countrygirl2of6]

I agree, Hanger10! Make your plans and work them. I took my first GA flight when I was 16, with my newly licensed 17 old brother as PIC. I was only a passenger in the back of a PA 28-180 but I knew then I wanted to learn to fly. In 1982 I thought we (my husband and I) were finally going to make the plunge because we were financially able, but life has a strange way of changing those plans, so when our General Contractor for our new restaurant was killed, taking his 5 passengers with him, in his twin Beech, it sort of stopped us in our tracks, not because our business wasn't being built. It was built and our business life didn't change an iota. But my "scare" factor was elevated to Red Alert. We had young children and I knew that it wasn't the time. So we waited until another season of life. That worked for us. Am I wishful of 1,000s of hours of experience? You bet, but if you are serious about flying, it will happen when you are ready, and not before. Hang in there, make your plans, look for those opportunities, quit making excuses, and live your personal adventure. Good luck to every serious pilot-in-heart.

[Paul Swanstrom]

No one has mentioned Ultralights as a less expensive way to get into the air which is what we all want to do.
Back in the 80's 90's and untill 2005 when the FAA approved LSA, Ultalight flying brought a lot of pilots into aviation.
Since then however, new ultralight pilots and planes have been nearly impossible to attain because the FAA has eliminated the possibility of getting training in any ultralight plane. Even training in a two place fat ultralight or training UL (that now has to be registered as an LSA,) no instructor could charge for his services becaused it is not a certified aircraft. I blame not only the FAA but also GA pilots who let this happen. We need to encourage all aviation organizations to work to make UL training available as it was before 2005.

[malexander]

No one has mentioned Ultralights as a less expensive way to get into the air which is what we all want to do.
Back in the 80's 90's and untill 2005 when the FAA approved LSA, Ultalight flying brought a lot of pilots into aviation.
Since then however, new ultralight pilots and planes have been nearly impossible to attain because the FAA has eliminated the possibility of getting training in any ultralight plane. Even training in a two place fat ultralight or training UL (that now has to be registered as an LSA,) no instructor could charge for his services becaused it is not a certified aircraft. I blame not only the FAA but also GA pilots who let this happen. We need to encourage all aviation organizations to work to make UL training available as it was before 2005.


I agree with you. I would think there could be a way to "share the costs" and get instruction.

[Skyhook]

It isn't just the expense, not that that alone wouldn't wipe dreams from young skulls, but it is also something insidious; attitude which make young pilots very scarce. I have, over the years, flown hundreds of first-time flyers and what I have seen recently is an alarming unwillingness to actually commit to working towards a pilot's license. Kids seem to just want to zoom their thumbs over buttons on the latest zippy game. Heck, one kid showed up here at the 'port with his dad bubbling with effervescent enthusiasm only to drop completely out of sight. He would not answer phone messages to his cell-- the kid is a junior in HS and well-known 'gamer'.
I have never seen such failure to actually want to get involved. Maybe it's just here.
(BTW, my last three 'inductees are flying professionally for established carriers... one pilots a 747-8 out of Hong Kong..)

[somorris]

I read Martha's article and was similarly affected. There are a lot of problems with GA right now, cost being one of the biggest ones, and it ain't gettin' any better!

[Ryan Hornback]

I am currently 17 years old and working on my PPL. I have personally experienced many of the things that have been talked about onthis thread. I love aviation, and love flying, but I just cannot afford to fly frequently.This then leads to time spent at the beginning of each lesson, reviewing over the past lesson, and more time and money being spent. I have two seasonal jobs,and was going to pursue a part time job, but don’t have time due to schoolwork. I would love to take my lessons ina LSA, but there is not a place to rent these within an hour drive. So for now I will continue lessons at a slowrate, just so I can continue to fly, then in the future hopefully I can takelessons more frequently, and eventually hold a pilot’s certificate.

[Joe LaMantia]

Ryan,
Here's a bit of perspective from an old man, while you may have to "plod" along with your lessons you are doing so at age 17. I got my license at age 50 and am approaching 20 years of flying. Think about how many flying years you will have at age 70. I envy your good fortune to be able to actually start flying at 17! Take pleasure in filling up a log book with hours of memories and lessons learned and re-learned, it's like a savings account, the more you put in the more you get out.

Happy Flying

Joe
:cool:

[vaflier]

I would like to offer food for thought , I used to be in a local flying club and our newest member was much like Ryan, a student with a part time job trying to earn enough to pay for his ticket. We raised our dues $5.00 per month to pay for giving away a free flight hour each meeting. We held a drawing at each meeting to entice the members to come out and participate in the meetings. Someone in the club made the generous gesture to give their free hour to the new guy to help him fly more often. It really became a trend and was a help to the young man who is now a pilot. And a good one at that !. Perhaps we on this board could start something similar to assist the young people who dream of flying. If we all contribute 5 or ten dollars and their are enough of us it could really make a difference for some of the younger dreamers. Perhaps the moderator can create a poll to see how much interest there might be in such an idea. Count me in. What say you ?.???

[Chuck Arnold]

I'm with hydroguy2. Flying will never be "cheap." You can't live under a bridge and fly airplanes. But there are ways of driving down costs so that we mere mortals can fly, although you'll probably have to defer the dream of flying a tricked-out turbo 182 with a G1000 panel. A few years back I bought a Grumman Yankee (with the ugliest paint job on any airplane in America) for less than the cost of most new cars. Because hangars in my area go for several hundred dollars a month (when they're even available) I keep the airplane outside and shovel off snow in the winter. I asked around and found an excellent mechanic who does good, honest annuals and not total restorations like some shops. And I pay more for my car insurance than I do to insure the airplane. If funding is a challenge, I really like the idea of finding two or three or four other like-minded pilots and going in on a Cherokee 140, a Cessna 152, or similar simple trainer. It can be done. It may require trimming expenses in some other area of life, but I truly believe that for most people, flying is an attainable goal. I love owning an airplane, and I'll bet I fly a lot more often than a lot of pilots tossing money at rentals.

[malexander]

I have to agree with Chuck. If you want to fly, or any other hobby for that matter, you can find a way to afford it.
The broke folks that drink & smoke will find money for booze & cigarettes even if they don't have grocery money.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

To continue the theme...

It's about PASSION. The "fire in your belly" stuff. The energy that keeps you focused on the goal.
When others are out there dropping hundred dollar bills on a date with a totally incompatible ( but gorgeous) person you are working on your goal... the gal or guy who loves what you do will show up at places where you are. Way too many people are so hungry for companionship that they ignore their dreams and are frustrated with the relationship.
I like the outdoors - hiking, camping and such, I also have spent several decades, in hobby and profession, in sailing. I would go the Sierra Singles or join a singles sailing club. I always had a good time and finding a companion along the way was a bonus.
One area about flying - it's a commonly lonely hobby. EAA chapters are there and fill that gap for some but in general a lonely pursuit. Finding the PASSION can be a challenge..... we are social creatures.
So back to my ramble. As was noted - if you really desire something, anything that is in your ability, then you can find the way. You just need to be a bit more creative in this time and this economy.
IMHO - the declining pilot populations... too many (easy) distractions eating away at time and money. The feeling that we need to buy or do things to be "alright" with the world. Two income households just to keep up. Families - all members have completely different interests. And Finally "REALITY TV" !

[C 172 Pilot]

When I learned to fly, early 1980's; the going wage (for a great job) was $10/Hr.
A Cessna 150 was $25/Hr. wet.
A Cessna 172 was $35/Hr. wet.
My instructor wanted $5/Hr. to instruct.

Now I'm making better than twice that, but the same airplane now rents for $125 to $140 /Hr. wet.
I assume an instructor is now makng $40/Hr.?
My choices have only been to keep working (moving for the job) and buying a house.
I was out of avaition for 17 years, a lot has changed. I can say with total honesty I have less disposable income now then when I made half of what I'm making now. Somehow the value of my wages has actually gone down, even with me making more money...

I want to fly but I can't make it stretch anymore to fit!
Mike
C 172 Pilot

[hydroguy2]

I think I've posted these numbers before but couldn't find them so here goes.

In 1979, I took my first lesson at Strand Aviation In Kalispell, MT. A C-150 w/CFI was $21/hr, cheap by todays standards but I was a high school senior making $2.15/hr. I had a girl friend and a 12yr old truck, so short on cash. It took about 12hrs of work if I wanted to fly for an hour. I logged a whole 0.5hrs back then.

Fast forward 26yrs after kids and career. Jan 2005, I had the same girlfriend(ok wife now) but a 6yr old truck and I took my 2nd lesson. At the local flying club a C-150 was $36/hr wet and a CFI was $35/hr so ~$70/hr. I make enough to cover those costs and get my license.....but lets see how a high school student fares. At the same job I was doing the pay is $6.50/hr. Son of a gun looks like it'll take about 12-15 hrs of work to cover those flying costs. young people these days have the same issues of cars & friends but also have cell phones and many more easy distractions to take up their time and money.

Costs have gone up some, but percentage-wise not too far off. I still feel it's about will, to make the effort and sacrifice to learn to fly.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

http://www.youngeagles.org/programs/scholarships/

[prasmussen]

I have a Champ and a teenage daughter. We have been flying and have done some on-the-edge-of-aerobatic maneuvers. She wasn't frightened or sick, she was bored. I, on the other hand, loved it. Perhaps we have to acknowledge that flying as fast as a car drives on the freeway, a few thousand feet in the air a few miles from home just isn't that exciting for our children. And therefore not worth the investment of their time and resources. We live on an airfield and I would have given her the Champ when she turned 16 if she wanted it. Go figure.

[Old Goat]

Have you thought of Light Sport, i.e., no physical required, at least until you have more disposable income? Old Goat
************************************************** ***********************

Does anyone else read Flying Magazine? Martha Luken's article this month touched on the problem the declining interest in GA, specifically citing airport closures and the decline in student pilot starts, especially among young people. Most poignantly (to me), she writes of a student pilot: "Finally, he completes the test -- and then, what?"

Exactly. I'm 24 years old and just put my first BFR on my private license. I think it's interesting that the term "catch-22" has its roots in aviation, because that's exactly where one exists now. The cost of flying is exorbitant, and the best way to lower my costs would be, after crunching my numbers, to buy an experimental, and share the costs with a partner. This, for a new pilot, can't reasonably be done - almost every financier and insurer wants almost triple the hours I have. Renting might be viable, even comparable to the cost of payments and operating costs, except that money is put toward hours alone, not to a tangible asset from which capital may be eventually recouped. Flying professionally requires a commercial license which requires an instrument rating which requires 30-40 additional hours at most schools to even begin - another $6000-$8000 on top of the $8000 an IFR ticket will cost me. And all of this is on top of college debt. You need a huge amount of money up front to even get to the point where you might be able to fly for cheap!

Is it any wonder that interest in flying is waning? The future predicted pilot shortage isn't due to lack of desire, but lack of means. Martha Luken mentions cost as an afterthought to her blame on iPods, video games, Facebook, the parental coddling of my generation, and the rest of the played-out "damn kids these days!" rhetoric. I don't buy it - because the cost of aviation is making it so I can't buy anything. It's the money, honey.

Focus: how does a young pilot, hungry for hours, manage to build some? And more importantly, how do we revolutionize aviation costs so it doesn't have to be like this anymore?

[Treetop_Flyer]

Being an early-30-something owner/pilot, I'll throw my $0.02 in the ring here. Your question jumps around between flying as a career versus flying for fun. I think you have to settle on which you want to do first. If flying for a career, then you have to look at fight training as college tuition and an investment in your future just as any college degree is. If you're looking at flying just for fun, it's a different story. I'll address flying for fun and tell you how I got where I am.

I've always wanted to fly ever since I can remember. In high school, we had a local flight school but I never seemed to have the combination of time and money to get started. When I began college, I found out our school had an Airway Science minor and the local flight school was overseen by the university. As such...scholarships could be used for flight training. Having got a 31 on my ACT and spent the better part of my senior year of high school applying for scholarships, my education was essentially paid for by my scholarships. I applied for an additional $500 aviation scholarship offered by a local gentleman and alumnus and got it. That got me started flying. Private ground school was part of my standard 18-credit course load and I also got instrument ground, flight safety, and turbine ground out of the way as part of my credits. I had a job at the university in our mechanical testing lab and was working 10-15 hours/week during the school year and 40 hours/week in the summer. This allowed me to keep funding my flying (I think we were about $96/hour wet including instructor at the time).

Sadly, I didn't finish before I got out of school, but I had an engineering degree that landed me a good paying job at a local company. The summer of graduation I got married and bought a house. This put my flying on hold for about 4 years. In 2006, I decided to get serious about finishing up and, with the support of my wife, I got my PP-ASEL in November 2006.

We occasionally rented the next year or two, but renting just wasn't as fun and tended to be a hassle when it came to wanting to go fly "on a whim". In 2008, the economy tanked and I once again set aside flying for a couple years. Then in 2010, when things started to come back in my industry, I started looking at cost of ownership. I realized for about $13K - $16k per year, I could easily buy a decent aircraft, insure it, hangar it, keep it maintained, and go fly for 50-100 hours each year. I ran the numbers by my wife and got the OK to buy. We found a beautifully restored 1957 Piper TriPacer that we purchased and financed for 10 years.

My costs are as follows:
1) Plane Payment: $390/month
2) Insurance: $125/month
3) Hangar: $100/month
4) Runway Fees: $60/month
5) Annual: $250/month (I budget for $3K/yr just in case)
6) Fuel: $400/month (gives me roughly 8-9 hrs/month)
----------------------------------------------------
Total: $1,325/month or $15,900/yr

Some key things that my wife and I have done to allow us to afford this are.

1) We both work and both have college degrees from four-year instituitions.
2) We do not, nor will we ever, have children. <---This one is huge, IMHO!!!
3) We have a modest house in the Midwest where cost of living is reasonable.
4) Our single car we own is 8 years old.
5) We don't really "go out" on the weekends as we're content to either fly or hang at home.
6) Our only other vices are LEGO and Games (Board/Video).
7) We have a written budget that we review and update each month.

Now, if you can find one or two other people to go in with you on this, then you can cut costs significantly. Even with two people you halve the payment, insurance, hangar, and annual. There is huge savings to be realized there. Additionally, you can find an aircraft cheaper than what we bought. I know of a great flying TriPacer for sale in Wisconsin that is a solid bird with a mid-time engine for around $22K. That's about half what I paid for mine. Then again...it doesn't have any of the goodies I have in mine. :)

Anyway, the bottom line is that it is certainly doable for the average person. The key is to truly figure out where you are spending money. Kids are a huge drain based on what my friends tell me. I guess I'm lucky that neither my wife nor I want them. :) I'm content to spoil my niece and take Young Eagles flying each month.

Feel free to message me if you have more questions.

- Dave -

[kmacht]

My costs are as follows:
1) Plane Payment: $390/month
2) Insurance: $125/month
3) Hangar: $100/month
4) Runway Fees: $60/month
5) Annual: $250/month (I budget for $3K/yr just in case)
6) Fuel: $400/month (gives me roughly 8-9 hrs/month)
----------------------------------------------------
Total: $1,325/month or $15,900/yr

- Dave -

While $1,325 a month sounds reasonable to you, to most people it doesn't. Around here that is a mortgage payment for a small to mid size house. If you tell someone you are paying the same to own and fly a plane as you are to own a house it doesn't sound very affordable to them.

There is no doubt that it can be done. You just have to decide where you would rather spend your money. It is just that most people don't want to give up the expensive cable package, cell phone, and eating out in order to go flying 2 to 3 hours per month.

Keith

[Treetop_Flyer]

While $1,325 a month sounds reasonable to you, to most people it doesn't. Around here that is a mortgage payment for a small to mid size house. If you tell someone you are paying the same to own and fly a plane as you are to own a house it doesn't sound very affordable to them.

There is no doubt that it can be done. You just have to decide where you would rather spend your money. It is just that most people don't want to give up the expensive cable package, cell phone, and eating out in order to go flying 2 to 3 hours per month.

Keith

I can certainly understand that and I think this is where pairing up with one or two other like-minded people could be a great way to get it done. I know AOPA is working on some programs to try and connect pilots (or prospective pilots) with each other to achieve these types of relationships. I think this is also where joining an EAA local chapter can be beneficial.

Additionally, I bought a pretty trick aircraft. You could easily halve the payment (or eliminate it entirely) by buying a TriPacer in the $25K range. The $250/month for annual is also a bit high for a TriPacer. Most of my fellow TriPacer owners get by at about $1000/yr. I just budget $3k to be safe in case I want to upgrade something. My insurance is also higher than most because of the high hull value. And fuel is based on 100 hrs/yr. So, if we cut a lot of that down, you could do it for around $950/month which is certainly reasonable, especially if you don't have a car payment or kids.

As you mentioned, the cable, mobile, and eating out are all places where we toss money. There are many others as well. As you say, it all comes down to priorities. If you really want to fly, you can do it. I know plenty of middle class people who spend $1K a month on hunting/fishing/etc. gear and trips. It all comes down to what you want to do with your time and we certainly can't do it all. One thing I think everyone in our nation would benefit from is a budget analysis to really see where their cash is going. Keep a journal for 3-6 months of everything you spend money on and see where your money is going. It can be very eye-opening.

- Dave -