Stewart Systems for Painting Aircraft

[Vetteman89]

Has anyone tried the Stewart System for painting? I have heard positives and negatives about it and would like to learn more from someone who has had any type of experience with it.

[Matt Gonitzke]

I'm in the middle of painting a glider with it, and I'm pretty happy with it so far. What kind of aircraft are you painting? My glider has a little bit of everything (wood, fiberglass, metal, and fabric) so I've had to prep all of those different surfaces. Any specific questions? Here are the tails that I finished the other night. Overall I'm very pleased with how they turned out. There are a few flaws, but all my fault.
2475

[Jim Heffelfinger]

I have some experience with all the under top coat products. In three words : Easy, easy , easy. Love the "no headache" smell.
Not to top coat stage yet.
Jim

[Vetteman89]

It is a Glasair Sportsman 2 plus 2, so composite fueselage and the wings and tailfeathers are aluminum.

Are you guys spraying it with HVLP, and if so what is your air supply set-up like?

[Tom Downey]

Be very careful with a true HVLP ( the ones that use a garden hose and true low pressure) they do not atomize the paint well enough to get the finish right.


the rest of the system is great, plus they now have an (eco-cyrl) catalyzed polyurethane, vary much like the old DuPont Imron. except it is water born, and uses no thinner, and is haz-mat shipping free.

[Kyle Boatright]

Be very careful with a true HVLP ( the ones that use a garden hose and true low pressure) they do not atomize the paint well enough to get the finish right.


the rest of the system is great, plus they now have an (eco-cyrl) catalyzed polyurethane, vary much like the old DuPont Imron. except it is water born, and uses no thinner, and is haz-mat shipping free.

Tom, how many airplanes have you finished with Stewart?

Everything I read says the undercoats go on very well, but the top coat material is much more finicky than other products.

[Matt Gonitzke]

I'd agree that it's more finicky than other paint I've painted with, i.e. auto paint, but once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A good water trap is extremely important...if there is any condensation getting into the gun, it'll thin the paint more and make a mess. Don't ask how I know this.

[Kyle Boatright]

I'd agree that it's more finicky than other paint I've painted with, i.e. auto paint, but once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A good water trap is extremely important...if there is any condensation getting into the gun, it'll thin the paint more and make a mess. Don't ask how I know this.

Other than the glider, what is your experience with Stuarts? What type surfaces have you painted - fabric, metal, composite?

[Tom Downey]

Tom, how many airplanes have you finished with Stewart?

1 complete, and bits and pieces of 4 more

Everything I read says the undercoats go on very well, but the top coat material is much more finicky than other products.

The system is a very easy system to work, and it doesn't stink, plus there are no haz-mat charges on shipping.
The lack of a thinner and haz-mat charges make it the cheapest system, It has it's advantages.

I still prefer the Airtech system, it is faster, and faster is better when you are working by the clock hours for your customers. There is no brushing with Airtech, once the fabric is on, 3 cross coats of primer, sand once and shoot top coat. yer done. :)

[Matt Gonitzke]

Other than the glider, what is your experience with Stuarts? What type surfaces have you painted - fabric, metal, composite?

This is it so far. Right now most of what I have done is fabric...there were some small metal parts, too. The wings are mostly wood, which has been varnished, primed with Stewart's primer, and will be painted over the next couple of days.

[Mike Switzer]

Is one of these systems easier to use if you are doing a 2 color paint job, or all they all pretty much the same?

[Tom Downey]

Is one of these systems easier to use if you are doing a 2 color paint job, or all they all pretty much the same?

Two color paint jobs are simply a masking task.

[Mike Switzer]

Two color paint jobs are simply a masking task.

So, basically just like a car. I was under the impression for some reason that when working with fabric the color was mixed in with the dope, but I don't know who told me that.

[Tom Downey]

So, basically just like a car. I was under the impression for some reason that when working with fabric the color was mixed in with the dope, but I don't know who told me that.

Placing a second coat of DOPE will soften the first coat, but it should not mix with it unless agitated by brushing or other means.

Many restorers will mask off and paint the trim first, then protect the trim with masking and pain the rest of the aircraft. this results in 1 layer of DOPE or paint on the entire aircraft and no ridges where the color changes.

[turtle]

Unless you have horseshoes up where the sun don't shine, stay far away from EkoPoly. I've used it a few times, all with disastrous results. It looks good for a while than it goes to hell. The factory always seems to have some tips and tricks that they "just found out" or an instruction revision after you get to the end of your project and it's too late. There doesn't seem to be any consistency in the failures. It works for a few people, yet others have problems even though they followed the instructions. Many guesses of what could have gone wrong, but no definite answers. You pay your money and take your chances. If it fails, they will usually replace the product, minus the fill, glue, fabric, blood, sweat and tears.

It's a shame, the rest of the system is really good. They need to offer alternatives, such as Randthane, on the STC until they work the bugs out of their top coat. Tweaking the procedure after customer failures is not acceptable.

Here's a few photos of one experience following the instructions to the letter. All the fabric had to be cut off and a more proven system used. Only the tail feathers were done, but imagine if you spent years building an airplane and had to recover the whole thing within three years.

2488248924902491

[steve]

Stacey David had the rep from PPG on his Gearz car show (rerun) earlier today. Looks like water based paint is coming on strong if the major players are getting in on the action.

[WLIU]

Water borne finishes are being worked on for automotive and furniture manufacturing use. The EPA is driving it and the paint companies are actually working pretty hard on it.

The problem is that the maturity of the technology is not yet to the point where a guy in a hangar or home shop is guaranteed good results. Many folks get the right combination of temperature, gun settings, and mix, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that just as many people have problems. So if you like being an early adopter, then go for it. If you want to absolutely know that you will be successful, stick with the older paint systems.

I can report that with no previous experience, to paint some aluminum, I bought a mask, HVLP conversion gun, and the PPG Delfleet materials (rugged truck paint), listened to the folks at my local auto paint supply, read the directions, followed the directions, and had a great result. The folks at the auto paint place really wanted to be helpful and answered all of my questions. It is not rocket science. They have high school kids doing it. Just take care of your mask and don't breath the stuff. Never thought that I would own 2000 grit sandpaper. When the experts say that prep is everything, listen.

So translating that into fabric covering, the current top of the line appears to be Cooper Superflite. Aviat uses it on all of their new Pitts and Husky's. Polyfiber has worked well on a LOT of homebuilt airplanes. Having owned and maintained a butyrate dope airplane and had it recovered with Superflite, I will suggest that traditional dope finishes are obsolete unless you are trying to do a museum level restoration of an antique.

I will suggest that you might pull out the issues of Sport Aviation that list the award winners at OSH and see what the finishes used were. That popularity poll might offer insight into what works for the most builders.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Mike Switzer]

Water borne finishes are being worked on for automotive and furniture manufacturing use. The EPA is driving it and the paint companies are actually working pretty hard on it.

One of the local body shops advertises in all their TV commercials that they only use "environmentally responsible water borne paint". I don't know anyone that has had their car painted there that is happy.

[Jim Heffelfinger]

The pictures, from my perspective, appear to have some form of contamination between the undercoat and topcoat. Since conventional solvents are not being used to get past any surface "oils" the surface prep is even more important.
In the supplied photos - what type of spray gun was used? How long between fill coats and top coats and what was the environment during that time?
Having seen the display aircraft that Stewart uses for their "booth" I was impressed. I attended two work shops on Stewart products - one observing and the other hands on. I was pleased with the ease of application

[turtle]

The pictures, from my perspective, appear to have some form of contamination between the undercoat and topcoat. Since conventional solvents are not being used to get past any surface "oils" the surface prep is even more important.
In the supplied photos - what type of spray gun was used? How long between fill coats and top coats and what was the environment during that time?
Having seen the display aircraft that Stewart uses for their "booth" I was impressed. I attended two work shops on Stewart products - one observing and the other hands on. I was pleased with the ease of application

A Sharpe HLVP with a 1.3 tip. Time between last fill coats and top was about 24 hours. Done in a heated shop set up for painting with temperature 72-85f and about 50% humidity. Surfaces sanded and cleaned per the instructions prior to top coating. There were filters and a dryer on the air line. Everything was so clean there wasn't even a dust nib when it was done.

The failure started as a few very small cracks. Then a heavy rainstorm caused it all to lift. The tubing had three coats of epoxy but was already starting to rust due to the porous fill coats allowing moisture to penetrate the fabric.

I attended their seminar at Oshkosh this summer and there is nothing I would have done differently. That's the problem. Nobody knows the secret to make the system work consistently. Two people could apply it the same way with different results. It could be something as minor as a 2% difference in humidity that makes it fall apart. Considering homebuilders seldom have the exact same conditions every time they reach for the spray gun, and probably much different than that in the Stewart shop, EkoPoly is a very poor choice.

[Kyle Boatright]

The pictures, from my perspective, appear to have some form of contamination between the undercoat and topcoat. Since conventional solvents are not being used to get past any surface "oils" the surface prep is even more important.
In the supplied photos - what type of spray gun was used? How long between fill coats and top coats and what was the environment during that time?
Having seen the display aircraft that Stewart uses for their "booth" I was impressed. I attended two work shops on Stewart products - one observing and the other hands on. I was pleased with the ease of application

I talk with the Stewart guys at almost every Osh and SnF and am tempted by their products. However, even they have what I'll call mystery problems from time to time. I was talking with the fellow who helps them and posts a lot on the SuperCub forum and asked about a couple of the covered samples he had on display at Osh two years ago and he said something like "Yeah, I had to do the yellow one twice. I painted it and it went to absolute crap, so I tore the covering off and redid it." When something like that happens to one of the factory guys and he doesn't have a good explanation, that worries me.

[Tom Downey]

I talk with the Stewart guys at almost every Osh and SnF and am tempted by their products.
you should get a trial kit and play with it.

note that you can call them any work day ad talk to them.

[WLIU]

The builders who have gone before you are the best trial kit that you can have if you are trying to assess the quality and repeatability of a paint process. Sometimes a trial kit is usefull to assess your own aptitude for being successful, but that is a different issue than what is being discussed here....

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Kyle Boatright]

you should get a trial kit and play with it.

note that you can call them any work day ad talk to them.

I do have (sort of) the trial kit. I bought enough stuff (including color coat) to cover a rudder - start to finish. Probably a project for a nice weekend when I don't have anything else to do. I'm expecting one of those in about 25 years. ;-)

[Tom Downey]

The builders who have gone before you are the best trial kit that you can have if you are trying to assess the quality and repeatability of a paint process. Sometimes a trial kit is usefull to assess your own aptitude for being successful, but that is a different issue than what is being discussed here....

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

The original topic was ......

""Has anyone tried the Stewart System for painting? I have heard positives and negatives about it and would like to learn more from someone who has had any type of experience with it.""

the best method of knowing that is try it see what ya think..

[bruceflys]

I recently finished a SeaRey (fabric) project. The Stewart system through the primer-filler was fabulous. The topcoat drove me crazy. I followed the company's videos religiously, even buying the gun that they recommend, and painted in a heated and air conditioned hangar. The problem was wide variation in results. Same gun, same environment, same operator, same technique.....the horizontal stabilizers came out very nice, the left wing looks good, the right wing is an embarrassment, etc. Now, all of this is appearance and pride, or lack thereof. The paint has coated the fabric and everyone including the DAR thinks that it is airworthy. But I'll never use it again. With only 35 hrs on the airplane, it's too soon to tell about longevity.

Bruce

[Vetteman89]

Their newest top coat is EcoCrylic, a two part system. Anyone tried it?

[jamesmil]

be very carefull with stawarts glue as it will release and turn to goo in a very short time if auto gas gets on it.

[Tom Downey]

Their newest top coat is EcoCrylic, a two part system. Anyone tried it?

Yes Don sent me a sample, it seems as good as the old DuPont Imron. but a little slower to dry.

Their 1 part sandable primer is the best primer I have ever found. thins with water, cleans up with soap and water, and what you don't use goes back into the can.

[Matt Gonitzke]

Their 1 part sandable primer is the best primer I have ever found. thins with water, cleans up with soap and water, and what you don't use goes back into the can.

Not to mention it dries in minutes. My only complaint about that is it can make it hard to clean the paint gun if you don't dunk it in a bucket of water immediately after spraying.

[Vetteman89]

Just thinking outloud here....I got a little scared off by some of the posts, especially the one with pictures of the paint peeling off. But that wasn't with the new Ecocrylic. Ecocrylic has only been available for a short time, so it is too early to tell if it will hold up well.

I would really like to go with this water-bourne for safety, clean-up, and no solvent smell. But then there is the risk of it peeling off. Hmmm. what to do, what to do.

[Hatz]

I have been painting aircraft for 30 years, today we stripped the Stewart primer off a project and ordered Polyfiber. The ekopoly went on nice then it started to do all kinds of crazy stuff. When it dried it looked like a orange peeled mess that resembled the moon surface. Everything was clean and dry but some how a smooth finish turned into a mess over night. I called and ordered another qt sanded the fabric and painted again. This time the finish was ok. I sprayed some metal parts with there metal paint and the same thing happened. I am done this company needs to stop selling, figure out the problems and start again. My shop has lost over a week on this job. When I called them it was like the guy opened up a book of excuses. This stuff will never be in my shop again.

[Tom Downey]

I just finished my 170 wings with Ecofil and it looks great.
3463 3465

[Bill]

This year's Copperstate Grand Champion, an Escapade, was painted with Stewart Systems paint. It is SUPERB! I've seen the airplane close up and tried to find a flaw in the paint. I failed. Obviously, if you take care in painting, you get excellent results. if not...

Read about it here and enjoy the pictures as well as the writeup: http://www.copperstate.org/csj/index.php/component/content/article/7-news/192-2013-grand-champion

[Matt Gonitzke]

If you have 30 years of experience spraying paint, I can see why the Stewart Systems paint would give you trouble...it sprays very differently from auto paint and the Stits products, but if you follow the directions, it works. I've also found the people there to be extremely helpful when I called searching for solutions to issues I was having. Every time it wasn't working right I was doing something wrong, and they were able to guide me in the right direction.
3466

[1600vw]

A friend painted his airplane using this method. He used fresh air supply and wore covering over his clothes. After painting three of the wings on his bi-plane he started to break out in a rash. He had to stop painting for a short. He did not paint these all in one day but over a few days. He setup an old camper and made a paint booth out of it. Put in a couple fresh air vents with filters and all. Then he had a fresh air supply he wore that he breathed through. He believes what little got on his skin after time built up in his system and he became allergic.
He lurks on this board and just maybe he will chime in here. I only post this to worn those painting to take extra care and caution when using any of these paints systems. It may not bother you but maybe it does your friend or buddy.
His airplane turned out top notch. One of the best I have seen. If you saw this airplane you would call it an award winner. I hope MORGAN chimes in and posts some pics.....Lets see your Airplane Morgan. He is building a Zenith 750 now and you should see that. He loves to build and at the rate he is building he will be building a lot of airplanes, and doing it alone and working a full time job, amazing.
I told him to build airplanes Minus Firewall forward, and instruments and put them up for sale, people would jump on them. He could not build them fast enough.

Tony

[tonycondon]

i wonder if it was all the unnecessary protective clothing that he was wearing that he is allergic to...

[Kyle Boatright]

i wonder if it was all the unnecessary protective clothing that he was wearing that he is allergic to...

The Stewart guys have told me to wear the same PPE you'd wear with any other paint. Even if they didn't, who'd want paint overspray all over himself or herself anyway?

[1600vw]

i wonder if it was all the unnecessary protective clothing that he was wearing that he is allergic to...

He used what any other painter would use. Unnecessary you say.

[1600vw]

I just got off the phone with Morgan. he said he would chime in on here sometime but not tonight, he was going to bed. But he did confirm he did have a reaction when using this system after a while of use.

[1600vw]

http://morganrussell750build.wordpress.com/

[mcmurphy]

I am actually getting to the point on my Thatcher CX4 build that I need to start thinking about paint. Dave Thatcher, the designer of the CX4, just finished the prototype of his two seat CX5 and painted it with PPG Concept paint in red, white and black. Does anyone have experience using this paint? What would be the best paint or system for someone who's painting experience is limited to using rattle cans to paint model airplanes? I'm not looking for an award-winning paint job, but I do want it to be the best I can do.

[1600vw]

I found this and its cheap. Check it out if I was painting I would use something like this.

http://www.sonerai.net/articles/forced-air-breathing-apparatus-for-painting.pdf

As for award winning and rattle cans. I painted a pickup with rattle cans and won more then one first place trophy with it. The last First place trophy was help at the Nationals in Peoria IL in 2007. I placed first in my Class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRhDrt87ojY

Tony

[Sam Buchanan]

I am actually getting to the point on my Thatcher CX4 build that I need to start thinking about paint. Dave Thatcher, the designer of the CX4, just finished the prototype of his two seat CX5 and painted it with PPG Concept paint in red, white and black. Does anyone have experience using this paint? What would be the best paint or system for someone who's painting experience is limited to using rattle cans to paint model airplanes? I'm not looking for an award-winning paint job, but I do want it to be the best I can do.

PPG Concept paint is a very high quality automotive finish. I have used it on several projects, one of which was my RV-6 which was painted.....red, white and black. :)

Here are my notes:

http://thervjournal.com/paint1.html

3535

I used single stage which is the simplest to apply and lends itself very nicely to color sanding and buffing. It is, however, expensive as are other high quality urethane finish systems. And it is import to use the system for the entire finish process.

[WLIU]

PPG has a line of paint that is a little less expensive and still is really good called Delfleet. I have had really good luck with it.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS