What should EAA look like?

[WeaverJ3Cub]

So we've seen a lot of comments recently about the direction of EAA in general, the leadership (Rod Hightower in particular) and AirVenture. As Hal and other EAA web personnel have pointed out, much of this is a healthy thing and helps the organization understand its members better. It is a healthy organization/company that critiques itself, and that is what we have here…..

But throughout all this, as a new EAA member, I've been very confused about what exactly the current EAA is being measured against. Is it a non-existent utopia? The EAA of 25 years ago? Remember, I wasn't even around back then. It took me awhile on these forums before I even knew who the "Paul and Tom" were who were continually being referred to. :) But I do understand homebuilding, the appeal and attraction of building one's own airplane, and the unique pursuit that bonds "EAAers" together. That's why you and I are members.

So, I want to pose a question to anyone who cares to answer. If you could be in complete control of the Experimental Aircraft Association, what would your organization look like? Particularly, in these categories:


• What would you change about the general focus of the organization?

•*What would you change about SportAviation?

•*What would you change about AirVenture?

•*What (if anything) would you change about the Chapters and their relationship to "the mothership?"


(As you respond, please realize that homebuilt/Experimental aircraft come in all shapes, sizes and prices, from Pietenpol to Lancair, and that the newest avionics and expensive upgrades, while certainly out of some people's reach, are a part of many people's homebuilding experience.)


So—even though I may have worn out my welcome here—please give me and your fellow-members your thoughts. It will help me as I try to better understand the organization that I just joined, and I think it will help all of us come to more agreement and realize what we really have in common…..a love of aviation. Because after all, isn't that what this is about? If it were just about building a mechanical "device" for yourself, we could find a lot cheaper and faster ways to do that. But we all love to fly, and that's what makes us different.

—Samuel

EAA# 1088648
AOPA# 07075650
IAC# 436315

[Marc_CYBW]

I have been flying since 2001 and an EAA member since 2008 or so, having joined just before my first AirVenture visit. I am also a COPA and AOPA member. And have recently discovered Forums (although I used to read the usenet stuff many years ago).

If I were to create a mandate or vision for EAA it would be to support pilots, owners and builders (individuals and manufacturers) whose primary focus is flying for the sheer pleasure of it. So I would leave EAA pretty well the same as it is right now and leave COPA and AOPA to lobby government and represent the broader aviation industry.

As for AirVenture, I find its a great mix of old and new but would probably try to dial down (not eliminate) its militaristic bent, but that may just be a Canadian POV. And leave the modern military acrobatics to other shows so as not to dilute the current show.

Marc

[danielfindling]

I like this thread.

EAA should look like an organization:
1. Where the members share a passion for aviation;
2. that focuses on limiting un-necessary governmental regulation of the industry by improving safety;
3. that preserves the history of aviation;
4. that promotes innovation in aviation;
5. that lobbies for all aspects of general aviation - with a primary focus on innovation, homebuilts, warbirds and vintage airplanes and a secondary focus on light production aircraft, followed by Caravan types, small business jets etc.;
6. that fosters and encourages participation in aviation;
7. that nurtures an aviation community;
8. that caters to all socio-economic levels without noticeable distinctions - e.g. an organization of apparent "inclusion";

Airventure should look . . .
1. Look less like a State fair; e.g. move the ferris wheel to Kidventure - Who's opening for 2013? The Thomson Twins or Vanilla Ice? Ice, Ice baby . . . (Oh wait, that was the State Fair)
2. Move KidVenture to the main grounds; - more kids there anyway!
3. Better highlight distinct areas (e.g. the Warbird area and Vintage areas were well defined, the trade show area seemed to spill everywhere and the Homebuilt area and others were a mess!)
4. [IDEA] How about putting an innovative homebuilt airplane in the main square in lieu or in addition to a big jet?
5. [THOUGHT] Develop, preserve and improve the culture of EAA. (Friendly, clean, fun, a yodel, camping under a wing . . .)
6. A place to see things first or that you can't see anywhere else! (As an aside, the airshow needs improvement!)

Daniel

[Mike Switzer]

I have been reading old issues of Sport Aviation (starting from the beginning)

Starting in some of the very early issues, this statement was included:

"The EAA is a non-profit organization formed by interested individuals to promote homebuilding and the development of any type aircraft through experimentation and home engineering."

I am a relatively new member & the statement above is precisely why I joined the organization, and where my aviation interests lie.

I think some people, including current management would be well served to read these early publications.

[Kyle Boatright]

Worn out your welcome? Hardly.

What i will say is that virtually every EAA'er has slightly different goals, wishes, and objectives. Talk to 100 people and you'll get 99 opinions.

My belief is that the overall focus needs to move back towards supporting the mission of EAA, which is hands-on aviation dedicated to the construction, restoration, and operation of sport aircraft - experimentals, antiques, warbirds, etc. plus the encouragement of others to participate. It needs to move away from the overly commercial feel it has developed. Also, I will say that growth for the sake of growth is a mistake. You only grow if the growth fulfills the organization's intent, which (again) is hands-on aviation.

The things which really gripe me are related to creeping commercialism. For instance, Sport Aviation used to be full of helpful information for builders and restorers. Now, a substantial portion of the content is "pay for play" advertorials, where it is apparent that some organization made an advertising deal with EAA that included a feature story or favorable product review on a quid-pro-quo basis. Also, SA has never been column driven. I don't care to read the opinions of the same people month after month - EAA is about its members, not the magazine editor, his opinion, or the opinions of a slate of columnists.

Back to the commercialism. The chalets are an outstanding example. Prime display space was taken from the members and sold to the highest bidder.

I understand that money makes the world go around, but there comes a point where the additonal revenue isn't worth what we're sacrificing. Put the chalets somewhere else - not *the* prime real-estate. Pimping products in the magazine that is supposed to be a benefit for the members *isn't* a member benefit, it is a sell-out.

The chapter relationship to EAA is tenuous other than the "don't do" list. I vacillate on what I'd like to see happen there.

As to the don't do list, EAA has really pulled its head into the shell on the flying front. Little or no support for regional fly-in's, chapters aren't allowed to form flying clubs, sport racing had the rug pulled out from under it (and later replaced). We fly little airplanes. EAA needs to embrace that instead of distancing itself.

One other thing I'll say is that Airventure is a tremendous event. All of the "traditional" content is there, you may just have to walk away from show center to find it. My only real gripe with the event is the Chalets. Otherwise, I can't complain about the facilities, the food pricing, the camping pricing - any of it. Sure, it could be improved, but it is just fine the way it is.

My $0.02.

[JimRice85]

I'd like to see the Regional Fly-ins come back strong. The SWRFI in Texas was killed because of EAAs withdrawal and refusal to sponsor and insure. I knew the head folks and when EAA pulled the plug, so did they because without EAA sanctioning, it was financially impossible.

I loved going to the old Tullahoma, TN EAA fly-in.

I agree that the chase for the almighty dollar has changed the organization I grew up around. Attended my first Oshkosh in 1977 and went semi-regularly until 1994. Army and family life got in the way This year was my first time since 94 and in some ways I was very pleasantly surprised. The chalets were a real shock though. I couldn't fathom taking away display aircraft parking to provide for the high rollers.

I think Sport Aviation really needs to get back to basics. There has been way too much fast glass and high dollar focus in years past and not enough "meat" for the average guy (and gal).

[Christopher Ingram]

I think the EAA should be about EXPERIMENTAL AVIATION, or they should change their name and quit misleading us.

Sport Aviation should go back to the way it used to be, where we all couldn't wait to get home, open the mailbox then sit dowm and read cover to cover. There is very little in there anymore for a low budget homebuilder. Is anyone else tired of reading about glass panel installations in every aircraft? We get it already.

Airventure- all I would change is the prices. It shouldn't cost a family hundreds of dollars just to get in the gate.

Chapters- There should be more emphasis on new chapters and new members, there should be more activity among these chapters to promote homebuilding of ALL TYPES, I hear constantly about people attending meetings and being turned away because they aren't building the same type of airplane as the "core" group, and being talked down to about their choice of aircraft.

[Mike Switzer]

Chapters- There should be more emphasis on new chapters and new members, there should be more activity among these chapters to promote homebuilding of ALL TYPES, I hear constantly about people attending meetings and being turned away because they aren't building the same type of airplane as the "core" group, and being talked down to about their choice of aircraft.

Some chapters don't even have ANY building to speak of. One of the reasons I'm not a chapter member is because the only one anywhere close with anyone building anything larger than a powered hang glider is over an hour's drive away. Anyone in the local chapter I have anything in common with is already a member of our flying club.

[Aaron Novak]

Homebuilding,
I think what we are seeing is a perpetuating cycle. EAA reduces the exposure and support ( ill get to that ) of homebuilding to the aviation world, thus fewer people get motivated to actually homebuild. With fewer homebuilders, EAA does not see the need to devote a high percentage of its work towards that group, and so reduces the investment and exposure again.......just a downward cycle. I believe the original goal was to support, and grow homebuilding, pulling people into the hobby and growing that segment through its gaining popularity ( due to the exposure and support of the EAA at the time ). What I see now is not growing a segment anymore, but gravitating to a different larger segment that already exists. So what would I like to see?? Well honestly I would like to see the EAA revamp the homebuilt and workshops area, promote it, and help the volunteers inspire people to actually build again. What should ( in my mind) be a center of the convention ( not THE but A center ) has been neglected in lieu of fany exhibitor structures and the like. Much like Young Eagles is a tool to get people into aviation, the workshops/homebuilt area is a tool to get people into homebuilding.

[CarlOrton]

Really like Daniel's take on it, above; no need to reiterate his content.

Personally, I've only been a member since 2005, so I missed out on a lot of the legacy "spirit" that I've come to know only thru the postings here.

I really don't know how to shape the future of EAA. What the long-timers want cannot be fulfilled anymore, IMHO. Take away the kit aircraft, and I think the current plans/scratchbuilders could fit in one forum pavillion. Not knocking kits - I've built one and am currently flying off my Phase I hours. Just saying that the hours available for family members to spend crafting individual parts has been overtaken by life's other priorities.

It's not the money that keeps folks from homebuilding, it's time more than anything.

The idea of chalets etc., didn't bother me at first. I considered it to be in the same vein as the other sponsorships. If I don't want to see 'em, I don't look at 'em, and also don't let them degrade my overall fun time at AV.

However, I remember reading about the good old days where the "it" folks in aviation, whether it was the Rutans, Harrison Ford, or others, would just be strolling around the grounds. If they were noticed, they were left alone. We were all "one." Maybe they longed for some isolation even back then, but the number one reason they were there was to be enveloped by aviation - and that trumped their desire for isolation, in my rose-colored-glasses utopian view of things.

I guess the bottom line of my post is that I really don't have much of a problem with the sponsorships and quest for cash; it's only that we will no longer have that which made it "special" or "different" from other large events. AirVenture has gone the way of 8-year old kids walking over to a friends house, 4 blocks away, in the dark. But it's still one heckuva place to be the last week in July.

[PaulDow]

Back about 10 years ago, Paul tried to start the Sport Aviation Association. It's purpose seemed to address almost all of the criticisms brought up here. It was supposed to promote flying and building for the fun and education of it. It was supposed to have very little of the business, politics and general extra headaches that comes with the huge organization.
Unfortunately, it didn't reach critical mass to keep it going. You can find information on it over at the Wayback Machine at www.archive.org. Search for www.sportaviation.org, and select some older versions before that domain was repurposed.
Maybe there's now enough interest to try again.

[steveinindy]

What i will say is that virtually every EAA'er has slightly different goals, wishes, and objectives. Talk to 100 people and you'll get 99 opinions.

The one time I've knowingly been in the same room with Tom Poberezny I recall him making a comment to the effect of "You show me two EAA members who agree completely and I'll show you two folks who just started talking to one another a few minutes back".


Chapters- There should be more emphasis on new chapters and new members, there should be more activity among these chapters to promote homebuilding of ALL TYPES, I hear constantly about people attending meetings and being turned away because they aren't building the same type of airplane as the "core" group, and being talked down to about their choice of aircraft.

Agreed 100%. That was a HUGE problem around here at a couple of chapters when people realized I wasn't interested in the latest designs out of Van's or a Sonex (nothing wrong from an aerodynamic standpoint or performance standpoint, just not my type of airplane and lacking some things I am looking for). You tell them you want to design and scratch build and the looks you get are priceless.


Some chapters don't even have ANY building to speak of.

There are a couple of those around here too. What is funny is that both of those clubs were the first to offer me just about anything short of a donor kidney when I told them I was doing a scratch build. The ones with active builds kind of shrugged and went back to their kits. It is worth noting that out of all of the membership of the clubs around here I am familiar with, I am the first person doing a 'clean sheet' design and build in as long as anyone can recall.


8. that caters to all socio-economic levels without noticeable distinctions - e.g. an organization of apparent "inclusion";

Even as one of the "unwashed masses", I've never experienced any difference between the way I was treated 20 or so years ago when I was a kid hanging around the local chapter back home and today. Even with the "chalets" (at least the NBAA one last year, since personal issues at the last minute kept me from attending this year), I was welcomed in, handed free drinks and told to enjoy the air conditioning even though I'm not their target clientele. Hell, the only way I was able to see Fifi while she was moving on the ground was because of that vantage point on the last day because of all of the crowds blocking the view from any other perspective. Yeah, there is some catering to the "rich" side of the hobby but I've never gotten a sense of exclusion. Any rational request I've made has been granted and usually, I've gotten more than I asked for.


I think what we are seeing is a perpetuating cycle. EAA reduces the exposure and support ( ill get to that ) of homebuilding to the aviation world, thus fewer people get motivated to actually homebuild. With fewer homebuilders, EAA does not see the need to devote a high percentage of its work towards that group, and so reduces the investment and exposure again.......just a downward cycle.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "positive feedback loop", i.e. something that accentuates itself as it goes along. A small change results in an increase in the magnitude of the change in the next "cycle" (A produces more of B which in turn produces even more A and so on). Sorry....don't mean to sound snide. Just thought I might point out the term for what you're describing. Hopefully no offense is taken.



Maybe there's now enough interest to try again.

There's some talk about it over on Homebuilt Airplanes. http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/hangar-flying/13042-sport-aviation-association.html

[martymayes]

Back about 10 years ago, Paul tried to start the Sport Aviation Association. It's purpose seemed to address almost all of the criticisms brought up here.
Maybe there's now enough interest to try again.

Already in the works. Ed Fisher is the guy in charge. Membership is enjoying quite a surge, I just joined last week.

[Kyle Boatright]

Already in the works. Ed Fisher is the guy in charge. Membership is enjoying quite a surge, I just joined last week.

Does the SAA have a web presence? My google-fu hasn't turned up anything...

[Mike Switzer]

Does the SAA have a web presence? My google-fu hasn't turned up anything...

I heard a rumor about this a few months ago but I was never able to find anything either.

[martymayes]

No website but I hear it's in the works. In the meantime, to get on the mailing list, send an email with your name and mailing address to Ed Fisher at raceairdesigns@hotmail.com

In about 2 weeks you'll get an acknowlegement letter with membership number and some SAA decals.


There's a website somewhere that has old (10 yr) SAA magazines archived. I'll look for that and report back.

[Mike Switzer]

I can see a problem with the name - if people thing it is just Sport Pilot stuff. I know I wouldn't even look at it if that is what I thought it was.

[BeagleOne]

What I would change about AirVenture:

1. NO SMOKING ANYWHERE ON THE GROUNDS!!! I've seen smoking right next to airplanes and butts all over the place. If people need to smoke, they're never so far from a gate that they can't step outside the grounds and smoke.

2. Ditch the chalets on the flight line.

3. Ditch the new speaker system. It was too loud, the sound from those speakers was slightly out of synch with the "traditional" speakers, and the speakers themselves blocked part of the flightline view.

4. Ditch the music over the loudspeakers unless it's part of the airshow. The best Oshkosh soundtrack is airplane noise.

5. Ditch the food stands at Phillips 66 Plaza on Saturday. They look tacky and are unnecessary. The food choices have really improved over the past few years and there are plenty of options without the Saturday stands. Keep that space for airplanes.

6. Continue the new tram system. Much better than the old routes and having to change trams more often. I didn't get a chance to ride the Warbird-area "tour" tram but definitely will next year; great idea!

7. Who are all of the people riding around on golf carts? Do they really all need them? It seems like there is a LOT more vehicular traffic than in the past and I'm wondering why.

8. Keep the Honor Flight arrival if possible. What a moving tribute to the veterans, with the band, the people saluting, the families waiting, etc. Just please keep the security people under control. I had a very unpleasant encounter with a security goon who literally pushed between a veteran and his waiting family, and have written to the feedback address about it...and gotten a response. Hopefully the culprit won't be there next year.

9. Show "Airplane!" at the Fly-In Theater every year! :)

[Jim Rosenow]

Does the SAA have a web presence? My google-fu hasn't turned up anything...

FYI..... http://www.sportaviationassociation.org/index.html I just found it myself.

[ercoupe]

I love going to Oshkosh and look forward each year. I have been attending since 1978 or 1979. I have only missed a couple of those years and plan on returning next year. I was disappointed to see the chalets. They used up at least 50 or more prime parking places. I agree with the previous writer that talked about walking the grounds with the "celebrities. They didn't act like that around the airplanes. I enjoyed walking and visiting with the likes of Mike Melville, Chuck Yeager, Burt and Dick Rutan and their families. I see all that going away with the chalets. Please don't go that route. If attendees don't want to walk around with the rest of us I'm not sure we want them there.

On another note. Did you see the Red Chinese Communist flag in one of the chalets? I'm not sure that was appropriate.. Do you think the Flag of the United States of America is flying at events in Red China?

I think the chalets are the beginning of the end of Oshkosh as we like it. Please do away with them.

[ercoupe]

Having just read Beagle above I say Ditto, Ditto Ditto I think there should be one tram right behind the other. I'll volunteer to drive or ride shotgun. More destinations.

[pmulwitz]

I just finished building a kit plane and am nearly finished phase I flight test. EAA has provided a great deal of support both directly answering specific questions and by providing local chapter environment to help me along. I would leave most of it the way it is - to the extent that is possible. I find the publications and especially the publication archives very valuable. Unlike the wannabe publications (Kitplanes, etc.) the articles are full of actual real and useful information rather than pipe dreams and just plain lies.

AirVenture is another case entirely. I didn't go there this year but did the previous two years. I enjoyed being in the same place with all those airplanes, vendors, and people. However, everything about the location left me feeling like I had just been run over by a steam roller. The weather is awful - either incredibly hot and humid or stormy. The hotels in the area overcharged more than any I have ever seen. Transportation to and from the area was poor at best since it is in the middle of nowhere. I don't have any complaints about the actual management and fees for the event itself. I just wish it were somewhere more comfortable and reasonably priced.

[Richard Warner]

I am a life member, #22313, and joined back in the sixties. My first Oshkosh was in 1975. I went for several years in a row, skipped a couple of years, went again in 1982 and 1986. My last one was in 1996. It has gotten just too expensive and too commercial for me to ever go back. I remember back then, the only folks allowed on the flight line were members of EAA who had aviation credentials, that is pilot or mechanic certificates, and members of their family and their guests. Members of other nationally recognized aviation organizations were also allowed, but couldn't bring guests. I did volunteer work several of those years. They didn't sell memberships at the entrance gate to every Tom, Dick, & Harry who wanted to get on the flightline. This was to help protect the airplanes on display from damage caused by folks that knew nothing about airplanes. I saw this happen when a lady let her kid climb on the tail of a Pitts at a local fly-in/airshow. When I said something to her she told me where to go. All those folks had access to all the display tents and to the factory builts and partially completed "homebuilts" that were on display behind the fence. The Chalets are a huge mistake in my opinion and may be the beginning of the end of EAA for the little guy. Just another reason for me not to go back. I guess I will just continue my every other year or so trek to Sun 'n Fun. At least its a lot closer and less expensive to attend. I'd love to see Oshkosh return to the way it was in the 70's. The new magazine looks like almost any other slick news stand aviation magazine full of ads and not much else. I used to save them, have years of them starting in 1962. Now, with the new ones I sometimes don't even open them. I guess I'll start a subscription to Kit Planes. Of course I won't quit EAA......my dues are paid for life.

[gmatejcek]

Kyle, Richard, Beagle, you all hit the nail on the head on all counts. What I would add is that under Paul, EAA was about people and a shared love, that of aviation and aviators. When he stepped down it became very much more about money. Now the bean counters have worked the supply and demand curves, revenues are maxed, and display space in the kit manufacturer's area, main buildings, the out door displays, and the fly market have unused space due to the little guys having been priced out of the game. Once upon a time, Rutan was a little guy, Van was a little guy, Niebauer was a little guy, and EAA fought for the little guy. Now it seems to fight for the money. As the core (the 'littlest' guy) gets disenfranchised, the whole thing starts to unravel. There seems to be growing discontent among the already short staffed volunteer group at the convention, as well.

For my own part, building a plane and flying it it Oshkosh had been a life-long dream. Having watched the evolution over 35 conventions or so, especially the removal of the flight line fence, I have a hard time seeing me fly my plane up there. The thought of blissfully and unconcernedly leaving my plane amid a sea of other hand crafted gems to be examined, critiqued, and enjoyed by like-minded aviators has been replaced by the vision of uncontrolled kids clambering on it, obese guys leaning on it, and a buckle on a gargantuan purse putting a huge scrape in the wing tip. These are not paranoid fantasies on my part, but rather things I've witnessed with my own two eyes since the fence came down. And designated smoking areas? My camping buddy and I each ratted out individuals smoking on the flight line this year.

Clearly, via both the the magazine and our annual convention, the organization's core values and direction have been lost to pandering. The question becomes will the membership and backbone of the organization re-ground and re-educate the leadership as to what we are really about, or will they just quietly take their resources elsewhere while EAA withers on the vine?

[Rconc]

Paul Ed Fisher has started up the SAA again. The web site is www.sportaviationassociation.org (http://www.sportaviationassociation.org/).
Back about 10 years ago, Paul tried to start the Sport Aviation Association. It's purpose seemed to address almost all of the criticisms brought up here. It was supposed to promote flying and building for the fun and education of it. It was supposed to have very little of the business, politics and general extra headaches that comes with the huge organization.
Unfortunately, it didn't reach critical mass to keep it going. You can find information on it over at the Wayback Machine at www.archive.org (http://www.archive.org). Search for www.sportaviation.org (http://www.sportaviation.org), and select some older versions before that domain was repurposed.
Maybe there's now enough interest to try again.

[kmisegades@bellsouth.net]

That's an easy answer - it should look like Paul Poberezny's other organization, the Sport Aviation Association, http://www.sportaviationassociation.org/

Homebuilding Hall of Fame member Ed Fisher is bringing the SAA back, with Paul's blessing.

Keep the EAA as the owner of the largest G.A. trade show in the U.S., AirVenture.

The SAA will take care of the rest - helping people build and fly aircraft safely, and having fun, the reason the EAA was formed and the reason nearly everyone in my chapter joined years ago.

[WeaverJ3Cub]

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2012/08/15/a-suggestion-for-keeping-the-magic-of-airventure-alive/

"All this brings me to my suggestion: We need to find a way to pair up a dissatisfied EAA member attendee with a first time pilot attendee. To see AirVenture through the eyes of an excited first-timer may be just the juice an old-timer might need. I’m not trying to dismiss a legitimate complaint or concern, but sometimes we are so close to something we fail to see the bigger picture."

[Antique Tower]

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2012/08/15/a-suggestion-for-keeping-the-magic-of-airventure-alive/

"All this brings me to my suggestion: We need to find a way to pair up a dissatisfied EAA member attendee with a first time pilot attendee. To see AirVenture through the eyes of an excited first-timer may be just the juice an old-timer might need. I’m not trying to dismiss a legitimate complaint or concern, but sometimes we are so close to something we fail to see the bigger picture."

Now THAT is a good idea. Just leave off the "dissatisfied" part. Why not pair up folks for the benefit of the newbies? Like a travel guide. One old dude / dudette could lead ten or so new folks around for a day......