converting an lsa to a ga

[chadjensen]

I have searched the net for several days and am either typing the wrong search terms or there is no info on it.I just ordered plans for the sonerai 2. Now it makes more sense once I get the craft built to certify it as an lsa to get hours and spend less in training and insturmentation to get flying. But once I am able to upgrade avionics and get flight hours I would like to recertify the aircraft as a general aviation plane so I can fly at night and during ifr.Now I know you can't downgrade to lsa but is it possible to upgrade?ThanksChad

[Bill Berson]

Here is my take:
The Sonerai will need an amateur built airworthiness certificate. You as a plans builder cannot choose to certify any plans built aircraft as an LSA (actually called SLSA or ELSA) nor would you want to. Only the manufacturer can do that.
But if the aircraft has a certificated gross weight less than 1320 and speeds are within the rule, it can be flown with just a sport pilot certificate (for day and VFR) even if it has IFR equipment. (as far as I know, others can advise)

p.s. At first, I thought you were the Chad Jensen from EAA staff, but since this is your first post, I suspect that you are someone else with the same name. This could be confusing.

[martymayes]

I'm confused. Are you planning on training in the airplane you build?

I second what Bill said. You will 'certify' the airplane as experimental/amateur-built, period. If it meets LSA performance specs, you can fly it with sport pilot cert.

[chadjensen]

Ok I just found out the plans designer does not list the plans as lsa compliant. Stall speeds too high. If I did order a compliant set of plans and did not put avionics in before my airworthiness I can still fly it as an lsa. Now let's say I get my ticket for sport pilot and get 100 hours in a year. In this time I am saving my mony and I buy an avionics package so I can fly my aircraft at night and during ifr. But I can't legally because my aircraft is only lsa rated. So can I get my aircraft recertificated and get my night and ifr hours in my aircraft and fly my aircraft as a general aviation with no night or ifr restrictions?

[martymayes]

But I can't legally because my aircraft is only lsa rated. So can I get my aircraft recertificated and get my night and ifr hours in my aircraft and fly my aircraft as a general aviation with no night or ifr restrictions?

If you build a plane from plans, it will be 'certifed' as experimental/amateur-built, period. Won't be any "LSA only" restrictions. Nothing to recertify.

[chadjensen]

Ok great news. The only limiting factor would be my certifications. I could use my plane for any conditions so long as its equipped and I'm certified. Sweet.

[Joda]

Having built and flown a Sonerai II myself, I would say that it is very difficult to keep a Sonerai's performance within the LSA envelope. It's just too danged FAST! Even without wheel pants installed mine would easily cruise at 150+ mph, which is well above the limit for LSA. The weight is okay (the Sonerai II gross weight is 950 lbs) and the stall speed is OK (at least it was on my airplane) but the maximum speed is too great. If you need a plane that meets the LSA definition, I would suggest you look for something other than a Sonerai II.

Regarding certification, there is nothing to stop you from equipping an amateur-built aircraft for flight at night or under IFR. These operations are allowed by the amateur-built operating limitations so long as the aircraft meets the minimum equipment requirements of 14 CFR 91.205. And even if the aircraft does not meet these requirements when it is originally certificated, the equipment may be installed later. There would be no need to re-certificate the aircraft.

[Bob Dingley]

Ok I just found out the plans designer does not list the plans as lsa compliant. Stall speeds too high. If I did order a compliant set of plans and did not put avionics in before my airworthiness I can still fly it as an lsa. Now let's say I get my ticket for sport pilot and get 100 hours in a year. In this time I am saving my mony and I buy an avionics package so I can fly my aircraft at night and during ifr. But I can't legally because my aircraft is only lsa rated. So can I get my aircraft recertificated and get my night and ifr hours in my aircraft and fly my aircraft as a general aviation with no night or ifr restrictions?

I'm confused. I looked at the Great Plains web site http://www.greatplainsas.com/sonerai.html and they list stall speeds for the Sonerai 1 &11 as 45 MPH. The Sonerai 11 Stretch as 50 MPH. Thats less than the Sport Pilot limit of 45 KNOTS. They do claim that it will do over 140 MPH wide open. Maybe you could dumb down the prop. (use a climb prop)

[Mike M]

hmm. sounds like a lot of apples being compared to pineapples. AS I UNDERSTAND THE REGS, when an EAB is issued an airworthiness certificate, the manufacturer (builder) sets the max gross weight and determines the operating limits through paperwork, then flight tests to confirm the aircraft performs safely. the max speed for an LSA is set at the manufacturer's (the aircraft builder, not the engine maker) allowed max continuous power. along with other limitations for operation, a manufacturer may paperwork-limit the continuous power to limit the speed to stay in LSA. the aircraft need not be equipped for ifr or night when test flown, since avionics and lights are not major modifications as defined in PT 43. if it fits LSA, it's an LSA, which may or may not be equipped for night or IFR even though a light-sport pilot can't fly it that way legally. but a private pilot could, if appropriately rated. so build it like you want, test it to see if it fits, tweak it if it doesn't, retest, repeat as necessary. swear it complies, fly it as allowed by regulation. what did i miss?

[chadjensen]

Ok so what if I put a derated prop on it to get the speed down. Then once I get my private pilots cert. I change my prop over to increase my top speed and am over the max speed of lsa? Also on the stall speed issue I was getting my info from this forum. http://sonerai.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stretch&action=display&thread=199ThanksChad

[Bill Berson]

I don't think the Sonerai is the optimal design for IFR for several reasons, in my opinion. Weight is always an issue to deal with on a small homebuilt.
Second, does a sport racer have the needed flight stability for IFR?

[chadjensen]

Fair enough. Can someone recommend a low wing, folding wing,towable, plans built that would be good for ifr? That can start life with lsa specs and later be upgraded later?

[Sam Buchanan]

Fair enough. Can someone recommend a low wing, folding wing,towable, plans built that would be good for ifr? That can start life with lsa specs and later be upgraded later?

Chad, if your mission profile is indeed as you describe above, I think you would be best served by considering an upgrade to a different aircraft when you are ready for IFR flight. LSA, folding wings, towable, etc are not usually associated with clouds, weather, night, IFR. The reasons are many and valid. There may be an aircraft or two out there that meets your requirements (I'm drawing a blank at the moment) but they will be the exception rather than the norm. If such an aircraft could be found, it most likely would need to be flown by an instrument-rated pilot that is very proficient and experienced with flying sub-optimal aircraft in IMC.

I suggest you consider many of the nice aircraft that are readily available for VFR LSA flight, then when you have acquired your instrument rating and have solidified your needs for a more advanced aircraft, trade the LSA craft for one that is suited for IFR flight. This path will not only promote your satisfaction with the aircraft but also contribute to your personal longevity. :)

[Eric Witherspoon]

I was thinking about what Sam was thinking. What you list are conflicting requirements.

Airplanes that meet LSA requirements are wing-loading-limited. This is part of what gets them the low stall speed.

For a stable IFR platform, you're going to want higher wing loading. Not very practical to change that. Buy a PA-28-161 when it's time.

Though there was 1 IFR-equipped LSA being shown at Oshkosh. I'd have to go back through my pictures to remember which one. But I would consider its practical use to be mostly as a fair-weather trainer rather than something you would really want to be stuck with in the clouds. It also doesn't meet your criteria of plans-built (it's only available in ready-to-fly) or folding wing.

[Richard Warner]

Maximum gross takeoff weight—1,320 lbs, or 1,430 lbs for seaplanes.
Maximum stall speed—51 mph (45 knots) CAS
Maximum speed in level flight with maximum continuous power (Vh)—138 mph (120 knots) CAS

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill, Chad. YOU will be the manufacturer. YOU, as the manufacturer will say what it's gross weight is and what the speed is at maximum continuous power. As long as YOU DON'T SAY it weighs more than 1320 lbs. and it doesn't go faster than 120 KNOTS, who is going to prove you wrong? Best of luck building your "dream". The first flight will be worth all of the sweat, blood, headaches and dollars it cost you.

[chadjensen]

So to recap, lsa is a set of specifications that an aircraft has that a sport pilot can fly. There are some aircraft certificated by the manufacturer to conform to those specs, but any aircraft(certificated lsa, eab,general aviation) that meets those specs can be flown by a sport pilot under sport pilot rules. And I can train under the hood for ifr in a sonerai but it is far better to avoid real world ifr in a sonerai as the plane is too light. Oh and we have an imposter chad jensen running around. :-DThanks for the awesome helpChad

[flyrgreen]

I see that someone has pretty much got the right info, but for clarity: A plane that meets the regs of LSA (weight, speed, etc.) can be flown IFR & night if properly equipped. It's the pilot certification that must be upgraded from Sport to Private. No paperwork needs to be done regarding the plane's category, nor CAN it be done.

Also, you can't build a plane and register it as LSA or ELSA (may be wrong on the 2nd one). Registered as E/AB and flown under Sport regs. Yes, you would slow the thing down until Private ticket. A note here--- Sport rules do not say 120 kts max speed; they say 120 kts at MAX CONTINUOUS RPM. However wound up for an hour you or manufacturer are comfortable with running your engine, the resulting speed must be 120 kts or less.