Something Missing

[MNWORD]

I have read the other forums and I agree that something just did not feel like the previous years. I cant put my finger on it.
Was it the temperature?I don't know! cant control that. Some say the economy, which I do agree is a major issue in aviation and personal finances,and right now we cant really control that. It seems that there is a different attitude by EAA than previous years.
It appeared to be a carnival attitude especially when you ordered your tickets and paid for your camping over the phone with extremeTix. I came into the flight line and saw the Ferris wheel and the bouncy cage and it hit me! I realized it is just a carnival with airplanes. I came to Camp Scholler on Saturday before the show and left the following Sunday, and it was not as crowded as previous years. There are a few things that need improvement but as a whole I think it was just OK. I think we (EAA) needs to focus on what works and what doesn't work and in my opinion we do not need to be a carnival.
I think the trams seemed to work very well this year and I think that would be a major improvement if they used they same type of vehicles in the camp ground vs the buses. There seemed to be a lot of pedestrian and ATV/scooter traffic this year in the camp and it just a matter of time before there is a serious accident. I think there needs to be speed bumps to slow down some these ATVs and additional walk ways along the roads and that includes Lindbergh, it will take away a few camp sites along the road but it needs to be done. I also think there need to be more camp sites with at least electricity. it appeared that the were a lot of rental trailers ( as they all looked alike) in the Full Hook-up sites. Whats with that? I went to the Life Members dinner on Tuesday and the meal was a disappointment when compared with previous years according to other life and century club members but the program was very very good. It was nice to see Paul and Audrey and listen to the one on one with Paul about EAA history. I do enjoy the airshow but in moderation, you could record the last few years shows and its the same stuff. I would like to see more Military/war birds and a Lot more BIG airplane demos and have that included in the airshow and posted in a schedule. I think the show needs to actually start earlier in the day as it does interfere with evening activities with people preparing meals and trying to wind down a bit in the early evening. I could say I am not going to come back, but that is not true. I will come back, I just hope the old EAA comes back and they leave the carnival rides in the shopping center parking lots.

M.N. Wordell
ATP,A/P, F/E
EAA 779745

[Bill]

I came into the flight line and saw the Ferris wheel and the bouncy cage...


Are you serious? Was there really a Ferris wheel at Airventure this year:confused:

In the thirty years or so that I've been an EAA Member, the concept of a Ferris wheel at the EAA Convention has never entered my mind. I am incredulous. I've gone to Oshkosh for over twenty years or so to see and enjoy airplanes.

Thank god for the regional fly-ins such as CopperState that haven't transmogrified to this heightened plane of existence yet (is EAA now being lead by Caligula?). So its to those regional fly-ins that I'll be going in the future. No carnivals for me when I'm intent on enjoying airplanes. I'll leave the rides for the state and county fairs where they belong (and I can enjoy the cream puffs at reasonable prices).

[Bob Meder]

Yes, Ford put up a small Ferris wheel well away from the flight line. So?

[Jim Heffelfinger]

So, EAA did not put up a Ferris wheel, nor an amusement ride vendor. Just a HUGE underwriter of the Spirit of Aviation in their exhibitor area. Humm a non starter in my book.

[Jim Hann]

Can we put the chalets back with the wheel? Just kidding!!! Actually, if the chalets were more like HAI's pavilion both in style and location I think we would not hear anywhere near as much about them. Maybe up north behind the home built parking near the old commercial exhibit buildings. Fed pavilion, etc.

Just thinking out loud.

Jim

[Ozzie]

Aircraft and ferris wheels don't mix! this happened not far from where i live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UL7JW6Gijw

[Mayhemxpc]

Yes, there did seem to be the "I can't quite put my finger on it" kind of thing missing this year. Maybe the thing missing was Burt Rutan or some "wow" factor of the coming thing in aviation -- something the average pilot can get enthused about even if we will never play with it. (E.g., VMS Eve and VSS Enterprise.) In regard to the above points:
+ Yes, I was surprised to see the Ford ferris wheel. It seemed out of place. But it was small, kids seemed to like it. No big thing.
+ Camp Scholler: First time for me there. I will NOT go to Scholler next year. LOUD, serious concerns about the ATVs (at all hours of the night). No being able to get a wifi signal more than 200 feet from the station was an inconvenience. (In fact, I found it nearly impossible to log in to the wifi anywhere. Fortunately 3G service was good.) Bus service was very good and the drivers in Scholler were helpful and courteous. (This was not always the case for the pre-post bus drivers elsewhere.)
+ Trams: Better routing and schedule, except in that hour before they shut down, say 7 pm onward. As long as you don't mind the exercise, my 8 year old son and I found that you can walk from the Theater in the Woods to Warbirds faster than the red line tram can get you there. Trying to get anywhere with a family of five usually meant walking: no room on the trams if you tried to board anywhere but the end points.
+ The airshow. Yes, after awhile, seeing different people do much the same thing, often in the same or similar type of airplane, one right after the other, makes me want to go do something else. My sons enjoyed it, however. Again, any suggestion for improvement is one of those "I can't quite put my finger on it" kind of things.

The Aeromart seemed a little sparse this year.

Oh, I will be back. It is still Disneyworld for aviators...like nothing else in the world.

Change is not always improvement. Improvement doesn't necessarily mean change. Here is to hoping that the EAA and AirVenture leadership are committed to improvement -- not change.

[martymayes]

+ Camp Scholler: First time for me there. I will NOT go to Scholler next year. LOUD, serious concerns about the ATVs (at all hours of the night).

Thanks for posting that.

I camped in Scholler in '05 with a tent. Same problems with kids riding & racing ATV's within 5 FEET of the door of my tent at no less than 20 mph. Didn't happen during the day, only after hrs when nothing else was going on. I wrote multiple letters expressing concerns for safety (my kids were very small then) and offered suggestions on how the issue might be solved without an inconvenience to anyone - all of which were summarily ignored like "no such problem exists." I faithfully camped in Scholler for the next 5 yrs and ATV activity continued unabated although I had upgraded to a pop-up camper.


Change is not always improvement. Improvement doesn't necessarily mean change. Here is to hoping that the EAA and AirVenture leadership are committed to improvement -- not change.

Agree. I plan on going back one day. Hope it won't be my last.

[Inspector Fenwick]

It has been many years since I stayed in Camp Scholler....but don't they post "quiet hours" in that area and on the camping documents? If not....why not? We can argue about what that means but I do think in most areas the generators have to be shut down. Or maybe not, I guess I will check. I can't believe that EAA would allow kids to run ATV's around the campground at all hours of the night. That just ain't right.

On edit.....generators must be turned off at 10:30p. To me, that represents the beginning of quiet hours. To me, that does not stop the bull sessions and other tools of fellowship, BUT it does say this: control your kids!

Where are the brain dead parents when these kids are driving the ATVs through the campground?

[steveinindy]

Where are the brain dead parents when these kids are driving the ATVs through the campground?

Where was the closest bar?

[Mike Switzer]

On edit.....generators must be turned off at 10:30p.

Well, I guess I won't be staying there if i go - you need the generator to keep the AC running in the travel trailer.

[martymayes]

Well, I guess I won't be staying there if i go - you need the generator to keep the AC running in the travel trailer.
there is a designated area that allows 24 hr generator operation

[Mike Switzer]

there is a designated area that allows 24 hr generator operation

Well, that is better. I have a whole different definition of camping out than I did 25 years ago. :D

[steveinindy]

I have a whole different definition of camping out than I did 25 years ago

Having woken up to a bear sticking its nose in my tent one morning (obviously not at Oshkosh), so do I. LOL After that experience, I started using cabins and trailers and grew accustomed to the "luxuries" associated therewith.

[rickatic]

There is quite a large area that allow for 24 hour generators. There is also a 24 hour Generator/pet area. We stay in that section. The drawback is the 24 hour generator areas are all south of Lindbergh and west of 28th street. There were a few kids riding around on bikes and atv's but I did not see any bad behavior. I like Scholler but every year they keep raising the price for camping...in a field???

Regards

[Jim Hann]

There is also now the electric and electric/water areas. Friends staying there said it was really quiet!

[ifly1848v]

I've called Camp Scholler home for about 3 weeks each summer for the past 33 years of my life. Regardless of your expectations or definition of "camping", there is a place in Camp Scholler for you. Need 24/7 generator operation or full service hookups? There is a place for that. Do you want a quiet little corner where the only evening sounds are the crickets and possibly a snoring neighbor? That's available as well. Its a huge place with plenty of options.

I like to be close to the action, so my family (wife, 3 kids, in a TENT) camps near the main access road, Schaick Ave. While there is more traffic, I find there is less crazy drivers, ATVs, kids, etc.

Next year, ask around for suggestions on what area would suit your expectations best. There are several of us "lifers" that would be happy to help.

[Mayhemxpc]

Brilliant advice...IF you get to OSH a week before AirVenture starts! For people who arrive on Sunday the options are much more limited. These would be the sites within sight of the RV tank emptying station. And yes, I did ask for advice at registration when I set up. Now the areas beyond Elm aren't bad. A little far to walk for a shower, but the port-a-johns are plentiful and well maintained and, as I commented elsewhere, the shuttle bus is frequent and flexible with their stops. If I had a choice I would have chosen something much closer, but unless you can afford to arrive a week early, those choices are closed off. See the discussion about this in another thread on when to arrive to get a good spot.

As far those mentioning the "quiet hours." Totally meaningless if they are not enforced. I saw no evidence of enforcement. 24 hour noise and traffic.

[rickatic]

Brilliant advice...IF you get to OSH a week before AirVenture starts! For people who arrive on Sunday the options are much more limited. These would be the sites within sight of the RV tank emptying station. And yes, I did ask for advice at registration when I set up. Now the areas beyond Elm aren't bad. A little far to walk for a shower, but the port-a-johns are plentiful and well maintained and, as I commented elsewhere, the shuttle bus is frequent and flexible with their stops. If I had a choice I would have chosen something much closer, but unless you can afford to arrive a week early, those choices are closed off. See the discussion about this in another thread on when to arrive to get a good spot.

As far those mentioning the "quiet hours." Totally meaningless if they are not enforced. I saw no evidence of enforcement. 24 hour noise and traffic.

No intent to argue...but we arrived early Sunday morning. The area immediately south of Elm was still very much available. We setup only 6 sites south of Elm at 28th. This is the 24 hour generator/pet area but many there were without pets. The site adjacent to ours did not fill up until late on Sunday.

With that being said, I had hoped that an early Sunday arrival might get me a spot along the tree line/corn field in the same section. No such luck. Those sites were either marked out as reserved or had campers in them that had been there for days...next year we will try to get there on Friday...

The water/electric sites are always filled early. That's ok with us. We did camp in one during Sloshkosh but I think they are way overpriced at nearly $50 a night. Our friends always stay at the old barn campground at the Waupon/Knapp corner, right off the end of the ultralight runway. They pay only $15 a night with no minimum stay...no showers or fresh water/dump facilities. Every year I say we will look at that option but we always return to Scholler... but another Scholler price increase may change that view...

Regards

[martymayes]

Now the areas beyond Elm aren't bad.
This is true. If you do it more than once you learn to compensate. Bikes for transport, strategically block off ATV routes. Haven't had to "clothline" any ATV riders......yet. Don't want to be surrounded by 24 hr generators, don't need electricty/water hookups, just a bag of ice every other day. So the "field" is okay for what it is.

[Antique Tower]

I can't tell you the last time I saw Security on patrol through Scholler. Back twenty years ago, you heard them going by all night in VW's and gators.

My favorite: year before last, two boys who looked to be twelve, riding through the camp on a dirt bike - the one in back was launching bottle rockets. This at about 11pm.....

[mrstephenson]

Our friends always stay at the old barn campground at the Waupon/Knapp corner, right off the end of the ultralight runway. They pay only $15 a night with no minimum stay...no showers or fresh water/dump facilities.

Yeah, that was one of the campgrounds that frustrates me as a paying Camp Scholler camper. The people in those campgrounds illegally hop the fence to use the Camp Scholler portapotties, easy access to the main gates, and most shamefully, use the Camp Scholler shower houses. I got to the campground early enough to camp at 52nd and Elm this year. There was a STEADY stream of campers from nearby campgrounds into Scholler. I went to alert EAA Security about these people. Within hours, the owner of the private campground placed a piece of farm equipment to block the main path. People then started to go around the obvious block to continue into the campground. I went to EAA Security to alert them a second time. They responded in a strange way--basically, they said there was nothing they could do to stop the illegal activity. HUH?!? Put up a fence--even a temporary one. Patrol the area, question and stop people breaking the rules. There were several things they could do.

It got so bad that on Friday night, at 3am, I was awoken by a couple of drunks making all sorts of noise outside of my camper. I stumbled out of the camper to find that the drunks belonged to the private campground next to Scholler. They had gotten into some trouble in another part of Camp Scholler, and one of their "buddies" drove them back to the closest access point to their campsite. That point was the path through the broken fence near my campsite. The buddy parked in a way that blocked my truck and escorted the drunks back into the nearby campground. Then the buddy came back about an hour later only to honk at my trailer several times as he drove away. Yes, honking in the campground at 4am!

I asked several of these people why they were crossing into the property illegally. Most argued that it was not illegal. HUH?!? The wristband gets you into the AirVenture grounds, not the campground shower houses! The most common response, one that I cannot argue with, involved the idea that EAA Security didn't care. They argued that if the EAA didn't care, then why should I?

I sent Rod Hightower a private message about the situation, but he has not yet read nor responded to my message. That is unusual and I know that someone will respond. I cannot believe that the EAA does not care about this situation. I will certainly be back next year, and the year following that. AirVenture is a great event, and I do enjoy camping in Camp Scholler. I will be there in the campground again next year, but there are always things that can be improved and this is one of those things.

[Hangar10]

Back to the ferris wheel... my son an I saw it from a distance and both said, "no way." Kind of cheapens the experience.

[danielfindling]

I agree that this airventure missed something. Typically there is a WOW moment - you gotta see this! Not this year. Maybe next. As for the ferris wheel, model a cars, bouncy house etc. While i recognize Ford is a key sponsor to airventure and I am grateful for the support. The ferris wheel did seem awkward and out of place. If it was an integral part of kid venture, I would not be troubled. So here are my two cents on an improvement. Move kid venture to the main grounds. If ford wants a ferris wheel, I get it, kids like it - how about in kid venture, same with the bouncey house - that way, ford gets its attraction and EAA can entice kids with aviation via the kid venture activities. What troubled me about the grounds was the hodgepod feeling of airventure. It seemed a little bit like a disorganized state fair with airplanes - Airplanes over here, intermixed with, well . . . Hoping for a better Airventure 2013.Daniel

Typed on IPad, please excuse typos.

[orvie6]

mrstephenson.... allow me to ask you one question.. IF you were camped in that private campsite...would you go out the 'legal' exits of it and go around the maintaince building and go into Camp Schroller that way, or would you use the 'path of least resistance'??? Come on already.. Yes..a wristband was purchased to gain access to the Airventure grounds..and althouth no wristband is required for Camp Schroller...arent those persons that stay at the private campground in Oshkosh, Wi. for the same reason you are?? To attend Airventure??? I stayed at that campgrounds my last two visits to Oshkosh...in '09 and again this year.. I did not arrive until Wed afternoon and I was camped about 75 feet from Knapp Street!!! I did not use the 'shortcut' you mentioned, as there were several 'good' access places along Knapp.. As far as portapotties..the area of that campgrounds I stayed in had at least 8 set up and had wash stations along side of them also..and they were kept clean. True..no showers as that is actually a hay field most of the year, but I could stay for one night or the whole week without a minimum stay..could put up a couple of tents as there was not 30'x20' site limits..(common sence prevailed) and only cost $15 a night!!! As an ex-truck driver, by partner and I used the showers at the truck stop down at exit 113. As far as those people using the Camp showerhouses...would you rather they not use anya at all..and you were sitting beside them , downwind, watching the airshow??? Lets face it..not everyone can or wants to camp in Schroller..I think the 'population' there was close to 40,000... Im a hill hick and like the more laid back atmosphere of the grounds provided by the 'Neighbors of EAA'...and I will use it again..in the manner it was intended..the same as you enjoy your stay in Schroller...different strokes for different folks...that all enjoy Airventure!!!!!
Im sure there were campers in Camp Schroller that also violated some of the rules there as well..but please remember..we were all there to attend Airventure and not everyone was a violator of someones rules..

[martymayes]

err....where is this alternative private campground? Exactly?

[orvie6]

The campground is owned by the Stadtmueller family and is at the junction of Waupun Road and Knapp St.. about a hundred yards from the Ultralight Red Barn..I belive the 'rent out' about 20 acres during Airventure..the open the grounds the week berfor Airventure and will allow camping into the week following the show..Look at Google Earth and you will see it quite plainly..

[orvie6]

The campgrounds is owned by the Stadtmueller family and is located at the junction of Waupun Rd. and Knapp Street...If you look at Google Earth, you will see where it is..it is about 100 yards from the Ultralight Barn!! They open the grounds the week before Airventure and also allow you to stay into the week after the show as well..

[Bill Greenwood]

I saw the ferris wheel and saw kids on it and was glad they were having fun at Oshkosh.

[rickatic]

I saw the ferris wheel and saw kids on it and was glad they were having fun at Oshkosh.

...same here...I must have walked past it 10 times and never had a negative reaction to kid's having fun on the ferris wheel.

[Hangar10]

I'm not saying that some didn't find it fun, but heck, if that is the standard then let's install a water park, a shooting gallery, a skate park, a baseball diamond and invite McDonald's to come on in. I wouldn't suggest that we make it "not fun", but for many, the fun is the airplanes and airplane people... I''m hoping that it remains fun for people who like airplanes.

By the way, the son that I mentioned in my previous post is 8 years old and he likes airplanes and airplane stuff. His reaction to the farris wheel was also one of disgust. Yes, he also likes fairs, carnivals, etc., but not particularly at the big airshow. If Ford wants to bring that stuff to lure kiddos, and more importantly, their parents, fine... we do appreciate you Ford. It just kind of cluttered up the skyline to see a bunch of aircraft tails, a control tower and... a farris wheel. What's next?

[skeeter_ca]

I laughed at the ferris wheel and just thought of it as funny. This was only my 2nd time at Oshkosh, the first was about 25 yrs ago. I was there at schroller all week. I came in on monday afternoon on a shuttle from appleton carrying suit cases and a big bag of camping equipment. Impossible to carry around. The lady at the camper registration desk promptly call for a golf cart to take us around and find a site. We found plenty only about 50yds from showers and restrooms. Later during the week a few campers left and we picked up our tent and moved it to about 50ft from the showers. great spot near the showers, yellow store and the bus stop. Couldn't of asked for better getting to the show so late.

Loved it the entire time i was there. Hope to go back soon but i know it won't be next year.

As for something that was missing. For me it was the experimentals. There just wasn't alot there for experimentals. Big Iron, Jets, WWII, LSA's, GA are all nice because they are planes too but i'm really interested in the homebuilt arena. BTW, i'm not interested in the 500+ RV's that were there. To common for me. I like the unique and different.

skeeter

[steve]

Did they hafta keep the thing lit up all flippin' night?
Speaking as a 8 year N40 veteran but a first timer in HBC, what's up with the high intensity street (prison compound) lighting along the south boundary? You guys get free electricity during the week?

[mrstephenson]

mrstephenson.... allow me to ask you one question.. IF you were camped in that private campsite...would you go out the 'legal' exits of it and go around the maintaince building and go into Camp Schroller that way, or would you use the 'path of least resistance'??? Come on already..

I would absolutely walk around and do it the legal way! In fact, I went to the Ultralight area a number of times during the week. Every time I biked around the maintenance building to get the Ultralight area legally. The “path of least resistance” to the Ultralights would be to go through that private campground. Not one single time did I cut across that private campground for one simple reason: it is private property and I did not have a legal right to be in that campground. Despite the 40,000 people camping there, Camp Scholler is also private property and requires special credentials to enter it. If I did not have a legal right to be there, I would not enter it. To do so would be trespassing on private property.


Yes..a wristband was purchased to gain access to the Airventure grounds..and althouth no wristband is required for Camp Schroller...arent those persons that stay at the private campground in Oshkosh, Wi. for the same reason you are?? To attend Airventure???

Entering the AirVenture grounds is not the issue here; legally entering Camp Scholler is the issue. There are a number of entrances to AirVenture that do not require someone entering Camp Scholler, and someone with a wristband but not camping credentials should use those legal entrances to the grounds. The Knapp Street entrance by the Theater in the Woods is a good example of such an entrance. Those entrances are used by people who rent houses or hotel rooms and drive to AirVenture. Why should people in the private campgrounds expect to be treated differently?

To enter Camp Scholler legally, one must purchase camping credentials that includes passes for both the vehicle and the camping unit. The pass for the camping unit stays on the tent, RV, etc for the entire week so that EAA Security can easily see that the unit is there legally. The vehicle pass must be displayed on the vehicle every time someone legally enters the campground because security guards stand watch 24 hours a day at each of the legal campground entrances. Each bike or scooter also requires a pass. The passes are VERY visible. As I am sure you realize, this year’s passes were NEON GREEN. It is hard to miss the camping credentials, and one needs to display the proper credentials every time to legally enter the campgrounds. To enter Camp Scholler without these credentials is trespassing--plain and simple.


I stayed at that campgrounds my last two visits to Oshkosh...in '09 and again this year.. I did not arrive until Wed afternoon and I was camped about 75 feet from Knapp Street!!! I did not use the 'shortcut' you mentioned, as there were several 'good' access places along Knapp … As an ex-truck driver, by partner and I used the showers at the truck stop down at exit 113.

I assume you mean that you stayed at a private campground. If so, VERY good for you! I never said, or meant to imply, that everyone staying in the private campgrounds broke the rules. However, there were MANY people that did break the rules—some very noisily at 3am!


As far as those people using the Camp showerhouses...would you rather they not use anya at all..and you were sitting beside them , downwind, watching the airshow??? Lets face it..not everyone can or wants to camp in Schroller..

In short, yep! I would rather smell someone who followed the rules than see someone break ‘em! I am PREFECTLY okay with someone camping in a private campground, just like I am okay with someone staying at a hotel or rented house, as long as they don’t expect to use the services of a campground they didn’t pay to use!

[Mayhemxpc]

Hear hear! Well said and responded to.

Now, can we move on to whatever was the "something" that was missing this year so that next year can be truly awesome? (This year being "merely" awesome?)

[rickatic]

Does not the wrist band grant access to places like the Fly-In Theater? This is accessed via the Camp Scholler area. I think claiming criminal trespass of those who have purchased a wristband is a big stretch. I had my friends over for dinner one evening...they have weekly wristbands...is that beyond reasonable behavior? I visited my friends at their site as well...when I drove my scooter through the gate, I just let them know I was visiting...they waved me through...

I understand you were inconvenienced by some rowdies...but there were many rowdies camped in Camp Scholler as well...kind of hard to tell them apart as they all like airplanes... :cool:

Regards

[Gently56]

This being my first trip to Oskosh, I feel obligated to post my "expatations of THE Oskosh" experience.
I happen to be a very logical person and always look to practicality and operation. Overall it was a excellent adventure and my Grandson really enjoyed the whole trip, however any venue this large can use some CONSTRUCTIVE critism. That said, then here we go!

I felt the layout was a bit poor, I would expect that the Experimental, and homebuilt areas should be formost in location, as in under or around the brown arch, the birthplace of the EAA, instead it is out in a field, and I felt it was "out of the way" almost like... "well they HAVE to go through here to get to the warbirds"! I understand why the ultralights and the seaplanes are seperated but come on, the experimentals and homebuilts ARE what Oshkosh is really about. Put them where they should be! In the CENTER of it all.


Now I understand the whole "sponsorship and the support of major companies" buy what is it really about? do we the members really want to "sell out" to someone who puts up major dollars and then the guys who want to build, experiment and learn are forced to the "Outer Markers" of the show. Again this is just my opinion and we all know the facts about opinions...everyone has one!!


The trams were, in a word great, a bit slow but thats O.K. because it gives a bit of time to rest in between the areas. the busses were fabulous and the drivers very helpful and cheerful. we stayed in Camp scholler (lindburg and 13th) and were very happy it was quiet and pleasant. Kid venture kept my granson entertained and happy to the point that I did not have all the time I wanted to see all the "grown up stuff" but My grandson became a young eagle and plans to come back next year.


Now for my pet peeve... Yeah I am a smoker, thats right a horrible smoke emitting bag of tobacco sucking waste of space. whatever...Please mark the smoking areas...let me repeat PLEASE MARK THE SMOKING AREAS!! I really dont care WHERE you want the smoking areas, I will always try to go to the proper places but the MAP was WRONG!! I follow the map and there was always someone with the shirt, radio and vest telling me that there is no smoking here, I point out ON THE MAP where we are standing and get the "not my problem" look!! Jeesh just make a sign for the correct SMOKING area near the spot on the map! (I learned the "Oshkosh cup" from a few helpful folks, but I would rather just be in the correct area)

Yes, it did not seem to be "special" since I have been wanting to go for almost 25 years, eventful ...yep, Special..not really. Airshows were very good, and as much as it pains me to say a bit redundant, Steve Miller Band...yeahhhhh O.K., Blooze Bros.... again fun and entertaining. but overall it "Just was missing something". and that is to say alot from a guy who has never been there before! Will I go back next year, you betcha! I learned alot and met some great people and over all had some good fun, but Special it just missed!


Mike

[Bill]

Yes, it did not seem to be "special" since I have been wanting to go for almost 25 years, eventful ...yep, Special..not really.

Mike

I have been going to Oshkosh on and off (mostly on) for thirty years. Perhaps much of the pain we feel from the "new" Oshkosh is from the memories of the Special years that we enjoyed. Special was any year that Bob Hoover performed, either in his P-51 or the Shrike Commander (you realized that you would always be only an amateur, ham-fisted pilot in comparison to Bob). Special were the years when we could watch Dick Rutan fly the Voyageur, or, later, see SpaceShipOne on its way to the Smithsonian to be enshrined in aviation history. Special years had either the SR-71 or the Concorde performing; I've never been sure which was louder, but you could feel the pressure waves from either the pair of J-58s or the four Olympus engines. A special year might have the AN-124 appearing with all those landing gear wheels (almost more than I could count). Or a special year would have the glider aerobatics during the airshow when the announcer would ask the audience to be silent (no longer possible with the new, intrusive, mega-audio front of the flight line speakers) so that we could hear the whoosh of the air over the glider wings, and we did. In those years, your pulse never slowed down and you drove or flew home with a wide smile on your face.

This year, courtesy of a coupled of underfunded volunteers, I watched part of the airshow and scanned Airventure via the webcams from the top of a 7,000-ft high mountain in Arizona that is 50 miles from the nearest city (the webcams would be a fabulous way to attract visitors to Airventure if more bandwidth was available so that more could use them without bringing down the system). I just didn't see anything that I could call "Special" either.

[danielfindling]

. Perhaps much of the pain we feel from the "new" Oshkosh is from the memories of the Special years that we enjoyed. Great post! I agree with your highlights, how about . . .Special years like Delmar Benjamin flying the Gee Bee in a low level knife edge pass or watching Jimmy Franklin in his Jet Waco or a guy flying across lake Michigan in a lawn chair with helium balloons or listening to Burt Rutan, a famous test pilot, Scott Crossfield, and Bob Hoover (he was ill and missed the forum I went too this year). Special years like watching a guy from Japan bring his single seat helicopter powered by chain saw motors or the Martin Jet pack fly - the Cartercopter fly, the Sikorsky fly, the ?? Fly. Listening to a yodel early in the morning. The newest homebuilt.innovation, dreams, history, culture and WOW keeps bringing me back. This year had me searching for the sole of Oshkosh. I was a little confused. A ferris wheel, a bouncy house, model A cars, no Rutan, an average airshow, some empty space in the trade show hangers. It was still good. John McGinnis and his Synergy project, SpaceX, NASAs return, a better Tram system, better food, seeing and hearing Jerry's one man band for 30 sec. Being in Oshkosh.I do not know if it is the economy, the leadership, or just one of those years. However, I will return next year, hoping to find another special year. I just don't know how many more years.

[stummers]

What was missing for me this year was something unique on Aeroshell (Phillips) square. Though probably no fault of the EAA, No 787 or A380, Vickers Vimmy, Super Guppy, but I never do tire of looking at C-5s or C-17s. An F-15 and or an F-22 would have been nice to see also. Participation by the active military seemd to be down this year.

[Dan Grunloh]

The campground is owned by the Stadtmueller family and is at the junction of Waupun Road and Knapp St.. about a hundred yards from the Ultralight Red Barn..I belive the 'rent out' about 20 acres during Airventure..the open the grounds the week berfor Airventure and will allow camping into the week following the show..Look at Google Earth and you will see it quite plainly..

I have camped at that campground and others including the old "Ollies Farm" which is now EAA security headquarters on and off for 29 years. The problem described of flightline wristband holders using showers without a camping pass isn't so simple and once you understand it you will see why EAA doesn't jump on this issue hot and heavy

1. You don't have to enter Camp Scholler to use a shower. There are at least 3 of them right on the flight line. Antique classic block shower, Hangar cafe shower trailer (a nice one) and the shower railer down beyond the end of the ultralight runway.

2. There is no individual camping pass issued for each person and doing so would be difficult as the number of person in a camping unit can and does change during the event. To add an additional layer of registration would require more volunteers and some form of enforcement. Would you station "police" at the showers on the flightline?

3. There was a time about 5-7 years ago (before they allowed camping under the wing in the UL display areas) when security tried to stop "outside campers" from entering the flight line gate even though they had a wristband. They tried to stop people carrying shower gear and bath sandals. Maybe they still do but you only have to go light and put it in a backpack. I no longer have to do that.

P.S. People use these several offsite campgrounds on the south end not so much to save money but because it puts them almost a half mile closer to their airplane or area of activity. It would be great if we could force them all to provide showers. The recent expansion of the UL camping area may help a little.

[orvie6]

Thanks for the clairfication...and like I said in my orginal message...I am an old truck driver and my guest and I went down to the truck stop at the junction of 41 and 26... True..it cost us a few bucks for the showers..but had a private shower, take as long as you want (within reason, and not a long line wanting showers), plus was able to get a meal and munchies, and ice for camp as well.. I know about the other showers, and agree that it is hard to 'police' people using the facilities.. I am now somewhat disabled and the closeness of the camp to the Red Barn gate and trams helped me make my decision on camping there..and like I finished my post with.. WE were all there to attend Airventure...and my first timer guest and myself enjoyed the three days we were there..so the 'society freaks' that insist that if you 'dont belong in Camp Schroller' dont be long there!!, can find something else to b....h about!!!

[Dan Grunloh]

Thanks for the clairfication...and like I said in my orginal message...I am an old truck driver and my guest and I went down to the truck stop at the junction of 41 and 26... True..it cost us a few bucks for the showers..but had a private shower, take as long as you want (within reason, and not a long line wanting showers), plus was able to get a meal and munchies, and ice for camp as well.. I know about the other showers, and agree that it is hard to 'police' people using the facilities.. I am now somewhat disabled and the closeness of the camp to the Red Barn gate and trams helped me make my decision on camping there..and like I finished my post with.. WE were all there to attend Airventure...and my first timer guest and myself enjoyed the three days we were there..so the 'society freaks' that insist that if you 'dont belong in Camp Schroller' dont be long there!!, can find something else to b....h about!!!


The showers at Planview truck stop are said to be great, much cleaner than usual camping shower and I hear they provide the towel. I have a few friends who go there and would never use the more primitive EAA camping showers. All of these are luxuries. I am a hardcore camper and have camped at numerous airshows and primitive wilderness areas where a sponge bath and shave in the tent is the only option.