EAA Forums - My long-winded thoughts on the culture, etc.

[Hal Bryan]

Hi everybody -

I was chatting with my boss this morning about our forums, discussing ideas about how we can better engage with our more senior management to make sure that we do the best job we can when it comes to answering questions and addressing the “hot topic” issues. The conversation drifted a bit from there (as any conversation I’m involved in tends to do) and became a discussion about the overall tone and culture of the forums, which is what got me thinking about writing this post.


First of all, there’s a lot to love about what goes on here – anytime somebody involved in a project needs a hand and posts a question, the responses are usually an embarrassment of riches, full of support and great advice. These are cases of members helping members, both directly by answering the original posters question, and indirectly, by making the answer publicly available to anyone who might be reading the threads and have similar questions that they haven’t yet asked.


When a new person shows up and introduces themselves and says they want to build an airplane or learn to fly or whatever, the responses are fantastic. There’s an outpouring of support and a sense of fellowship that, to me, is the very definition of what EAA should be about. Things like these prove my theory that what I think of as the “EAA spirit” transcends technology and turns these forums into one big virtual EAA Chapter. And that’s why I come to work every day. Heck, that’s why I start looking in on the forums from my iPhone the instant I get out of bed in the morning. (That and to delete any spam posts that my friend Matt may have reported overnight.)


This may be harder to believe, but I also love to see the more, shall we say, constructive feedback that gets shared here. You’ve got a bunch of ideas to improve camping in the South 40? You thought the chalets were in a bad spot? You have suggestions about the air show? You think there should be more free water? GREAT! We need to know these things, obviously. When I see those discussions get started, I get the satisfaction of knowing that, by doing my job, I’ve provided the platform for you to help make EAA and, in these examples, AirVenture, better. Without venues like these forums, these discussions might happen in a vacuum – individuals sending letters and/or emails or making phone calls to offer their feedback, but without the support of or, in some cases, the debate with your fellow members. Individual feedback is absolutely invaluable — crucial, in fact — but I personally believe that there’s also tremendous value in having a more public discussion about some of these things, and I’m proud to play an integral part in making those happen and ensuring that they continue.

With all that said, there are aspects of the culture that can be pretty dispiriting, and run the risk of damaging the credibility of the forums themselves and shooting us all in the foot when it comes to trying to work together to find better ways of doing things. Personal attacks in particular are not tolerated, period. Beyond that, though, arbitrary statements that are factually incorrect, and some of the occasionally overpowering negativity just don’t do any of us any good. Much more importantly, that’s not who any of us are as members of EAA or the aviation community at large.


Consider this, then, a general reminder and a direct request to pay extra attention to the culture of your forums. Not a single one of you would ever dream of throwing a piece of trash on the ground at AirVenture, and I’m sure that all of you would stop and pick it up if someone else did. Once again, that’s just who we are, and I think these forums should feel the same way.


If you have feedback, comments, questions, or complaints, by all means, keep them coming! I think you’re going to find that we’ll be stepping up our efforts to respond and address those things as best as we possibly can. Just remember to please keep things civil, respectful, and on-topic.

If it helps, and it may or may not, remember that I’ve got to take some of these conversations directly to the VPs or to Rod, and it’s challenging when I have to say something like “Here’s some great ideas and a couple of very serious questions about EAA and AirVenture, but just ignore the part where these two guys yell at each other and one of them says ‘Hal is a jerk who secretly hates airplanes and once frowned at a puppy.’”


I’m not whining, and I’m not asking anyone to make my job easier, but I am asking you to help me help all of us, if that makes any sense.


Thanks for reading this, and ongoing thanks to all of you that participate regularly and are passionate enough to share your ideas about how to improve your organization.


- Hal

[Jim Rosenow]

Whoa!!!!....you FROWNED at a puppy?????? I'm DONE with ya, ya consarn galoot! LOL!

Thanks for your thoughts...I think it behooves all of us to be adult and play nicely here...just like I assume the majority of us would in person. Disagee (if necessary), don't denigrate.

[Bob Meder]

Hal, well said. The best part of aviation, across all lines, from airline to military, home-built to certified aircraft, AMT's to ATP's, and on and on, is the common passion for flight and the camaraderie that it brings. The best friends I've ever made are in aviation.

To echo Jim's comment, let us agree, that if we must disagree, that we not be disagreeable.

[kmacht]

Well we all heard it here first and everything said on an online forum is always the truth. EAA officially hates puppies now!!!


Just kidding of course.


I agree with most of what you said, the only thing that I would ask is that these forums don't start getting moderated to the point that posts are getting deleted. If they do then at least keep the post, delete what needs to be deleted, and add a note so those reading the thread know that either part of or an entire post was removed. Transparency is what will keep these forums relavant and usefull. A personal e-mail to the offenders and the occasional post asking that things stay on topic is usually all that is needed.

Keith


Keith

[RV8505]

Very nice post Hal! I think almost everyone wants to see the EAA to succeed. However, there are always those few that serve no purpose other than wanting to see the world burn.

[WeaverJ3Cub]

Thank you Hal. Well said, well timed, and much needed.

I must say I appreciate this all the more as a new (less than one month) EAA member. I finally joined after hearing wonderful things about EAA, appreciating what you guys do, and being very interested in AirVenture every year. I must say, when I joined the forums the day after getting my membership card, I was excited to finally be "in" and was floored by the response my tailwheel endorsement post got. Then, as Airventure wound down last week and the complaints and personal attacks on Rod got more and more frequent, I started wondering "Do I really want to go to AirVenture and see these people in person? What kind of organization is this anyway? AOPA doesn't have this."

So....thanks Hal. We need constructive criticism, but not vitriol. There's enough of that in our world. And I would add, not only does EAA need us to be civil, but general aviation does as well. Non-pilots and non-EAA members post and visit these forums as well, and I'm sure what they see colors their perception of GA as well as EAA.

[Hal Bryan]

I agree with most of what you said, the only thing that I would ask is that these forums don't start getting moderated to the point that posts are getting deleted. If they do then at least keep the post, delete what needs to be deleted, and add a note so those reading the thread know that either part of or an entire post was removed.

I agree with you 99.99% of the time, Keith, and I can tell you that there are no changes to any of our policies or our approach to these forums in light of some of the recent discussions. Other than pure spam, I'd guess that I've removed less than 10 posts in the 13 months this forum has been active. I don't do this lightly, but, if one user is directly attacking another, I don't see any value in, say, just locking the thread and leaving the offending comment there for all to see.

As long as it's not patently offensive, obscene, slanderous/libelous, or a case of one user directly attacking another, it stays.


Transparency is what will keep these forums relavant and useful.

Amen to that!

My bottom line with all of this is that there are too many important topics being discussed here to let any of the threads devolve into shouting matches or to run the risk that anyone's voice be discounted because the passions behind the conversation got out of hand.

[Floatsflyer]

Hal, excellent stump speech, glad you're confirming that some of these forum comments will be brought to managements attention and acted upon as required and as necessary.

Hal, as you know, I'm not one to suffer fools gladly here so I think I'm in need of some definitive direction and clarification on the cultural aspects, particularily in the area of "personal attacks".

I have never said or would say uncivil or disrespectful things like "you're a fu**in' moron" or your mother s***ks c***s in hell". I'm more of the dripping wet with witty sarcasm type in reply to intolerable, insufferable and ignorant individuals.

So, in the name of paying extra attention to the forums culture in order to not damage it's credibility, I need to know if I can still say things like, "Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak."

Forewarned is forearmed! Have a great weekend.

[Hal Bryan]

Hal, as you know, I'm not one to suffer fools gladly here so I think I'm in need of some definitive direction and clarification on the cultural aspects, particularily in the area of "personal attacks".

Great question.

Let's say I posted my plans for a VTOL, 200-passenger LSA that ran on my new, proprietary, perpetual-motion powerplant.

If you replied, "Hal, you're an idiot*", I'd call that a personal attack.

If you replied, "That idea is stupid and impossible," well, I'd still rather you found a slightly nicer way to say it, but, by my definition, that's not a direct, personal attack against me.

I don't mean to be patronizing or glib by presenting a ridiculous example, and I hope it's not coming off that way - it's just helpful for me when trying to establish some clarity. And, hopefully, introduce a little lightness here and there, with nothing but the best of intent.

*- Yes, I know you'd come up with something much smarter than that...

[Bob Meder]

Off topic, but I gotta tell you, every year at OSH, someone comes to me with an idea for something like that airplane. Must be Karma or something...

[vaflier]

Hal, I agree with. All you have said, and I do beleive that even out of strong disagreements great ideas can emerge. If we all thought alike it would be a very booring world. Since you hear day after day the complaints of others I would very much like to hear your ideas to improve the organisation and Airventure. As an insider you must have a very different point of view from the rest of us. Please understand that I am not being sarcastic, but you have access to information the rest of us may well be ignorant of. Hence I suspect you may have some ideas that the rest of us have not considered. Your thoughts ????.Randy Powell

[Kyle Boatright]

Hal, thank you.

Some of us had this discussion over a beer at Oshkosh. Essentially, the idea is to challenge ideas and policies, not people. Saying "Joe from Omaha, you're an idiot." isn't constructive. Saying "I disagree with that idea and here's why (or here's a better idea)" leads us to constructive discussions. I think we all enjoy those.

[rickatic]

Hal

Another "well said"...your contributions to content and civility are so appreciated

Keep up the great work

Regards

[Jim Heffelfinger]

Thanks from me too Hal. Seems as though other forums are also experiencing similar grumpy-itis attacks. Could it be heat?
jim
sacramento

[steveinindy]

Thank you Hal. I would agree with the assessment that most of the problems on this forum stem from a handful of people who simply want to gripe about why they aren't getting exactly what they want when they want it from an organization that has to- by it's very nature- cater to a very diverse population and has done so since it's inception. What's bad is that the remainder- yourself and Chad especially given your ability to remain positive despite how nasty this place gets- are one of the primary reasons I haven't become a complete and utter misanthrope.


Seems as though other forums are also experiencing similar grumpy-itis attacks.

Today is the first time I've logged on in a while and seen more discussion about, you know, airplanes on the list of active threads than "The EAA sucks because...." or "Rod is a huge sellout because..." threads. I'm a member of a couple of other forums (HBA being the one I am most active at) and haven't noticed folks being any grumpier than normal but then again with places like VAF, POA and the Purple Board, it's kind of hard to tell.

[Racegunz]

Hal, I don't think anyone here hates airplanes, they just hate flying them! HAHAHAHA! But good point as long as it doesn't turn into a "all is roses" atmosphere where everyone ignores the the issues that are let's say controversial.

[steveinindy]

But good point as long as it doesn't turn into a "all is roses" atmosphere where everyone ignores the the issues that are let's say controversial.

LOL Agreed. The polarization of the EAA's membership (or at least the minorities directly represented by the members of this forum, including those who share my own take on things) is what is the clearest and most distinct danger to the organization. The "traditionalists" want to get rid of the turbine and glass cockpit crowds because they think those factions are trying to marginalize them out (or simply because "This is not what Paul had in mind!" or "This isn't what I grew up with!") without considering for a second that they are more or less asking for the thing they fear most to be done to another group. Basically it's the aviation equivalent of race baiting or hate speech: you blame all your problems on another group so that one does not have to take the time to look and see what it would take for a real solution to the problem (or if there is even actually a problem).

I can understand why people get all bent out of shape over the "this isn't the EAA I grew up with!" because even though I'm in my thirties, this isn't the EAA I grew up with. When I first learned of the Association, I was a wide-eyed kid who marveled at anything that left the ground. A lot of the designs that the same people who gripe about the changes to the EAA fly did not exist when they first learned of the organization. The problem isn't progress or decline, but how one wants to view it. A lot of it comes across as the "You darn kids, get off my lawn!" at times. Technology has moved past the wood and fabric designs that predominated when the EAA was founded. Even the "gee whiz" designs that were new or relatively so when I was a kid are now celebrated as "classic homebuilt designs". One of the key "tenets" I have always understood the EAA to have is that we are supposed to help move aviation forward. While if your thing is a classic like a Pietenpol or one of the other planes that looks like an extra from a WWI movie, that's fine that doesn't mean you should try to push out or marginalize those who don't think like you do. I'm a contradiction in terms myself: I love to see anything fly but don't have much interest in "flying for fun" anymore. It's point A to point B, the "airplane as a tool" mindset. There are few things that bring me to the verge of tears (the obvious like a kick to the groin notwithstanding) and one of them is the sight of a B-17 or DC-3 (not the hideous Baseler turboprop conversions....that's a crime against nature) or Fifi flying. Similarly, my fiancee said she's never seen me as excited in public as the other day when I discovered a private airfield with an Ercoupe on short final while we were driving past. Not bad for a guy who thinks anything under 250 knots is "slow" but who just started building a self-designed LSA, eh?

My point is that we're all airplane geeks and need to focus on what makes us similar instead of what have differ in. In the 20-something years where my involvement has changed back and forth from "hangar rat" to "member" I have never met anyone through the EAA that I don't have a shared interest or experience with. You can tell an EAA member because they are the ones that reflexively look up when something passes overhead.

As far as "what Paul had in mind", I think the only thing we can decidedly say that he did have in mind was that he wanted a group for people who love to fly in all its wonderful and often weird permutations and to keep the ability to do that in place for future generations. He's publicly said things to the effect of "there's room enough for us all" under the banner of the EAA. If there isn't, then we might as well turn in our certifications because if we can't live together as brothers we shall perish together as fools.

[rosiejerryrosie]

Hal, I was going to be the first to thank you for your essay here, but I see that I'm a day late and a dollar short. Still time, though, to say thanks. One of the reasons I became involved in this flying thing was because of the people who were already doing it. My personal belief is that anyone who flys anything is a brother/sister and if they need help, I'm there!

[Bill Greenwood]

Hal, re your new idea of a VTOL 200 hp LSA sounds great to me. You're no idiot, just a visionary. As a matter of fact I am working on a new cold fusion powerplant, have almost perfected it, and if you act now you can get in on the ground floor as one or the co investors. Just email me your American Express card number.

I do just have one small question about your airframe to resolve, before I get too far with the final version of my engine. And no, it is not about structural integrity; with your riveting skills you have set a whole new standard there.

Will your plane be available in any color other than yellow and brown?

[Hal Bryan]

Hal, I agree with. All you have said, and I do beleive that even out of strong disagreements great ideas can emerge. If we all thought alike it would be a very booring world. Since you hear day after day the complaints of others I would very much like to hear your ideas to improve the organisation and Airventure. As an insider you must have a very different point of view from the rest of us. Please understand that I am not being sarcastic, but you have access to information the rest of us may well be ignorant of. Hence I suspect you may have some ideas that the rest of us have not considered. Your thoughts ????.Randy Powell

Randy -

I don't want your greatly-appreciated question to get lost in the shuffle here, but I also don't want to just respond off the cuff and not give it the attention it deserves. I thought it over last night a bit, and some more today, but, in the interest of total transparency, today's my first day off in about 3 weeks - no complaints, mind you! - and it's been devoted to taking out the trash, taking a couple of naps, and taking my wife to a movie. That's about as coherent as it gets today. Let's see where my brain is tomorrow...

In the meantime, though, I can tell you that, as far as my little piece of EAA staffdom goes, my singularly top priority is to make sure that all of our online communication channels stay open, and to do my best to facilitate multi-way communication here and in our social media properties as well.

As for this ...


Hal, re your new idea of a VTOL 200 hp LSA sounds great to me. You're no idiot, just a visionary. As a matter of fact I am working on a new cold fusion powerplant, have almost perfected it, and if you act now you can get in on the ground floor as one or the co investors. Just email me your American Express card number.

I do just have one small question about your airframe to resolve, before I get too far with the final version of my engine. And no, it is not about structural integrity; with your riveting skills you have set a whole new standard there.

Will your plane be available in any color other than yellow and brown?

Bill, you've got a deal. My Amex # is 7. The airplane will be riveted within an inch of its life, and, I'm thinking of a kind of chartreuse with faux-woodgrain, sort of a flying family truckster. If only I had a name for that color scheme... ;)

Thanks for the laugh.

To the others of you that have responded here, thanks so much for your kind words and favorable responses. Let the discussions continue...!

[Jim Hann]

Bill, you've got a deal. My Amex # is 7. The airplane will be riveted within an inch of its life, and, I'm thinking of a kind of chartreuse with faux-woodgrain, sort of a flying family truckster. If only I had a name for that color scheme... ;)

Thanks for the laugh.

To the others of you that have responded here, thanks so much for your kind words and favorable responses. Let the discussions continue...!

Awesome! Where are the smilies on the iPad?

Jim

[Joe LaMantia]

Hal,

Nice topic and well presented! As usual lots of good comments from the bloggers, always mixed with humor and common sense. EAA is a big organization as is AOPA and when you have a lot of people you will get "politics", that is different points of view. Most of us have been around aviation long enough to know the culture, helping out with a question, is like helping a guy push his plane back into the hanger. We don't ask him if he is a Republican or a Democrat, we just grab a strut and push. Here in the world of blogging we don't see facial expressions or changes in a voice that would tip us off when someone posts a response. Things like that are part of communication and have some impact on the blogging world. We have a few topics that are driven by factors outside aviation but have an impact on aviation, that can bring in points of view that get the underware "twisted" from time to time. Overall I think the bloggers do a good job and it's a friendly atmosphere. This blog is well named, it's like having a hanger big enough to house all aircraft around the world.

Joe
:cool:

[Hal Bryan]

Hal,

Nice topic and well presented!

Many thanks, Joe!


We don't ask him if he is a Republican or a Democrat, we just grab a strut and push.

If anyone wants to put that on bumper sticker, button, or a t-shirt, let me know, I'll take several :) - love it!

Cheers -

Hal

[Bill Greenwood]

Hal, as for as bumper stickers go, here are two of my favorites that I have seen in Boulder, both of which might not be too popular in Oshkosh or Midland, but there is an element of badly needed truth in them.

"God is too big to be confined to any one religion"
"I 'm already against the next war"

Now Boulder may be a little far to one side of the spectrum, but there is a lot of propaganda on the other side so some balance is definitely needed.

As for an aviation related saying, my favorite is , "It's always going to be better to be on the ground wishing you could go up there, than being up in airplane and just praying that you can get down."

[Hal Bryan]

As for an aviation related saying, my favorite is , "It's always going to be better to be on the ground wishing you could go up there, than being up in airplane and just praying that you can get down."

Definitely words to live by.

(As an aside: based on your comments about Merlin-powered trams in another thread, I'm working on a run of "Greenwood for Emperor!" bumper stickers as well... ;) )

[Zack Baughman]

Nah Hal, Bill needs one that says, "My Spitfire has more seats than yours!" :rollseyes: