Flagmen and Marshaller's Signals

[Lrrryo]

All,

Just a constructive note about the flagmen at OSH this year......

We really need to teach the flagmen proper marshaling signals to avoid confusion.

The signals the flagmen give to move aircraft are NOT related to the flagman's position to the aircraft. I am seeing flagmen standing forward and to one side of the aircraft motioning with BOTH hands to move forward. (arms extended up and back of the hand facing the pilot, motioning back and forth. This signal is for the aircraft to move STRAIGHT forward, irrespective of the marshaller's position. Note the "move ahead" signal in the attached PDF.

Often the marshaller means "come toward me" with the above. Instead he should be turning the aircraft using the signal in the "turn left" or "turn right" box of the PDF.

This became VERY confusing when approach the intersection of two grass taxi paths, with other turn options and close to runway 27. The marshaller was signaling us to go straight thru an obstruction and we just had to stop, tying up traffic until it was clear as to his intentions. His intentions were to have us move over to an adjacent taxi path, closer to the runway.

Anyone else have issues?

[Lrrryo]

If anyone would tell me how to attach a file, I'd appreciate it. Going to the file manager, I can up load a file by dragging, but no way to load it. ?

[Hal Bryan]

Once you've uploaded the file, then you drag it down to the attachments section to attach it to that particular message - here's a screenshot:

2330

[rawheels]

I noticed that too; Especially when the Cubs were parking. I've seen it at a lot of airports, but the difference is that at most other places you can see the parking tee or something that helps you figure out where they are trying to direct you to.

The more annoying issue for me was the 2-3 marshallers that stood directly in front of my taildragger airplane. I felt like I needed one of those semi signs that says "if you can't see me, I can't see you". I can't complain too much though, despite the HBP sign on my non-aerobatic plane, I was directed right up front to show center in the IAC area! And, I did make it to my spot without an issue. So, thanks volunteers!

[Paul Chandler]

A group of us watched a P51 run over a white taxi marker on Friday near the warbird area. Mainly because the marshaller was giving unclear signals and the pilot would have lost sight of the marshaller the nearer he got. The marshaller should have moved to ensure that the pilot could see them at all times. There is no point standing directly in front of a P51 giving the stop signal because the pilot will not see you. Also noticed that the taxi speed of some aircraft on the grass was high and would not have made for a comfortable ride plus the increased risk of damage. One aircraft did suffer some damage as result of the rough grass and had to stop for a while to remove a wheel spat and check for other damage leading to a very congested taxiway for a short time. This area was coned off the following day.

[Joe Delene]

I usually hang out in the area North of Rwy 27. I do agree the potential for confusion can be present. Most of the time you can figure out where they want you to go. It was a little less so going into an actual parking spot, it took a bit to see they wanted to later push me in backwards. I just revert back to common procedures, if safety is in doubt, can't see the marshaller, or confusions exists, just stop for a bit. They will then move to where you can see them or point more clearly how they want you to go.

For the most part it isn't like you are holding up a line behind you. If there is a line most of the time you can follow the guy in front, for a while anyway. I would also like to thank all the volunteers, no complaints from me.

[FlyingRon]

NEVER, EVER trust the marshaller to keep you out of trouble. They're sort of like ATC in class D airspace, to assure orderly arrival. You are on your own to make sure you're not taxiing through ditch or across a cone or whatever.

[Mike M]

NEVER, EVER trust the marshaller to keep you out of trouble. They're sort of like ATC in class D airspace, to assure orderly arrival. You are on your own to make sure you're not taxiing through ditch or across a cone or whatever.

well said.

[nddons]

To be fair, us marshallers have to watch a VERY old videotape, including Tom P. as a very young man, before our first shift. We were told that this is the last year for that tape, and a more up-to-date video will premier next year. Hopefully, these ideas will make it in to next year's training for the flight line ops folks.

[Lrrryo]

Once you've uploaded the file, then you drag it down to the attachments section to attach it to that particular message - here's a screenshot:

2330

Hal,

I'm doing something wrong.

I go to the Manage Download box, like you have posted. If I drag an image to any one of the three boxes there, it changes only to a picture of the image, without any options. The only way to get back to the Manage Download box it to delete that image, and then it's lost.

Help.....

Larry

[Hal Bryan]

Hi Larry -

First off, make sure you're in the UPLOAD manager, not download. Here are the exact steps to attach a file, just to be sure we're on the same page:

1. When composing a message, click the "Attachments" button in the toolbar, the one with the paper clip. (Depending on your setup, you may need to click "Go Advanced" to get to the full-featured editor if you're just using a quick reply.)

2. This brings up the upload manager.

3. Click the "Add Files" button in the upper right, then click "Select Files" and browse your computer for the file you want to add.

4. Once you've chosen a file, click the "Upload Files" button to load it to the storage area associated with your forum account.

5. Once this is finished, the file should appear in the "Attachments" window at the bottom of the Upload Manager. If not, this is when you'd drag it from the list of files you've uploaded into the attachments box, otherwise, there's no drag and drop necessary.

6. Click "Done."

Let me know if this helps. If not, feel free to email me the file and I'll just go ahead and attach it to the original message: hbryan@eaa.org

Thanks -

Hal

[Lrrryo]

Hi Larry -

First off, make sure you're in the UPLOAD manager, not download. Here are the exact steps to attach a file, just to be sure we're on the same page:

1. When composing a message, click the "Attachments" button in the toolbar, the one with the paper clip. (Depending on your setup, you may need to click "Go Advanced" to get to the full-featured editor if you're just using a quick reply.)

2. This brings up the upload manager.

3. Click the "Add Files" button in the upper right, then click "Select Files" and browse your computer for the file you want to add.

4. Once you've chosen a file, click the "Upload Files" button to load it to the storage area associated with your forum account.

5. Once this is finished, the file should appear in the "Attachments" window at the bottom of the Upload Manager. If not, this is when you'd drag it from the list of files you've uploaded into the attachments box, otherwise, there's no drag and drop necessary.

6. Click "Done."

Let me know if this helps. If not, feel free to email me the file and I'll just go ahead and attach it to the original message: hbryan@eaa.org

Thanks -

Hal

Hal,

That was better... see if the chart of marshaller signals shows up.....

2349

Larry

[Jim Clark]

We cut the FAA safety video on Ramp Hand Signals down to 4 minutes and use it to train ramp marshals at the National Biplane Fly In. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8EQ1mMbFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Lrrryo]

We cut the FAA safety video on Ramp Hand Signals down to 4 minutes and use it to train ramp marshals at the National Biplane Fly In. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8EQ1mMbFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Jim,

4 minutes seems a bit skinny for training... and assume you do some live training, too? While not hard, it was clear that some of the marshalers and their supervisors had no clue about the signals, especially in turning planes.

[FlyingRon]

Vintage training runs an hour PLUS we hand out a book with the marshaling signals on it. Everybody goes through training every year.

[Bill Greenwood]

May I offer a tip from a pilot's perspective to a marhsller or flagman?
The pilot knows how to park the plane, ( or he should know).
If the flagman shows the pilot where he wants him to park, the pilot can put the plane there, while the flagmen watch the wingtips and other people, etc.
This is better than the flagman trying to drive the plane by remote control,as it were, and especilly true for tailwheel planes.

So as the pilot approaches , point to the desired parking spot, then as he gets closer give the specific directions to make the fine adjustments. And stand to the side so he can see you.

[FlyingRon]

That's pretty much what I do. If it's a nose wheel, I'll just stand dead center about 20' ahead of the plane and let him come towards me.
If it's a tail dragger, I'll stand to the side and try to get him centered well in advance.

I had to have a talk with one of our (supposedly experienced) parkers and point out that airplanes really don't want to make 90 degree sharp turns. If he'd just go where he want the plane to end up, the pilot will come to him at a comfortable radius. This pulling the guy down the aisle and then snapping him a sharp turn into the space isn't practical.

[Garrett]

AirVenture volunteers are trained to primarily use the signals in the Aeronautical Information Manual.

Unfortunately, that vocabulary of signals has some limitations that are revealed in a situation like AirVenture. One example that has been brough up is the lack of a signal for "We are going to put the tail of your airplane between these two tails". In the interest of saving pushing and pulling on planes, we try to position them as well as possible beforehand - as best we can.

Additionally, it's been widely noted that most pilots are not familiar with the AIM standard signals. In fact, this year we were offered paddles with "Stop" and "Go" printed on opposite sides, to facilitate signalling to pilots who are unaccustomed to the standards. This is the reason we use the "emergency stop" signal for stop - it's much less ambiguous to the unfamiliar pilot than the standard "stop" signal, which we've learned just doesn't work in too many cases.

The training video we've been using in Flight Line Ops is a bit dated (1988), but the content on signals is still 100% accurate. We're working on a fresher, non-VHS video, but the content remains basically unchanged, especially with respect to aircraft safety and movement. We also publish a handbook for all our volunteers with the signals included, along with a list of the sign codes listed in the NOTAM. That doesn't stop many people creating their own signs, of course (e.g. what would you do with a "RFA" sign? Apparently it's Replica Fighters Association, which we saw repeatedly this year).

The video training is augmented by in-person on-the-job training; often, after years of experience, a marshaller learns by repeated direct observation what signals for nonstandard operations like tail-parking have the highest probability of being understood. An experienced marshaller will also be able to judge a pilot's nonstandard reaction to signals, and compensate accordingly. A less experienced volunteer obviously won't have developed that skill.

Despite everything, though, mistakes are bound to happen - we volunteers are human, just like the pilots flying in (and many of our volunteers are, of course, pilots who flew in). Our goal is "safety above all else". Flight Line Operations, not counting the various showplane parking areas, has many new volunteers every year; we structure our operations to have cochairmen and experienced volunteers managing operations with less-experienced volunteers, giving them as much direction as necessary and a supervised environment in which to safely gain experience as well as evaluate the volunteer's abilities and suitability. We also understand that it can be a confusing and stressful environment for a pilot who has just flown halfway across the country, made his or her way through the Fisk arrival procedure and possibly taxied halfway across the airport, maybe with uncomfortable passengers and a full bladder. Simplicity leads to safety, and with the rapid pace of arrivals there isn't always time to do a perfect job, just a good-enough job. As a group, we strive to do the very best that we can.

For any confusion, we do humbly apologize.

Garrett Nievin
EAA #163899
Chairman, EAA AirVenture Oshkosh Flight Line Operations

[Lrrryo]

Garrett,

Thx for the detailed post.

For the most part, the volunteers do a great job.

I see a lot of confusion with the "go straight" signal, when the marshaller often means turn toward me. If they used the "turn right" or "turn left" signal, it would be pretty easy to understand. We see this a lot in parking where the marshaller gives the go straight signal and then walks back in an arc, expecting the plane to follow. Fortunately, parking is fairly obvious, but when one has a choice of two taxi ways, or a slight turn to avoid something, it's totally confusing.

This is the only signaling that I see a lot of confusion on.

If there is any confusion as to what is expected, I could argue to stop until it's resolved. That's a lot better than an accident or damage.

Thx again for the overall great job.

[Janet Davidson]

I see a lot of confusion with the "go straight" signal, when the marshaller often means turn toward me.

I see this all the time at FBOs all over the country. Not that it shouldn't be used correctly at AV, of course.

[Dklein56]

I agree that we had a more challenging time this year parking aircraft in the north 40 camping area. We had a lot of new inexperienced and younger volunteers then the past. That just reinforces that us Co-Chairs do need to do better job at training and giving feedback to the volunteer. The first three days in camping areas is when we are the busiest and the most spread out over the field. We relay heavily on our returning experience to keep the operation moving. We could not do it without them. We do emphasis the importance that only one flagmen should directing the aircraft. All other need to stand aside clearing the area too many orange vest.I appreciate the input from all and keep it in mind for next year. A little extra training on the field can go a long way.Dave KleinFLO Co-Chair

[Wilfred]

Dave, I fully agree with your comments about parking and flagmen.

I am still upset about my encounter with a flagmen a few years back...the tower asked me to land very long on runway 36L, which I did. I went to taxi off the runway onto the grass but was directed back on the runway by a flagman who pointed me to barricades at the end where he had me stop while he moved the barricade and waved me through. He then stopped me and came up to the airplane and REALLY gave me hell for landing long, which I had been instructed to do.

I am still pis...ed about this...I still wonder if they guy was drunk or high on something.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

I have a question for FLO (flight line ops)
I was parked in GAP next to taxiway Alpha next to Bassler.
Left just after 1PM on friday---little traffic at that time
taxied south on Alpha and was dirrected west on Bravo
I was then dirrected to the left off of Bravo onto the grass
then taxied all the way to Bravo2 and then got back on pavement and taxied to Bravo3 for take off from 09
The grass taxi way was a little muddy--but no big deal for the bonanza ( it might of been a little close for for the prop on a mooney)
Question--while I was on the grass--not one plane used Bravo taxiway going either direction
So why did they put me down on the muddy grass instead of keeping me on the pavement?
Kevin

[Jim Hann]

Dave, I fully agree with your comments about parking and flagmen.

I am still upset about my encounter with a flagmen a few years back...the tower asked me to land very long on runway 36L, which I did. I went to taxi off the runway onto the grass but was directed back on the runway by a flagman who pointed me to barricades at the end where he had me stop while he moved the barricade and waved me through. He then stopped me and came up to the airplane and REALLY gave me hell for landing long, which I had been instructed to do.

I am still pis...ed about this...I still wonder if they guy was drunk or high on something.

Wilfred, I've worked that position multiple times. Normally we are crossing two way traffic on the north side of those cones, and an aircraft coming to the end could cause congestion issues, nothing fatal, just congestion. We also have direct radio contact with the tower and they try to keep us advised if the cones need to be moved. I've personally had several folks come up to the cones and I got them out of the way so we could keep traffic moving. The key is to be flexible and alert, especially when it is a 18 operation, years ago we had a co-chairman that wore one of those electronic scrolling badges saying "I am not the orange dot!"

Although I don't know all about your encounter please accept my apology for not being treated as cordially as you could have been.

[Jim Hann]

I have a question for FLO (flight line ops)
I was parked in GAP next to taxiway Alpha next to Bassler.
Left just after 1PM on friday---little traffic at that time
taxied south on Alpha and was dirrected west on Bravo
I was then dirrected to the left off of Bravo onto the grass
then taxied all the way to Bravo2 and then got back on pavement and taxied to Bravo3 for take off from 09
The grass taxi way was a little muddy--but no big deal for the bonanza ( it might of been a little close for for the prop on a mooney)
Question--while I was on the grass--not one plane used Bravo taxiway going either direction
So why did they put me down on the muddy grass instead of keeping me on the pavement?
Kevin

Kevin,
Westbound on Bravo at 1 pm could be several reasons but my primary thought would be show acts coming from Weeks to cross at Alpha headed to show center. Some like Tucker get towed, others taxi. Bravo is too narrow to pass two opposite direction airplanes like we do on 13/31, Alpha, etc. Possible heavy traffic coming out of the FBOs could cause issues also, although that is a bigger issue for 27 ops. Another possibility (I don't remember the TODA for 9 to B2) is when somebody gets down and clears for the FBO @B2 and needs the hard surface. Think King Air, Pilatus, Piaggio, etc.

Without being there at that moment, I can't say for sure, but I've worked all of those intersections and as I said in the previous post, flexibility is important. Keeping options open is another.