South 40 - 2nd class treatment

[Helen]

Who can I talk to about camping conditions in the South 40? I'm always told that EAA really wants vintage aircraft to come to the show and park in the vintage area so people can admire vintage planes but without a doubt we have the very worst camping conditions on the field over in the South 40. While the North 40 gets flush toilets, nice showers, sinks, a paved road with a full time bus, and this year even a restruant, (Camp Shuler is similar) all we get in the south 40 is some portable showers, and a foul tasting water truck. No sinks, no paved road (so the bus stops running as soon as it rains), no flush toilets, and this year they weren't even cleaning the port-o-johns which produced quite a lovely odor in 100 degree heat.

Any suggestions?

Helen

[Hal Bryan]

Hi Helen -

Posting here is definitely a good start. I'd encourage you to also email your concerns to feedback@eaa.org and it wouldn't hurt to copy vintageaircraft@eaa.org as well.

Regards,

Hal

[Cary]

Although as always, I enjoyed my annual week's visit to OSH, I'd like to add that there are several places where being treated as 2nd or 3rd or even last class is the norm, and halfway to Fond du lac isn't the only place. That's where I was camped last year, so I can make the comparison validly. The north side of the North 40 is similarly step-childed, compared to the south side of the North 40. I don't want to seem to be complaining exclusively, because there are a lot of positives about how things are run, but here are some thoughts on the complaint side of the ledger:

· There are insufficient potties placed way too far apart (note: they did seem to be serviced often enough).

· Truly it was closer to the permanent shower building (the old one) without cutting across the runway than where the portable shower trailer for the north North 40 was located this year--did anyone use it?

· Speaking of showers, how about longer hoses? It would be nice to be able to more adequately rinse off the south part of the ol' bod.

· In the past, there has been an ice wagon, which delivered ice even to the southern most part of the South 40--but no sign of the ice wagon in the north part of the North 40 this year.

· Being left multiple notes to register is annoying, especially when the tent is obviously tagged and the airplane is registered--but with a windshield cover, you have to look somewhere other than the windshield, folks--like maybe the pilot's window.

· Having a CAP cadet ask (albeit nicely) to move from the "taxiway" that hasn't been used for an hour is a little annoying and unnecessary, until the taxiway is actually in use.

· It's nice that the bus service takes over when the trams shut down now--but why is it necessary to unload a full bus at the North 40, instead of just delivering the passengers around the North 40?

· As many times as each bus was full this time, have the number of busses been cut back? It seemed so.

· If the "rules" require marshallers to bring in and help departing airplanes, where are the marshallers when it's time to leave? I didn't see anyone to assist departing aircraft after mid week, and although the CAP cadets directed airplanes into rows with empty slots, I didn't see any EAA volunteers after about mid week assisting to park aircraft.

· The rules require adequate tie-downs. Yet all I saw regarding enforcement of that rule was the tie-down vehicle going around hawking tie-downs--but plenty of airplanes which were inadequately tied down, including with the forbidden dog tie-downs and rope that wouldn’t hold light laundry. Had the mid-week storm lasted any longer than it did, I suspect there would have been some damaged airplanes.

Regarding other issues, I agree that some vendors don’t belong at Airventure, but where do you draw the line? I’d like to see some relevance to aviation as a required criteria for vending—I can buy sheets and pillows and mattresses elsewhere.

I don’t have a problem with the VIP tents—just wish they didn’t cost so much! It already costs an arm and a leg to fly to OSH, camp for a week, and register, so I can’t begin to justify sitting in an air-conditioned tent.

I find the “how to find it” booklet to be very confusing. I don’t have any idea how to improve it, but there’s got to be a better way. Perhaps putting the vendor booth numbers on the booths would help, but it might be helpful to list which building they’re in.

The vendor food is adequate, and it’s not so pricey as to raise any alarms—ever try to buy a hot dog at a major league baseball game?

I’d like to see more of the popular sizes for EAA clothing merchandise—it seems as if there are always a lot of left overs of odd sizes, but none of the popular sizes left after the middle of the week.

Cary

[RV8505]

Who can I talk to about camping conditions in the South 40? I'm always told that EAA really wants vintage aircraft to come to the show and park in the vintage area so people can admire vintage planes but without a doubt we have the very worst camping conditions on the field over in the South 40. While the North 40 gets flush toilets, nice showers, sinks, a paved road with a full time bus, and this year even a restruant, (Camp Shuler is similar) all we get in the south 40 is some portable showers, and a foul tasting water truck. No sinks, no paved road (so the bus stops running as soon as it rains), no flush toilets, and this year they weren't even cleaning the port-o-johns which produced quite a lovely odor in 100 degree heat.

Any suggestions?

Helen

Food for thought. The more you ask for the more money they have to raise and the more EAA changes. It ain't free

[baboss]

· Truly it was closer to the permanent shower building (the old one) without cutting across the runway than where the portable shower trailer for the north North 40 was located this year--did anyone use it?

· In the past, there has been an ice wagon, which delivered ice even to the southern most part of the South 40--but no sign of the ice wagon in the north part of the North 40 this year.

CaryI was one of the first folks to hit the new shower in the N40 (between the Hilton and the Weeks hangar) early Monday morning and when we got there the attendant was trying to get someone over there to unlock them. I proceeded to the Red shower house and got right in.
A set of bike racks at the shower houses might be nice. I'll have to email that one in.
I saw no ice wagon in the N40 while I was there Sunday night through Tuesday noon. It was pretty easy to exit the fence by Friar Tuck's and hit the gas station. On sunday night they had plenty of ice.

[RickFE]

I have to agree with you Helen. The North 40 seems preferable to the Vintage Camping. I have a 1965 Six that we lovingly restored but I opted for the N-40 because the amenities seemed superior to me. I checked again this year just to see if I remembered it wrong but was glad I chose the North 40 once again. Plus, it is easier to bike to stores outside the gate etc. Next time I go, it will be the North 40 again.

[martymayes]

Food for thought. The more you ask for the more money they have to raise and the more EAA changes. It ain't freeAnd there is absolutely no way reallocation of resources could cover some of these minor request without adding costs?

[RV8505]

It all costs money. What should they reallocate? I guess they could raise the camping fees and charge more for water.

[martymayes]

It all costs money. What should they reallocate? I guess they could raise the camping fees and charge more for water.
How were the chalet's added without increasing costs?

[WtrSkr]

· Speaking of showers, how about longer hoses? It would be nice to be able to more adequately rinse off the south part of the ol' bod.............That sounds like a good idea until one imagines where that shower head might have been during shower before yours. I think the hose length is a few inches short to prevent some folks from giving a self colonic while showering.

[RV8505]

How were the chalet's added without increasing costs?

People were renting the chalet's for 40K

[FlyingRon]

Sorry but those "taxiways" are the emergency access points and we don't let people set up camp in them whether we are moving planes through them or not. Of course, someone put a suitcase showroom right in the middle of the one most frequently used in the past (I've been tasked with keeping that one clear when a fire chiefs car came blasting through during one of the unfortunate incidents several years ago).
\

[martymayes]

People were renting the chalet's for 40K

How many chalets were rented for $40k?

[RV8505]

Probably enough to pay for that big shower room in the north 40

[Helen]

It all costs money. What should they reallocate? I guess they could raise the camping fees and charge more for water.

How about a set of portable sinks? That shouldn't kill the budget and every other shower house on the field I have seen has one.

And demanding that company the port-o-pot company they have hired actually clean the port-o-pots rather than job emptying them shouldn't cost cost anything either. This is the first year that this has been a problem. I'm thinking that they switched vendors.

Helen

[martymayes]

Probably enough to pay for that big shower room in the north 40

I have my doubts they made enough to pay for themself.

[Kyle Boatright]

I have my doubts they made enough to pay for themself.

I bet they turned a handsome profit. Structures like that aren't expensive to buy or rent. Also, EAA gets a cut of the concessions.

[martymayes]

I bet they turned a handsome profit. Were any chalets rented for the entire week? Were they rented for the advertised price? I bet we'll never know cause that will be kept secret....

[MyDogRudy]

I heard they made $200,000 from the chalets but not all board members feel even that profit justifies the backlash from the membership regarding the 'vision pollution' (as my family to calls it).

[RV8505]

I heard they made $200,000 from the chalets but not all board members feel even that profit justifies the backlash from the membership regarding the 'vision pollution' (as my family to calls it).

I agree. Not just the Chalets but They need to clean house on that flight line. I they so much junk up there you can't see the planes in the show.

[martymayes]

I heard they made $200,000 from the chalets

"If" that's the case, they need to install more. Push more airpanes off the field if necessary because they can't generate that kind of cash. And with that kind of income, Helen should get her powder room in the S. 40, decorated with imported ceramic tile. All without raising fees or charging more for camping or a bottle of water.

[Inspector Fenwick]

Sorry but those "taxiways" are the emergency access points and we don't let people set up camp in them whether we are moving planes through them or not. Of course, someone put a suitcase showroom right in the middle of the one most frequently used in the past (I've been tasked with keeping that one clear when a fire chiefs car came blasting through during one of the unfortunate incidents several years ago).
\

Flying Ron, I took the posters comment to mean "hey, don't stand there, this is a taxiway" issue. If they did that in the Vintage Area it would be the first time ever. I did not get the inference that someone had set up camp in a taxiway. We stand around in those taxiways all the time, greeting friends, swapping lies, etc. When the scooters come, we move.

Of course, I could be wrong on this.

[FlyingRon]

We have always told people they couldn't sit/stand for long times in the taxiways. Usually it's not an issue, except during the airshow.

[EZRider]

I decided on vintage camping, but had to land on 27 and taxied forever as far south as they could put me, with no facilities in site! I asked to move to North 40 camping. Taxied forever to end up on the north side of 9/27 again no facilities! This is the worst I have seen it in 35 years of attending. The Bonanzas to Oshkosh, the Cessnas to Oshkosh, Moomeys to Oshkosh, Pipers to Oshkosh, cubs to Oshkosh, etc. take all the good camping!Very disappointed this year.

[Kyle Boatright]

Were any chalets rented for the entire week? Were they rented for the advertised price? I bet we'll never know cause that will be kept secret....

Again, Hightower stated that they were sold out prior to the event. You and I will never learn if there were discounts given.

[Kyle Boatright]

"If" that's the case, they need to install more. Push more airpanes off the field if necessary because they can't generate that kind of cash. And with that kind of income, Helen should get her powder room in the S. 40, decorated with imported ceramic tile. All without raising fees or charging more for camping or a bottle of water.

Going with that line of thinking, let's just turn the entire flightline into high rise condo's. It worked along the beach on the Gulf Coast, so why wouldn't it work at Osh?

[Floatsflyer]

Going with that line of thinking, let's just turn the entire flightline into high rise condo's. It worked along the beach on the Gulf Coast, so why wouldn't it work at Osh?


;) Won't work....have to be timeshares as only needed one week of the year. The other 51 will be very boring!

[Cary]

Just to make it clear about the "move from the taxiway" issue, I was sitting in my chair about 5' inside the line drawn by the row numbers, I had been there perhaps 2 minutes when I was asked to move, and there had been no aircraft using the taxiway going north for more than half an hour; all aircraft had been going south on the other half of the taxiway because north-bound aircraft were being turned into the camp area long before getting to the row I was in. It's not a big deal, just an unnecessary intrusion.

I think what annoys me the most is the disparity in facilities from one area to another. Almost anywhere on the south side of 9-27 of the North 40 has adequate facilities reasonably spaced, but almost anywhere on the South 40 or the north side of 9-27 of the North 40 has inadequate facilities. We all pay the same to camp there, so we should all receive reasonably similar facilities. Alternatively, if we're in the "Section 8" part of the field, we should get a discount.

Cary

[Chad Jensen]

Facilities around the grounds will continually be upgraded as the funds are available. Shower facilities are insanely expensive, and adding them all at once is impossible without borrowing money. Paid for showers are much preferred, and as EAA is able, they will be installed. We know they are needed, and we have a "planning and zoning" meeting four or five times a year to go over sight plans and visions for each area.

It's coming...but no matter who gets what when, someone will not be happy. We know that, but we can't do it all at once.

[FlyingRon]

Yeah, and it's largely determined by when you arrive. Some of the earlier guys get sent to "fond du lac" while those who arrive a bit later either get a fill in place or some of the reserved type club stuff that we've decided not to hold reserved anymore. Sorry about that. We did open up what is primarily exhibition area (past grand champions and other unusual or pristine aircraft) for parking. I'm not a big fan of reserving the rows up front for parkers and don't buy the reasons for them doing so, but that's why I'm just a worker bee and not someone in any position of authority.

[Sarah]

I agree, Helen. Facilities are one thing, but what struck me was the noise.

(Thanks for the email pointers, Hal. I will follow up with them.)

Somehow, money was found to install loudspeakers on the south 40. Every other row, these things started blaring out commercials ( oh, sorry, "sponsor recognition" ). Totally ruined the pastoral camping experience. I didn't even like the music. I come to Oshkosh for the planes, not to feel like I'm in a shopping mall.

TEAR DOWN THE LOUDSPEAKERS next year. PLEASE.

[FlyingRon]

The loudspeakers have been there for decades (at least before 1995 when I moved to Vintage from the North 40). What was new this year were the "front of the flight line" speaker arrays, which admittedly did sound nice, but really didn't add as much to the experience as they took from the blocked views and other annoyances they caused.

[BeagleOne]

Those new speakers were REALLY ANNOYING. So was the constant music. Oshkosh is supposed to be about airplanes and their engine noise is the only soundtrack needed.

[FlyingRon]

The quantity of music is about the same as it's been, it's just that with the old PA it was easier to ignore. About the only new thing was the slick 30 second intro to the show that they played prior to the usual inane airshow play-by-play drivel.