Attendance down this year?

[Brian247028]

We went to EAA today and compared to last year there appears to be less planes and less campers. Even passing Fond du lac airport there didn't seem to be as many planes. Anyone else notice this?

[Eric Page]

I'm here for the first time, but it did seem to me that there was plenty of open grass on the Homebuilt and Vintage areas. Don't know what represents "normal."

[Matt Gonitzke]

It definitely seemed like there were less people on Wednesday, although today seemed a bit more normal. It was very easy to take pictures of aircraft on the ground without people surrounding them, something I've not been able to do before. The restaurant we always eat at in the morning was not busy at all, which is very unusual.

[martymayes]

I hear the Chalet's didn't enjoy a very high level of occupancy either!!

Wonder who eats the loss on that?

[TheGreatFlight]

It certainly felt really busy today - not even the rainstorms seemed to drive the people away. :)

[Brian247028]

We left about 30 min before the rain hit. I felt sorry for those still there getting soaked.

[CarlOrton]

Interesting data point: earlier in the week, helicopter rides were $65. As we passed by on the bus this AM, I noticed they were now $49. My wife mentioned that the normally full waiting area was empty.

[BBARTONB]

I have been watching the web cams all week,and sure looks like there's not very many people there.Of course I'm use to the 80"s and 90's when it was shoulder to shoulder every where on the grounds.Look's like those day's are long gone.

[mtijim18]

I was there Sunday to Wednesday and the the attendance was definitely down. This is what happens when organizations let surrounding pricing get nuts.
$ 300 rooms 25 miles ( sign on back of the room door says $ 69 ) away and $ 1000 weekly car rentals. EAA should bring all the local business people together and inform them they are helping to kill the golden goose. From what I hear EAA is also being a little greedy with their vendors also. I saw many empty spaces in the vendor hangers also. They did this same thing in St. Louis a decade ago and took the Fair de St Louis from hundreds of thousands in attendance to tens of thousands. It never recovered from that loss. While Rod is clean sweeping the bloated EAA staff he might think about controlling costs of attending the show before there is further damage. I have been in the travel industry for 30 years and have seen this senario before and it doesn't end well. I am sure EAA will report the attendance is up again this year but all who went know better.

[Inspector Fenwick]

I was wondering, and I am not sure about what I am about to say.....but this year it seemed that there was no "A List" entertainment at the Theatre in the Woods. Forgive me if I am wrong, but where was Lt Dan Band, Jeff Dunham, etc.....I saw a poster of some guy who looked liked Johnny Depp, and I was asking myself, "who is this guy"???

I am concerned mainly because of the issue of continuity. Passing aviation down to the next generation. Airventure plays a major part in that. I realize that the staging of Airventure is a gargantuan task, and you can't please everyone. Can't control rain or heat. Also, we must remember that the economy is still pretty bad.

I (sort of) resent the never ending trail of vendor golf carts (usually with one seat occupied by a high maintenance "spokes-model" in platform shoes) and wonder if this is aviation. One vendor (a camera outfit) had their "crew" dressed up like hip hop performers, and I wondered, again, "is this aviation?".

At least Jerry the One Man Band was still there. Oh, and thanks for arranging the Curtis Commando....now THAT is aviation.

[Tom Downey]

Money is tight, lots of folks out of work, and the cost of tickets are up costs of fuel is way up, Lots of reasons people do not wish to spend the time/money in this economy.

[Jim Hann]

I was there Saturday to Thursday... More planes than I could look at, more forums than I could attend, not enough tables in the food court, the least amount of rain/mud of the last couple years. We don't need to set any records to make me happy, I saw my friends, enjoyed the camaraderie. I had a great time, so did my kids.

Jim
See y'all in 2013.

[rv8bldr]

We were there the whole week and attendance was DEFINITELY down. Both attendees and exhibitors. The hangers had way fewer exhibitors, with really wide aisles (you could see the booth tape marks from previous years) and hangar C had huge open areas with no exhibitors whatsoever. At no point did I find any hangar crowded, and Aircraft Spruce was only 1 or 2 people deep, whereas they are normally 5-6 people deep. I asked one of the hangar exhibitors about it and he said that EAA keeps raising the prices every year while he has been noticing a declining attendance. He figures they have probably raised the prices to the tipping point for a lot of companies.

Out where Vans and Bearhawk Aircraft were set up there was only one line of tents. Every other year there was at least two rows of tents.

I have been attending since '93 and this year had the strangest vibe of all. It just didn't feel right for some reason. The crowds were way down, and there just didn't seem to be same excitement. Hopefully it is an anomaly, and we'll go again next year. But if it is the same (or worse) next year, then....

[s10sakota]

I agree with rv8bldr. As usual, I had a truly awesome time at Oshkosh again this year spending time with my Dad and friends. However, I told my dad on day one that "it just doesn't feel right". The very first thing I noticed was how few people were there. Then, when the hangars opened up, I couldn't believe how sparce they were. Usually, there's so many people in there it difficult to walk. This year the space was wide open. Even during airshow time it was noticable how few people were there (relative to past years). Even the airshow itself didn't seem up to par with past years.

Yes the down economy plays a part in the low attendence, but I think both the EAA and town of Oshkosh have shot themselves in the foot by gouging all of us on prices.

Will they ever learn...

[Mike Switzer]

I asked one of the hangar exhibitors about it and he said that EAA keeps raising the prices every year while he has been noticing a declining attendance. He figures they have probably raised the prices to the tipping point for a lot of companies.

This is something that has been happening in the last 5-10 years across the trade show / convention industry. I exhibit at a lot of specialty ag trade shows & a good friend of mine does the same in the aftermarket automotive industry (we help each other out at the shows) - everyone is jacking up vendor fees to the point we are only attending the bigger shows with a lot of exposure or the ones that haven't gotten greedy yet. A lot of the problem is with the support companies that set up the booths, curtains, etc raising their prices ridiculously, as well as the convention center fees. They all think they can bleed the vendors to pay for everything. Well, we have to sell 3 times what it costs us for the trip just to break even, so a lot of the vendors just aren't going anymore if the return isn't there.

[martymayes]

Yes the down economy plays a part in the low attendence, but I think both the EAA and town of Oshkosh have shot themselves in the foot by gouging all of us on prices.

Will they ever learn...

Mark, I live out here in Brooklyn just a few miles from MIS. What do you think hotels and resturants do during a NASCAR race week? They gouge the crap out of anyone that comes within 40 miles. Hotel rates in Jackson quadruple over they normal rates. A few yrs ago the township sent out a questionaire for input on how to raise revenue.....my suggestion was to gouge more people during NASCAR races. Well, actually I suggested they find a way to "capitalize" more from the NASCAR events.

[Bill Greenwood]

It didn't seem busy at the first of the week, but then Monday was an official high of 102 degrees, and like most people I didn't want to be out in the sun.

It picked up later and it was certainly busy, both planes and people on Fri and Sat, maybe not as much as some past years, but still bustling.

[turtle]

I asked one of the hangar exhibitors about it and he said that EAA keeps raising the prices every year while he has been noticing a declining attendance. He figures they have probably raised the prices to the tipping point for a lot of companies.
He's right. The company I work for was on the fence about setting up a booth last year. This year we decided it would not happen. Can't justify the cost / benefit.


I have been attending since '93 and this year had the strangest vibe of all. It just didn't feel right for some reason. The crowds were way down, and there just didn't seem to be same excitement. Hopefully it is an anomaly, and we'll go again next year. But if it is the same (or worse) next year, then....
I'm with you. The whole show seemed off. It was more like going to a big mall than the greatest aviation event of the year. Previous years I didn't want to leave. This year I left after two days and went to the Dells for some excitement. In hindsight, I should have stayed home and watched it via the webcams. Next year I'll be trying SnF. AV is no longer a "must see". I guess its time to accept that the new EAA is all about greed and big business while thumbing their noses at the membership.

Anyone know if its possible to cancel an EAA membership?

[MEdwards]

Anyone know if its possible to cancel an EAA membership?All they will do is take you off auto-renewal. It's very important to them to keep their numbers up by whatever means possible.

[Mike M]

...this year it seemed that there was no "A List" entertainment at the Theatre in the Woods. Forgive me if I am wrong, but where was Lt Dan Band, Jeff Dunham, etc.....One vendor (a camera outfit) had their "crew" dressed up like hip hop performers, and I wondered, again, "is this aviation?".

now, that's interesting. not enough top-name bands or comics, but concerned the focus has drifted off aviation? hmmm.

first year i went was '73, i didn't even know they had evening entertainment, i was way too pooped from the aviation exhibits and events. second time was '78, ditto. third time '86, tent camped on the field, would have liked a cold beer in the evening but never bothered to look because i naively figured it was a family show there wouldn't be any. last (maybe a double-entendre there) time was '06, again camped, but by now i knew there was entertainment (?) louder than the airshow who could miss it? and i found there are a bunch of places out around the edges of the area with free beer and free food where one can gate-crash, places where the well-heeled and well-connected carouse until the wee hours. interesting. what happened to the family aviation show? (burp)

[malexander]

I like a beer now and then but was sort of bummed when I found out you could get it on the grounds now. To me, that was one of the big differences in AV vs SnF. I always felt EAA was more family oriented.<shrug> Guess I was wrong.

I can't get out of EAA, I'm a lifetime member. I don't want out either. I'd like to know how I can make a difference. I don't think you make a difference by quitting or giving up, that just makes you a quitter. I think constructive questions with honest solutions would make more of a difference than just griping about everything.

[martymayes]

now, that's interesting. not enough top-name bands or comics, but concerned the focus has drifted off aviation? hmmm.

Jeff Dunham is aviation related!

[hkyplr18]

I like a beer now and then but was sort of bummed when I found out you could get it on the grounds now. To me, that was one of the big differences in AV vs SnF. I always felt EAA was more family oriented.<shrug> Guess I was wrong.

I can't get out of EAA, I'm a lifetime member. I don't want out either. I'd like to know how I can make a difference. I don't think you make a difference by quitting or giving up, that just makes you a quitter. I think constructive questions with honest solutions would make more of a difference than just griping about everything.

Myself and many other members have made a ton of constructive questions/ criticism over the last 2 years. It goes completely unnoticed from what I can tell. I very rarely see any EAA staff on here except for Hal and I think if he could make everyone happy he would but he is only one man. Let's see some higher ups come on here and reply.. Maybe a board member or two ? My membership expires tomorrow.

[s10sakota]

I think malexander is right, I'll always be a member because hey, it's still awesome! I can't say I agree with everything EAA is doing, but I will still return to Oshkosh every year. It's just too much fun not to go!

[malexander]

I think malexander is right, I'll always be a member because hey, it's still awesome! I can't say I agree with everything EAA is doing, but I will still return to Oshkosh every year. It's just too much fun not to go!


That's one of the reasons I continue to go, it's just a lot of fun. You really don't have to spend THAT much money either.

I did the math when I got home. Round trip from OKC, 2 adults & 2 18 yr old students, pulling a 38' 5th wheel camper, camping fees, gate fees, fuel was $3000.00, for 11 days. That was splurging once in a while & eating lunch on the grounds. I'm not sure of all the vacations one could go on for that long on that "little" amount of money. I don't figure groceries because I'm going to eat whether I'm home or away. It's all in the planning. If I feel something is outrageously priced (pop, ice cream cones, etc) I don't buy it. We eat a good breakfast at the camper, and a good supper when I return at the end of the day. Lunch & junk food is optional, I just won't give the vendors the satisfaction of screwing me. I think most of us, NOT ALL (medical reasons) could probably go without a noon time meal. I know I don't want the burdon of carrying anything, so I'll do without. A lot of folks don't mind carrying a backpack, if so, & you HAVE to have junk or lunch, take your own.
I guess the bottom line is to make a budget & stick to it. I'm the worlds worst at this, but I did it. Paid cash for the entire trip, including purchasing the entire Rans S19 firewall aft kit. All within budget set 6 months in ago.

[Hal Bryan]

I very rarely see any EAA staff on here except for Hal and I think if he could make everyone happy he would but he is only one man.

I appreciate the nod, kkyplr18, I really do. And I hope I'm not being immodest when I say that you're right. But don't forget stalwarts like Zack and Chad, too. Yes, all of us have been a little quiet lately - for the last 6 weeks or so, anything that isn't absolutely vital to Convention inevitably gets prioritized lower, for better or worse. Anyway, you should all know that I report on what I call "notable threads" up through my management every week, for the explicit purpose of ensuring that your voices are heard. Not every senior leader here reads every post in every thread on every forum, but my boss and I make sure that they see the ones that they need to. You may agree or disagree with the actions that are taken, if any, in response, but your voices are heard.

[Hal Bryan]

Anyone know if its possible to cancel an EAA membership?

Yes it is.


All they will do is take you off auto-renewal.

This isn't true. If you want to cancel your membership, it'll be canceled, and, if you choose, the prorated balance of your annual dues will be refunded.

[Hal Bryan]

But don't forget stalwarts like Zack and Chad, too.

Mea culpa - I neglected to mention our VP of IT, John Carrier, who regularly chimes in on questions about wifi, cell coverage, parking, etc. John's a key contributor and does an enviable job of participating here. My apologies for excluding him - it was just a touch of post-Convention sleep deprivation.

[Bill Greenwood]

Hal, ain't this fun!
Guys now have a whole year to complain about bottled water costing $3, until it is time to go for next year Airventure. You weenies ought to go see some of the old John Wayne Flying Leatherneck type movies, or Pappy Boyington ones. You'll never hear them complaining about not having cheap enough water. I once had diner with Pappy and I didn't see him drink any water, at least not water by itself.

One thing the debate about water prices and other costs has done, is apparently replace the complaints about parking. I don't see any complaints yet about parking here. Did anyone encounter the Wicked Witch of the North 40 this year?
I flew into FLD Sat., since I needed to drive to APPL on Sun night so needed to get a rent a car. It would have been so easy and kind of fun to fly into Osh via Fisk on Sat, or even Sun morn, hardly any traffic, but then I would have had to fly out to FLD on Sun afternoon so not as convenient.

As for food prices, I am sure they are no more than you'd pay at a college football game or car race, of movie theater, or most other events. I can't say how much food is at the local tractor pull or dog fighting gala , haven't been to them. I got a brat sandwich and Pepsi for $7.20 tax inc total and that doesn't seem too bad. I don't eat breakfast at EAA and rarely dinner so it is just lunch and not a significant part of the total cost of attending. I do wish the food could be a little better, there must be a state law in Wisconsin against having Dr. Pepper or even Coke, but nothing I can't live with. If I had 10 people to feed it might be different.

I have been an EAA member for 30 years, and come to Osh every year. I wish there were some changes like not having your ears assaulted for 15 min by the kid in the F-18 or have oil smoke blown on the crowd by the two guys in the Eagles, but I an not about to cancel my membership, not until they get to the days when it is all jets and chalets, and little of other kinds of flying.

[Mattmutz2]

Anyone know if its possible to cancel an EAA membership?

I let my membership lapse years ago and still this year received paper junkmail (your dollars at work) begging me to renew. The letter did say I could cancel at any point in the year with a refund.

[BBARTONB]

Hal;I think what would be a great thing;is for the "higher"ups to have a "live"web cast question and answer session,where we could ask them direct question's,and get a "unprepaired"answer.I'm sure that won't ever happen.Like was said,your only one man,can't change the tide by yourself,but sometimes,us "members"get the impression that nobody's listening,or dare I say "CARE".

[Dave Stadt]

Hal;I think what would be a great thing;is for the "higher"ups to have a "live"web cast question and answer session,where we could ask them direct question's,and get a "unprepaired"answer.I'm sure that won't ever happen.Like was said,your only one man,can't change the tide by yourself,but sometimes,us "members"get the impression that nobody's listening,or dare I say "CARE".

Rod made numerous town hall meeting trips to chapters all over the country and fielded hundreds of questions. Did you attend?

[BBARTONB]

Must have missed the notam.But the live web cast would be better for everyone.Rod wouldn't have to travel all over,members wouldn't have to travel,and everyone could listen in,not just the ones at the meeting.

[MEdwards]

This isn't true. If you want to cancel your membership, it'll be canceled, and, if you choose, the prorated balance of your annual dues will be refunded.Good to know, Hal. That's the way it should be. However, I can say for a fact that option was not offered me when I considered quitting a couple years ago. It's the only time I have ever been treated rudely by someone I assumed was an EAA employee. Probably a one-off problem.

By the way, I reconsidered, based on a letter on the old forum from a person who it seems no longer participates.

Mike E

[Mattmutz2]

The local newspaper has reported that Rod says "he expects attendance would exceed 500,000 this year, but would still be lower than the roughly 541,000 who came in 2011"

You should know that the way they calculate that number uses - and I heard this in the Finance office in a conversation with Brian Wierzbinski - a practice called "creative accounting".

They consider a daily wristband to be one attendee. Somebody who buys a weekly wristband is counted as 7 people. They also have a variety of variables they change at their convenience. For example, in Camp Scholler, they claim that some people who come to Oshkosh don't actually go into the convention. This number is what I always called a "butt number" - something pulled right out of somebody's butt. They'll just make up a number and say "There was probably 20,000 people in the campgrounds that didn't go into the event."

They inflate the number by saying their security cannot make sure that all aircraft in North 40 are registered.

They claim that several campers bring a wife and children who cannot be counted, so they add on thousands of "attendees". So they "estimate" to help get the attendance number they want to report.

Trust me on this - from the top down, they don't care how many people are there. They only care how much money they are making. I spent five years running the system that reports that number - the only one they care about.

Why do I care? EAA exploits the city of Oshkosh, WI, my hometown, and they lie to government so they get favors on roadwork, airport privileges, etc.

I am EAA #715837

[Mattmutz2]

I should add, EAA staff is discouraged from calling this a "convention". Caught by management several times, I was reminded that it is AirVenture.

The event stopped being about the membership a long time ago. They had a Ferris wheel lol!

[Jim Heffelfinger]

This thread already exists ....scroll down a bit and add your thoughts.

[Mattmutz2]

This thread already exists ....scroll down a bit and add your thoughts.

Sorry, I didn't see it. I will.

[hkyplr18]

Very interesting...

[Bob Meder]

As someone that has to deal with extremely large numbers of shipments and events surrounding those shipments in my daily job (one table I work with is about one billion rows), I'm interested, Matt, in how you'd find or define what I call "ground truth". Let me take one simple example of a person that has a weekly pass that commutes to the North 40 a couple of times in a day, a not uncommon thing. If turnstyles, like those used at ball parks and other events, are installed, then that individual will be double counted. Also, there would probably be pretty severe bottle necks at the gates.

I suppose that RF technology could be used to try to figure out the "real" one-time number that people pass through any of the gates during a given day by adding a chip to the wristbands, but I'm sure folks, even if they were assured that the ID isn't associated with a name, wouldn't be crazy about that. Not to mention the expense of doing so.

Further, from a business perspective, I don't see a real problem with counting what I'll call "wrist band days". In fact, I'm not sure how else you'd want to do it, since you have to get to a common denominator. To illustrate what I'm saying, my company could either count the number of individual rail cars that we run over our lines, or we could count something far more meaningful, the number of shipments we handle in a year.

Finally, yes, I call it a convention, too. Personally, I like the term "fly-in" better, because that's what I'd heard it called even before I became a pilot, way back when I was volunteering at a railroad museum in Union, IL. But both terms have a problem - they imply an exclusivity. A convention is typically for members and invited guests; a fly-in means that, well, you have to fly in. We, the aviation community, have to embrace everyone that's interested, members and non-members, pilots, and non-pilots, builders and non-builders, and so on. Like it or not, there are larger forces outside of our relatively small universe that are working against us, some consciously (there really are people that hate general aviation), and some that are just there (e.g. the economy). Simply put, the numbers have been going the wrong way - we need to be sure we don't inadvertently give the general public that they're not part of us.

[steveinindy]

I am EAA #715837

You also have a major ax to grind with the EAA as if I recall correctly, you got canned by them. Not saying that your points aren't valid (I agree that they are kind of fuzzy numbers but that's the imprecise nature of crowd statistics for you...if we did it in a way that would give a more precise number, people would be whining about that too) but people need to realize the lens through which you filter your opinions.

[Mattmutz2]

You also have a major ax to grind with the EAA as if I recall correctly, you got canned by them.

No, sir, I think I turned in my notice on February 5, 2008 (give or take a day or two). I left on my own will. And I have no ax to grind, I am just a member of the community with a very unique perspective on how that place operates from the inside.

[RV8505]

No, sir, I think I turned in my notice on February 5, 2008 (give or take a day or two). I left on my own will. And I have no ax to grind, I am just a member of the community with a very unique perspective on how that place operates from the inside.

"I left on my own will" is code for "leave or get launched."

[Mattmutz2]

"I left on my own will" is code for "leave or get launched."

Most certainly not in my case. My departure came as a surprise to the then-director of IT. I was scheduled to be in an expensive training course starting the day I turned in my notice. Even with as many senseless decisions as she made, why would she have paid for the course and materials if I was being pushed out?

[mazdaP5]

EAA exploits the city of Oshkosh, WI, my hometown, and they lie to government so they get favors on roadwork, airport privileges, etc.



...While bringing in many, many millions of dollars to the local economy and tax revenues.

[RV8505]

Most certainly not in my case. My departure came as a surprise to the then-director of IT. I was scheduled to be in an expensive training course starting the day I turned in my notice. Even with as many senseless decisions as she made, why would she have paid for the course and materials if I was being pushed out?

Rightttt,............ I guess you just quit to save the EAA some Money.

[Mattmutz2]

RI guess you just quit to save the EAA some Money.

Ha - no. I think they still owe me the second half of my 2007 AirVenture bonus check. I left because it was a miserable environment under the mismanagement of the "Acting Director, Process and Technology"

[RV8505]

Ha - no. I think they still owe me the second half of my 2007 AirVenture bonus check. I left because it was a miserable environment under the mismanagement of the "Acting Director, Process and Technology"

Maybe it could be that they didn't think you deserved a bounus? Why give a bounus to someone who "Left on my own" Just saying.

[Zack Baughman]

This is starting to get out of hand folks. You are all welcome to comment about attendance observations, but arguing about someone's employment doesn't belong here.

Zack

[Mattmutz2]

arguing about someone's employment doesn't belong here.

I tend to agree, but if my credentials are going to be attacked or questioned, I'm willing to defend myself.

[Mattmutz2]

they didn't think you deserved a bounus?

lol, I'm quite sure they didn't! Seems now you are starting to understand from my point of view :D

[RV8505]

This is starting to get out of hand folks. You are all welcome to comment about attendance observations, but arguing about someone's employment doesn't belong here.

Zack

It does when a former EAA employee is spouting claims false or otherwise. How he served as a employee has alot of bearing on his claims. You work there, are his claims valid or not? I havn't haven't seen any disputes from any moderators on this board to his claims.

[Hal Bryan]

Obviously, we're not going to make any comment whatsoever about the behavior or performance of a former employee, or the circumstances surrounding their departure. As for any allegations that key members of management are or were huddled in a room somewhere inventing numbers to report, I can't see how that even merits a response.

As Zack noted, this thread is dangerously close to becoming a personal dispute, and, besides, it's already gone way off topic - it's now closed.